The 60 time

60 time is the most widely used.

When scouts and coaches watch a game, they time the hitters from home to first (contact of bat/ball to foot touching 1B).

I think they both are important, good times in either catagory opens eyes and starts the pen in motion.

CV

But then comes the big question--Does he know how to run he bases ?

grateful and TRhit are correct. The scout wants to know home to 1st above all others. The Showcases are hung up on the 60. In the end the fastest man may or may not run the bases well or get a decent jump on a fly ball. Baseball savvy WITH speed, now thats a combo the scouts really want to see.

Soxnole

What you say is the reason we have three games in our showcase--- they can do what I call the "cold cuts" ---the 60 pop times etc--- that is all well and good but the kids show there stuff in the games-we have the pitchers gunned while in the game not in the pen-- anyone can throw ten pitches in the pen and look good but that does not necessarily show that he is a pitcher


Baseball is a game of intangibles !!! Folks, boys and girls ,don't ever forget that fact--- the intangibles are what differentiate the great players from the good players

Actually both times give us valuble information. The 60 time gives you an idea of flat out speed, excelleration (base stealing speed), and competitiveness when he's running side-by-side against someone of similar speed.It also resembles going from 1st to 3rd or home to 2nd. Home to first time is really game speed. Home to first can be deceiving as some guys have longer swings which slows him down getting out of the box. It's all part of the puzzle.

zg

As a parent of a player in the recruiting process right now, coaches seem to use both. Some coaches have preferred one over the other. Zen mentioned competiveness increasing speeds in a showcase situation, but for my son, it's exactly the opposite. His clock times during game situations are always much better than being clocked at a showcase. He appears more natural and comfortable running when there's a base he's headed to or around.

I'll throw in one more speed rating that coaches and scouts notice, but don't often discuss ... closing speed.

Some guys can really turn it on running the bases or straight-line stuff. But can the middle infielder get to the hole? Can an outfielder cut off the ball in the gap? Sure, in both cases footwork is important. But if you can't get there in the first place all the footwork in the world won't help.

I know the outfielders on my son's college team worked on this kind of running a lot during the fall, getting lots of reps running down balls hit to all possible places at the positions. I was told by the coaches his defensive speed is one of the things they like about him.

60 yard time with a 30 split time will tell all. If a kid can run a quick sixty you can be bet his base running skills will be good. Getting a good jump on a hit ball is another story.

Limom84

Anyone who knows baseball, talk to all those scoputs yopu hang out with, will tell you that flat out speed ie 60yd dash, has nothing to do with how a player runs the bases

Can you say Maury Wills !!!

CAn you say Willie Mays?

Can you say Jackie Robinson?

None of those three where flat out burners but boy where they exciting on the bases

Bernie Williams (NY YANKS) in his prime was one of the fasted players in the bigs but also one of the worst baserunners in the bigs

And then there was the sprinter that Charley Finley signed -- great 100 meter speed but knew absolutely nothing about running the bases.

Getting a jump on a batted ball or "closing" on a batted ball has nothing to do with flat out spoeed or running the bases.


It is not wise to wade in water when you do not know how deep it is !!!!

Happy New Year

Speed is essential in base running, but smarts and great instincts help a whole bunch.

CV

CV

Happy and safe New Year to you and your family

Thanks Tom, You too !

CV

I have a son that runs a very fast 60 time (like mid 6's), and I'm one that thinks it is very over rated.

I could never run as fast as my son, but I was a great base runner.

My son is a good base runner, but needs to work on his secondaries. Because he is so fast, he sometimes gets lazy.

And, yes, I'm picking on my son. But he isn't the only one I've seen with the same problem.

God gave him speed, you have to learn to become a great baserunner.

KellerDad

I think you can relate to this

My son, who has excellent footspeed,was in a fall instructional HS league run by a coach from another school in my sons league

So there we are , my son on first and LHP on the mound. He gets picked and takes off for second and makes it easily due to his speed--- the coach calls time and spends the next 15 minutes teaching my son how to read the LHP move

Just goes to show that speed isnt eveything--you need to read the pitchers, read the outfielders and infielders etc when on base

Happy New year

FYI...home to second IS a 60 yd. dash. The bases are 90 ft., so home to second is 180 ft (180 / 3 = 60 yds.)

Agentdad

But it is not in a straight path and the player is coming out of the batters box not from a dead start.

One can use those numbers if they wish, numbers can always be worked to ones advantage if so desired, but they do not equate to a 60 yd dash. And if you are a righty hitter the distance is longer and for the lefty hitter it is a bit shorter.

The most used time is from home to 1st, because it is used every game. The 60 time is something that is done at a showcase or tryout camp. They both have value, because the 60 tells the scout how fast you are compared to other players in a race. The home to first time has value, because it also compares you with other players, and how fast you get out of the box. I have seen many guys who were 6.9 60 runners that ran 4.6 down the line. The two times give the scout a comparison between getting out of the box and straight away speed.

PS---unless the times are unreal, I don't give either one too much thought, as hitting, fielding and throwing are more important to me.

speed is great when you have someone that can run and knows how to get jumps- also some kids leave purposely on lefty first move because they know they can make it to 2nd, When all the growth hormone and steroids are wiped out of pro baseball-probably 100 years from now speed will be very important

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Originally posted by TRhit:
But then comes the big question--Does he know how to run he bases ?

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What do most coaches here teach; round a base using left foot to push or right? I always thought it was right foot but one of our coaches teaches them to use the left.

I spoke with a Expos/Nationals Coach yesterday and brought up this topic. He said the reason they use the 60 is because they can teach kids how to run bases. He said they can't teach them how to be fast.

You also cannot teach instinct and that is 90% of base running

S,

Who or what is a 'Expos/Nationals' Coach?

Another view point regarding 'how to improve'
sort of speak......baserunning "times."

a) Improving baserunners ability to score (with two outs) from 2b, on a base hit.

b) Improving baserunners ability to score )with two outs) from 1b, on a double.

a) & b) Includes pitchers, catchers and corners.

Happy New Year

Why all he negativity about the 60 time. If a kid can run it's a great bonus. Why not say about a hitter, can he run the bases or can he field or sure he can hit but his OBP is low. If a kid can run a fast sixty he can flat out run. He can steal and beat out many ground balls. I see how Bernie Williams speed has held him back all these years.

We are talking about High School players here, a fast kid in High School will steal bases easily at this level and that so called instinct is so overrated. I think instinct is confused with experience at this level.

Scouts get excited about the 60 time especially when the kid has some size and athletic ability.

limom

Once again you miss the point !!!!!

If the batter cannot get to first base he cannot steal second base or any other base for that matter

I am with bbscout-- hittng , fielding and throwing are key. After that you factor everything else in and trust that it works

There is no negativity about the 60 just that is not as important in most peoples eyes as it is in yours.

Again I say this--- if he cannot get to first base he cannot steal second or third and even more critical IF he does not get on base ( ie hitting ) he cannot score--runs are most important in this game of baseball.


Happy New Year

tr

Again you miss the point. You assume if a kid can run he can't hit. Often the fastest kid on the team is the best player. The other runners you speak of that can't hit have already been weeded from the game.

Quote "Often the best player on the team is the fastest player". No, often the fastest player on the team is the designated runner.

limom

you logic does not merit reply

Coach May,

Maybe in your league they use a designated runner, but up here, where the men play, we don't use that baby rule.

...............................................

"Where Men Play" "baby rule"

These are not meaningful responses, Come on Limon84 straighten up.

/S/ Moderator cvsting

TR and BBScout are right on - no matter which of the "5 tools" a kid has - HE STILL HAS TO BE ABLE TO PLAY THE GAME. What good is speed if a kid doesn't know what to do with it? A 6.8 60 is worthless if he takes a huge turn around 2nd on his way to third and gets thrown out b/c he didn't read the ball or the outfielder [RH or LH?? moving to his backhand or throwing side??...] and it takes him a week to get there b/c he ran 200 feet instead of 180, and he made a slide into the throw, instead of away from it b/c he didn't read the 3B eyes?? Because he doesn't know HOW to run the bases. We had a couple fast guys on our bench last year [faster than all but 1 or 2 of the starters] - everytime they pinch ran, THEY GOT PICKED OFF or CS, WHY - because they didn't know the game, they had no instinct, couldn't read the pitcher's move, get a good jump, etc. They were on the bench b/c they weren't very good BASEBALL PLAYERS. Head coach finally stuck with leaving the slow guys on base that had a clue. Might only be one base at a time for some of them, but that is WAY better than giving away outs. Instinct can make up for a lack of speed on the bases and in the field. Fielder cheats a little to a side b/c he sees the pitch that is called, knows the count, etc. That's instinct, and that's baseball. While it's true you can't teach speed, you also can't teach instinct. Over the course of a season, a slower, instinctive BALLPLAYER will make more plays than a speedster trying to figure out the game. Instinct is a great equalizer - having it speeds you up, b/c you don't have to think about what to do; lacking it slows you down to the level of the mortals, then you still don't know what to do.
BTW, once they reach HS, the best player isn't always the fastest, the best hitter, best pitcher, and plays shortstop when he isn't pitching and batting leadoff/cleanup. That usually only happens on Fantasy Island. Coach May is talking about a guy who's primary job is pinch running, "real men" or not, don't know too many league using a DR, but I guess that's just instinct on my part.

That "baby rule" is a big reason the Red Sox beat the Yankees and allowed them ultimately to win the World Series. Do you remember the stolen base by Roberts then the base hit that drove him in? Up there where the men play we don't use that baby rule. If you had any idea how ridiculous that response really is you would be embarrassed to post here again.

quote:

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Up there where the men play we don't use that baby rule. If you had any idea how ridiculous that response really is you would be embarrassed to post here again.

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One can only hope and dream - New Year's Resolution, anyone?

quote:

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Originally posted by Coach May:
That "baby rule" is a big reason the Red Sox beat the Yankees and allowed them ultimately to win the World Series. Do you remember the stolen base by Roberts then the base hit that drove him in? Up there where the men play we don't use that baby rule. If you had any idea how ridiculous that response really is you would be embarrassed to post here again.

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That is not a designated runner, that's a pinch runner. Roberts is a professional and surely can hit or else he would not be in the majors today. The only time we use a DR is when there are two outs and the catcher is on base and the speed up rule is in effect. Then and only then the player that made the last out runs for him.

The only reason Dave Roberts is in the Big Leagues is because of his running ability. If he didn't run well, he wouldn't be there! Guess you could say running ability is pretty important in this case.

He did score two of the biggest runs in the playoffs and stole a very important base. He had 0 at bats in the playoffs.

Excluding limom's absurd comments, this is a nice thread. It's great to have qualified baseball people with the knowledge to educate those that are looking for valuable information and to point out ridiculous comments whenever limom makes them.

OK Limon NFHS allows for a DR for the catcher and pitcher regardless of outs. With two outs you still do not have to run for them if you do not want to. A pinch runner is a substitution but what is the difference as far as the reason you would run for them? Take a slower runner out and replace them with a faster runner right?Maybe in the pitchers case to save his legs and and or prevent injury etc. Now why would you consider it a (baby rule) to take out a catcher or a pitcher and replace them with a faster runner? By the way what is a (baby rule)? As a coach why would I not want to take advantage of the rules? Oh lets see catcher is on second after hitting a double. Im not going to use that baby rule I will just leave him in the game and hope that he scores on a base hit even though I have a faster runner in the dugout. You see I dont want to use that baby rule. Come on don't you see how ridiculous you sound. Roberts would not be in the Majors if he couldn't run. He is on the team to steal bases in key situations. Yes a PR. And guess what, we will have two guys on our team again this year to do just that. One to run for the catcher everytime he reaches because he will be fast and will work on baserunning almost exclusively. And another to pinch run in a (PINCH). Hello.

Limon you stated that the player that made the last out runs for him. Then you are not playing High School baseball. And you have probaly answered alot of questions about yourself right there. You are in the rec ball world trying to discuss things that are out of your league. There is no where in High School where the player that made the last out runs for anyone. What are you talking about (Little League)?

Coach May - sounds more like back yard wiffle ball [last out pinch runs - HAH] -- sometimes they made the last our BECAUSE they are slow -- YEAH - I want THAT guy pinchrunning for me!! They must do things different on Fantasy Island. I wonder if they use "invisible man in second", too?