The brush back pitch

I am a Bob Gibson guy. Can't be afraid to hit them.

But it's not illegal to do that.  You're giving them exactly what they want - a runner on first with nobody out.  Why would you do that?  Control what you can control and throw strikes.  If they bunt it then throw them out.  If they place it perfectly cool they earned it.  I doubt they can do it consistently.  If you pound the zone with strikes they will be forced to stop the fake bunt stuff.

Would not throw at them (too much protective gear these days) and therefore would not need to discuss with ump.  If you think you can make it hurt (throwing where there is no protection) then you should be good enough to pitch to them.  You might want to learn how to throw inside (try hitting their hands) and see if that changes their approach - or possibly gets you a first pitch strike. 

I think a good pitching strategy with good defensive execution could turn their approach into your benefit - while keeping them off the base paths.

@coach2709 posted:

But it's not illegal to do that.  You're giving them exactly what they want - a runner on first with nobody out.  Why would you do that?  Control what you can control and throw strikes.  If they bunt it then throw them out.  If they place it perfectly cool they earned it.  I doubt they can do it consistently.  If you pound the zone with strikes they will be forced to stop the fake bunt stuff.

I was never worried about a runner on base, one base at a time.  But they may be worried about taking one off the face to get there, if they could get up.  If they were dumb enough to continue that strategy, you can't intimidate an idiot, so I'd made my point and then just pitch.  But putting a guy on base never bothered me early in a game.

Can't afford to put one on every inning - and can't afford to get pitchers tossed regularly.  Depends on whether you are hoping to win the baseball game itself or simply the game of baseball. 

Actually, the question was not about the strategy, but if you think there'd be any umpires out there today that would understand and ignore it.  PS.  in reality, you never tell anyone you threw at someone on purpose, not even your own teammates/coach.  Everyone knows you did, but you never say it.

Get ahead of the hitter if you know he is taking the first pitch.  Throw a first-pitch "brush back strike" on the inside corner if it makes you feel better.  Bring the defense in, if there is a real speed threat to beat out the bunt.   In theory, a college pitcher should be more than capable of fielding a bunt to get a leadoff out.  If the team knows the other team is going to take this approach every time they come to the plate, then they should be more than ready to counter and take the first pitch strike or take the out.   Their strategy of getting down 0-1 is a gift that keeps giving if your son's team can convert it into an out everytime.   That's 9 outs out of 27 accounted for.

But, I fail to see what this has to do with umpires.  Umpire is there to call balls, strike, interference, etc.   If a pitcher tells the umpire he is going to hit the hitter or "buzz the tower",  then I see the umpire jumping in to warn the pitcher not the hitter.  Bunting is part of the game as long as the hitter is in the box.   I don't see an umpire standing idle if he senses that the pitcher intentionally threw at a batter.   That is a safety issue. 

I can't imagine ever telling an umpire you were going to do that.  I've taught my kids to not say a word to anyone, including me, if they throw a message pitch:  "No man, it just got away from me".  That said, I would totally understand coming in hard on this kid and if he gets hit, he gets hit.  And certainly I would run up the score and steal with abandon on a team like this.

In that case, I am not an umpire, but I would probably not want an umpire that agreed to look the other way just because the other team is being accused of utilizing "bush league" antics to gain an advantage.  If the ump is receptive, you might as well slip him a few bucks for dinner after the game.

Once the pitch speeds surpass 80 - on its way to 100 - the risk is simply too great. 

@Dadbelly2023 posted:

I can't imagine ever telling an umpire you were going to do that.  I've taught my kids to not say a word to anyone, including me, if they throw a message pitch:  "No man, it just got away from me".  That said, I would totally understand coming in hard on this kid and if he gets hit, he gets hit.  And certainly I would run up the score and steal with abandon on a team like this.

Yeah, it was just a query on what you think an umpire would do if someone did say something like that, if you though there might still be some old school umpires around. I typically don't think any umpire today would just ignore the statement, I think they should, but they wouldn't.  Again, just a fantasy type scenario based on a team I've watched play.  Today, yeah you probably just have to take the strike,  Entirely different way then I or most guys I knew, who could pitch, when I played would have dealt with it.

You would never actually tell anyone before or after that you meant it.  Not ever.

@HSDad22 posted:

I was never worried about a runner on base, one base at a time.  But they may be worried about taking one off the face to get there, if they could get up.  If they were dumb enough to continue that strategy, you can't intimidate an idiot, so I'd made my point and then just pitch.  But putting a guy on base never bothered me early in a game.

Did you just suggest throwing at a player's face?

What do you call bush league?  Because to me bush league is stealing up 15 runs or running up the score or hollering as a pitcher is throwing.  I don't see fake bunting as bush league.  Most good teams show a bunt early to see how your infield will respond so maybe what you are seeing as fake bunting is actually good offense.  Now if they are waving the bat then it is bush league but if they are just showing bunt early in a game then they are reading the defense for later.

@PitchingFan posted:

Did you just suggest throwing at a player's face?

What do you call bush league?  Because to me bush league is stealing up 15 runs or running up the score or hollering as a pitcher is throwing.  I don't see fake bunting as bush league.  Most good teams show a bunt early to see how your infield will respond so maybe what you are seeing as fake bunting is actually good offense.  Now if they are waving the bat then it is bush league but if they are just showing bunt early in a game then they are reading the defense for later.

In these cases, it is not done to read defense, the intent is obvious.  Oh and this particular team does those other things too.  Which is too bad, because 75% of their game is really worth more teams playing.  They all take two strike approaches, even their 3,4 and 5 guys. They hit the other way with men on. And as a team they only go for theirs when the game situation says it's okay. It's impressive to see an entire team buy into it.  But the other 25% is pure crap.

I would never suggest anyone in today's game, hit a batter. Too many consequences.  Most kids are too nice to do it anyway, and it would probably bother them more than the guy who got hit.

@HSDad22, I feel your pain. There is a similar program in North Texas that is very successful. 75% of what they do is very impressive but the other 25% makes you want to go after them hard.  To address your question about whether any of today’s umpires would look the other way I think you know the answer. It is no. Today’s umpires aren’t as good as yesterday’s. They don’t understand the game as well. And they have to deal with too much nonsense from fans, players and coaches. Lots of them show up at the HS field looking for an issue to let them flex their muscles. And it’s hard to blame them. As for a practical solution to the situation you posed, I think it depends on the behavior of the batter. If it’s a legit “show bunt” just throw a strike (as already mentioned). If their is bush league BS that goes along with it, I wouldn’t hit him but I would sure knock him down. But then, I’m old school too and believe the game needs to return to more self policing. People that disregard the unwritten rules of baseball don’t understand that unwritten rules evolved to maintain a gentleman’s game that was competitive while maintaining respect for the game and for your opponent. That is something the game of baseball, and society, needs more of.

The worst is having to play on "that" team (or your kid plays on it). They are also usually the team with the loud, obnoxious dugout. I understand the frustration. I think the best solution is quality pitching and even better defense.

I despise the loud dugout stuff.  I know it happens in college but it is normally trash talk that cannot be heard in stands.  I hate the softball mentality that is creeping into HS baseball.  I've told some of my parents that they need to stop encouraging their younger players to do cheers.  Teach them to encourage but lose the cheer stuff.  My college softball coach son hates cheers and almost won't allow it.  He has taught them more the baseball stuff.  Which can also be considered bush league by some but I think it is old school baseball.

Tell an umpire you’re going to hit a batter, then do it guarantees getting tossed.

Tune out the antics. Beat them at their own game. If hitters are squaring to take use their bat for a target and throw a strike.

The only time to come up and in on a hitter is when you know they’re bunting. You want the hitter on edge or get him popping up (pushing up on the bunt).

@HSDad22 posted:

I was never worried about a runner on base, one base at a time.  But they may be worried about taking one off the face to get there, if they could get up.  If they were dumb enough to continue that strategy, you can't intimidate an idiot, so I'd made my point and then just pitch.  But putting a guy on base never bothered me early in a game.

OK cool just because it didn't bother you makes it a sound strategy.  The MLB average for first batters reaching base and scoring is around 30% and I'm sure that percentage is similar as you move down levels of baseball.  That's still a fairly high percentage when you could have avoided it.

Why do you (or your son's team) get to be the arbiter of what's bush league.  Bush league events are things that happen you have very little control of other than just being better than them.  You don't like teams doing perceived bush league antics then be better than them and stop them.

Putting guys on because you don't like what they do is not a smart strategy.  Tell the umpire you're going to hit them is an even worse strategy.  Without looking it up I'm fairly confident all levels of baseball you WILL be ejected if the umpire determines you hit a batter on purpose.  So why would you tell them that?

This whole thread is fairly ridiculous

@HSDad22 posted:

I was never worried about a runner on base, one base at a time.  But they may be worried about taking one off the face to get there, if they could get up.  If they were dumb enough to continue that strategy, you can't intimidate an idiot, so I'd made my point and then just pitch.  But putting a guy on base never bothered me early in a game.

So, you are ok with injuring a kid because the team you are playing is doing something that you don't like?  I've had a HS player hit in the head.  He almost died and had to have a plate put in his head.  My daughter was hit in the face two times off of a batted ball.  As a parent, I was scared and knew she was really hurt.  You're ok with this?

No one should play the game to hurt players.  It is especially terrifying when you have a player hit in the face and they are instantly blind.  I had that happen to a player when I coached in the former Soviet Union.  The doctors had to determine just how extensive the injury was and whether they had to open my player's skull to alleviate the pressure of the swelling. 

Again, there is no place for throwing at a player because you don't like the strategy employed by the coach. 

Interesting thread. I can’t think of anything good that comes from intentionally dotting a kid, but many bad things can happen. I’ve always been a very competitive person. I believe that any time someone’s actions cause me to behave in a manner inconsistent with who I strive to be, I have lost. I try very hard not to lose.

Groove one... batter will be pi$$ed he missed a chance to launch a fat one ;-).  I may not like the tactic by the team at bat, but the best I can do is call the pitch a strike, just give me the chance to do that.  Hitting the batter means I'd have to judge an attempt was made to bunt the ball when the batter got hit (e.g. strike, stay here), but that can lead to a conversation with the HC of the offense and some jeers from the uninformed.

@JohnF posted:

Groove one... batter will be pi$$ed he missed a chance to launch a fat one ;-).  I may not like the tactic by the team at bat, but the best I can do is call the pitch a strike, just give me the chance to do that.  Hitting the batter means I'd have to judge an attempt was made to bunt the ball when the batter got hit (e.g. strike, stay here), but that can lead to a conversation with the HC of the offense and some jeers from the uninformed.

Yeah, I get it.  I do wish more umpires would call a strike on the guy hanging over the strike zone with their elbow guards on as they lean into the pitch, vs just sending them down to first.

@coach2709 posted:

This whole thread is fairly ridiculous

I thought I was the only one with that thought.

@HSDad22

I noticed that your question was regarding what a college umpire would do (not HS). Which is it?

If college, do you actually think that an umpire who has worked his butt off to make it to that level is going to think what is asked would be ok?

Not a chance! Especially those guys who work in certain conferences.

Just an FYI, umpires have to answer to inquiries as to balls and strikes recorded through trackman, so they don't award or like to give free passes.

@TPM posted:

@HSDad22

I noticed that your question was regarding what a college umpire would do (not HS). Which is it?

If college, do you actually think that an umpire who has worked his butt off to make it to that level is going to think what is asked would be ok?

Not a chance! Especially those guys who work in certain conferences.

Just an FYI, umpires have to answer to inquiries as to balls and strikes recorded through trackman, so they don't award or like to give free passes.

okay, so I did mention that I was THINKING to myself and wondered what a college ump might say if someone were to say that to him.  It was not in any way trying to determine if someone should say that to an ump.  It is ridiculous.  No umpire today is going to give the green light to knocking a guy down,  maybe the question should have been what an umpire would like to be able to say.