The 60 time

60 time is the most widely used.

When scouts and coaches watch a game, they time the hitters from home to first (contact of bat/ball to foot touching 1B).

I think they both are important, good times in either catagory opens eyes and starts the pen in motion.

CV

But then comes the big question--Does he know how to run he bases ?

grateful and TRhit are correct. The scout wants to know home to 1st above all others. The Showcases are hung up on the 60. In the end the fastest man may or may not run the bases well or get a decent jump on a fly ball. Baseball savvy WITH speed, now thats a combo the scouts really want to see.

Soxnole

What you say is the reason we have three games in our showcase--- they can do what I call the "cold cuts" ---the 60 pop times etc--- that is all well and good but the kids show there stuff in the games-we have the pitchers gunned while in the game not in the pen-- anyone can throw ten pitches in the pen and look good but that does not necessarily show that he is a pitcher


Baseball is a game of intangibles !!! Folks, boys and girls ,don't ever forget that fact--- the intangibles are what differentiate the great players from the good players

Actually both times give us valuble information. The 60 time gives you an idea of flat out speed, excelleration (base stealing speed), and competitiveness when he's running side-by-side against someone of similar speed.It also resembles going from 1st to 3rd or home to 2nd. Home to first time is really game speed. Home to first can be deceiving as some guys have longer swings which slows him down getting out of the box. It's all part of the puzzle.

zg

As a parent of a player in the recruiting process right now, coaches seem to use both. Some coaches have preferred one over the other. Zen mentioned competiveness increasing speeds in a showcase situation, but for my son, it's exactly the opposite. His clock times during game situations are always much better than being clocked at a showcase. He appears more natural and comfortable running when there's a base he's headed to or around.

I'll throw in one more speed rating that coaches and scouts notice, but don't often discuss ... closing speed.

Some guys can really turn it on running the bases or straight-line stuff. But can the middle infielder get to the hole? Can an outfielder cut off the ball in the gap? Sure, in both cases footwork is important. But if you can't get there in the first place all the footwork in the world won't help.

I know the outfielders on my son's college team worked on this kind of running a lot during the fall, getting lots of reps running down balls hit to all possible places at the positions. I was told by the coaches his defensive speed is one of the things they like about him.

60 yard time with a 30 split time will tell all. If a kid can run a quick sixty you can be bet his base running skills will be good. Getting a good jump on a hit ball is another story.

Limom84

Anyone who knows baseball, talk to all those scoputs yopu hang out with, will tell you that flat out speed ie 60yd dash, has nothing to do with how a player runs the bases

Can you say Maury Wills !!!

CAn you say Willie Mays?

Can you say Jackie Robinson?

None of those three where flat out burners but boy where they exciting on the bases

Bernie Williams (NY YANKS) in his prime was one of the fasted players in the bigs but also one of the worst baserunners in the bigs

And then there was the sprinter that Charley Finley signed -- great 100 meter speed but knew absolutely nothing about running the bases.

Getting a jump on a batted ball or "closing" on a batted ball has nothing to do with flat out spoeed or running the bases.


It is not wise to wade in water when you do not know how deep it is !!!!

Happy New Year

Speed is essential in base running, but smarts and great instincts help a whole bunch.

CV

CV

Happy and safe New Year to you and your family

Thanks Tom, You too !

CV

I have a son that runs a very fast 60 time (like mid 6's), and I'm one that thinks it is very over rated.

I could never run as fast as my son, but I was a great base runner.

My son is a good base runner, but needs to work on his secondaries. Because he is so fast, he sometimes gets lazy.

And, yes, I'm picking on my son. But he isn't the only one I've seen with the same problem.

God gave him speed, you have to learn to become a great baserunner.

KellerDad

I think you can relate to this

My son, who has excellent footspeed,was in a fall instructional HS league run by a coach from another school in my sons league

So there we are , my son on first and LHP on the mound. He gets picked and takes off for second and makes it easily due to his speed--- the coach calls time and spends the next 15 minutes teaching my son how to read the LHP move

Just goes to show that speed isnt eveything--you need to read the pitchers, read the outfielders and infielders etc when on base

Happy New year

FYI...home to second IS a 60 yd. dash. The bases are 90 ft., so home to second is 180 ft (180 / 3 = 60 yds.)

Agentdad

But it is not in a straight path and the player is coming out of the batters box not from a dead start.

One can use those numbers if they wish, numbers can always be worked to ones advantage if so desired, but they do not equate to a 60 yd dash. And if you are a righty hitter the distance is longer and for the lefty hitter it is a bit shorter.

The most used time is from home to 1st, because it is used every game. The 60 time is something that is done at a showcase or tryout camp. They both have value, because the 60 tells the scout how fast you are compared to other players in a race. The home to first time has value, because it also compares you with other players, and how fast you get out of the box. I have seen many guys who were 6.9 60 runners that ran 4.6 down the line. The two times give the scout a comparison between getting out of the box and straight away speed.

PS---unless the times are unreal, I don't give either one too much thought, as hitting, fielding and throwing are more important to me.

speed is great when you have someone that can run and knows how to get jumps- also some kids leave purposely on lefty first move because they know they can make it to 2nd, When all the growth hormone and steroids are wiped out of pro baseball-probably 100 years from now speed will be very important

quote:

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Originally posted by TRhit:
But then comes the big question--Does he know how to run he bases ?

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What do most coaches here teach; round a base using left foot to push or right? I always thought it was right foot but one of our coaches teaches them to use the left.

I spoke with a Expos/Nationals Coach yesterday and brought up this topic. He said the reason they use the 60 is because they can teach kids how to run bases. He said they can't teach them how to be fast.

You also cannot teach instinct and that is 90% of base running

S,

Who or what is a 'Expos/Nationals' Coach?

Another view point regarding 'how to improve'
sort of speak......baserunning "times."

a) Improving baserunners ability to score (with two outs) from 2b, on a base hit.

b) Improving baserunners ability to score )with two outs) from 1b, on a double.

a) & b) Includes pitchers, catchers and corners.

Happy New Year

Why all he negativity about the 60 time. If a kid can run it's a great bonus. Why not say about a hitter, can he run the bases or can he field or sure he can hit but his OBP is low. If a kid can run a fast sixty he can flat out run. He can steal and beat out many ground balls. I see how Bernie Williams speed has held him back all these years.

We are talking about High School players here, a fast kid in High School will steal bases easily at this level and that so called instinct is so overrated. I think instinct is confused with experience at this level.

Scouts get excited about the 60 time especially when the kid has some size and athletic ability.

limom

Once again you miss the point !!!!!

If the batter cannot get to first base he cannot steal second base or any other base for that matter

I am with bbscout-- hittng , fielding and throwing are key. After that you factor everything else in and trust that it works

There is no negativity about the 60 just that is not as important in most peoples eyes as it is in yours.

Again I say this--- if he cannot get to first base he cannot steal second or third and even more critical IF he does not get on base ( ie hitting ) he cannot score--runs are most important in this game of baseball.


Happy New Year

tr

Again you miss the point. You assume if a kid can run he can't hit. Often the fastest kid on the team is the best player. The other runners you speak of that can't hit have already been weeded from the game.

Quote "Often the best player on the team is the fastest player". No, often the fastest player on the team is the designated runner.

limom

you logic does not merit reply

Coach May,

Maybe in your league they use a designated runner, but up here, where the men play, we don't use that baby rule.

...............................................

"Where Men Play" "baby rule"

These are not meaningful responses, Come on Limon84 straighten up.

/S/ Moderator cvsting

TR and BBScout are right on - no matter which of the "5 tools" a kid has - HE STILL HAS TO BE ABLE TO PLAY THE GAME. What good is speed if a kid doesn't know what to do with it? A 6.8 60 is worthless if he takes a huge turn around 2nd on his way to third and gets thrown out b/c he didn't read the ball or the outfielder [RH or LH?? moving to his backhand or throwing side??...] and it takes him a week to get there b/c he ran 200 feet instead of 180, and he made a slide into the throw, instead of away from it b/c he didn't read the 3B eyes?? Because he doesn't know HOW to run the bases. We had a couple fast guys on our bench last year [faster than all but 1 or 2 of the starters] - everytime they pinch ran, THEY GOT PICKED OFF or CS, WHY - because they didn't know the game, they had no instinct, couldn't read the pitcher's move, get a good jump, etc. They were on the bench b/c they weren't very good BASEBALL PLAYERS. Head coach finally stuck with leaving the slow guys on base that had a clue. Might only be one base at a time for some of them, but that is WAY better than giving away outs. Instinct can make up for a lack of speed on the bases and in the field. Fielder cheats a little to a side b/c he sees the pitch that is called, knows the count, etc. That's instinct, and that's baseball. While it's true you can't teach speed, you also can't teach instinct. Over the course of a season, a slower, instinctive BALLPLAYER will make more plays than a speedster trying to figure out the game. Instinct is a great equalizer - having it speeds you up, b/c you don't have to think about what to do; lacking it slows you down to the level of the mortals, then you still don't know what to do.
BTW, once they reach HS, the best player isn't always the fastest, the best hitter, best pitcher, and plays shortstop when he isn't pitching and batting leadoff/cleanup. That usually only happens on Fantasy Island. Coach May is talking about a guy who's primary job is pinch running, "real men" or not, don't know too many league using a DR, but I guess that's just instinct on my part.

That "baby rule" is a big reason the Red Sox beat the Yankees and allowed them ultimately to win the World Series. Do you remember the stolen base by Roberts then the base hit that drove him in? Up there where the men play we don't use that baby rule. If you had any idea how ridiculous that response really is you would be embarrassed to post here again.

quote:

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Up there where the men play we don't use that baby rule. If you had any idea how ridiculous that response really is you would be embarrassed to post here again.

---

One can only hope and dream - New Year's Resolution, anyone?

quote:

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Originally posted by Coach May:
That "baby rule" is a big reason the Red Sox beat the Yankees and allowed them ultimately to win the World Series. Do you remember the stolen base by Roberts then the base hit that drove him in? Up there where the men play we don't use that baby rule. If you had any idea how ridiculous that response really is you would be embarrassed to post here again.

---

That is not a designated runner, that's a pinch runner. Roberts is a professional and surely can hit or else he would not be in the majors today. The only time we use a DR is when there are two outs and the catcher is on base and the speed up rule is in effect. Then and only then the player that made the last out runs for him.

The only reason Dave Roberts is in the Big Leagues is because of his running ability. If he didn't run well, he wouldn't be there! Guess you could say running ability is pretty important in this case.

He did score two of the biggest runs in the playoffs and stole a very important base. He had 0 at bats in the playoffs.

Excluding limom's absurd comments, this is a nice thread. It's great to have qualified baseball people with the knowledge to educate those that are looking for valuable information and to point out ridiculous comments whenever limom makes them.

OK Limon NFHS allows for a DR for the catcher and pitcher regardless of outs. With two outs you still do not have to run for them if you do not want to. A pinch runner is a substitution but what is the difference as far as the reason you would run for them? Take a slower runner out and replace them with a faster runner right?Maybe in the pitchers case to save his legs and and or prevent injury etc. Now why would you consider it a (baby rule) to take out a catcher or a pitcher and replace them with a faster runner? By the way what is a (baby rule)? As a coach why would I not want to take advantage of the rules? Oh lets see catcher is on second after hitting a double. Im not going to use that baby rule I will just leave him in the game and hope that he scores on a base hit even though I have a faster runner in the dugout. You see I dont want to use that baby rule. Come on don't you see how ridiculous you sound. Roberts would not be in the Majors if he couldn't run. He is on the team to steal bases in key situations. Yes a PR. And guess what, we will have two guys on our team again this year to do just that. One to run for the catcher everytime he reaches because he will be fast and will work on baserunning almost exclusively. And another to pinch run in a (PINCH). Hello.

Limon you stated that the player that made the last out runs for him. Then you are not playing High School baseball. And you have probaly answered alot of questions about yourself right there. You are in the rec ball world trying to discuss things that are out of your league. There is no where in High School where the player that made the last out runs for anyone. What are you talking about (Little League)?

Coach May - sounds more like back yard wiffle ball [last out pinch runs - HAH] -- sometimes they made the last our BECAUSE they are slow -- YEAH - I want THAT guy pinchrunning for me!! They must do things different on Fantasy Island. I wonder if they use "invisible man in second", too?

Coach May,

You are right. The rule I stated for the DR is in the National Junior League on Long Island. It is a league many players use as a second team to work on skills. They use the last out to DR to avoid having the fastest runner always being inserted.

windmill

In back yard wiffle ball there is no base running. Hits are derermined by where they land.

single = ground ball
double = lands between mound and oak tree
tripple= lands between oak tree and fence
HR = over fence

Attended a showcase this week and took along my stop watch for fun. What I saw out of 51 players was 3 below 7 6.7, 6.8, 6.9 and most around the 7.6-7.7. None over 8 as they were running in pairs and I timed the faster of the group. Most all pairs finished very close together, even when one was out front at the 30 mark the other usually made up the gap by the finish. Only on one pair looked like a mismatch and that was the 6.9 paired with an average runner.

My son went to showcase last week at Kentucky. The coach stated that the 60 was not important to him and most college coaches but that home to first was. He went on to say that the pro scouts were more interested in the 60. He said all this while three pro scouts were standing close to him.

I thought that I would add this to the discussion.

And to add the pro scouts stuck around the pitchers most of the day until it came to the hitting part of the showcase.

Tasmit,

The pro scouts did not watch the sixty because the times are published before the hitting. You can be sure they watched the kids with the top times hit very closely.

Limom, Go back and read BBScout's post. I also happened to speak with a local scout (there are quite a few in my area) with what has been posted here. He said almost the identical thing to what BB posted.

I think you need to open your mind. We're all here to learn. You don't seem very open to other people's experience or knowledge.

limom

Where you there in Kentucky????

Do you know for a fact if they posted the times????

quote:

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60 yard time with a 30 split time will tell all. If a kid can run a quick sixty you can be bet his base running skills will be good. Getting a good jump on a hit ball is another story.

---

Limom - You can be the fastest player on the planet and not have baserunning insticts and you will be an out more times than not. I am not sure how anyone that understands the game could say that if you have speed you are a good baserunner. I have been around this game over 30 years as a player and a coach and if I know that a player is fast and does not have a clue on the bases, well to say the least I will take advantage of that and turn that weakness into an out every time.

Let me get this straight....I have a fast 60 yard dash, therefore my baserunning skills are good...hmmmm?

A fast player can be taught to run the bases smart...some learn some dont. To say that because he has a fast 60 it means his baserunning skills are good...well your wrong!

YOUR NOT EVEN CLOSE ON THAT OBSERVATION! NOT EVEN CLOSE.

I am curious as to how Limom can determine who is a scout and who is not a scout. For sure they are there to review the kids abilities and do not want anyone to know they are there. They want to be left alone to do their job.

I have sat with Coach Slater (Auburn), Coach Laval (LSU), Coach Thomas (LSU), Coach Butler (ALA), at events and picked their brains on what they are looking for and they all say....they are looking for "Players"...kids that can play. When I asked them how important all of these times and junk were they all said....if the player is fast I can see it, if he can hit I can see it, if he can throw I can see it, they dont need numbers to tell them if a player has skills.

TFusa20


Amen to that !!!!!

Some of the best "players" around do not shine in drills._They have to be seen in "gametime" !!!

So now I learned two things from reading the posts on this thread. First, if you are fast, then you can't hit. You know, you gotta get on first to use that speed...And second, fast kids lack instincts.

Take a look at one of the above posts to see how few kids run a sub 7.0 60. I think that is why people get so upset, because their sons lack speed. But that kid with the great 60 speed gets to start in CF, at least when Dad's not coaching.

tr-
Of course, I was in Kentucky. I am everywhere...

limom...please will you show me where I said anything about hitting or that fast kids lack instints...my topic was on baserunning.

You said

quote:

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60 yard time with a 30 split time will tell all. If a kid can run a quick sixty you can be bet his base running skills will be good. Getting a good jump on a hit ball is another story.

---

I respectfully disagreed and explained why. Do you always talk in circles with no apparent reasoning. I surely hope your son does not know you are embarassing him on this board with rediculous observations.

Last I checked you can't steal first base.

This is crazy!

tfusa-

Who said anything about stealing first base? That is implying that if you are fast, then you can't hit.

Now, let's get back to stealing 1st base. A routine grounder that a burner beats out for a hit is, in essence, a steal of first base. This brings me to my next thread, "Can you steal first base?"

P.S. Leave my son out of this. He is only 7, a 2015 player and currently runs a 13.7 60.

I agree with much that is being said here. However, I think it’s a bit misleading to any young player or his parents who might read this. It might be true that some clubs might not be as interested in 60 times as other clubs, but those 60 times are still the standard for many of the MLB clubs.

I can say in all certainty that with most clubs running grades relate to the 60 and home to 1st times. I’ve had way too many college coaches ask us for 60 times to think they don’t care about them. Also, the 60 may not be the only thing that shows athletic ability, but it sure is one of the things. The fastest 60 runners we’ve ever seen all had outstanding athletic ability. And yes, we’ve seen subpar 60 runners who were outstanding athletes, too.

The so called “numbers” are not the only thing that’s important, but they sure are vitally important when scouting and grading a player. Until everyone who scouts or grades players starts throwing away their stop watches and radar guns, the numbers will always be important. H-1 times, 60 times, 30 times, 40 times, SB times, everything is important. The very best baserunners are “FAST” and they are “SMART”, not just one or the other.

A good suggestion to any young man who can really play the game is to work hard to improve the numbers in order to improve the grade a scout might give you. This game is still very much a “tools” thing. Yes, you can run a 6.3 60 and be a bad baserunner. Also, you can be the smartest baserunner on earth, yet not be “fast” enough to play at the highest levels at certain positions.

Being smart does not by itself get you a stolen base or allow you to score from 1st base on a double, at the highest level. The “smartest” thing a young player can do is to work hard to improve his running ability and lower his running times.

Many players who have played at the highest level will say the biggest difference is the speed of the game. This is not to be confused with how fast everyone can run. It has to do with the entire game. At the highest level infielders pick it up and get it to first base faster. They turn the double play faster. Most players throw “faster”, swing the bat “faster”, pitchers get it to the plate and catchers get it to 2B "faster", etc. etc.

The best thing about baseball is that a player can be a below average runner and if he can really hit, he might play in the Big Leagues. A player can have a below average arm and if he can really hit he might play in the Big Leagues. Now days, hitting is the most important tool (IMO). However all other tools are all very important. Speed is very important and young players should work hard to improve in this area rather than argue about it’s value.

Chris Lubanski, BJ Upton, Lastings Milledge, Ryan Harvey, etc would not have been drafted as high as they were if they ran below average 60s. The top two ranked high school players right now (most would agree) are Justin Upton and Cameron Maybin. Upton grades out 80 in the 60, Maybin is a 70. Yes, they have other plus tools, but if they were both below average runners, they wouldn’t be the same prospects that they now are.

My suggestion (take it for what it’s worth) Rather than argue about the system… Join it! Do everything possible to improve the tools! All the tools! There are a ton of very smart players who fill the stands or coach the game. The majority of those on the field have the "tools". There are players who have the tools and don't play the game real well. And there are those that have the tools, have the brains and have everything it takes. These are the ones on television every night.

This is not meant to argue anything. Call it my opinion if you like. I just don't want people getting the impression that having a weak arm or running slow is equal (to scouts and college coaches) as long as you know where your throwing the ball and know how to run the bases. It's all important, you decide what's most important!

That was a very good post Jerry. Now we have to decide what "athletic" is in baseball.

I start arguements with other scouts all the time.......they will say that basketball players are athletic and I will say Why? I saw the greatest basketball player of all time play baseball and he threw like a non athlete and he hit like a non athlete and he fielded like a below average athlete. He ran like an athlete. Did that make him an athlete? I saw Griffey when he was 17 and he ran, hit, threw and fielded like an athlete.

PGStaff-

That was the best post I ever read. Everyone knows that hitting is the most important tool and when combined with other top tools, you then have a player.

Which PG showcase would be best for my '06 to attend?

PG

Have to agree with you---

There are not many 5 tool players in the bigs


A few examples:

Bernie Williams--great speed poor base runner-- also not quite a centerfielders arm-- still and excellent all around player

Ichiro-- does it all except hit for power


Look at the two gentlemen who were voted into the HOF yesterday-- Boggs and Sandberg--by no stretch of the imagination are they 5 tool players.

I also agree that the college coaches want the 60's-- for a frame of reference--it is all part of the evaluation , like the arm strength--

BBScout

The term athletic is a tough one to put definition to.

I am not sure there is a pure definition or example--- as you point out the best basketball player looked atheltic and agile on a court but on the baseball field he did not---does that make him non athletic ???

Interesting topic--- we should take it to another thread of its own

limom84,

quote:

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Everyone knows that hitting is the most important tool and when combined with other top tools, you then have a player.

---

You've come a long way from "Hitting is Overrated".

tr-

Define "frame of reference in the 60"? I don't think it means, yeah, you're slow, we want you...

I think it means this kid runs a 6.7, we've got to have him, but I'll ask those scouts that I hang with this coming weekend.

limom--

It is simply a means of comparison between players

Yea--go ask them-- they have really helped you so far!!!!

You are better off discussing with Coach May--- he can teach you a few things!


One last thing--I don't have an oak tree in my backyard--how do I play wiffle ball?

tr-

They haven't helped me yet, signing period is not till late '05.

Coach May? I thought he was a HS coach. I need help from a college coach or a pro scout or a minor league ball player or the fine folks at Perfect Game.

As for your wiffle ball game, no triples-only singles, doubles and homeruns.

Beezer,

quote:

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What do most coaches here teach; round a base using left foot to push or right? I always thought it was right foot but one of our coaches teaches them to use the left.

---

Not sure if anyone answered your question.

The inside foot (left) should touch and push off the inside corner of the bag.

Sometimes this just doesn’t happen. If you have to change your stride to do the above, then you should touch with the (right) foot.

TR,

I noticed you mentioned Willie Mays, Jackie Robinson and Maury Wills as none being flat out burners. I respectfully disagree!

Also, someone mentioned the 60 yard being a “showcase” thing. Believe me, I was timing 60s a long time before knowing what a showcase even was. Showcases have absolutely nothing to do with why 60 yards is used.

When at a game, the H-1 is all you got. We record both straight through and rounding the bag. All young players should get in the habit of doing both as quickly as possible because some day, someone will likely have the stop watch on them. And it could be very important! I start the watch just before contact. The time it takes to react and start the watch is equal to the time it takes the bat to make contact. Just last week I got a player 4.55 H-1. His dad standing right next to me showed me his stop watch, it read 3.98. (He ran a 7.3+ 60) I asked dad how he times that . He said from the sound (crack of the bat) to 1B. There’s the difference and I bet he anticipated the touch of 1B, too!

PGStaff-

I don't want you to miss this. Tell me what is the best PG showcase for my '06 son?

JERRY

I don't consider them burners in light of some of speedsters today like the Roberts kid--they were fast but not track meet fast, at least to me-- I appreciated how they combined good spped with excellent baserunning and baseball smarts on the bases. Wills may have been the best ever is reading ptichers and getting a great jump as he stole a base

I always felt they were more excellent baserunners than flat out speedsters-- but back them as kids we did not have all the stats and technical aspects to compare players as we do today. Suffice it to say I would take any of them on my team in heartbeat

We can also add Roberto Clemente to that group of excellent baserunners with good speed.

limom,

I try my best to get along with everyone. But, in the interest of my standing in the HSBBweb “good old boys” club, please don’t be quite so nice to me.

I would be very interested in finding out just what makes you tick! I’ve got a hunch you’re pulling some legs around here at times. I’d need to know more about your son before I could honestly answer your question. If you ever feel like emailing me, feel free. I will keep it all very confidential. pgjerry@qwest.net

I won’t see my email until next Wednesday, though.

TR,

Guess there’s no way of really knowing but I would guess all three would have run real fast 60s. Especially Mays and Robinson who had to be two of the fastest in their time. Wasn’t Jackie Robinson a star running back at UCLA or Southern Cal?

PG

I am sure we cannot dispute that--yes Robinson was a star running back at UCLA

We can agree to disagree on the term burners but we both agree that they were great ball players and we are splitting hairs in calling them burners or not--

Doug,

Here’s my opinion:

I think Michael Jordan was one of the greatest athletes I’ve ever seen. Bo Jackson, Carl Lewis, Willie Mays, Dominique Wilkins, Wilt Chamberlain and thousands of other people have been great athletes. Of course, not all were or would have been great baseball players.

A great athlete is a great athlete. To me athletic ability includes running, jumping, body control, instincts, reactions, coordination, and all those types of things. All those things are very important in baseball, but they are no where near enough. Throwing requires some athletic ability as does hitting, but it’s all together different in my mind. Though I believe being a good athlete can certainly be a benefit in throwing and hitting, there’s no guarantee. Fielding to me is more an athletic thing and I believe Jordan, or the others would have been good defensively if that’s what they had grown up concentrating on. To me the big separator is and will always be hitting. Being the greatest athlete in the world means nothing in the batters box. But if you’re good in the batters box and you’re a great athlete=Willie Mays. Or you can be good in the batters box and not very athletic=John Kruk

I think skills and athleticism are different things. But when the two are together it’s a big deal! I guess a great baseball athlete would be the guy with the most good playable skills or tools. Maybe someone like ARod. However, if only pure athletic ability were judged, there might be other ML players who are even more athletic. In other words the best “baseball athlete” may not be the best “athlete” in baseball.

I do think NBA basketball players are the best pro athletes overall. I can’t think of any John Kruk types playing in the NBA. Them wide receivers, defensive backs and running backs in the NFL are all good athletes, too.

A young baseball player we are familiar with who I would consider a “great” athlete is Carl Crawford. He led the American League in SBs last year. In high school his biggest weakness was his arm. He might have become a Heisman Trophy option QB at Nebraska if he hadn’t signed with the D’Rays.

So I think there is a difference between all the sports, but to me a great athlete is anyone in any sport who has great athletic ability. It doesn’t necessarily make them any better of an athlete if they play more than one sport. It doesn’t even mean they will be the best at the sport they play. I think it’s possible to be a great athlete without ever being extra special at any game let alone more than one. But, I would always take my chances on a great athlete.

I would also take my chances on that big LH bat at UCLA.

In two different posts on this thread limom84 writes:

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P.S. Leave my son out of this. He is only 7, a 2015 player and currently runs a 13.7 60.

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Tell me what is the best PG showcase for my '06 son?

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Do you have 1 son playing baseball or two? Maybe more time watching them play to learn the game of baseball would be time better spent than "hanging out with scouts". But, then that's just my opinion.

RHP

Don't let her "trolling" get to you !!!!

Have you guys heard of Lennie Limonetti? Im telling you what if you haven't you will soon enough. Last year he stole 185 bags in 185 attempts. He actually stole first base 50 times. Can you believe it he actually stole first base! He runs a 4 flat 60!!!! Thats first to third in 4 flat. I hear he cant hit that great but with that speed who cares. This is how he usually steals the show at a game. Starts off the game stealing first. Steals second and third on the same pitch and then steals home. Now listen to this strategy by the coach to utilize his speed. Late in the game runner on first ok. Are you following me? One out Lennie is up. Well he k's on purpose for the second out. Well what do you know he gets to run for the guy at first because he made the second out of the inning. Cool aint it. Well guess what he steals second and third on a breaking ball. Usually he only steals one base on a fastball on two on a breaking pitch. Steals home and they win. Oh did I forget to mention that this is whiffle ball? Who cares if he can do this in a whiffle ball game just wait till the hs season.

Coach Cohen of UK stated that he and other college coaches didn't care about the 60. The key words being HE and OTHERS. Others may ba a select few and not ALL college coaches.

Just wanted to clarify.

Limom,

In fact the pro scouts were standing there at the finish with stop watches in hand. And the times were being recorded by the staff.

RHP05-

I have two sons, an '06 and a '15. So I'll be here a LONG time...

Aren't you guys lucky...

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Originally posted by PGStaff:
Beezer,

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What do most coaches here teach; round a base using left foot to push or right? I always thought it was right foot but one of our coaches teaches them to use the left.

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Not sure if anyone answered your question.

The inside foot (left) should touch and push off the inside corner of the bag.

Sometimes this just doesn’t happen. If you have to change your stride to do the above, then you should touch with the (right) foot.

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Thanks. Our head coach is instructing them to do just that (push off left foot) but I never see players do it. I don't get to see many college games but even during the CWS, I never saw any runners do it so I just thought I'd ask around.

More 60 times from the Jeff Davis CC showcase. The times I posted before from the Faulkner showcase appear to be a little faster than these.
JDCC Showcase

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Originally posted by dad4boys:
More 60 times from the Jeff Davis CC showcase. The times I posted before from the Faulkner showcase appear to be a little faster than these.
http://www.jeffdavis.cc.al.us/index.php?action=1382

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Just as on would suspect, not one time under 7.0. Is it clear why scouts love speed?

Scouts love speed. Scouts love guys that can hit. Scouts love guys that can pitch and throw hard. Scouts love alot of things.

Speed good glove, hitter Great
Speed ok glove, hitter Good
Speed ok glove, ok hitter (Have fun in HS)

From my own personal experiences when you go to most of the showcases one of the first things they do is run the 60. If a kid can fly then it usually gets alot of attention, but as soon as gets to the fielding, throwing and hitting and if they are terrible or below average, speed means nada.

There's a kid on my team, that runs a 6.8 straight 60, I run a 7.15 (on a good day). In a race from home (out of the box) to second (sliding), I beat him everytime. Because I can run bases and know how to slide. Kids on the team bust on me because some football player that tries out for baseball smokes me in the 60, but takes fly balls off the noggin like jose canseco.

Some of the best players down here are kids that aren't fast, they've got everything else though.

It's so overrated, unless you've got the other tools, then it makes you first five round draft material.

By the way, we run bases in wiffle ball and try to peg you with the ball and leave the biggest welt imaginable on their ---.

Texas,

What most fail to realize is that 7.15 is a very good runner and faster than most. When I talk of sub 7 runners, I am talking about boys that can play the game and yes they even can hit. You would have the third fastest time at the showcase I referenced, so all eyes would have been on you for fileding and hitting.

Good luck and keep up the hard work.

PG,
I've heard coaches who advocate hitting the bag with the left foot and coaches who advocate hitting the bag with the right foot.

Hitting the bag with the right foot would seem to result in the shortest path.

What is the reasoning behind hitting the bag with the left foot?

Just a clarification (fwiw)...the JDCC Showcase that is being referenced made a point to include a memo that the 60 numbers were higher than what might normally be expected because of excessively wet outfield grass.

CADad,

If I could draw the path it would make more sense. Most coaches would teach using either right or left foot (whichever one was in stride). I don't know of any high level knowledgable coach who would ever teach right foot touching the bag being the best way. If you know of someone who teaches this, I'd like to talk to them in order to see if they know something I might not be aware of.

Ideally, the inside (left) foot allows for the fastest time from H-2B or 2B-H. It is more about technique and path than anything else.

1. It allows for runners to use the bag when rounding it. Your left foot on the inside corner done properly will shift your weight and can be used to push off towards the next base. Your outside (Right) foot does not allow this without slowing down a lot because of weight, balance and momentum.

2. It allows for a more square turn rather than the big circle and create a more straight line to the next base. Everyone would agree that a straight line (square) between bases would be the shorter path than a circle. Your right foot touching the bag is more likely to cause wide turns and unsure footing.

You are right in saying the actual path the body takes seems shorter. After all it is true that the right foot is the outside part of the arc.

However, if we take 2B-H as an example: The runner who touches 3B with his right foot is much more likely to have momentum towards the 3B Dugout than the runner who cuts this turn and has a more straight line approach towards home plate. Sometimes the right foot has to be the foot that touches because you don't want to change stride which costs time. This is often when you will see runners make the wide turn to the plate.

Once players understand how much quicker the left foot touching gets them to their target, they can practise this and become very good at getting their stride working just right to use the inside foot most all the time.

Also think in terms of running bases more than one base at a time. There are advantages in the last 90 feet vs the first 90 feet being the shortest or straightest line. This is why hitters who know they've got at least a single start arcing early. It might be slower to 1B, but it's much quicker to 2B. This allows for more judgement time in the first 90+ feet and less time to run the most critical less than 90 feet.

Trying to score from 2B is the same in that you want the last leg to be the fastest most direct route. The 3B coach has the added advantage of having more time in making his decision as to scoring or stopping the runner.

So lets say you have absolute exact running time from 2B to home plate with straighter first leg and wider turn and second leg vs a wider first leg and faster straighter last leg. The faster last leg (3B-H) is much more beneficial in many ways. Those with the big turns that get them way out in the grass are most likely to be thrown out.

Once again, if anyone has a different theory I'd be very interested in hearing it.

PG,
Thanks.

CADad,

No problem! Anything for one of our favorite physics experts.

I always feel like putting a disclaimer on everything I say.

"This is the way we do it, it's not necessarily the only way it can be done"

That would cover most things anyone mentions in baseball.

It seems to me that if you hit the bag with your left (inside) foot you would also reduce the possibility of an ankle sprain due to a mis-placed landing on the bag. You might stumble, but you won't roll the ankle. Your right foot would have more of a tendency to roll under if you had a bad touch on the bag.

A couple years ago, my son learned this the hard way ... a long shot to CF on a field without a fence looked like a sure HR on the roll. He hit 2B at full speed and his right ankle gave way ... he had sprained it earlier that month so it was already weak. The good news was he was wearing a laceup brace. He plowed a groove in the infield with his face all the way out to the SS position, then hobbled over to 3B for the standup triple ... the brace saved his ankle so the only injury was to his dignity ... and some road rash. He and his teammates laughed pretty long about it.

It would probably have resulted in a very bad sprain without the brace, but had he landed on his left foot instead, the right foot would have next been on flat ground and would have been OK.

Thanks for raising this question, CaDad, about which foot to use for running bases. We ahve coached to run the bases by hitting the bases with the left foot but have done so in a blind fashion. Meaning I was coaching something I really didn't understand the reasons for, other than that it is the way I heard to teach it. It made more sense to me, since I was also one of our teams football coaches and we teach our receivers that they CAN NOT make their cuts on the inside foot! This makes since to me and you see the difference that it makes in our receivers routes, especially their quickness coming out of their cuts. Isn't this basically what you are doing in base running? I understand you don't do a perfect 90 degree cut at the bag but it still makes more since to me that you can take less of an angle into a bag by using your outside foot to explode off the bag while making your. Just my thoughts.

PGStaff, I did try to read your post on this topic but could not quite understand the reasonings you were using, so if you wanna try to explain it to me a little bit differently I would appreciate it because your are actually the only one that I have even heard from that actually gave me some sort of reasoning for this (even thuogh I don't understand it)

Thanks Guys (and Gals if you choose to reply)

KC Dad,

I probably didn't explain it as well as others might. The big difference in football is there's no bag that has to be touched. I'm surely no expert on passing routes, but if the outside foot is "always" used to turn on, there must be a good reason. My question would be... if your running full speed and you make a left turn off your outside foot... where does your inside foot go on the very next stride?

In running the bases... If you at full speed touch the base with your right foot... your left foot in it's next stride almost has to go beyond your body (in it's path to the next base). This would be much easier to explain with drawings.

If your inside foot touches the bag... your next stride is right foot outside your body... where it should be. You will make this turn faster with better balance and gain better footing and leverage in using the bag to push off of. It is much easier to create a shorter/straighter/faster line to the next base.

My suggestion is to have your runners do it both ways and watch. I think it will become fairly obvious after awhile. Of course, there is more to it than simply using your inside foot. There is technique involved in doing it properly.

When rounding the bases, the most critical distance is between the base your trying to reach and the base right before it. In other words if you read sure double possible triple you will set this up for as straight as possible line from 2B to 3B because there will be no play at 2B. Same for being at 1B when the hitter hits one in the gap, you'll want 3B to H to be as straight a line as possible, because there won't be a play at 3B. Same as getting a base hit to left field, you start rounding because there won't be a play at 1B. It's on these final turns that using the inside foot is most beneficial.

This is one of those things that is hard to describe in words (I guess) and very simple to describe on the field. Sorry, if it's hard to understand.

In baseball you can cut on the inside foot because you have the bag to allow you to lean without losing footing. If you were to try to cut on your inside foot in football at that velocity the foot would just go out from underneath you and you would have to step across your body with the right foot. (assuming that you are cutting left)

The bag helps to propel you and make the sharper cut rounded without losing acceleration. If there were no bag, the cut would be very rounded, almost to the grass.

Football cuts, or routes, tend to be very precise angles and not rounded. They also incorporate head and shoulder fakes as a form of deception. Again not applicable to base running. The purpose of the footbal route is not pure speed, but it is an attempt to get separation in order to get open to catch a pass. Baseb running is purely about jump and speed. Two different animals.

Left foot makes sense as PG recommends.

It would seem that touching with the left foot allows you to incline your body the most so that your center of gravity is the lowest and therefore make the sharpest cut at the highest incoming speed.

WOOHOO! I got it. Thanks PG, your second paragraph put it all together for me. It all makes since now. Man, I love this board. Now I can finally explain the reasoning behind this without telling the kids to just "do it". I always hated that

to me, a big reason for the left foot is that when you take that next step, (if you hit the bag with your right foot), that next step would be with you left and you're very likely to slip or slide (especially with a wet track). And, as Jerry said, that left foot would be in a bad position (outside the body) on the next step. Can't really dig in with the left foot, but you could with the right.

So, for me, its more about that next step that the step that hits the bag.

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Originally posted by TRhit:
Limom84

Anyone who knows baseball, talk to all those scoputs yopu hang out with, will tell you that flat out speed ie 60yd dash, has nothing to do with how a player runs the bases

Can you say Maury Wills !!!

CAn you say Willie Mays?

Can you say Jackie Robinson?

None of those three where flat out burners but boy where they exciting on the bases

Bernie Williams (NY YANKS) in his prime was one of the fasted players in the bigs but also one of the worst baserunners in the bigs

And then there was the sprinter that Charley Finley signed -- great 100 meter speed but knew absolutely nothing about running the bases.

Getting a jump on a batted ball or "closing" on a batted ball has nothing to do with flat out spoeed or running the bases.


It is not wise to wade in water when you do not know how deep it is !!!!

Happy New Year

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the sprinter was Herb Washington.

Yes, that experiment kind of failed. Herb Washington was very fast but he wasn't ever a baseball player.

He played a little over a year before they gave up on the whole idea. However in 1974 he did help Oakland win a few games with his speed, he stole some bases and scored some runs.

He did get something that many Major league players want badly... A World Series Championship ring. Not bad for a guy who never hit, pitched or played a position in his life.