The beginning of the end of high school sports?

My fear with the end of high school sports is that you would have more students caring less about school.
I feel you would have more dropouts because for some, athletics is their only way out.

Some may argue that without travel time and practices, grades would go up. For some they might, but overall I think it would have a very negative impact.

I think we all agree that Summer/Select baseball is much more competitive and lends better opportunities than high school baseball. But if you lose interest in school because of the cutbacks, who will have the grades to get into the college of their choice. This is just from the baseball aspect, I can't imagine what would happen from a football and basketball standpoint.

Just my thoughts.

I am surprised that the cost of insurance and the liability to the school hasn't already stuck a fork in it.

One city in our region has a similar problem and has a vaunted and historically great hoops program---Denzel Washington and Ben Gordon have already jumped in with huge donations

In my area, there is only a TINY amount of money that goes to HS athletics from the school system. 95% or more of the budget does come from the boosters through fundraising. Many times the fundraising for each family is optional and they can "buy out" if they so choose. It actually seems to work fairly well. I can't speak for all parts of the country, but here.... HS sports are alive and well and I don't see them going anywhere, including baseball.

Since schools out here seem to get cuts more than any other area of the state budget, the booster clubs and players have been providing a lot of the financing of athletic programs for quite a while. Hopefully it won't get worse because I think the students who have those extra-curricular activities have a better chance of surviving the temptations and some of the trials that uninvolved students encounter.

In our county in Florida, none of the sports budget comes from the school board. It is funded by the booster club team fundraising.

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Originally posted by lafmom:
In my area, there is only a TINY amount of money that goes to HS athletics from the school system. 95% or more of the budget does come from the boosters through fundraising. Many times the fundraising for each family is optional and they can "buy out" if they so choose. It actually seems to work fairly well. I can't speak for all parts of the country, but here.... HS sports are alive and well and I don't see them going anywhere, including baseball.

Same in our school!

High School sports are not going anywhere, except perhaps in a few isolated areas where community apathy takes center stage.

By the way, I also strongly disagree that summer/select baseball is somehow better than high school baseball. Sure, some individual teams are better, but it's still not the same and not nearly as good and does not in the cases with which I am most familiar produce better opportunities. At least not in my neck of the woods at the schools with high quality programs.

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Here's another aspect represented as a threat by these budget cuts. How many parents are going to put up the fee for their kid to sit on the bench? How many kids won't try a sport due to the costs? How many kids will have to choose one sport?

a different twist
how many parents will complain that they paid the same as everyone else. son should play like everyone else?

Hogwash! I find it hard to believe that the same parents that would pay thousands of dollars so their son could play summer ball, showcase, camps etc. would even blink at chipping in a few hundred bucks to fund their son's HS baseball. If indeed a HS programs beging to suffer, somebody (probably the high school baseball coach) needs to do a better job of "marketing" his HS programs. If the team is made up of "poor" kids then it time to do as we always have ---- FUNDRAISERS. Our HS baseball recieved no funding from the school system ----- We (the parents) did -- and built everything from the fence to the pressbox. I personally co-signed a $30,000.00 bank loan so we could build our pressbox. The players (and parents) sold ads on the outfield fence to pay the bank loan off. Our lights were $13,000.00 --- paid for by fundraisers! The school board was nice enought to allow us to build on school property ---- something they didn't want to do at first.
Necessity is the mother of invention!!
Fungo

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
Hogwash! I find it hard to believe that the same parents that would pay thousands of dollars so their son could play summer ball, showcase, camps etc. would even blink at chipping in a few hundred bucks to fund their son's HS baseball. If indeed a HS programs beging to suffer, somebody (probably the high school baseball coach) needs to do a better job of "marketing" his HS programs. If the team is made up of "poor" kids then it time to do as we always have ---- FUNDRAISERS. Our HS baseball recieved no funding from the school system ----- We (the parents) did -- and built everything from the fence to the pressbox. I personally co-signed a $30,000.00 bank loan so we could build our pressbox. The players (and parents) sold ads on the outfield fence to pay the bank loan off. Our lights were $13,000.00 --- paid for by fundraisers! The school board was nice enough to allow us to build on school property ---- something they didn't want to do at first.
Necessity is the mother of invention!!
Fungo

Great post.

Most high schools that I am aware of around here are pay-to-play. A few years back, it was 250.00 per sport and probably has gone up since then. Other extra curricular activities also had to pay including marching band and cheerleading.

User fees are going up..last year in my school it cost roughly $200 to play baseball..now it's more like $350. Football and hockey are around $500..and that's not even near the worst in the area. A couple schools are making kids pay $1000 to play hockey..$1000..plus skates, sticks, and other equipment. I'd hate to be the parent of a kid that plays football, hockey, and baseball. Prices would be higher but there's a great group that raises money for the kids. They charge $50 a member/year and are going door to door to try to get more members. Once a month they raffle off a pair of tickets to a game (Red Sox, Patriots depending on the season). The founder donates his personal tickets. They're also holding a work day where kids can work around the city..fixing up fields, painting bleachers at $10/hour but instead of getting payed it goes to cut their fees. So if you work 5 hours instead of paying $350 you only pay $300..it's a start. Sports are big where I'm from..real big..I can't imagine what it must be like in areas where they're not. Also, I saw that article in the Globe, did anyone notice how the poorer communities had no fees? Lynn, Revere, etc.

I am not aware of any schools here in NC that have user fees. Each county in NC gives its counties schools money for the athletic budget. Many if not all schools have booster clubs which help supply the things that the athletic budget does not take care of.

For instance in baseball our county funds cover our umpire fees , scheduling fees , gate workers , baseballs for games and practice and uniforms. If we have a special need for the field etc we can request additional funds and I have never been turned down in these situations. The booster club takes care of hats , socks , belts , cleats and any other requests we have such as T's batting cage nets etc. We had some problems getting what we wanted a couple of years so we started a Dug Out club which is ran by the parents and alumni as well as friends of the baseball program. They have been awesome over the years getting us what we need.

Our players do not have to pay a penny to play.

With the rising costs of fuel we may have to schedule some closer non conference games. We may have to play JV Varsity DH's and cut down on our travel costs.

Parents and the community will step up. We hold three camps each year and we have car washes , raffles , cook outs etc to raise money. We use this money to get the guys things that otherwise they would not be able to get or would have to pay out of pocket for. If you get off your butt and get the community behind you it can be done. If you sit back and wait for someone to give it to you , you are allowing someone else to control your fate. If you do that then you dont need to be crying about what you dont have or have to pay for yourself.

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Originally posted by Fungo:
Hogwash! I find it hard to believe that the same parents that would pay thousands of dollars so their son could play summer ball, showcase, camps etc. would even blink at chipping in a few hundred bucks to fund their son's HS baseball. If indeed a HS programs beging to suffer, somebody (probably the high school baseball coach) needs to do a better job of "marketing" his HS programs. If the team is made up of "poor" kids then it time to do as we always have ---- FUNDRAISERS. Our HS baseball recieved no funding from the school system ----- We (the parents) did -- and built everything from the fence to the pressbox. I personally co-signed a $30,000.00 bank loan so we could build our pressbox. The players (and parents) sold ads on the outfield fence to pay the bank loan off. Our lights were $13,000.00 --- paid for by fundraisers! The school board was nice enought to allow us to build on school property ---- something they didn't want to do at first.
Necessity is the mother of invention!!
Fungo

Fungo, I couldn't agree more. As I stated earlier, all our baseball "extras" and everything except for the head coach's salary and one assistant I believe come from boosters. My son's first year in HS baseball, several parents had signed on a note that was paid off my son's senior year for the indoor hitting facility which was $200,000-$250,000.... I can't remember the exact number. The field is great with concessions and pressbox. The boys have a locker room attached to the dugout.

There was a huge squable about bathrooms as we had to use the schools. I can't really remember if we got the school system to pay for those or not. Regardless, the parents made sure through fundraising and sweat equity that things were done. As with any other sport, you have the parents who are more dedicated and the ones you never see. Regardless, the kids of those parents were treated the same.

An interesting twist to parent/booster club fundraising in our area. At one hs in our league the baseball team had a wealthy parent that donated alot of money. They built a clubhouse for the team attached to the duggout, they improved the baseball field and facilites overall. An anonymous person complained to the school board about the softball team not having equal facilities. This became a legal issue about Title 9,
equatiy in athletics. There was a huge investigation by the federal government. Until it was resolved any thing that was done to the baseball field had to also be done to the softball field. So, the bb field got new infield dirt and the bb coach had to also pay for and install new dirt on the girls field!

The really interesting aspect of this situation is that the bb team not only had a generous benefactor but they also did fundraising activities (carwashes etc). The coaches worked on the field all the time. The softball team and it's parents did'nt do any fundraisers!!

Ultimately, after a through investigation the school was cleared of any wrong doing and the baseball team was allowed to keep it's new facilities. Only in CA!

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Only in CA!

Wrong. There was an incident in Florida a couple years ago. It's on here somehwere..

Baseball team, players' parents, coaches, etc raised money to build new bleachers, scoreboard and improve the field. Two softball players' parents sued the school because the softball field didn't get upgraded. The softball players, parents, and coaches did nothing but complain. The softball players' parents won.

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Originally posted by CaBB:
…Ultimately, after a through investigation the school was cleared of any wrong doing and the baseball team was allowed to keep it's new facilities. Only in CA!

What school is that? I’ve heard similar stories about a couple different schools up here in NorCal dealing with the same thing. If you don’t want to post it in the public forum, send me a PM.

Its kind of funny isnt it? A program goes out and does what it has to do for itself to have what it wants for its kids. Another program at the same school sits on its butt and does nothing and waits for someone to give it to them. Then when they see the people that work hard and take responsibility for themselves start to have some nice things they complain and want it to. The only thing is they want someone to give it to them instead of working for it. I wonder where they got that idea from?

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The only thing is they want someone to give it to them instead of working for it. I wonder where they got that idea from?

Your the man Fungo.

It reminds of a story my mom used to tell us boys when we were growing up. Its really for small kids but the story is true no matter how old you are.

The Hen came to the farmyard and asked all the other animals. "I am going to plant the garden today. Its going to take alot of work but it will be worth it. We will grow all kinds of vegatables and we will be able to feed ourselves when we get hungry. Would any of you like to help me?" All the other animals looked at the hen like she was crazy. "We have the farmer to feed us. Plus its just too much work. We will never be able to do it on are own. We will just wait for the farmer to feed us. Its a silly idea."

When it came time to harvest the crops the hen came back once again to the farmyard and aksed all the animals. "Its time to harvest the beautiful vegatables from the garden. Who would like to help me? We can then cook them and have a feast. We can feed ourselves anytime we like and eat what we want to eat." Again all the farm animals said "Its just too much work. Why should we work for our food when the farmer will feed us anyway? Its just a silly idea and way too much work for us."

Then the day came when the hen was cooking up a feast with fresh squash , corn on the cob , green beans and many other fresh vegatables. And she even had some wonderful watermelons. She prepared the feast for herself and sat down to eat. All of a sudden there was a loud knock on the door. It was all the other farm animals. "We are here for dinner. The farmer gives us the same thing everyday. We only get a little each day and it is barely enough. Would you be kind enough to allow us to enjoy in your feast?"

"IF NOT WE WILL JUST FILE A LAWSUIT AGAINST YOU."

Sounds like a little childs story doesnt it? To me is sounds just like the stories above. A bunch of people too lazy to help themselves and then they want someone else to foot the bill for them.

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

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Only in CA!

Wrong. There was an incident in Florida a couple years ago. It's on here somehwere..

Baseball team, players' parents, coaches, etc raised money to build new bleachers, scoreboard and improve the field. Two softball players' parents sued the school because the softball field didn't get upgraded. The softball players, parents, and coaches did nothing but complain. The softball players' parents won.

The reason Title IX exists is due to abuses in the system. At our high school a new locker room was built for boys sports while the moldy old one was given to the girls without refurbishing. The baseball fields were completely rebuilt while the softball fields were left with weeds in the infield, holes in the backstop and no outfield fences. A lawsuit filed by the parents of female athletes fixed the situation.

So don't blame female sports for dilemas. The dilemas were created by lack of respect and neglect.
On the flip side I could list some rediculous situations regarding Title IX. But the rule exists for a reason.

Recently a dad wanted to fundraise and to build new dugouts for the varsity. He was ****ed when he found out new dugouts would have to be built for the varsity softball field. The solution was as simple as going to the softball parents and asking if they wanted to raise money for new dugouts. They wanted new dugouts. The only thing holding them back was they didn't think the baseball parents would want to fundraise for the baseball program.

With all the preferences previously given to males sports over female sports at our high school, the girls sports were responsible for about 60% of the college athletes coming from the high school and maybe 67% of the conference titles. When this baseball - softball inequity was going on, the softball team was in the process of winning four straight conference titles and three appearances at states. The baseball team had one winning season during the same time.

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
Hogwash! I find it hard to believe that the same parents that would pay thousands of dollars so their son could play summer ball, showcase, camps etc. would even blink at chipping in a few hundred bucks to fund their son's HS baseball. If indeed a HS programs beging to suffer, somebody (probably the high school baseball coach) needs to do a better job of "marketing" his HS programs. If the team is made up of "poor" kids then it time to do as we always have ---- FUNDRAISERS. Our HS baseball recieved no funding from the school system ----- We (the parents) did -- and built everything from the fence to the pressbox. I personally co-signed a $30,000.00 bank loan so we could build our pressbox. The players (and parents) sold ads on the outfield fence to pay the bank loan off. Our lights were $13,000.00 --- paid for by fundraisers! The school board was nice enought to allow us to build on school property ---- something they didn't want to do at first.
Necessity is the mother of invention!!
Fungo

The typical high school program in any sport isn't loaded with showcase quality athletes packaged with parents with a passion to put up big bucks to play. If it's a low income area I can see the sports disappearing.

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The only thing holding them back was they didn't think the baseball parents would want to fundraise for the baseball program.

My bet is that if they were to have built them, there would not be a lawsuit. That cannot be said for the other way around.

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Originally posted by nd943:
.... did anyone notice how the poorer communities had no fees? Lynn, Revere, etc.

I noticed right away. I was looking to see if there was a correlation between fees and affluence. It seems the school boards are taking advantage of the parents in communities with higher incomes. The chart I saw only included the North Shore since it was in the Community section of the paper. I would have been curious to see fees from all over Eastern Mass.

Our high school in PA charges a one time activity fee of $50.

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

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The only thing holding them back was they didn't think the baseball parents would want to fundraise for the baseball program.

My bet is that if they were to have built them, there would not be a lawsuit. That cannot be said for the other way around.

Why do you think that? There's incredible jealousy at our high school from some of the parents of boys regarding the girls sports. At my daughter's graduation, when talking about the graduating class the principal talked about the dominant sports teams which were mostly girls teams over the four years. Some guy stood up and yelled, "Who give a **** about girls sports!" For the record he was boo'ed.

in my opinion,high school sports will be alive for our kids kids to play.

I am not blaming girls sports for anything. If my baseball parents get out there and work hard to give the boys more than the county is willing to give them I back their efforts 100%. I feel the same way for any sport girls or boys. But if the girls softball team sits on their butts and doesnt do a thing to help themselves but then whines about not having what others have worked to have I dont have one bit of pity for them.

That was the point I was trying to make. If people believe they are entitled to have what others have worked for but are unwilling to work for it themselves they are wrong. I dont care what anyone says they are wrong.

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Originally posted by 20dad:
in my opinion,high school sports will be alive for our kids kids to play.

How many people live in areas where middle school sports have been eliminated by school budget cuts? It's very possible high school could be next.

We have middle school sports in our area. But, there are places around the state (PA) that have eliminated middle school sports.

I hate fundraising with a passion but it's a necessary evil you must live with if you plan to run any sports program correctly. Of course in our attempt to bring equality to everyone the best solution is to bring the strong down instead of bringing the weak up to where the strong is.

Here is a great Title IX story for you. At my last school the baseball team raised money like crazy (before I got there) so they could go to Florida and softball team just played locally. Everyone was happy - baseball was happy and softball was happy. But a parent of a girls basketball player got mad at the coach and decided to stir up a hornet's nest and went to a big city newspaper and said we were violating title IX. The newspaper came in and investigated (this was my first year as head coach) and the state came in and investigated.

Both found that we were title IX compliant everywhere except for baseball and softball because the baseball team made more money than softball. Our solution was to combine the baseball and softball parents into one booster club. So now you have a group of parents who are willing to work like crazy merging (forcibly) with a group content not working and the money split evenly. Amazingly it didn't work.

Title IX is a great idea until you try to implement it. Who did Title IX help in my situation?

I doubt most HS programs will end but some will suffer. Football and basketball will survive because they make money through the gate. Sports that don't require a lot of money for equipment - cross country, golf, volleyball et al - will survive through moderate fundraising. Schools in bigger cities will survive because of the money available but schools in small rural areas will suffer.

Overall I think the good parents will win out and keep things going through fundraising. Which is good because that group will finally start getting the recognition they deserve instead of always talking about the morons out there.

not to get into the politics of school systems. but..........most school budgets are the size of a pretty good sized business. usually run by an educator, maybe they should be run like a business?

there are bumps in the road all the time, this too shall pass.

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quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

quote:
The only thing holding them back was they didn't think the baseball parents would want to fundraise for the baseball program.


My bet is that if they were to have built them, there would not be a lawsuit. That cannot be said for the other way around.
Why do you think that?

Have there been any lawsuits because a girls sport got something and a boys sport did not?

I honestly can say that I have not seen one. That's why I think that. Is it possible? Sure, but my experience tells me it's not likely.

Realize I am ALL FOR girls athletics. I have three older sisters who all played sports in middle school and 2 who played in high school.

But we have to remember that adding more sports to create "opportunities" is not an end-all solution. At my high school, creating a girls s****r team destroyed the softball team. There's only so many athletes to go around...

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=1931559

That is the video I mentioned earlier..

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

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Only in CA!

Wrong. There was an incident in Florida a couple years ago. It's on here somehwere..

Baseball team, players' parents, coaches, etc raised money to build new bleachers, scoreboard and improve the field. Two softball players' parents sued the school because the softball field didn't get upgraded. The softball players, parents, and coaches did nothing but complain. The softball players' parents won.

We rebuilt our batting cages in 2001 with donated and raised funds, about 3K without labor as that was volunteered. It didn't belong to the baseball team, we had to allow the girls softball team use of the facilities, which we didn't mind but they never took care of them as in the agreement, yet we still had to maintain with our own funds. I can relate to Coach May's story.

Wilma came around and wiped everthing out, FEMA gave back some money to rebuild, the school's insurance covered the dugouts and concession stands but refused to pay for the cages. The girl's softball team did nothing to help towards the new cost, yet they still use those cages during season.

No school in our state, as far as I know, is allowed to ask for one dime to play after school sports. Booster clubs, however usually do ask parents to join for a small fee with fundraising efforts. If a parent refuses (and we had some that did) there is nothing we could do, however, I have found that those players don't make an impact anyway and sit alot.

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No school in our state, as far as I know, is allowed to ask for one dime to play after school sports.

In this part of Florida, we pay. Many school budgets only cover the head coach's salary supplement, and the rest has to come from other sources, either by getting sponsors or parents writing a check. Baseball at our school is around $300 for the spring season, usually around $100 each for fall and summer. The biggest public high school in the county charged $400 just for the summer, and I think approaches $1000 for the spring season. The other schools in the county are maybe a little less, but are still up there.

Still, I don't see any signs of HS sports going away in this area. Sponsors have been pretty generous, and when they're not, parents come up with the money.

I would be interested in hearing some informed opinions on the following...

It is my understanding that Title 9 applies only to monies and appropriations made from school budget dollars and not to private donations.

When we were trying to get lights for our baseball field, our AD told us that if we purchased the lights and donated them to the baseball program (installed), they would not be subject to title 9.

We pay a $45 sports fee for every sport. BUT the school district has a limit of $110 per family DISTRICT-wide per school year.

AZ isn't much better. No Junior High Athletics in Paradise Valley District except for intermurals. They kept band, cooking, foreign languages, IB programs. Good choice IMO. Could be one of the reasons that travel ball has exploded here in the last few years since they don't offer it in any form. Gotta play somewhere. I have to pay $55 per kid per sport for intermurals in JH. $330 total. Not including any equipment or travel if one of my kids get picked to do "AllStars".

High school is much higher, but I won't know the exact cost until next year. The coaches may not have anything to do with my kids being multi sport. Cost may keep it to one sport per kid in HS.

Our High School district is the same way as others. If the baseball team wants something the softball team gets it also. It is a bit of a problem and has caused some friction in the past. BB fundraisers get cut in half because both fields get 1 new bleacher. We had a parent volunteer his company to install lights. He couldn't afford to when he found out he had to do both fields.

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Originally posted by 2Bmom:

quote:

No school in our state, as far as I know, is allowed to ask for one dime to play after school sports.

In this part of Florida, we pay. Many school budgets only cover the head coach's salary supplement, and the rest has to come from other sources, either by getting sponsors or parents writing a check. Baseball at our school is around $300 for the spring season, usually around $100 each for fall and summer. The biggest public high school in the county charged $400 just for the summer, and I think approaches $1000 for the spring season. The other schools in the county are maybe a little less, but are still up there.

Still, I don't see any signs of HS sports going away in this area. Sponsors have been pretty generous, and when they're not, parents come up with the money.

2B,
You have to "pay" as a donation (either from your pocket or from fund raising) because there are not enough funds to cover the baseball season at most HS schools. However, as far as I know schools do not "charge" to play. Fees are charged and collected through the booster club, not through the school's athletic department.
CPLZ,
I do beleive you are correct, monies applies to appropriations from schools budgets BUT, all teams are allowed the use of any facility whether built by the school or through private donations, due to Title IX. I know because we had to go through this when we made improvements. Our baseball field is owned by the city, so they can make improvements 9fences, lights, etc) without being involved with Title IX, yet we have to raise thousands to maintain it so that it is playable after everyone else got done with it.