The Damage is Done!

CoachB,

I think that is a great - and gentle reminder - to all baseball parents.

I was at a HS game earlier this week - and throughout the entire game - several parents were yelling out instructions to their 18 year old sons. I cringed with every comment.

I think that type of behavior really has its origins in the selfishness of the parent. You probably need a psychiatrist to figure at why that selfishness exists. But I do believe that is the origin.

And I cringe every time I hear the comments - wondering how the kid in the field feels when he sees Mom and/or Dad opening their mouths - and embarassing themselves - their kid and the school.

Parents ARE much savvier now. Years ago, only a few parents-mostly former players or die-hard fans--would dare consider themselves experts.

Today parents read books, attend their kids' lessons (and take notes which I used to do), follow the travel team, watch 52 weeks of ball on TV or even the web, watch reruns of their kids' games and participate in online forums like HSBBW.

The gap has narrowed between what parents know and what coaches know. On balance that has benefited HS ball. Kids entering 9th grade have received quality support from parents.

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would never affect the child's playing time if they are better than another.

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The gap has narrowed between what parents know and what coaches know. On balance that has benefited HS ball. Kids entering 9th grade have received quality support from parents.

This may be true but it has nothing to do with respect shown to the coach and your son. A knowlegeble parent should stay out of the coaches business. Sometimes you see things that defy your logic but you stay out of it.

Let us not forget that there are those parents out there that are never satisfied with any part of their lives at any time. It really wouldn't matter if it was baseball, the sack boy at the grocery, or their boss at work.... no one else seems to get it like they do!

For some, their child could be drafted in the third round and they'd be able to find something negative or blame someone that he wasn't gone in the first. As they say "there's just no pleasing some people". It's very true!

The worst part IMO is the kid who suffers because of the parents ill behavior.
When the parent crosses the line to such extent that their bad behavior overflows to the point where the coach can no longer look at the player without a negative feeling. The kid becomes labled as the " Player with the pain-in-the-rumpus-parents " who are a continuous thorn in his side.

Thus the player suffers and perhaps he/she is simply a victim of being stuck between a rock and a hard place.

The player knows he has to go home and live with mom and dad, yet also knows he needs to listen to his coach. He is forced to make a choice between the two, yet knows no matter what he does, he's going to hear about it one way or another.

Hard spot for a kid to be in, IMHO.
Sad spot for a kid to be in, IMHO.



We've all seen it before. Coach tells the player to do something,..dad/mom stands up and yells at son to do something else. Son looks up in the stands with that look on his face. ( makes my stomach grind and my brain twinge just thinking about it. )

SSMom - That is so sad for a kid in that predictament.

When my son was younger, there was a kid that didn't make the HS team. His dad wrote a horribly nasty letter with all kinds of accusations and bitterness which he emailed to all the parents of kids who did make the team. My son is sitting at lunch with the son of this whacko while several other kids start with "did you hear about some kid who didn't make the team and his dad sent out...". These other kids weren't baseball kids and had no idea the kid they were referencing was sitting right there. My son felt terrible for him... but think about how the kid felt himself! So very sad!!

Ohhh Lafmom,.....

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Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:

This may be true but it has nothing to do with respect shown to the coach and your son. A knowlegeble parent should stay out of the coaches business.

I'm sorry, but two things struck me very wrong with those statements.

First, respect is earned, not given.

Second, a knowledgeble parent has every right to question a coaches business, but should do so in the correct manner and not publicly. There is no guarantee that the word "coach" implies either competence or ethical behavior.

CPLZ your logic shows you just don't get it. This is why the problem exists to the extent it does.
There isn't one parent who doesn't think they are right and totally justified.
Our coaches take the job and deserve respect and to be able to run the club as they see fit. You don't like what they are doing remove your son and move on.
Our coaches would ban the parent from the game and the park. Show up and your son sits.

Agree Bobblehead - We've all got our opinions but its oftentimes best just to keep them to ourselves and see how things work out instead of poisoning the well with our son, his friends, the coaches and other players. I thought this thread was about the effect on the player? I think some parents have to take a long hard look at themselves, and not blame the coaches.

do you suppose a parent is sitting in his son's classes.cheering him on during test's? or telling the teacher he's teaching the class wrong, if not then leave the kids alone and let them learn on there own. many , many ,more lessons learned on the baseball field than just baseball imho. i have heard many scouts tell story's of parents actions causing players to drop in the draft or not get drafted at all. the apple theory i guess.

more often than not bad things happen on that slippery slope.

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by cpl: There is no guarantee that the word "coach" implies either competence or ethical behavior.

I sure won't agrue with that, but the word "coach" does guarantee that he selects the roster & fills out the line-up

you could offer your opinions his incompetence & ethical shortcomings and then find yourself on the outside looking in ... what was it that ya accomplished?

There are good coaches and bad coaches.

What a parent has to recognize is, there are some things you can control and some you cannot. You may think you know more than the coach, and in some cases you may even be right. But the powers that be put him in charge, not you. Even if you can't bring yourself to respect him, you have to know your place, and you have to know how to behave yourself. Unfortunately we live in an era where even the most basic rules of personal behavior seem all too frequently to have been forgotten.

I love going to the games. It's a fan's prerogative to second-guess the coaches and kibitz on games. But screaming stuff at coaches or players is out of line. It should go without saying that of all people, the parents should know to set an example for their sons' future behavior. It should go without saying, but it doesn't.

Hovering around practices is a NO NO NO NO. You are just asking for trouble. If nothing else the other players are likely to pick on your son because you can't cut the apron strings.

I do agree with the sentiment above, that a coach who would punish a kid just because his dad is a jerk is likewise a jerk. That kid cannot control his parent. Give the kid a break. Coach, you have to hear that parent a few hours a week, but the player has to go home to hear that same kind of stuff every night and weekend. If the kid misbehaves, then disciplinary action is called for. But if I am not my brother's keeper, then I certainly am not my father's, either.

There is a line to be drawn. If your disagreements with the coaches are over things like who's playing vs. who's not, how the lineups are made, or other strategic and subjective things, then you need to learn to shut the heck up. You may think you know it all, but trust me, you don't. You may think your kid is great, but he may be underperforming in practices or even creating bad blood on the bench. Someone whom you may remember as not so great from Little League or youth travel ball may have blossomed and be tearing the cover off the ball in practices. YOU DON'T KNOW. So cut the guy who does know some slack.

I do think you can and should intervene if your son's well being is at risk. I think it is appropriate, for example, for a parent to insist that a coach observe proper rest intervals and pitch counts for pitchers. This topic can be raised politely, but if you are ignored, then you may need to take sterner action. Truly untoward behavior by a coach should also be dealt with, albeit through proper channels. E.g., abusive or profane language. Every place of work has bad apple employees and if your son's coach is one of them, you may well be justified in taking strong action -- as long as you handle yourself like a mature adult in the process.

Last year, my son's high school coach was a complete idiot. He knew nothing about baseball, had no background in the game, yet he had a controlling and punitive attitude towards his players. Wouldn't even listen to his assistants, one of whom played D-1 and pro ball. The team actually did reasonably well, but anyone who knew our talent level would say we underperformed.

And yet, several players on this team have been heavily recruited by colleges. Including one very good pitcher who barely saw the mound last year.

So everybody, towel off. The difference in whether you win those few extra games doesn't amount to a hill of beans over the long run -- not for the elite players who move on to the next level, and certainly not for the vast majority of players who won't.

But the example we set for our own children is never missed by them, and that makes an imprint that lasts a lifetime, both in terms of who they become, and what our relationships with them are like until we pass on.

P.S.

We got a new coach this year, and it's like a cloud lifted. Yay! Hope springs eternal for all of us!

Great points. The coach must be respected and the team always comes first, before the player, even if it's your son.

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But the example we set for our own children is never missed by them, and that makes an imprint that lasts a lifetime, both in terms of who they become, and what our relationships with them are like until we pass on.

A heavy and true point MidloDad.
Great post!

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Let us not forget that there are those parents out there that are never satisfied with any part of their lives at any time. It really wouldn't matter if it was baseball, the sack boy at the grocery, or their boss at work.... no one else seems to get it like they do!

For some, their child could be drafted in the third round and they'd be able to find something negative or blame someone that he wasn't gone in the first. As they say "there's just no pleasing some people". It's very true!

lafmom, how true. Last week, my husband was trying to encourage one of our players who was going through a mini-slump. The player seemed especially heartened by his encouragement and commented, "With my dad, even if I go 2 for 4, it's still not good enough."

How sad....

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Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
CPLZ your logic shows you just don't get it. This is why the problem exists to the extent it does.
There isn't one parent who doesn't think they are right and totally justified.
Our coaches take the job and deserve respect and to be able to run the club as they see fit. You don't like what they are doing remove your son and move on.
Our coaches would ban the parent from the game and the park. Show up and your son sits.

Bobblehead,
How could you possibly know what I get and what I don't from two sentences.

There are situations where the coach acts unethically, and there is no grey between right and wrong. To listen to many of the parents here, they counsel that we should ignore the problem and show our children that standing up for right and wrong is not something that should be done if it means personal sacrifice. The word for that is coward. To ignore the problem is to condone it and the coaches actions.

There is a right way and wrong way to handle such issues, and the right way is not to bury our heads in the sand in favor of not hurting our sons chances with playing time. Any coach that would penalize a player for his parents actions is the type of coach that doesn't belong in the profession.

There is a right way to disagree with a person and it shouldn't have repercussions. Coaches should also be accountable for their actions, and making them such is not wrong.

Issues like playing time and situational use are petty and best left unsaid. A coach is responsible for the development of character and influential in the creation of a citizen. There are standards to which he should be held on that basis.

And FYI, I have talked to school administrators about the performance of a teacher in the past when I felt it appropriate.

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Originally posted by BeenthereIL:

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It didn't endear that parent to me. It did affect the child.

Says it all about you as a "coach".

Surely you must admit that many "coaches" don't know the game that they are coaching? Have their own "favorites"? Have gotten the job because they know the AD? Are in a school where winning doesn't matter?

Sounds like you had "rabbit ears"...which resulted in your losing objectivity!

Punishing a kid because you don't like his father commenting about your coaching skills is something an immature person would do...Moreover, the father was probably right and you were wrong!

Gees.

In all due respect, I did not take CoachB's example that the player was benched because of what the dad did or didn't do, but that the father's interference during the game affected the son's game.
I read over the post a few times, that is how I interpretated it.

TPM ...

I think you hit the nail on the head with your understanding of the comment 'It did affect the child'. Not that the coach was vengeful but that the player was stuck between the proverbial rock and hard spot, because he had 2 authority figures to contend with (and probably was more capable of showing respect than the dad .... my comment), and his game suffered because of it.

Something tells me that CoachB is above retribution against a player because of a parent.

Deleted!



I've edited this post.
Simply put, I didn't bench the kid because I was made at the parent. I benched the kid because he listen to his Dad and took shots that were not in our offense.


I didn't say that all coaches are good. I didn't say that I was good. Obviously I've made some errors. However, the coach is the coach and so, in the scenerio I started with, that Dad and his intervention did negatively impact the kid because the kid was torn on what to do so he listen to the parent. If you don't like or agree with the coach, you have to ask yourselves are your actions a help or hinderance. Make your next move based upon that decision.

FBM,
Did you also notice that it was basketball he was referring to?

Oh, yes and no ... I noticed it, and then forgot it, but nonetheless ... is that a sport too?

I've gone back and re read my original post. In no way could it be misconstured that I punished the kid because of the parent. In fact, the quote in the original post is, "that his child took shots out of the offense, that child hit the bench." Again, the attack on me and my actions makes me wonder as to the merits of the attack of those posters that took the shots unless of course they would have allowed these actions if they were the coach.

Anyone close to our program could mention an incident last year where we had a parent really cross the line. To say the least, there was a scene. However, that child was never punished.

No coach is above reproach. We are public servants. However, the point of my first post was in response to what another Dad posted on another site where he crossed the line and can't make things right with the coach. Ironcially it turns to attacks on me. Again, I find this odd.

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Originally posted by FutureBack.Mom:
Oh, yes and no ... I noticed it, and then forgot it, but nonetheless ... is that a sport too?

I didn't notice either.

But we got the main idea, I think because we have different hormones, ahhhh... genetic makeup.

Coach B,
Faced that same scenario in basketball around a dozen times...parents hollering instructions from the stands.

Each time, I had a talk with the parent. I told them that on the floor their son is expected only to follow my instructions. If their son did things contrary to the coaches at the urging of their parents, they would be pulled from the game at that point and told they are not to follow any instructions other than the coaches. I always had the first conversation with the parent, so that they could have the opportunity to modify their behavior first. Only after that, would I put the decision in the players hands to follow the coaches or parents instruction. Only in a couple of instances did the parents continue to coach from the stands. In both cases, the kid ignored the parent. Other players on the team helped too. They knew what was going on and encouraged the kids to ignore their parents.


There really is no totally fair way to handle it that I have found, but the most fair way is the one that benefits the team to the highest degree possible.

CPLZ

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And FYI, I have talked to school administrators about the performance of a teacher in the past when I felt it appropriate

I am shocked.
No not really.
Everything you said in that post tells me that you don't get it. Behaving like that in the military would have dire results.
I could tell stories about parents like this for hours. One of my favorites was a coach going out to replace a pitcher who was in trouble after pitching a few innings. The player 17U argued on the mound and dropped the ball and walked away. As the coach approached the pitcher you could hear the father yelling from behind the backstop to throw the ball at the coach. The pitcher who was going into the duggout fired his glove into the duggout with all his might not caring who it hit. There are 3 concrete steps into the dugout and he lost his balance and fell on his butt banging down each step. Embarased and encouraged by his parents he packed it in right in the middle of the game. A couple years later I noticed he was on ateam we were playing. He started the game and got roughed up. After the inning was mercifully over I hear this loud bang in the duggout. I asked is that so and so. Everyone nodded yes. Somethings never change. His parents encouraged that behavior and they didn't get it either.

"Our coaches would ban the parent from the game and the park. Show up and your son sits."

CoachB25, my comment above referred to this quote from Bobbleheaddoll, and not from anything you said.

And I understand that BBD is talking about other coaches, and not his own doings. So I'm not addressing any of the posters here.

I am saying that a coach who would punish a player for something his parent did, when the player has no control over the parent's actions, is in the wrong. Generally we don't punish kids when they themselves are not doing anything wrong. And more, we should think about supporting the unfortunate player who has to suffer through an insufferable parent.

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Everything you said in that post tells me that you don't get it. Behaving like that in the military would have dire results.

FYI,
I served my country in the military, so please, no sermons about how I might fare, I did fine.

I don't know why you'd bring up such poor behavior by both a player and his parents, and try to attach that somehow to anything I have said. I have never been party to any behavior such as you've described, and my son, has never thrown a tantrum or been disrespectful to any coach, administrator or umpire.

My point all along has been that there is a proper way to approach these problems and a chain of command to appeal to. None of it has to be public, or contentious, although it sometimes seems unavoidable.

I've seen the same type of abbhorent behavior you've described as intolerable from coaches. I've also witnessed much subtler and more harmful types of behavior.

It would seem Bobblehead, that I really don't have an issue with getting it. I understand not only proper etiquitte and behavior as a coach, having been one for over two decades, but also how to handle problem issues in a manner which is not only within the bounds of proper channels, but effective in elliciting change. Being a coach means you are going to be asked hard questions. There's nothing wrong with that. Coaches who do it right have no problem answering them.


I never did understand the element that says, "coaches are always right, and if they aren't, it's not my job to change it." Just who's job is the welfare of our kids?

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Originally posted by CoachB25:
Deleted!



I've edited this post.
Simply put, I didn't bench the kid because I was made at the parent. I benched the kid because he listen to his Dad and took shots that were not in our offense.

I didn't say that all coaches are good. I didn't say that I was good. Obviously I've made some errors. However, the coach is the coach and so, in the scenerio I started with, that Dad and his intervention did negatively impact the kid because the kid was torn on what to do so he listen to the parent. If you don't like or agree with the coach, you have to ask yourselves are your actions a help or hinderance. Make your next move based upon that decision.

CoachB,
Don't be upset some of us got it.

quote:

No coach is above reproach. We are public servants. However, the point of my first post was in response to what another Dad posted on another site where he crossed the line and can't make things right with the coach. Ironcially it turns to attacks on me. Again, I find this odd.

The parent doesn't need to make it right. He or She need's to shut-up.
There player will have many, many coaches in the future if there player keeps playing.
The sooner the parent figure's that out the better for the player.
Trust me, I've made every mistake in the book and then some.
Both as a Coach and a Parent of a player.
I was slapped with Reality early enough not to cause to much harm to my player, And he came out of it OK.

So for your players sake stay out of the coaches business.
It has nothing to do with you.
It's your players game not yours.
EH

To me, it is like disciplining your children at home ... from early on, they need to understand that there are consequences for specific misbehaviors, and they need to understand exactly what those consequences are. Parents then need to ensure that they are being fair (does the punishment match the crime) and they need to be consistent.

How does this relate to this topic? Well, our son's high school coach took that same basic approach to his players and their parents every year at the parents' meeting: everything was spelled out loud and clear, as to what was acceptable and what was not, both for the players AND the parents. It was never reiterated during the season ... it wasn't necessary because his behavior in the past spoke for itself and people knew that he was consistent, year after year. Granted, he was not the perfect coach ... he had his quirks and did some things that we didn't think were 'good' but it was more in terms of how he worked with the players OFF the field, how he gave them feedback etc. But that was our son's burden to bear, much like he will have to bear in all aspects of his life and future. He needs to do what it takes to get his job done properly with the authority figures he has to work with ... coaches, managers, bosses, etc.

Yes we discussed things at home that we thought could have been done differently, even going so far as to second guess the coach once in a while ... (well, okay, more than once in a while but I digress). But above all else, our son was expected to show respect to his coach(es), and as his roll models, we showed respect to the coaches. And as long as the coach wasn't doing anything immortal, illegal, or unsafe, we would have never interfered or tried to usurp the coach's authority. (Besides, we knew what he would do ... he was, above all else, a man of his word.)

This Saturday morining my son and I arrived early for his hitting session. The coach was giving a hitting clinic to a group of 11 years old. I watched as it was fun to think of my now 15 year old at that age. As the coach was soft tossing to one child, his mom was just outside the cage giving her son instructions over the coaches own instructions. She was very vocal and non stop. I felt bad for her son as you could see he was struggling with who to listen to, but most of all I felt embarrassed for the mom. I could acutaly see her body tense up with each swing her son took. Sounded like she had done a lot of research on hitting via the internet. This coach played four years of college ball and some pro ball. In discussing this event with the coach at the end of my sons hitting lession, he said after while he kept quiet so the 11 year old could concentrate on his mom. The coach said to himself why did she pay good money for instruction and then ignore that instruction. I wish someone would video her so she could see how she was affecting her son and the coach. I am sure at the time she she thought she was doing nothing wrong. I could see the begining of a know more than the coach and complaining parnet. Good luck to the coach that has this child in HS.

My son and I have recently been put in a situation to second guess his JV coach and complain about his ability. Son as a freshman played every inning at third on the JV team. As a sophmore once again is the starter at 3rd. On more that one occasion the new coach for no reason we can think of has taken son out of game after a couple of innings and replaced him with a left handed throwing player. A left handed third base. Has anyone heard of such a thing? Both son and myself are not happy when the coach does this. In discussing this with my son we both decided not to complain or be upset because it would do us no good and probaly cause more harm than help. We also decided that niether of us would enjoy this year of BB if we were upset or mad with the coach and his decisions. Are we cowards? No. Do we know more about baseball? Maybe not. Are we taking the high road? I think so. Will we be happy with this year and have fun? YES! Will my son be a better person from dealing with this? Yes. I am happy that I was not like that parent I described above when my son was 11 so now in HS ball I am not that parent complaining and yelling instructions from the bleachers.

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Originally posted by FutureBack.Mom:
he was, above all else, a man of his word.)

FB.Mom:

Just curious, how would you have handled the situation if the coach was NOT a man of his word--if he would have said and then done totally opposite things?

I mean in general, not in a situation of butting in or anything....What if you can't trust the coach? And moving is not an option?

playbaseball ...

We had a similar situation in travel ball and altho I know it does not have the same ramifications as dealing with a high school coach who is not totally honest, nevertheless our son had to learn another one of life's ugly lessons: people cannot always be trusted, that is a fact of life, and because there are no options available to leave the situation, we would have told him to suck it up and take it like a man. (He indeed had to do that with the travel team as he encountered former teammates at tournaments, regular season games, etc.)

If he had had to deal with a crummy dishonest school coach, we would always give him a soft place to fall when he was struggling with the situation(s), but still taught him how to pick himself up and go on. And we would have assured him that he had the choice of continuing or leaving the high school game (because we had no choice but that school environment). We would have supported him in his decision, even if he would have elected to leave baseball. Fortunately, he didn't have to 'go there' but if he had, we would have just been as honest with him, as supportive of him, as we could be under the circumstances but make it very clear that going elsewhere was NOT an option.

FutureBack.Mom

Thanks for the reply.

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by gimages: coach was soft tossing to one child, his mom was just outside the cage giving her son instructions over the coaches own instructions. She was very vocal and non stop. I felt bad for her son as you could see he was struggling with who to listen to

why not just stroll over to her area & strike up a conversation with her about something - then everyone is happy

This is an entirely different age when it comes to parents and coaches.

Where I come from the parents are fans and nothing more---they don't talk to the players during the games; they don't come near the dugout during games; they do not question coaches decisions.

But then there is no longer respect for the police or any authoritative figure so why have respect for coaches. If I ever cpomplained to my Dad about palying time his answer would have been a very simple--"well perhaps you need to work harder"---not I will talk to the coach and see what we can do about it

CoachB - Excellent topic. I was at a basketball tourney not too long ago and some of those same type of parents of the opposing players were directly behind me screaming directives to their sons. Yes, we moved but I can imagine it's frustrating as a coach, especially at the HS age!

But here's maybe a slightly different situation. Saturday my 14u son was pitching in the back yard and working on his grips. He's been struggling with his change up so he wanted to concentrate on it for a while. During the workout, he recalled a pointer his pitching instructor had given him so he made the adjustment and....VOILA...it was working much better. So my son said to me "Dad, if you see me struggling during a game throwing it, remind me to do this".

So what about a prent blurting out a verbal que to remind their son of something the coach may not be privy to from private instruction?

Like...for instance..."Remember to floss son...daily...the way I instructed you!"

... ...