Teen volleyball player takes her dispute to another kind of court

I don't know much about the league or its rules, so I cant really comment too much on the situation the young lady is in (or why)... but this really caught my attention in the article.

 

"The competition has pushed kids to specialize in sports younger and parents to look for early advantages. There is now an under-8 national championship in basketball. A Colorado company markets a $169 test that will determine a child’s genetic predisposition to strength or endurance sports. Another makes athletic training videos for 6-month-olds."

 

Wow.

bballdad - that caught my eye too. I can't even imagine what those products would look like and who would actually buy them. If my son had taken such a test at age 10-12, I think it would have told him to quit sports altogether. Puberty does amazing things for athletes. As for 6-month old athlete training, well, it's not even worth talking about.

Back when my daughter was in high school (26 now) a family sued a travel coach for 700K for not getting her a college scholarship. The travel coach won. The evidence for the decision was experts (other coaches in high school and college) who said she was a marginal D3 talent. 

 

As for overdoing it as a parent with preteens, if I went by my kid's talent level and interests at age eight my son would be playing college soccer. My daughter would have been out of sports by high school. Both play(ed) college ball.

An interesting note on that story is that the lawyer defending the girl's family's suit is a friend from my law school days.

 

Trust me when I tell you, by the time this is over, the girl and her family will not be happy they started this.  More and more courts are losing patience with the filing of these sorts of suits, and up in NoVa, attorney's fees awards are growing more frequent and, in many cases, quite large.

Short of state legislation combined with signed waivers, coaches may very well need NFP E&O to, at the very least, cover those civil suit legal fees.

 

A neighbor (few houses away) ran the community soccer league, and is still defending a lawsuit brought 2 years ago. It was then that it dawned on me that when money exchanges hands and/or there is a projected (real or perceived) revenue stream, it's a business transaction.

Guess I will be in the minority again here, I think she had every right to sue. The girl didn't file a frivolous lawsuit because she got benched, or didn't get a scholarship.  She filed the lawsuit because after the coach stated she wouldn't be playing much she wanted to be on a team where she could get significant playing time BUT "The organization" refused to let her on another team. 

 

Picture this scenario in baseball terms:

 

Your son is in 10th grade, he's worked hard for years and now is the time to catch the eye of the varsity coach at his High School and maybe even a college coach.  He tries out for 4 travel teams, one travel team says "You are the best Short Stop at this tryout, you will get significant playing time here."  The 10th grade player chooses that team over the other offers, even signs a contract.

 

It started off okay at practices but the first 2 tourneys your kid is benched.  The kid has a conversation with the coach and he says "Sorry, I just don't think you are ready to take over that Short Stop spot, you likely won't play very much the rest of the season.  If you want you can practice with the B squad to get more time in or you can Transfer to another team within our organization."....So, you find another coach the kid does a tryout, they like him, they offer him a spot...but the organization says we won't approve the transfer because it sets a bad precedent.

 

She didn't ask for money, she wanted to play on the best possible team that would give her significant playing time....gee....where have I heard that before....humm...

 

A quote from the mom:

“I never imagined in my wildest dreams there would be a lawsuit over this,” she said. “But I think it’s the right thing to do. I don’t think my child is the only one that has experienced something like this. They don’t think they have to answer to anyone.”

 

As someone who helps run a league, this type of thing scares me. If a suit was filed against our league, we would be done. End of story. And things happen every year that tick parents off. When you are dealing with volunteer coaches (I am assuming the coach in this story is a volunteer, but maybe not), you work with what you have. Leagues will cease to exist if insurance rates sky rocket or there are no people willing to help for fear of being sued.

 

In this situation, you would hope that cooler heads would have prevailed (on both sides) before it reached this stage. This is basically a he said, she said situation since most of the promises appear to be verbal. It doesn't sound like there was any mention of guaranteed playing time in the contract. It's just really sad that things get to this point in youth sports.

 

My son tried out for a travel team when he was about 10. The owner of the academy was very straight forward with us. He only saw my son's role on the team as an occasional pitcher. He wouldn't see any playing time at other positions and his pitching time would be very limited. I always respected him for being so honest and we continued to attend his academy for training. Today, my son is one of his top younger prospects.

I would have hoped cooler heads would have prevailed too.  The defense of the league was "“Should CHRVA allow players the ability to move teams when they are unhappy with the amount of playtime they are receiving, we would be overwhelmed with requests to change teams,”

 

Right or wrong, he said she said...according to the player compliments were said, promises made, coach might have been blowing smoke at her...fine whatever, if another coach wants her why not let her transfer?  It sounds to me like "The organization" had a severe power glitch in this scenario and this families actions are being compared in the article to the $40 Million lawsuit filed by the dad of a kid who got cut from the track team...how are these similar?

I am in agreement that she should have been allowed to play for another team, especially since her coach agreed to the transfer; and for those saying that this could cause the leagues to fold, they don't have to spend the money to go to court.  They could have just used common sense and let her move.  Basically, the girl found a new home. Why hold her hostage?  Some may say that kids will do this all the time if the precedent is set.  I say that they would only be able to move if another team wants them.  Let the girl go where she can develop.

I don't think you have it right.  The club organization didn't stop her, the League did.  She was rostered on one team and wasn't allowed to change teams during the season. I'm sure the league rules were very clear before she signed up.  Perhaps she wasn't careful reading the registration forms - that's her fault.

 

As far as her basic argument, travel baseball tournaments operate the same way on any given weekend.  For that matter, you can't just switch teams in Little League either, nor can you in most cases in High School.  Does any youth league of any sport allow a player to hop from team-to-team during a season?  I can't think of one.  She's trying to break down a basic notion of league sports and is going to ridiculous lengths to do so.

 

Wow.I have a daughter that's only 4-months, but seems very advanced and her private (tummy time) instructor said she had D1 potential. Would I be considered an overbearing or overusing parent if I started my 4-month old on the 6-month old video? Please let me know. We're very stressed over this.

I have been involved with several court cases over the years, they have a been business based personel or contractual type isses but I have learned one thing in the process, even if the coach got a 100% verdict from the judge he didn't win...for no other reason then the time, money and utter BS of being sued for such garbage - there were no winners!!! it is a shame.

This case wasn't about swapping teams mid tourney, it was about swapping teams mid season.

 

As for the question does any youth league allow a player to hop from team to team during a season....maybe we should ask the myriad of posters "looking for a pick up game".

 

The simple basics of this case are she no longer wanted to be on the team she was, her coach agreed, she found another team, and yet she was not allowed to transfer.

Nearly every league I've been involved in has had strict rules governing in-season changes of teams after their rosters have been set by whatever draft or tryout process they use to produce some semblance of competitive balance.

 

The easy and obvious solutions to unhappy players and teams are never as easy or obvious as their advocates want to believe.

 

Let's suppose there are eight teams in the league, and this player is the second best setter both in her league and on her original team. Let's also suppose this player's obvious discontent with her second string status is affecting her team. If she is permitted to move to an otherwise strong team that has a below average setter, her original team would benefit by subtraction of a distraction and her new team would benefit by addressing a positional weakness, but the six other teams would be worse off as a result of the transaction and have every right to object.

 

Since every team has players on its bench and some of those players might be capable of earning playing time on another team in the league, it is never possible to optimize the assignment of players so that everyone is happy. Every change creates a new cycle of unhappy benched players and unhappy opposing teams.

 

Once you permit one piece of the jigsaw puzzle to move, you can't put it back together.

 

That's why it's not surprising to hear the league would not approve a transaction that both teams and the player support.

 

Ok say the girl was allowed to transfer. Is the other team one kid short of having enough to play? If not then won't she have to take another girls spot. Now does that girl changes teams and take another girls spot. Does one of them sue. This is typical the world revolves around my child crap. Instead of teaching the kid to work harder and get better. First they tried to teach her run away and find a new team. When that didn't work teach her don't worry honey mommy and daddy have enough money to fix it.

When I told my 14 year old about this. He said I guess next year in HS I shouldn't try to take a starters spot. I might get sued. Sad thing is that would be just as rediculous and just as likely to happen.

Heck maybe the daughter should sue the parents for not giving her good enough genetics to be a starter in the first place.

IDK: in my household, I'm batting 1.000 for being at fault for whatever.

My daughter plays club volleyball, and a gal moved in from out of state.  She was added to the roster, which is now 9 girls.  Guess what?  She is taking time away from some of the other girls.  Should they have not allowed her to join the club and play because she as taking time away from other players?  Roster changes happen in season all the time.  Not necessarily for the reasons discussed, but they do happen.

Great post as usual swampboy!

 

unfortunately, this family obviously is not thinking about the impact to the league and other teams that their daughters transfer would make. They clearly have tunnel vision.

 

I want MY kid to play! well...wahhhh! ...Go earn it!

 

as a few of us have mentioned, there is a delicate balance at stake here. its not just this girl getting playing time. its the girl on her new team who would now get benched, its the team she is leaving being short a person, its all the other teams in the league that didnt get the advantage of picking up another kid. 

 

Sounds like the squandering of what could have been a great opportunity to teach the kid about the bigger picture, and her own work ethic...way to NOT rise to the occasion. I hope their loss in court gets as much publicity as the initial case. 

According to the article there are 16 girls on the team (so no shortage there) she had 4 offers, she went with this team because of the promised playing time.  After two tourneys of being sat she (the player) approached the coach and he told her she wouldn't see the playing time he had promised, he gave her the option to join another team, she accepted...but the league then said no, effectively trapping her into a non-playing position in her 10th grade year when she was trying to break out...hard to do that from the bench.

 

Thankfully my kid plays Travel Baseball....if he was in 10th grade and was made offers by 4 teams and went with the team that the coach assured him a LOT of playing time, and then he was actually riding the pine I would object to him not being allowed to join another team. 

 

Bottom line, this girl was offered significant playing time which affected her decision on where to play, and then didn't get it...so she wanted to change teams and go where she was valued...still don't see the problem here.

 

Ryno,

Not a relevant example. Players get hurt; players quit. Most leagues have rules for how, when, and why they permit replacements to join after the beginning of the season.

 

Allowing a new player moving into the area to join in accordance with established league rules (which probably require her to be assigned to a team that is short of players or be offered first to teams that are lowest in the standings) is entirely different from letting a player to change teams just to increase the likelihood of getting more playing time.

I guess for me the key is league vs. travel team.  My kids have played in leagues basketball, softball and baseball. I run our cities youth select travel basketball teams. Those teams are all in a league and also play tournaments.

 

In the leagues, there are mandates so players can't just switch teams within the league. for my basketball teams it is based off the city they live in. Yet, if those teams play in a tournament they can pick up players and occasionally do. For my kids baseball and softball teams it varied but local rec where a blind draw happened and that was your team for the season. For travel ball they tried out and make the team (seems to be what happened in this young girls case). But once you agreed to be on a team within the league, no switching. For LEAGUE play. NOW, as far as travel teams that play tournament play. We all know that kids get picked up all the time. Every tournament is it own separate entity from a roster point of view.

 

For one of my sons baseball leagues when they were about 11 or 12 (this was over about a 50 mile radius travel baseball league- lots of talent in general). There was a rule where you could be "released" by a team then switch my a certain date. I want to say by June 1 (which happened to be on a Saturday of the league tournament, which was roughly a third of way thru season). I think the rule was made for this young lady's kind of case. The problem arose when 2 mediocre teams coaches got together and made a "super team" hand selected about 12 kids. They got together with both teams at the tournament and basically hand select those players, cut the rest and told them to go home, one of those 2 teams was defunct. As you can imagine, lots of angry people. they beat the date by 1 day. Some of parents of those kids that were cut hanging out at tournament looking to get their kid on another team. MAJOR MESS. Next year, the date was March 1 which was before the season started.

 

 

 

I think the distinction is League vs Travel. And from what I read, it was a league, so switching should not be allowed once that date is set, or you could have the kind of mess I witnessed.

I disagree.  The point is that roster changes happen.  Additionally, I am not a one size fits all kind of guy. I am a case by case guy. At some point, the league should have said, this is going to cost a lot of money to litigate, and they should have made an exception.  If the league is put in jeopardy because of this situation, it is their own fault.  How big of a deal is it really to let the girl move on, especially when her own coach agreed for her to move?  I don't think it is that big of a deal.

 

It is a big deal now, because the league decided to let it get this far.   They should have allowed her to change teams. 

 

 

Your response sounds pretty naive.

 

Have you actually tried to run a league populated by ruthlessly manipulative parents and coaches on a "case by case" basis?

 

You would never have a sound basis to say no to any unreasonable request. And after the first time you cave in to a lawyered-up bench warmer's parents because you have no credible policies and precedents, you will have only yourself to blame for the chaos that breaks forth when everyone else realizes you can't stop any scheming coach, parent or player from seizing whatever personal advantage they want to claim.

 

You cannot run a league like that.

 

Between your false dichotomy of one-size-fits-all and case-by-case lies ample room for sensible, defensible policy that provides structure while also maintaining the means to make exceptions in unusual circumstances when they are truly warranted. 

 

Most leagues made it real hard for players to move from team to team, but permit the board to consider the totality of circumstances in special situations.

 

A subsequent AP story on this case provided the additional information that, "The league’s handbook says players are ordinarily forbidden to transfer teams but can switch if they show a 'verifiable hardship condition exists.' "

 

(Also, there appears to be an inaccuracy in the linked Wash Post article, which says the player played JV last fall as a sophomore. She does not appear on any of the school's posted rosters from last fall, and the AP story merely says she attended the school.)

 

This additional information reveals that it's not a one-size-fits-all league. The league has structure, but it also has by-laws that permit accommodations in special situations.

 

This additional context shows that what we have is a player who had high hopes after a good tryout but was surprised to find herself on the bench after early scrimmages revealed her game wasn't as strong as her coach initially thought it already was or could become. For most people, disappointments like this are part of the vicissitudes of normal living. For these parents, they are a "verifiable hardship condition" that obliges the league to change its rules.

 

So I ask you as a case-by-case league administrator: If you permit this bench player who didn't play JV volleyball as a sophomore to change teams on the grounds that not starting on her present team imposes a "verifiable hardship" that will prevent her from developing her "college level skills," how would you ever deny any request from any other player to change teams? And what sane parents and coaches would want to remain affiliated with your league after you open the door for any player to change teams for any reason?

Thanks for essentially calling me an idiot.  The fact of the matter is there are many "crazed" parents out there, but very few that would rise to the hire an attorney to fight the system.  Once it rose to that level, they should have caved.  One, not many would have the resources to take it that far, and for two, most wouldn't want to put their resources forward for this situation. 

 

I feel that you are pretty naive, if you think this league caving would open up the flood gates for them to be sued at every turn.  Not many would want to take the hassle or spend the resources to sue based on the gain of half a season.

 

They should have allowed her to play and avoided the expense, and the hassle.

I think you have to consider the "for profit" nature of these club teams and leagues.  It's not high school or rec. league.  If you pay and otherwise do the work, you should have a reasonable expectation of some sort of playing time.  And every league I have been familiar with has mandated playing time of all players.  Even our "elite" travel baseball league required a continuous batting order and allowed free substitutions. 

 

So somewhere the league and the club messed up.  And I'll agree with ryno.  While there are a lot of crazy parents, not many will take it to court.  That's why these stories make the headlines -- they are rare.   

Ryno,

 

Your thesis:

 

The fact of the matter is there are many "crazed" parents out there, but very few that would rise to the hire an attorney to fight the system.  Once it rose to that level, they should have caved.

 

is why this country is in so much trouble until we get tort reform (which is likely to never happen).  You are basically saying that those with deep(er) pockets win.  Have the money or connections to hire an attorney, while the other side does not, and you win!  Wow!  What a great society...unbelievable.  Until the lawyer that brings a frivolous law suite has to pay for the other sides' expenses and punitive damages, this kind a stupid crap will happen more often.

 

Just wow.

Did I say it was right?  Did I say that is what I would do?  NO on both counts.  Just because I say 1 + 1 = 2, it doesn't make me guilty.  I am simply stating what I see.  Please don't shoot the messenger...

I would also like to add, in what part of society does money not matter?  Money makes the world go round.  Do you think that rich people don't get their way in most circles?   Try to run for Senator or President without deep pockets.  Look at Dances with the Stars.  Do you think that Rumor Willis would be on the show without being the child of Demi Moore and Bruce Willis?  How many rich kids get the benefit of the doubt when they are in trouble with the law?  Not only rich kids, but rich athletes, celebrities, and just plain rich people?  Rich people get lots of advantages.  It is what it is?  I don't spend a lot of time letting it bother me.  Of course I wish I was one of the privileged, but I am not.

Ryno,

 

I did not call you an idiot, essentially or otherwise. Naivete and idiocy are completely different animals.

 

My disagreement with you is not personal. Please don't take this discussion further down that road.

 

I like you. You add a lot to this site. I'm rooting for your son. Let's keep this friendly.

 

I explained how good policy consistently followed will serve a league's long-term interests much better than ad hoc surrendering to intimidation.

 

My view is rooted in long experience managing hundreds of people at a time and serving on boards of non-profit organizations.  I've successfully stood up to lawyered up complainers in my professional and volunteer work, and I know what works and what doesn't work. I've been called a lot of things, but no one who knows me has called me naive in at least thirty years or so.

 

I still believe your proposed "case by case" management style leads to chaos and seldom promotes the objectives of the organization that practices it.

 

...and for clarification purposes, we are not talking about the ultra rich (rumor willis, etc.)  This is about youth athletic leagues that are either non-profits or an entity that covers its costs and returns marginal returns to those spending endless hours trying to provide a league for the players.  Those entities should just "cave" because a crazed parent cannot communicate a hard work ethic to his child and would rather litigate?  As has been said already in this thread, I am anxious to hear about this going to court and likely see this family shamed in the end.

Didn't we just have this debate over on the other thread....I believe I was in the minority when I stated Schools have to have zero-tolerance rules to prevent the onslaught of sue-happy people....and most people stated that zero-tolerance is the easy way out and everything should be handled on a case by case basis.

 

I can admit...I am on the side of a case by case basis on this thread, how about the rest of you?

I don't disagree. However, I think when you have one parent who is "Way Out There", you need to handle it differently.  At some point the cost is going to far outweigh the potential headache.  Litigation is not cheap, and I am not sure it is worth it to move forward in defense of the league's rule.  Maybe, I am wrong.  I guess we will see. 

You did mention that the ultra rich that could afford litigation would have an advantage.  My examples were listed just to show that the ultra rich have many advantages.  Not saying it is right.  It just is what it is.

Golfman, I agree and disagree.

 

I agree that there should be some expectation of playing time when someone puts out the money. how much is Very much up to interpretation. When My baseball teams were young (13 and under), we did the continuous batting order / free substitution most of the time. Once my kids got to 14u and older, almost every tournament / league they were in had specific rules about how many hitters. We did track playing time and "sit out" time. and made sure our players got "x" percentage at least. we told all that to parents up front.

 

One my boys reached 16 playing was not guaranteed at all, even on the travel teams. there were a few times parents were mad about playing time and I completely understood, but it was upfront that there was no guarantee and it was performance based.

 

So I guess I agree at the younger ages and disagree by the time they are sophomores in HS How's that for waffling  

We had an issue like this at my son's old travel organization.  A HS age level coach took something like 18 players for a "showcase" team, and then treated it like a HS team -- "best" 9 played.  So kids where putting in a lot of work, traveling to out of state tournament, spending money, and sitting on the bench.  So the question came up -- what is the purpose of a "showcase" team?  They where going to tournaments to play in front of recruiters and scouts.  But only a few where getting any type of exposure.  Needless to say, many where not happy.  So there is a balance there somewhere. 

CaCO3Girl,

 

Zero tolerance is as much an enemy of sound policy reasonably exercised as case by case management. 

 

Zero tolerance is is used by organizations that don't trust their managers to exercise discretion. Case by case management is used by managers who don't trust their organizations to write sensible rules and delegate authority.  

 

This situation has nothing to do with zero tolerance. In fact, the league has a process and guidelines for accommodating unusual situations where genuine hardship exists. 

 

Ryno--

Twice in my career I have had to clean up the messes left by case-by-case managers.  The first lesson I learned is that case-by-case managers inevitably get a lot more cases to consider, so many that they don't have time to do their primary job of leading their organizations. In both situations, the middle managers told me my predecessors were very nice guys, very concerned about the workers.  However, they drove everyone crazy because no one knew what the rules were or who was allowed to waive them. No never meant no. My predecessors got their ego strokes every time they stepped up to be the nice guys who said yes, but they created cultures in which supervisors felt unsupported, decisions drifted up to much higher levels than where they should have been resolved, and no one was confident enforcing any performance or conduct standards if they thought anyone would complain about it. The bosses were nice guys, but overall happiness and productivity went way down.  

Good points.  Unfortunately, we do live in a society where the elite do have advantages that some of us do not have.  This young girl obviously has parents that have the means to fight the system, and I am not sure that the cost/hassle is worth fighting.  A huge legal fight could make the whole league fold, and that would be far more detrimental to the whole than just letting the girl move on.

This isn't some town club organization. The league is a designated region of USA Volleyball. USA Volleyball makes the rules. While organizations do make mistakes (let's not get started on the NCAA) they are coming from experience. USA Volleyball has decided this setup and rules work the best. 

 

The girl had a choice of four teams. There is no such thing as guaranteed playing time unless a coach is a fool. Parents often misinterpret "every opportunity" for guaranteed in all sports at every level. She had a choice. She new the rules. She signed a contract probably cosigned by her parents. Play by the rules or go play somewhere else. There's nothing keeping this girl from going outside the realm of USA Volleyball to play.

Re: changing teams

 

I was the commissioner of our town's 8/9 rec league basketball program. We made teams by having evaluation tryouts with judges, tallying up the scores and distributing the talent. The problem is some kids are awesome in drills from attending camps. But they fall apart with an aggressive defender in their face.

 

One of the teams #2 player broke his leg and missed the season. Their #1 player fit the example above. At the mid way point of the season when this team was 0-8 two mothers came to me to shuffle the rosters and restart the league.

 

Another parent told me the team was 0-8 because the coach stunk. The problem was the coach never got upset. He kept smiling and encouraging players. I told this parent if I wasn't coaching I would have wanted my son to play for this coach. He was a former D1 player whose five kids ultimately were top high school basketball players (some played college hoops/all played a college sport).