tall and fall vs. drop and drive

I think you described some of it very well, but not all.

Not all people consider drop and drive, sit, bend your knee and then drive forward. In fact, I don't ever remember seeing a pitcher do that while over his post leg just bend his knee, sit and then drive. I have seen pitchers like Maddux and Seaver who bend their back leg and then push off called drop and drive. The pitchers who have quite a lot of back knee bend are, in many cases called drop and drivers. I don't agree with that, as I mentioned, I have never scouted a guy who just sat,bent his knee and drove, but I have scouted hundreds who in the course of their delivery bend their back knee and push off the rubber.

You call it carrying his mass forward, but I think that is playing with words, because you probably don't like the term "pushing off". When you push off real well like Greg, your leg will extend.

Get more clips from the side, and you will see many have similar actions to Maddux. The problem is that the TV shots that you have the most of are from behind the center field wall and you don't have the chance to see everything. It puts you in a position of only seeing what you want to see.

"You forgot lamber." That was funny!

Funny how it has went full circle - in just about 3 years.

There you have it - you dont really see what you think you see.

Sort of like a boomerang - wouldnt you agree lamber? - I mean teacherman - I mean linear - I mean rshard - I mean ozzir.

Boomerang hit you right in the head.




P.S. Buy some more video recorders and work on the angle thing.

At the risk of upsetting some nice people.

I for one, sometimes enjoy your input. At times you cause some interesting discussions. It's obvious you've spent a lot of time studying certain aspects of the game. You definitely have much to add to some of these discussions. I don't really care if you use one name or 20 names.

What I can't understand is why you enjoy pissing people off so much. I hope you figure it out because most of what you post is interesting and entertaining. Then there's the rest of what you post which is unnecessary and stupid!

Please figure it out. I like to talk about baseball with you up until you pull the Jekyl and Hyde stuff. If you get kicked off some will miss you and others will celebrate.

Guessing you're really not interested in making anyone happy... are you?

I believe Tom Seaver himself described his delivery as "Drop and Drive"!

I'm not saying there is no push. I'm saying most carry their weight forward while maintaining a load in the hip. Then they push. As compared to pushing from the beginning to move forward.

It is almost impossible to maintain a load while pushing. It is quite easy to maintain it while carrying the momentum.

What I think you miss is when the push occurs. IMHO Maddux's leg doesn't straighten because of a push. It straigthens because he carrys farther than most....then pushes.

PG,

I agree with you.

The guy posts some good stuff - and some bad stuff. But that is OK.

What isnt OK - and what has never been OK - is when he does the Freddie Krueger thing.

I also think that the soft landing you talk about is not indicative of a strong push off the rubber. Strong push = hard landing. Push and crash.

Carry the mass = soft landing.

And, carrying the mass is not a play on words. There is a huge difference between momentum carrying the mass and pushing.

Seaver pushed.

Seaver did not "carry his mass"

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:
I'm not saying there is no push. I'm saying most carry their weight forward while maintaining a load in the hip. Then they push. As compared to pushing from the beginning to move forward.

It is almost impossible to maintain a load while pusing. It is quite easy to maintain it while carrying the momentum.

What I think you miss is when the push occurs. IMHO Maddux's leg doesn't straighten because of a push. It straigthens because he carrys farther than most....then pushes.

The leg starts pushing when it gets to the position where it is bent the most.It then starts pushing, and after it straightens, there is nothing left to push with. Why do you think Maddux' back foot is about 12-15 inches in front of the rubber before he is even close to releasing the ball?

The carry that you talk about is the old tall and fall that Bob Shaw taught years ago, that he learned from Red Adams.

Prior crashes on to his left heel, because he was taught the tall and fall by House. If he pushed properly, he would then have a chance to land nice and smooth on his front foot like Maddux and Pedro.

You wanted to have the 6' 170 as a model. Maddux in high school was 5'11" and weighed 155 lbs. He threw 92-95 and painted.

Maddux's foot is 12-15" forward because of his momentum and tempo.

What about the soft landing? Do you really think you can push hard, real hard, to move yourself 15" forward, and still land soft? And still have a load from which to rotate?

Not possible.



I've never seen anyone push with a bend in his leg. There is an L in the leg until after release. However, he may be rotating against that bent leg lever.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:

...You wanted to have the 6' 170 as a model. Maddux in high school was 5'11" and weighed 155 lbs. He threw 92-95 and painted.

Fine.

He's a good example of a guy who carrys his mass a long ways, lands softly, and rotates like hell at the end.

Impossible to maintain the load til the end if you're pushing linearly too soon.

Do you think it is possible that - even without a "max load" - the individuals god given ability in his upper body can produce superior results?

Have you ever considered that?

As for not ever seeing anyone push with a bend in his leg - you just arent looking well enough IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:
Maddux's foot is 12-15" forward because of his momentum and tempo.

What about the soft landing? Do you really think you can push hard, real hard, to move yourself 15" forward, and still land soft? And still have a load from which to rotate?

Not possible.



I've never seen anyone push with a bend in his leg. There is an L in the leg until after release. However, he may be rotating against that bent leg lever.

Did you check frame 91 and 101. It is a bend in the leg that moves to almost straight, and the ball has not been released. You can call it an L or a bend or whatever you want, but his goes from bent to straight because he pushed off.

Another look.



I would like to clarify my position. We started down this path when someone said there is a push with the legs to throw. I maintain the throw is generated from the center. A hip movement stabilized by the legs. The legs do not initiate rotation.

How do these guys rear knees turn down and in if they are pushing when you say they are? That is the hip moving the knee. Not the other way around.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:

...You wanted to have the 6' 170 as a model. Maddux in high school was 5'11" and weighed 155 lbs. He threw 92-95 and painted.

Fine.

He's a good example of a guy who carrys his mass a long ways, lands softly, and rotates like hell at the end.

Impossible to maintain the load til the end if you're pushing linearly too soon.

Who says anything about Greg Maddux pushing to soon? He pushes right on time.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:




I've never seen anyone push with a bend in his leg. There is an L in the leg until after release. However, he may be rotating against that bent leg lever.

An "L" in the leg - but no push?

Rotating against "the bent leg lever"?

You picked the wrong pitcher for the video IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
...but his goes from bent to straight because he pushed off.

If that was true he'd have no load left from which to rotate. He goes from bent to straight because his mass moves so far that his leg has to straighten to support it.

He uses a full windup. What do you call it? A running start I believe. He does that, picks up the lead leg, tilts back to lead with the hip and covers a lot of ground without pushing up to this point. His momentum carrys him forward while maintaining his load.

You would help yourself immensely if you learned the concept of carrying your mass. It happens in both pitching and hitting.

Nope.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

You would help yourself immensely if you learned the concept of carrying your mass. It happens in both pitching and hitting.

Is "carrying your mass" the new lingo?

Now hitting - no legs - just a center.
Like your previous "No hands - no wrists" theory from a few months ago.

Just carry the mass and rotate - and then get released from your contract.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
...but his goes from bent to straight because he pushed off.

If that was true he'd have no load left from which to rotate. He goes from bent to straight because his mass moves so far that his leg has to straighten to support it.

He uses a full windup. What do you call it? A running start I believe. He does that, picks up the lead leg, tilts back to lead with the hip and covers a lot of ground without pushing up to this point.

You are having trouble getting my quotes straight. I call a running start a motion where the arm starts and does not ever stop until the ball has been thrown. It has nothing to do with pushing off.

At the point where his back leg is almost straight, he has already completed about 95% of his rotation. I think you need to check the clip again.

Linear:

“Fairy tale” as in happy endings that average players had advancing to find out what they learned in youth and high school ball turned out to be the “truth” when they arrived in college and/or professional baseball?

“fairy tales” like multiple make believe screen names and phantom ex players you have taught and guided?

“The whole truth” or just the part you want taught and in the language you want it taught?

THop

It seems pretty obvious to me.

Almost all of the rotation is complete and the back leg is almost straight.

And the Seaver clip - from behind - is very deceiving.

IMO - Two examples - both bad for the "carry the mass" argument.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
...I call a running start a motion where the arm starts and does not ever stop until the ball has been thrown. It has nothing to do with pushing off.

I don't associate the running start with pushing off. In fact, quite the opposite. His full windup, arms over the head, lift the leg, tilt, etc. creates momentum and a faster tempo which carrys him farther over a short period of time. As he travels this distance he is carrying his mass and loading so that he can unload everything all at once.

Another indicator that there isn't much push to cause this 15" distance you talk about is his ability to unload. The load/unload is a rapid movement. Whether hitting or pitching it is rapid without delay. The load turns into unload. There is no load, wait, unload. Therefore, it doesn't take place over much distance. If he's pushing from the start as you suggest his load/unload would be very slow. Done over too much distance which would not allow him to throw that hard.

quote:

At the point where his back leg is almost straight, he has already completed about 95% of his rotation....

Which is true with almost every pitcher. Like I said the load/unload is instantaneous. Very quick. Lightning fast. That is not at all inconsistent with carrying the mass and the loading/unloading.

Sorry man, you have gone away from the video that you were preaching about being so important and now are just giving your theories that you have picked up on the internet.

You keep carrying your mass and I will continue to show people clips of Maddux.

Seaver was known to drag his post knee as he threw. Not many, if any others, in my life time have done this.

Get out of your chair and get into position to throw, push like hell with your foot to where you drag your knee and throw. You can't generate much.

Next, try to carry your weight while loading and unload with your hips to rotate such that your knee drops. Easily done and with power.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

Which is true with almost every pitcher. Like I said the load/unload is instantaneous. Very quick. Lightning fast. That is not at all inconsistent with carrying the mass and the loading/unloading.

Noone said it was inconsistent with "carrying the mass". You just created that.

However, YOU did say that "push" was inconsistent with max loading/unloading.

You also did not answer the question about the other parts of the body - particularly the upper body - and surprise - THE ARM.

You dont seem to be getting this - do you?

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Sorry man, you have gone away from the video that you were preaching about...

Disgree. I believe everything I've said is supported by video. Example please.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

Get out of your chair and get into position to throw, push like hell with your foot to where you drag your knee and throw. You can't generate much.

Seaver did. And I sure as heck wish I could have too.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

Which is true with almost every pitcher. Like I said the load/unload is instantaneous. Very quick. Lightning fast. That is not at all inconsistent with carrying the mass and the loading/unloading.

Noone said it was inconsistent with "carrying the mass". You just created that.

...

The statement was in context to the bbscouts quote. His statement was...95% of rotation being completed by the time the leg is straight... is not at all inconsistent with carrying the mass and unloading. In other words, he's claiming there has to be a push because 95% of the rotation is complete by the time the leg is straight. Such is true if you carry your mass also. Therefore his point has no merit.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Sorry man, you have gone away from the video that you were preaching about...

Disgree. I believe everything I've said is supported by video. Example please.

This may shock you - but your belief, quite possibly, could be wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

Which is true with almost every pitcher. Like I said the load/unload is instantaneous. Very quick. Lightning fast. That is not at all inconsistent with carrying the mass and the loading/unloading.

Noone said it was inconsistent with "carrying the mass". You just created that.

...

The statement was in context to the bbscouts quote. His statement was...95% of rotation being completed by the time the leg is straight... is not at all inconsistent with carrying the mass and unloading. In other words, he's claiming there has to be a push because 95% of the rotation is complete by the time the leg is straight. Such is true if you carry your mass also. Therefore his point has no merit.

I thought you said the leg did not straighten????

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:
I see the mouth pieces have arrived. Posters who offer nothing to the conversation. They feel threatened by the fact that what they know isn't truth.

But, speaking of Seaver, who unlike the charge, has not ben criticized, here is a clip.

Please show me the "drive" part of his delivery.



If there was drive, driven by the legs, wouldn't the rear leg straighten? His leg never straightens until well after release.

You see that rear knee turn down and in? How does it do that? If he were "driving" wouldn't that leg straighten out? CLUE: It ain't coming from the legs.

No one has criticized Seaver. But, there is plenty of room to criticize those who claim he dropped and drove.

If Maddux was driving, would his leg not straighten???? It did.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
...You also did not answer the question about the other parts of the body - particularly the upper body - and surprise - THE ARM...

This thread has from it's beginning been about the lower body and the "push" or how rotation is created.

If you wish to change the subject to the arm, I'd be happy to. Probably should be in a different thread.

But, most like to change the subject when things aren't going their way. Is it the video?

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Sorry man, you have gone away from the video that you were preaching about...

Disgree. I believe everything I've said is supported by video. Example please.

I gave the example in the post above this one.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
...If Maddux was driving, would his leg not straighten???? It did.

Yes it would.

And it would also if he's carrying his mass to the extent that he does by way of the momentum he has created.

Proves nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

The statement was in context to the bbscouts quote. His statement was...95% of rotation being completed by the time the leg is straight... is not at all inconsistent with carrying the mass and unloading. In other words, he's claiming there has to be a push because 95% of the rotation is complete by the time the leg is straight. Such is true if you carry your mass also. Therefore his point has no merit.

No - his statement was his statement.

The "In other words" portion of your paragraph is a no sale. Those are your words - not his.

He didnt write that.

As for his point not having merit - I do not follow the logical sequence you just laid out - given that half of the sequence is based on "In other words" and they happen to be yours.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
...You also did not answer the question about the other parts of the body - particularly the upper body - and surprise - THE ARM...

This thread has from it's beginning been about the lower body and the "push" or how rotation is created.

If you wish to change the subject to the arm, I'd be happy to. Probably should be in a different thread.

But, most like to change the subject when things aren't going their way. Is it the video?

You are the one who brought up the running start, which is the arms. Its did not bring it up, you did!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:

...You are the one who brought up the running start, which is the arms. Its did not bring it up, you did!!!!!

Read again. I brought up running start in relation to my interpretation of your full windup comments in the past. The momentum created by that type of windup. If I misinterpreted your "running start" so be it. But, my comments had nothing to do with the arm.

BTW, I will look for your past comments about running start and how it has to do with the full windup over the head etc etc. Which is directly involved with momentum.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
...You also did not answer the question about the other parts of the body - particularly the upper body - and surprise - THE ARM...

This thread has from it's beginning been about the lower body and the "push" or how rotation is created.

If you wish to change the subject to the arm, I'd be happy to. Probably should be in a different thread.

But, most like to change the subject when things aren't going their way. Is it the video?

No - the question was related directly to the lower body portion of your beliefs.

Again - do you think it is possible to have great success - even "with out MAX load/unload" - as a result of other strengths you have in the upper body and arm?

Is it possible or not?