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151 replies

tall and fall vs. drop and drive

CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
quote:
Originally posted by Linear:
Not talking about forward. Look how far Pedro's head moves to the left. There is a reason for that. A solid reason, having to do with throwing hard with control. Yet, many many coaches will tell a kid not to do that.


WE AGREE! IF YOU DON'T ROTATE THAT HEAD, THEN THE ARM WILL HAVE TO CHANGE SLOTS MOMENTARILY TO ADJUST. I think this is where some people get into trouble when a pitcher mentions that they are having significant "stiffness" in the shoulder area. Note, this isn't just a rotator cuff problem. BTW, I was just having fun with my previous post. Note the LOL!

BBSCOUT, point well taken!
Last edited by CoachB25
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bbscout:
quote:
Originally posted by Linear:
Speaking of the head, another cause of kids not throwing to their potential is the cue "keep you head still".

Look what Pedros head does as he throws. Look at Priors. IF you are rotational your head will "move out of the way" as your posture changes. The arm can then be whipped through. Prior's head is almost completely still. Not efficient rotation. Very linear.

If most high level pitching instructors were on trial accused of being pitching instructors, slo mo, frame by frame video would show they couldn't be convicted. Their teaching doesn't match the video.
------------------------------------------------

Although I don't care for Prior's delivery, I am not going to watch Richard steer everyone in one direction due to his beliefs. At the age of 24 fter 4 full seasons in the big leagues, here are the stats for Pedro and Prior.


Pedro, 48-30, IP-661, ERA-3.47, W-238, K's-655

Prior, 41-23, IP-613, ERA-3.24, W-195, K's-719


They arrived in the big leagues at the same age, and through their first 4 seasons were similar, with an edge to Prior. Prior has less walks and more K's......does that make his delivery better........no, but what it shows is that using Prior as fodder is not proof of anything other than the two guys have different deliveries.


The arrival of the establishment.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Just out of curiousity, in those clips is Pedro throwing out of the windup and Prior out of the stretch?

I like looking at clips of top pitchers. You will see very similair things and you will see differences.

Roger Clemens and Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson are three of the best in our era. Does anyone have clips that compare their deliveries?

If we are talking about the hardest throwers... does anyone have clips comparing the hardest throwers... Will they be identical? Does Bobby Jenks and Billy Wagner have the same delivery and mechanics as Nolan Ryan?

And how do we know for sure which delivery is the best? Do we base it on who has been statistically the best? Most wins? Most strikouts? Best ERA? Least walks? Longest career? Most Cy Young's? Or do we base it on opinion?

Comparing the delivery of Pedro and Prior is interesting. It shows me that both ways will work. They can both throw mid 90s or better. They both have good stuff and good command. They've both have had arm injuries! Yet they do a few things differently.

Is it possible to talk about hitting or pitching without everything being labeled rotational or Linear?
P PitchDad0810+ posts
Linear, I have studied some of the info on the pitching-mechanics.org site. Are you an owner there? I'm not trying to start a fight but I would be surprised if you are. The advice given there seems to be presented mostly in a reasonable tone. I've read through some of your replies here and it's hard to take you seriously. If you are not the owner of the other site maybe you should ask them if it's okay for you to keep representing them.

Sorry if that offends anyone since I'm new but I'm just being honest. I'm enjoying reading all of the input. Even if opinions differ, I am learning from all of it. tater
Last edited by PitchDad08
L Linear500+ posts
Learn to separate your feelings from your search for knowledge.

I have not attacked anyone here. Some take it that way because their baseball beliefs are deeply held. When someone presents information that doesn't set well with their beliefs they take it personally.

bbscout felt the need to steer the group away from my beliefs in an earlier post. Could care less. Feelings weren't hurt. Neither should yours or anyones.

Just compare everything you read and see to video. That is where the truth is.
Last edited by Linear
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:...Is it possible to talk about hitting or pitching without everything being labeled rotational or Linear?


Sure it is.

But if you want to learn how a 5' 11" 170 lber throws as hard as a 6'5" 230 lber it probably is not.


Linear,

I respect your opinion as well as everyone else that deserves respect.

But regarding your comment above... You do know it depends greatly on who the 5-11/170 lber and the 6-5/230 lber is, don't you?

Or are you saying any 5-11/170 can do it provided they do it the right way? In other words... Natural ability is not as important as technique?

I would like to think you are aware that perfect technique doesn't guarantee 90+ mph velocity, but there are a lot of people who can throw 90+ without perfect technique. Also do you believe there is any advantage for pitchers who are bigger and stronger? And yes we have seen 5-11/170 throw better than 6-5/230, I think everyone has seen that. In fact Jeremy Hellickson is one that comes to mind. At about 5-11/170 - He is very much straight line - head and all - and throws mid 90s with excellent control and very little effort. He has a magical arm!
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Bkekcs,

Drop and drive – Bend the back knee, lowering yourself – push off the rubber – attack the plate at a more level plane. Tom Seaver was an example.

Tall and Fall – Stay upright (tall) weight back starting towards the plate – create a more downhill plane to the plate – stay closed - Now days most pitching coaches prefer Tall and Fall and it does usually create more rotation at delivery rather than forward body momentum. Tall and Fall tends to allow a pitcher better control of his body.

There have been many examples of both who pitched in the Major Leagues.

Personally, I have always taught a version closer to Tall and Fall. I’ve just never liked the word “Fall”. I don’t believe a pitcher should ever be Falling and should always have his body under control..

I’ve been very lucky in having coached some pitchers who made it to the Big Leagues. They did not make it there because of me! All were good but different in ability and technique.
Last edited by PGStaff
R raiderbb100+ posts
pitchdad08,
thanks for joining in on our discussions. most of us are on here to learn and share, not to claim that we have the "absolute truth". we are out there trying to get kids better. if you are looking for a good pitching only forum check out http://www.letstalkpitching.com and also the info on http://www.thecompletepitcher.com
i just recently discovered these and they are not the typical "guru i know the only way pitching or hitting website but you have to pay to get the info." theres no charge to join the forum and get the newsletter. very informative. but glad you are here.
Last edited by raiderbb
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Doug,

Thanks a lot for that clip of Maddux. That is a genuine classic!

I don't follow the pitching and hitting sites. Does anyone have clips of "great" pitchers that can be compared?

I'd like to think we can all learn something.

After reading all the posts on this thread, I think "Linear" is claiming the top pitchers use a combination of linear and rotational. If that is true, I for one agree with that! Nearly every great hitter and every great pitcher uses rotational technique to some degree. Hardly anyone evers argues about the benefits of rotational technique.

Problem is... most of the great hitters and pitchers incorporate linear and rotational mechanics to some extent.
L Linear500+ posts
Neither hitting nor pitching can be classified as only linear or only rotational. There are linear aspects of both. The hitter develops momentum by carrying his weight forward before he transfers this momentum into rotation. This could be considered a linear movement. Some call this the stride but it really isn't a stride. The stride is a result of carrying the mass forward. But, this linear momentum has to be converted into rotation. If linear movement continues during rotation you are not very efficient.

Likewise, pitchers develop momentum with a linear move of carrying the weight forward until the right moment and then they transfer that momentum into rotation. Carrying is much different than "pushing" or "driving with the calf". And, the right moment is the key. If you're pushing too soon you'll end up with inefficient rotation.

Everone likes to criticize the linear v rotational argument. Their favorite line is no one is completely linear nor completely rotational. They use it over and over again. Even though few argue with it. No one has made that point. The key is how to do each and how to blend one into the other. And in talking about that those naughtly words are sometimes used. And, just as soon as those words are used the know-nothings cry foul. They fail to dig deeper and understand how the body uses each to create power.
Last edited by Linear
WalesWales1,000+ posts
Just somethings I've noticed while reading this thread, might make people realise a thing or two. Please keep in mind that these are just how I've interperted the info here.

Essentially from what I'm understanding is y'all are trying to group pitchers into one of two catergories...What about guys who don't classify into either one? What about the guy who does a combination of the two. As PGStaff mentioned above.

This next question might be hard to answer, but anyway... What's the rough percentage of pitchers that are Drop 'n' Drive compared to Tall and Fall?


The questions brought up by PGStaff are great questions that really need to be answered, because I'm willing to bet that what one person views as successful is not the same as another persons, in its enterity.

As mentioned in the start of this thread;

"i have my theory but im not going to tell anybody else they are wrong - you see both being successful"

JMHO I think you guys are starting to get away from that.


It's funny ya know how adults who are firmly solid in their philisophies can get so rattled once you start to ask questions or disect their belief, and the next thing you know you're on the verge of a 'school yard fight over my dad can beat up your dad' type deal.

Just some food for thought
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
...I would like to think you are aware that perfect technique doesn't guarantee 90+ mph velocity, but there are a lot of people who can throw 90+ without perfect technique.


So, you don't think something can be learned about throwing power by studying the little guys who out do the big guys? I guarantee you the little guy who throws 90+ isn't doing too much wrong.

quote:
Also do you believe there is any advantage for pitchers who are bigger and stronger?


Of course there is an advantage. The numbers tell you that. Again, that is a good reason to study the small guys who can hit 90+ to learn where throwing power comes from. Studying a big guy may teach you nothing. Other than he is big and strong.

quote:
In fact Jeremy Hellickson is one that comes to mind. At about 5-11/170 - He is very much straight line - head and all - and throws mid 90s with excellent control and very little effort. He has a magical arm!


Please post a clip. Would love to be shown a 5' 11"/170 lber who throws mid 90's and does it without very efficient rotation.
Last edited by Linear
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
Doc K,

IMO - Read the posts carefully. You will see virtually noone states what the "best" way is to throw a baseball.

Reality will also clearly show you that there are many different varieties - some very successful and some not so successful.
Just like hitting a baseball.

But here is the main point - Can you imagine criticizing the mechanics of Tom Seaver?
Or Steve Carlton? Etc...

A reasonable person would understand how truly ridiculous that is.

You should read MacBeth. Many tales told - and many a marketing pitch - are "tales - full of sound and fury - signifying nothing".

Read carefully son.

Good luck.

Wink
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Linear,

In the interest of accuracy...

I am a big believer that there is always something to learn from both the little and the big guys. Sometimes we get so caught up in trying to teach something we forget that we can still learn something.

Regarding Hellickson... I never said he didn't have efficient rotation. I said he is very much straight line, head and all, and throws with very little effort.

If your point is that he rotates to throw... yes he does! The one thing that some people overlook about pitching is the fact that some arms are just naturally much faster than others.

I agree with your thoughts regarding the importance of efficient mechanics. It's just that IMO perfect mechanics don't make up for lack of talent. Extreme talent very often makes up for imperfect mechanics.

I'll check with Skillshow and see if they can get me a clip of Hellickson. He is a very interesting pitcher to study.
L Linear500+ posts
I see the mouth pieces have arrived. Posters who offer nothing to the conversation. They feel threatened by the fact that what they know isn't truth.

But, speaking of Seaver, who unlike the charge, has not ben criticized, here is a clip.

Please show me the "drive" part of his delivery.



If there was drive, driven by the legs, wouldn't the rear leg straighten? His leg never straightens until well after release.

You see that rear knee turn down and in? How does it do that? If he were "driving" wouldn't that leg straighten out? CLUE: It ain't coming from the legs.

No one has criticized Seaver. But, there is plenty of room to criticize those who claim he dropped and drove.
Last edited by Linear
WalesWales1,000+ posts
I guess I must be one of your mouth pieces... that's good to know.

All I did was bring up some points and ask some questions, cause I'm actually (READY FOR THIS CONCEPT), trying to learn what y'all are talking about. My bad for it 'offer nothing to the conversation. They feel threatened by the fact that what they know isn't truth.'

But hey whatever, if you don't want guys asking questions or bringing points up I'll just keep my mouthshut, and stick to what I've been taught whether it be misguided or not.

So much for this site being all about helping players.
B bbscout1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Linear:
I see the mouth pieces have arrived. Posters who offer nothing to the conversation. They feel threatened by the fact that what they know isn't truth.

But, speaking of Seaver, who unlike the charge, has not ben criticized, here is a clip.

Please show me the "drive" part of his delivery.



If there was drive, driven by the legs, wouldn't the rear leg straighten? His leg never straightens until well after release.

You see that rear knee turn down and in? How does it do that? If he were "driving" wouldn't that leg straighten out? CLUE: It ain't coming from the legs.

No one has criticized Seaver. But, there is plenty of room to criticize those who claim he dropped and drove.



Teacherman, Did you check the clip of Maddux and then watch the action of his back leg? Check the leg in frame 72 and then again in frame 83.What type of action would you call that?
Last edited by bbscout
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
Doc K,

Heres the first part of the history.

Linear has about 20 ids on this site.

And a long long history of blather, answering questions with questions, and insults IMO.

When in doubt - he throws up a video clip - and blathers some more.

The he criticizes all high school and college coaches - professional scouts - Hall of Fame players - HSBBWebsters and anyone else that calls his bluff.

That is the History - Part 1 - LOL
Last edited by itsinthegame
B bbscout1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Linear:
quote:
Originally posted by bbscout:

Teacherman, Did you check the clip of Maddux and then watch the action of his back leg? Check the leg in frame 72 and then again in frame 83.What type of action would you call that?


We must not be counting the frames right. I see little relevance in 72 and 83.


What I was getting at is the bend in his back leg at frame 72 and then the push off and near straightening of the back leg at frame 83 along with his back foot being about 12-14 inches in front of the rubber and he has not yet released the ball. What would you that action?
B bbscout1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Linear:
Scout

By my frame count 72 he's straight up an down over his post leg. Not a lot of differnce in 83 although he's starting to go.


I would ask that you click ahead until Maddux has the most bend in his back leg and then click ahead again until the leg is almost straight and then check how far his rear foot is in front of the rubber. Then you could give your opinion of what that action is.
Last edited by bbscout
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
Doc K,

Here is a little more history (part 2) for you.

We have lots of folks on this site.
It is the best site for the young player and his family in the USA - IMO.

We have Professional Scouts.
We have high school and college coaches.
We have Moms and Dads of professional and college players - at all levels.
We have the leaders of Major Showcases - and the best Scouting organizations in the USA - who have spent their entire lives in the game.

We have folks who have experienced various surgeries resulting from athletics - and their moms and dads.

They are all - IMO - known quantities. They speak from experience and genorosity of heart.

Once in a while - we get folks who use a multitude of ids - hide their identity - and do nothing but criticize and insult all of the people above.
Every one of them.

You think about that - read carefully - stay out of the fray (LOL - I cant do that - Im sorry) - and decide for yourself.

It is a good life lesson as well IMO.

Wink
Last edited by itsinthegame
MN-MomMN-MomHSBaseballWeb Owner
Linear / rShard / Teacherman / ozzir,

You have demonstrated repeatedly that you are not willing to contribute to a discussion or debate without issuing blanket condemnations of everyone who isn't ... well, it seems like it's everyone who isn't YOU, but I realize that would be a slight exaggeration.

There are some very credible members who have posted in this thread, and there are also some very credible people who post in the other site you have mentioned, pitching-mechanics.org. I know and greatly respect several of them - Robert Stock's dad; another dad, Steve R, who has provided TREMENDOUS help to my son; and yet another dad, Jason F, who is a fellow Minnesotan - all three are members here also. I think that you would be supportive of information posted by those members, but I am sure that you do not represent them. Actually I think you are doing a disservice to the other site that you profess to support.

Everyone is welcome to post differing opinions and even to argue a point, but your frequent insults are not welcome here, and not appropriate. Last chance to check the Board Manners and follow the rules.
L Linear500+ posts
That action is not drop and drive if that is what you are insinuating.

Drop and drive is while over your post leg you sit, bend the knee, then drive forward.

Maddux does not do this.

He is very good at carrying his mass forward, a much longer distance than most, by having a fast tempo, which extends his rear leg prior to rotation. No one else does it quite like this. At least, I've not seen any. He maintains the load in the rear hip much longer than most and then, when he's "shortened" the throwing distance by his forward momentum, he rotates.

Simply put, he's able to maintain the load much longer than most. His leg extends only because it has to, not because he's pushing. The roational push, if any, is way later in his delivery than most.

Another thing you don't see much of is he throws without straightening the front leg. Most straighten at or near release. I think he gets so far forward that he can't.
Last edited by Linear
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