Teaching Elder posted:There have been literally thousands of innocent people who have signed a confession of guilt. The legal system is often not just. DAs want to close cases and save money. They pressure some guy to plead guilty to avoid a much harsher punishment. People facing daunting circumstantial evidence plead guilty when innocent more often than you think.
Just because innocent people have signed confessions is not evidence he’s one of them. Until something changes he’s guilty.
SomeBaseballDad posted:RJM posted:Teaching Elder posted:He’s a good kid. He’s innocent. His coaches and teammates know it, and they are willin to go to the mat for the guy. The kid may have his life ruined, but I don’t think it is going to ruin his life.
He’s not innocent. There’s a signed confession of guilt.
Hypothetical
You're a young father of two on your way home after a hard day at work. You stop at a bar to drink a beer or two. As will happen you get into a heated argument with someone who's clearly drank two much. It's broken up, you finish your beer and leave. The man follows you out the door, the bartender sees him and calls the police. In the parking lot he confronts you, words are exchanged, he pulls a gun, you grab the gun, after a struggle the gun goes off and the guy falls dead at your feet. About that time the police pull in and find you holding a gun over a dead man. Fast forward to the prosecutor's office. He says plead to man 2, he'll ask for 5-7, you'll serve 2-3 and get on with your life. If you go to trial he'll seek murder charges and you'll serve at least 35 years behind bars. What are you going to do?
It’s not what happened. The question is given the real circumstances does someone sign him? Does how he’s received in Omaha by the crowd affect the decision? These are real questions working off facts rather than hypotheticals.
That's why it would be a hypothetical.
TPM wrote, "You folks need to get over this and move on."
I couldn't agree more.
We should move on from the absurdities. When I started the thread it was to deal with the realities, not hypothetical murders or whether unicorns fart hundred dollar bills.
The draft was coming up when I started this thread. Would Heimlich be drafted? The answer turned out to be no. There has to be teams still considering Heimlich. A reality is he will be taking the mound today. A interesting aspect of this from a scouting standpoint will be how a nonpartisan crowd responds.
I figure he receives a) a courtesy clap, b) indifference, or c) boo’ed. A relevant question is how do MLB organizations react to Heimlich’s reception? If he isn’t boo’ed does some franchise decide to take a chance on him? I believe this is a relevant baseball questions.
Whether he’s guilty or not is a non issue unless he gets the decision overturned. Whether or not he’s signed I can understand either side of the decision.
Question for Pac 12 people: How was Heimlich received as a visiting starting pitcher during the season? How many fans were in attendance?
RJM posted:We should move on from the absurdities. When I started the thread it was to deal with the realities, not hypothetical murders or whether unicorns fart hundred dollar bills.
I'm sure situations like I describe take place every day. Innocent people plead guilty Why do you (and others here) insist that it can't possibly be the case with this kid.? That some can't accept he may be innocent or that he must pay some price beyond what the court system has set forth is why this thread/subject won't go away
RJM posted:We should move on from the absurdities. When I started the thread it was to deal with the realities, not hypothetical murders or whether unicorns fart hundred dollar bills.
The draft was coming up when I started this thread. Would Heimlich be drafted? The answer turned out to be no. There has to be teams still considering Heimlich. A reality is he will be taking the mound today. A interesting aspect of this from a scouting standpoint will be how a nonpartisan crowd responds.
I figure he receives a) a courtesy clap, b) indifference, or c) boo’ed. A relevant question is how do MLB organizations react to Heimlich’s reception? If he isn’t boo’ed does some franchise decide to take a chance on him? I believe this is a relevant baseball questions.
Whether he’s guilty or not is a non issue unless he gets the decision overturned. Whether or not he’s signed I can understand either side of the decision.
Question for Pac 12 people: How was Heimlich received as a visiting starting pitcher during the season? How many fans were in attendance?
You posted a very polarizing topic. Logic would say that the commentary on the topic would be emotionally charged. You don’t get to dictate what part of the issue people want to comment on. It’s obvious that there are more than a few schools of thought. Btw, I am offended by your use of the term “ unicorn.”
RJM posted:
I figure he receives a) a courtesy clap, b) indifference, or c) boo’ed. A relevant question is how do MLB organizations react to Heimlich’s reception? If he isn’t boo’ed does some franchise decide to take a chance on him? I believe this is a relevant baseball questions.
Question for Pac 12 people: How was Heimlich received as a visiting starting pitcher during the season? How many fans were in attendance?
I saw OSU play Cal at Berkeley Saturday after he pitched Friday. I talked to a few people who were at Friday's game and nobody mentioned anything about it. Just that it was a really good game and a tough loss. But there are a few loudmouths who always go to Cal games so no doubt there was some noise. But a lot of OSU fans travel with the team so it probably went both ways.
As for what he receives today and in the future, c) booed is one thing and d) booed incessantly for 9 innings and possibly have stuff thrown at you is another. But there are only a handful of parks in the country that draw crowds large enough and boisterous enough to be a concern. I think MiLB reception would be a bigger problem for him than MLB
I still think he'll end up playing for a couple years in another country and be signed to play here when he's ready for the Majors.
It is simply a fact that people plead guilty who don’t believe they are. It happens a lot. How do I know? I was an investigator and was part of this process numerous times. “If you plead guilty the DA will not recommend jail time. You will save your family the embarrassment of a public trial. You will not have to risk the consequences of a trial.” Many times people will opt out for numerous reasons. And your talking about a 15 year old in a situation like this? Would any family want this and all the details public?
Again I have no idea if he is guilty. A confession by a 15 year old kid means he is either guilty or the extenuating circumstances caused him to get advice that led to a confession. My point of contention is and always will be this. If he is set free then he should be free. He should be given an opportunity to prove himself worthy of being free. Otherwise he should never be set free.
i will not judge him or anyone else based on their past especially at 15. I believe I would rather forgive and give him an opportunity and be wrong than not and be wrong. That’s just me and I will sleep quite well knowing I gave opportunity instead of denying it. I understand everyone has an opinion and I respect that. Everything is not as black and white as we sometimes want to see it. Something doesn’t smell right to me and I would rather err on the side of forgiveness and understanding than judgement and condemnation.
I wont post again on this topic. Let me just say but for the grace of God there go I. If he did this he should never be free. That fact is if the system set him free he should be allowed to be free. JMO - MLB can do what they want. IMO we should set him free if the system set him free. Otherwise there is no point in it.
I think Coach May might have posted this before. It was then and is now the end of the story. The kid served society's duly approved sentence. Tetelesti. It is finished. Let him go on with his life. We cannot as a society tolerate extra-judicial or vigilante justice.
How can it happen? Our criminal legal system is a negotiation between the state and the accused, not a system based on trial by a jury as peers. The state threatens the maximum sentence as a possible outcome, and then offers a much reduced, but certain outcome.
I'm not deep into Heimlich case in particular, (that means I haven't read any of the links or write-ups of the story) but it did spur me enough to look up facts on plea deals. Here is an excerpt from "Plea and Charge Bargaining" (link attached)...
According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics (2005), in 2003 there were 75,573 cases disposed of in federal district court by trial or plea. Of these, about 95 percent were disposed of by a guilty plea (Pastore and Maguire, 2003). While there are no exact estimates of the proportion of cases that are resolved through plea bargaining, scholars estimate that about 90 to 95 percent of both federal and state court cases are resolved through this process (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 2005; Flanagan and Maguire, 1990).
https://www.bja.gov/Publicatio...gResearchSummary.pdf
Ninety to ninety-five percent. Wow.
Give me 25% of your money, or I may take all of it.
Most court settlements are typically a benefit to the defendant. It saves court costs and prevents trial schedules from backing up. It also saves defendants a lot of money. A first time offender of a crime has a better shot of receiving a lower sentence than a multiple time offender.
The risk/reward factor of sentencing and legal costs sometimes comes into the decision making. These aren’t decisions you want to be making without competent legal counsel.
Royals considering signing controversial Oregon State pitcher Luke Heimlich
It didn’t take long for the first “don’t do it” column ...
I think the royals just put it out to test how much of a public backlash there is.
It is simply a decision of the damage in public relations and marketing (ethics don't really play a role in ecomomy) vs the gain of cheap talent.
I tend to think the damage might be greater than the gain but the decision is on the teams.
I certainly didn't notice less attendance in Omaha during the OSU games.
Well there is a lot more to mlb marketing than just attendance. (things like sponsors, media relationships and other stuff matter too). This is a lot more complex in mlb than in ncaa.
Of course I can't guarantee it will be a net negative to sign him, just a feeling. That is why marketing experts will analyze it, in the end the decision will be purely driven by dollar expectations
TPM posted:I certainly didn't notice less attendance in Omaha during the OSU games.
He wasn’t signed to play in Omaha and be part of the Omaha community. I do believe not being boo’ed played in his favor as a minor test reaction for MLB franchises consideration of signing him. If he were to sign with the Royals he would come through Omaha (AAA).
Dominik85 posted:Well there is a lot more to mlb marketing than just attendance. (things like sponsors, media relationships and other stuff matter too). This is a lot more complex in mlb than in ncaa.
Of course I can't guarantee it will be a net negative to sign him, just a feeling. That is why marketing experts will analyze it, in the end the decision will be purely driven by dollar expectations
It’s why he won’t be signed by big dollar teams who would rather sign a free agent than take the risk.
I am pretty sure he has an agent and there is a lot of discussion going on behind the scenes.
Bolts-Coach-PR posted:
What a shame.
Well, it looks like his professional life playing baseball are over. Maybe he can get a job in a KFC or washing cars (maybe)...
Hell maybe someone will just pop a cap in him. I mean he's got it coming right?
SomeBaseballDad posted:Hell maybe someone will just pop a cap in him. I mean he's got it coming right?
You taking the afternoon off to go fishing ?
Maybe the Astros will sign him to give Osuna an adequate roommate
.
I don’t know the right answer but there is such a double standard. Football players and even coaches are routinely found to have committed some pretty terrible acts and the public turns a blind eye. But they demand that this kid’s life is over.
Baseball also has plenty of guys with domestic violence playing. However Heimlich did this to a kindergarten child and not an adult. An adult like the victims of sano or Osuna still has some chance to defend himself (not during the violence but after the violence and before the next one) while a 4 year old kid can do absolutely nothing.
Because of this child abuse is (probably rightfully) more frowned upon than domestic and sexual violence on adult victims.
But yes, there is a double standard and guys like Chapman and Osuna shouldn't get a job either.
But that doesn't mean that just because some guys get by everyone should.
what did Osuna do exactly? from what i have read they have been very tight lipped. He has been charged with 1 count with the lowest assault charge you can get in Canada. but due to the Canadian court system no one knows any details. His lawyers advised him to take the 75 game suspension rather than fight it.
Heimlich Contract Falls Through
https://www.gazettetimes.com/s...3a-ea5e0560c3a4.html
Moore has stated the he believes Heimlich has earned the opportunity to pitch in the pros.
It’s a matter of who is willing to risk a PR hit.
adbono posted:SomeBaseballDad posted:Hell maybe someone will just pop a cap in him. I mean he's got it coming right?
You taking the afternoon off to go fishing ?
OK, fair enough. Let's try this. Over the course of three or four threads, more than a few posters have stated they don't believe justice was served by the courts (including the guy above who thinks a job at KFC is more than he deserves). So I'd love to hear from said posters what kind of hand karma ought to deal the young man?
This I"m sure of. They'd never admit it but a few would love to see him reoffend so they could wave it in faces here and say "told you so".
SomeBaseballDad posted:adbono posted:SomeBaseballDad posted:Hell maybe someone will just pop a cap in him. I mean he's got it coming right?
You taking the afternoon off to go fishing ?
OK, fair enough. Let's try this. Over the course of three or four threads, more than a few posters have stated they don't believe justice was served by the courts (including the guy above who thinks a job at KFC is more than he deserves). So I'd love to hear from said posters what kind of hand karma ought to deal the young man?
This I"m sure of. They'd never admit it but a few would love to see him reoffend so they could wave it in faces here and say "told you so".
You are incorrect sir. I was not opining that he does not even deserve a job at KFC, I was commenting that he might not be able to do much better than that.
Actions have consequences. He did something reprehensible, and now he's learning what the price is for his behavior. Many wondered what the tolerance of the MLB would be for those actions, and now we know (for professional baseball in China, apparently a criminal record of any kind is enough). He received a (presumably well-subsidized) degree in speech communication from OSU, an opportunity denied to many that he's fortunate to have had. He can now put his education to productive use in the world by pursuing any number of different career opportunities. They just won't include professional baseball. This is not a tragedy; this is a life lesson.
Enjoying the Ride posted:Actions have consequences. He did something reprehensible, and now he's learning what the price is for his behavior. Many wondered what the tolerance of the MLB would be for those actions, and now we know (for professional baseball in China, apparently a criminal record of any kind is enough). He received a (presumably well-subsidized) degree in speech communication from OSU, an opportunity denied to many that he's fortunate to have had. He can now put his education to productive use in the world by pursuing any number of different career opportunities. They just won't include professional baseball. This is not a tragedy; this is a life lesson.
That's funny. Why is it he can have a career in speech communication but not in baseball? That is an arbitrary position, and borders on vigilanteism. This kid paid society's prescribed penalty. Let him alone. Besides, he didn't do what he pled to when some tough guy DA was threatening with horrible things if he didn't. Read the kid's back story.
You have missed my point entirely. "Why is it he can have a career in speech communication but not in baseball?" Because no one wants to pay him to play baseball. It's that simple. That is what I mean when I say actions have consequences.
I have read the back story and personally I am not convinced of his innocence. But what you or I think doesn't matter one iota. The situation is what it is.
Regarding Osuna he was involved in a domestic violence incident against his GF. He didn't quite molest a child but I still think luhnow made a big mistake by signing osuna.
from a pure wins standpoint it made sense (more than heimlich who is just a prospect who might very well bust if given a chance) as he bought low on it but I think here luhnow overdid the analysis driven stuff to fight for every single tenth of a win at maximum efficiency.
Astros pitchers verlander and mccullers did an extremely hard attack on twitter on a minor leaguer who was filmed beating up his GF in march (like fuck off and never come back) and now verlander did take a pretty open stab at luhnow ("he didn't ask me" and he also said that luhnow generally would do his own thing generalizing this criticism).
now of course it is also not smart by verlander to openly take a stab at his GM but his attacks in march were so hard that he would have lost credibility if he had not said anything so verlander chose this route.
why did luhnow risk ruining the team chemistry of a 100 win defending WS champion just to add another win or so?
Enjoying the Ride posted:I have read the back story and personally I am not convinced of his innocence. But what you or I think doesn't matter one iota. The situation is what it is.
No, you miss the point. What you and I think does matter (specifically those who think the kid still has a price to pay for his actions). The courts have rendered their verdict, their opinions aren't the ones MLB is concerned about It's the paying public and again, not those who feel the kid has paid his debt to society and should be left alone.
No shortage of sanctimonious commentary on this subject!
In my world, I am a pastor, I remind people all the time, almost every Sunday, that God forgives sin but there are still earthly consequences. There are certain sins that require longer consequences or harsher consequences according to where you live and what those around you believe and what you did. Just because God forgives does not mean man forgets or forgives. We all come to this situation from different perspectives. Mine may be harsher or lighter than yours on this topic or others according to my stance and past experiences.
I have put much thought into this as a pastor, coach, baseball enthusiast, father, and member of society. What would I do if my son was in the same situation? Would I ever encourage or allow my son to plead guilty to something either small or big that he did not do, or even myself if he did not do it (giving him the benefit of the doubt)? And also how would I respond or do I respond to those who do or did?
There is a great amount of possibility here on so many levels. I do know that there will always be consequences for decisions and I tell my people and especially our youth this all the time. Whether it is justified or not, it is human nature. I can remember when pregnant girls or girls who had a baby were not allowed to participate in sports in my hometown just not so many years ago.
Understand that there will always be consequences for decisions whether right or wrong whether we agree with them or not. That is why our decision making process is so important. It is amazing how many life lessons I have been able to use with my son and others about decision making between this and all of the tweets from years ago that are resurfacing. Decisions have consequences.
What I find fascinating is that had he filed the right paperwork, had the state not "messed up" and released the info it would be under lock and key in a minors file and NONE of us would ever have known and he would have been drafted.
Whether he did it or not doesn't matter at this point, his career in baseball is ruined. Personally, I think he should sue the state for lost income.
