Team Loyalties (or lack of)

Good question Fungo, one that will I'm sure, present a myriad of answers and inspire some good thoughts.

To me, it begins with community and ends with mercenary.

If it is a team somehow representing your community, or something bigger than yourself, then probably.

However, in todays era of big money lessons, big expenditure travel, I think at that level it becomes mercenary. What does the team really represent? It doesn't have to be "look at me", it could be nothing more than, "I'm going to do what's best for me". And is that really a bad thing for someone to want to improve themselves or their situation? It doesn't go as far as to justify poor behavior or lack of values, but there's nothing wrong with a hearty handshake, a thanks for the memories, and I need to move on. It's simply reaching for the stars.

Fungo,
Excellant question. Unless you are playing for your LL, HS, or college, there is very little loyalty. When you pay to play on a team with all of the expenses and time involved you need to ask the question is it worth it? Am I having fun? Am I getting better? Could I start on that other team? Is my coach nuts? These questions are asked unless your family is an only child with unlimited talent and resources IMO.

But on the flip side, this also brings a blessing to baseball. I don't know the numbers, but I would be willing to bet that more kids 13 and up are playing baseball than they were 10-15 years ago because of the sheer amount of travel teams. Rec leagues are growing also. The amount of coaches that were abusive and political can't get away with as much because of the competition. If you are nutso, the kids can leave and still play the game they love. Its no longer a one team show.

There is good and bad in todays baseball, but I think that baseball's increased attendance, income and all around good numbers is enhanced by the amount of kids playing the game. And that is in direct response to the increased amount of teams.

And that leads to the lack of loyalty. A vicious circle indeed.

Travel Team coaches move players around as much the players . Good example a team going to PG in jupiter basicially replaced most of his team with players that were already playing for other teams this past fall and summer. The team went 1-3

There are no loyalties in the sport any more---just look at the MLB situations---it is all about "where can I get a better deal?"

I don't think there are right or wrong answers to these questions.

In our case, loyalty won out. My son would get calls over the winter asking him to switch and he asked me for my two cents - his inclination was to switch btw. Since he asked me, I brought up the fact that he was more than happy to play with the older guys when he was coming up and now the coach needed him for experience and leadership. I told him to return something to that coach for the opportunity he gave him. I left the decision with him however. He could have upgraded but not enough to make up for the other things he learned by staying imho.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
There are no loyalties in the sport any more---just look at the MLB situations---it is all about "where can I get a better deal?"

TR - my son and I have had many conversations about this over the last few years. In HS, he chose to stay and play with his HS team in the summer and fall rather than several other travel teams that were options - including a couple of high profile teams. When you look at MLB players that appear to choose the highest bidder over any type of loyalty to their team, it's difficult for me to understand. How much money does it take to live comfortably? Is that additional million make you feel more empowered or worthy? I've never been a pro player and my son hasn't neither. I'm sure there are circumstances that we can't understand at that level. I'm sure many would question the loyalty of an organization to a player too. I agree with you though - that mentality seems to trickle all the way down. I suppose that loyalty is really in the eye of the beholder, but it appears to be lacking on many levels IMO.

Isn't it Chipper Jones that's given up some of his salary a couple of times so the Braves would have more bargaining power?

Can't say that I blame the players ... When they came up through a system that will trade or release you in a heart beat.
There is no loyalty in the MLB.

Frank Martin is actually right. Summer teams have been recruiting, sitting and cutting players for years. Talent, like water, seeks its own level.

Ohio Yankees 18u

Summer of..........

2005
2006
2007

Great program, good exposure, great instruction.

Were opps passed by? YES

Any regrets? NO

We had to make this choice at the end of this past season for my child. We decided to ask the team that she had played for to meet us half way. To make a long story short, they weren't prepared to do so and we understood. We hope that they understand our decision.

First, hats off to Mike Lowell, who took three years and 37M to stay with the Red Sox rather than four years at 50M to play elsewhere. He took the hometown discount to play and live in an area he loves (If he lasts four years he probably won't get 13M).

Now regarding travel team loyalties. I've seen travel teams pick up new players in midseason and cut players or send them to the bench. My favorite ploy is a local coach who "deactivates" a certain number of players each weekend after he gets his roster to fourteen. A dad told me his son figured it out. In week three he said, "Dad, I'm not inactive. I've been cut." If the team doesn't have loyalty, how can the player?

My answers to Fungo's questions are: 1) Kids should be loyal to teams, but teams also should be loyal to kids. I don't like to see kids leave mid-season for what they perceive as greener pastures, but there are exceptions to this. 2)My experiences so far do not lead me to believe that a showcase mentality has hurt youth baseball.

There are other cases besides better talent and more exposure that cause a kid/family to reevaluate their commitment:

1. Clear cases of 'daddyball'. I've seen this happen at all age levels, even high school.
2. Another player is actually better at the kids chosen position, reducing his opportunity to develop, and
3. Sometimes a kid needs to play another position for the benefit of the team.

Each of these may cause a reevaluation of where a kid fits on a particular team. The decisions we've made as a family have always been after the season has ended. I don’t view this as being disloyal. During the season? Maybe.

Sometimes kids need to cut bait and go play for another team to realize their potential OR to realize that they really don't have what it takes to play their chosen position. In the end, we whould expect commitment and honesty from all parties involved. I have specific situations that I'd be glad to share in future posts that have led me to these opinions.

If a kid/family takes an opportunity to play for a team in what they perceive as a better situation for their goals, more power to them.

I beleive in loyalty as long as that loyalty is returned. My son was on a daddy ball team with an assistant coach that knew nothing about baseball. When my son (and some other players) sat on the bench in a tournament for inferior players that were brought from another team, we said "buh-bye." His next team was run by coaches that had no kids on the team and was selected via tryout. The difference was huge and a pleasure for my son who had a great time on that team.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
There are no loyalties in the sport any more---just look at the MLB situations---it is all about "where can I get a better deal?"

TR, you've gone too far with this one. There are a bunch of loyal players at every level, although admittedly less so at the MLB level. A few examples are Tony Gwynn and San Diego. Edgar Martinez and Seattle. Not everyone is motivated purely by the buck.

BUM

It seems that for you and many others I go too far too often---such is life !!!

A bunch of players is not the entire spectrum---Of course there will be players that are loyal---next you will tell me AROD is loyal to the Yankees--LOL---he is back because he found out nobody else could pay him what his agent wanted

When I was growing up you always new Horace Clarke and Roy White were going to be Yankees (unfortunately). What about Fritz Peterson and Mike Kekich swapping wifes. Now that's loyalty.
Since free agency it has never been the same. I'm not sure for better or worse.
There are a few that will never go anywhere. Derek Jeter, Bernie Williams, Jorge Posada, Mariano Rivera to name a few. What about Mike Lowell taking less to stay in Boston. He's happy and you can only spend so much.

bb


Can we call them "exceptions" ?

That was not a personal attack, TR. Geesh. Just a disagreement with your statement. Fungo, I believe if a kid committed to that team it should be for that season only--he should not change teams mid-season. After that, if he has other opportunities he should be free to explore them. But let the team know in plenty time to find other players.

To quote Tom Hicks

quote:

Like always in baseball, it's about the money.

Rangers Miss Out On Hunter

Fungo:

Great questions:

My son led his summer team last year in virtually every offensive catagory. He wanted to go back next summer. However, the team has a new GM and Coach. This will be the first head coaching stint for the new coach.

The coach indicated that he did not want my son back because he was a D3 player. He wanted to bring in kids (D1 players only) that he knew from his part of the country.

The question of loyalty goes both ways. This new coach is trying to move up the coaching ladder and wants a team the he believes will help.

Is there anything wrong with this, No. However, loyalty of kid is questioned rather quickly. It is a fact of life whether it is baseball or business. You recuit those that you know (or at least believe will be the safest to insure your success), whether they are the best or not.

It would have been easier for Hunter to go to Texas he lives there. It wasn't only about the money but the opportunity to win. When was the last time Texas even smelled first place?
The mid-level players may choose the money but the best usually want to win because they can get similar money anywhere. The exception Arod.

Some parents are always looking for the next team for their kids whether it be for exposure, playing time, whatever. Is it wrong? In my opinion, yes. Most kids just want to play it doesn't matter where as long as it is against the best available competition. That's how you get better.

When my oldest kid was 9 he played for his first travel ball team. It was quite an awakening for me when I learned that some kids would not be 'invited back' to play the following year. Some were his good friends. He stayed on the team.

After the following season he was recruited by a team that had won one of the 10U state championships. It also happened that one of the coaches of his current team was relocating and would not be on the team for the 11U season. This was the coach that took a special interest in my son and helped him improve tremendously. Although 3 of the 4 coaches were returning, my son - with family approval - opted for a more competitive playing environment.

ILVBB, your situation sounds interesting. I know your kid will find a better situation. After leading his team in offensive categories other coaches have certainly noticed. He won't have a problem. The last thing any kid or family would want is to play for a coach that doesn't believe in him.

It is interesting to me how kids are classified, quite early sometimes, as D1, D2, or D3. I know tools and athleticism have a lot to do with this.

Like has been said, loyalty goes both ways. All those loyal players would have gone elsewhere if they'd have been treated poorly and had an opportunity to play for someone who believed in them and treated them with respect. Now some never seem to be satisfied, but generally if a person is treated with respect and is a good fit you want to stay. I've seen kids who were poorly treated on one team go to a better team where the coach and players believed in the individuals and they played like allstars.
I say each situation is unique and we all need to decide what is best for the team AND our kids, we shouldn't judge someone else or tell folks what to do and think just because we're in a good situation.

We we were lucky. My son played for his first coach fo 4yrs (coach pitch to kid pitch). Then it was his decision to move on and I made him tell the coach he was leaving not me. I did help him find a new team but then again it was his decision to go there. After being watched in fall ball, the observing coach offered him a spot on the team no playing time just a chance. The coach even said take some time, think it over and get back to me. He accepted about 15mins. later. He knew he had to earn his way. Which luck would have it he did and he stayed there for 4yrs until HS.
The problem I have is when I see a kid with a new team every year. You have to wonder why. Is it an attitude problem or is it the parents. Usually I've found it's the parents. There are exceptions but not many. Sometimes it's about playing time and then you have to wonder if they are trying to play above their current level rather than playing somewhere and not sitting and getting better.
I used to help with some of the tryouts. Sometimes the kid would have made the team but the parents (mom or dad or both) were not acceptable. I think the coach approached it with more or less I don't think we're the right place for you and left it at that.

I can give you one that truly makes you think and this is a true story

I know of a player who played for Team A all summer and into the fall---no problem with playing time as he was a stud---come a certain tournament in the fall he tells his coach that he is playing with another team, Team B, in the tourney which in fact Team A was also playing in. Team B goes 0-3 in the event and the player comes back to Team A coach and asks where are we, Team A, playing next weekend--_AND COACH OF TEAM A TAKES HIM BACK

TR
Until I got to the end I assumed he was no longer wanted on that team. I can't believe they took him back.

bb


I can tell you that it would not have happened with us---that is a heck of a slap in the face to his teammates

quote:

Originally posted by bb1:
We we were lucky. My son played for his first coach fo 4yrs (coach pitch to kid pitch). Then it was his decision to move on and I made him tell the coach he was leaving not me. I did help him find a new team but then again it was his decision to go there. After being watched in fall ball, the observing coach offered him a spot on the team no playing time just a chance. The coach even said take some time, think it over and get back to me. He accepted about 15mins. later. He knew he had to earn his way. Which luck would have it he did and he stayed there for 4yrs until HS.
The problem I have is when I see a kid with a new team every year. You have to wonder why. Is it an attitude problem or is it the parents. Usually I've found it's the parents. There are exceptions but not many. Sometimes it's about playing time and then you have to wonder if they are trying to play above their current level rather than playing somewhere and not sitting and getting better.
I used to help with some of the tryouts. Sometimes the kid would have made the team but the parents (mom or dad or both) were not acceptable. I think the coach approached it with more or less I don't think we're the right place for you and left it at that.

There is an old saying, especially in the lower age groups...."you're not dealing with just the number of players on your roster, you're dealing with that number x2 the number of parents"

After son turned 13 he switched to a new team every year. Each year looking for a better team that would play tougher competition/games/tournaments, and that had better coaching.

Come to think of it, my earlier example has been the only time one of my kids have chosen to move from one competitive team to another. In all other instances where we've made a decision to move it has been from a less competitive environment (such as little league, aabc) to travel ball. IN all other instances, the team one of my kids were on disbannded.

We've opted, until recently for community baseball programs that were not very well established. But these local teams often seem to have a 'shelf life', disbanding after a year or two due to coaching pressures usually. In these community travel ball programs, a lot is put on the coach and they end up handling a lot of aspects of putting/keeping a ballclub together. (also often having a large hand in maintaining the field). More established programs don't have those types of issues.

In each case my kids have been able to find a better situation. More recently, we've opted for the larger and better established programs. The fields are harder to get to, but it has been worth it.

I agree with BillBill. Same for us. The longest we've been able to stay with a team is 2 years for any number of factors. We loved that team but everyone who held it together became exhausted by the work of keeping it up: finding a playing/practice field, putting together games and tournaments that satified parents, gripes about playing time for their kids, trying to collect funds--some of which never got paid, fundraising, loads of communication to keep everyone up to speed, ordering uniforms, blah blah blah.. It finally dissolved.

Since then, we've had some great experiences (but joined the team toward the end of it's shelf-life) and some horrible ones where we couldn't wait for the season to end. (Awful/devisive parents, kids with big attitude problems who hijack the team, excessive daddyball, etc.)

I much prefer my son to be on a team that is cohesive and positive and focused, with parents I enjoy (or can tolerate) spending lots of time with, and coaches who are knowledgeable and are strong leaders for our young men. This is our first year on a new team (again) and I am once again very excited and hopeful that we've found a group we can take a long ride with. I hate having to start over!

quote:

The coach indicated that he did not want my son back because he was a D3 player. He wanted to bring in kids (D1 players only)

amazing!!!! you would think that somehow d2 and d3 played different rules and the players had 2 heads or something. My son played d3. I saw a lot of games over 4 years. Believe it or not the game was baseball. 3 players in that time were drafted. Were the major league scouts brain dead?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
I can give you one that truly makes you think and this is a true story

I know of a player who played for Team A all summer and into the fall---no problem with playing time as he was a stud---come a certain tournament in the fall he tells his coach that he is playing with another team, Team B, in the tourney which in fact Team A was also playing in. Team B goes 0-3 in the event and the player comes back to Team A coach and asks where are we, Team A, playing next weekend--_AND COACH OF TEAM A TAKES HIM BACK

A perfect recipe to create a prima donna.

My favorite was when a mom came to me and told me her son would be out of town for some reason or another and wouldn't be able to play for us. A few days later the dad, who is a real straight shooter, mentioned that the kid would be playing for another team that weekend and that it was a great opportunity for him and that he'd still like to be able to play for us but that we were 2nd priority and he'd understand if we found someone else. I told the dad if we didn't have a player at that position we'd give them a call but our first priority would be to get a regular at that position and we were both fine with it. In this case, it wasn't the kid who was at fault.

In our last tournament we ran into a pay to play team that had 3 kids who left our program and had just added a couple studs who just snuck in under the new age limits, including their starting pitcher. We had one kid who had quit their team when the assistant coaches staged a coup and dumped the head coach. Our kids knocked them out of the tournament in the semis.

In our neck of the woods, we have had two teams playing in 19u tournaments. "The Other Guys" tried to recruit my son but I decided to go with a team I thought was a better fit. No slam on them, but we beat them four times to none during the season and our organization had 10 guys sign NLI's to their none. Good choice.

Loyalty is not a one way street...

Most everyone here knows that a team is made up of players that are "good enough" to help the team win. If a player shows an inability to to contribute on a consistent basis, we all know the probable outcome of the word loyalty.

In the real world there is a saying..."make money or make room".

In sports, it is not different at every level, and the saying is "you are only as good as your last game"

In sports loyalty is based upon one season at a time.

That loyalty is based upon personal achievement in conjuncton of how an organization provides an opportunity to excel and grow.

No growth and development for an individual that aspires to move up competitively always will creat6e a desire for the individual to find a better growth environment.

As money has become more a measure of an individuals value to a baseball organization the result has become that individual corruption has creeped into the game to perform at the highest level to win at all cost...and loyalty isn't part of that paradigm.
JMO

Fungo:

As usual VERY thought-provoking scenario. It appears from the comments being made by some that the level of play makes a difference.

It is true that there is very little loyalty in MLB either way. Tony Gwinn & Cal Ripken had personal relationships with ownership, city and tradition that kept them where they were all those years. But as TR suggests, they are exceptions.

Young travel teamers [prior to High School years] appear to change teams whenever they want. The plus side of the equation is if you are paying the money, you should not be criticized for moving on a whim if you wish. The down side is you have no coaching consistency and maybe not as much team chemistry. Also, I am wondering how many good and well intentioned college and/or pro scouts are really watching 11 and under travel team games?

I believe the high school years can be a real quandry for both well intentioned parents and players. I coached an American Legion team that both my sons played on in West Virginia. My assigned Legion area included 4 High Schools each of which had between 400 to 600 total students in grades 10-12. The first two years we had fairly competitive seasons, playing the best competition we could and staying a litle above .500. Before the start of the third year, the assistant coach of one of the high schools in my area decided to form his own Legion team that was to include only players on that high school team [he happened to be my sons' high school coach and he happened to have a son that played on the high school team]. He insisted that any of his high school players that were on our Legion team must leave and play for him. I released everyone attending that high school from our roster except my two sons. That year they were not very competitive and lost almost all their games. We were not quite as competitive as before and were slightly under .500 that year.

The very next year, the high school assistant coach could not get enough of his own players [other than his son and a few others] sufficiently interested in playing summer ball for him to make up a legion team. Those who deserted us at the insistence of their high school coaches that wanted to play were welcomed back to our legion team and we had our best year with a winning percentage over .600.

The point is, kids get confused by parents, high school coaches, hitting/pitching instructors, agents and others with ulterior motives. They sometimes decide a course of action that is not in their best interests. Let us all remember that before we take the rather harsh and one sided loyalty oath position that if you leave me and mine you are never coming back.

Your second question, Fungo, has not received the air time that the first one has. And it deserves better. I would say the answer is yes. I am not saying that it is necessarily a plan of action that is inevitable once you start the Showcase route. But I do believe that players and parents get caught up in the "my son/I must be watched by the best" attitude and that spills over from the showcase events to other decisions about who I play for and how much money do we spend. A snowball pushed from the top of the hill once it gains its own momentum eventually gets so big that it cannot be stopped until it hits level ground. [As we are undergoing our first snowfall this morning on the top of my mountain, I could not resist a seasonal analogy].

TW344

I believe that loyalty is important, but players need to have a game plan of what they wanna do to accomplish their dreams; which in this case would be next level baseball. They need to look at their old teams offers and plans for next year and then also consider the new teams offer and then you just have to choose which one fits you better.

Here is a positive loyalty aspect---we have a young man who committed to us us last year and before he even stepped on the field with us he was offered things by other teams---he told them no way I am going where I promised----now after a great fall he is getting calls from other teams--his dad lets me know when and who is calling and he is still with us for the coming year


It is nice to see there is some loyalty still around