The elephant in the room returns

I read somewhere that the O's almost took him last year.  Why not?  Their fan base can't hate ownership any more than they already do.

I don't know the proper answer but I would suggest reading the Sports Illustrated article on this kid. It was well written and readily apparent to me that the author didn't want to cut the kid a break. IMO they planned on doing a typical SI hatchet job and then started asking questions, talking to people and getting more info. By the time they finished the story I felt you could read that they were also conflicted, the kid by all accounts has been a model student athlete in his time at HS and OSU. What happened? What is the right thing?

I honestly think I would take him at some point for value because it certainly appears that he is a kid capable of being solid citizen regardless of what happened...of which nobody is really 100% certain of it.

It is a story that is actually almost unbelievable from either side of the story.

old_school posted:

 

It is a story that is actually almost unbelievable from either side of the story.

Therein lies the bulk of the problem.  The kid has changed stories several times over the past 12+ months.  He has been contrite, then vindictive.  Forthcoming, then retracting.  At this point, the kid has little to no credibility and a heinous cloud of molestation hanging over his head.  This isn't the typical "Kid takes illegal benefits while in college" type of story.  And you don't need to look much further than the NFL and the serious hits they've taken as a league over spousal/partner violence as well as the political statements of INDIVIDUALS that have had a severe impact to ALL teams to understand why MLB and teams are extremely wary of taking a chance on drafting a single player.  I'll actually be a bit surprised if any team does take him in the draft.  Not saying one won't, but my guess is they'll stay away.

There are scouts who believe Heimlich would be the quickest call up to the majors of all college pitchers. Winning matters in a business. But no one player is bigger than the game. 

There’s another consideration to drafting him. Let’s say a team does select him. Does he have the mental and emotional stability to handle the verbal abuse that will be dished out by the fans and the media? He may not be safe on the streets.

If drafted low enough there will be little invested financially. From a baseball only perspective it will be little to lose and a lot to gain. 

Imagine the inverse of "Tebow Mania" that will follow this kid and each organizational stop along his path to the majors.  And then, every city the team visits once he's there.

To RJM's point, it's going to take a lot of mental fortitude from this kid to not only deal with the normal rigors of the game, but the added stress of the distractions.  It's also a lot for an organization to take on.  IMHO, there's not a player on the board worth the negative backlash that will follow for years to come.

That said, I could see the kid going undrafted, signing with an independent team, then having contract sold to a team who can then frame the story as a kid who has reformed and made well, but I think there's still some level of contrition on the kid's part to make that happen. 

One thing I am not really getting, so to the white elephant in the room, here goes.

He was 15. We have a president who has described where he grabs women, cheated on 3 different wives and he himself has been accused, as an adult, of molesting a child but they scared her before her testimony.

And he has lied over and over about it.

If he gets drafted, some team took a chance that he will help them win. People are allowed to have second chances. Good for him. 

So he will help make America great one pitch at a time...lol maybe he could become a baker...

Can we leave Bill Clinton out of this, please?  The Oval Office was a different place back then.

One thing I am not really getting, so to the white elephant in the room, here goes.

He was 15. We have a president who has described where he grabs women, cheated on 3 different wives and he himself has been accused, as an adult, of molesting a child but they scared her before her testimony.

And he has lied over and over about it.

He got drafted, some team took a chance that he will help them win. People are allowed to have second chances. God for him. 

To be honest I'm not really sure what the point is here. He was not drafted and most likely won't be. Unlike the NFL and NBA, baseball is relatively clean when it comes to PR problems. It will be hard for a family friendly crowd to root for him as their pitcher and buy his jersey. And if he never makes the majors...a PR hit all for nothing.

Either way it has nothing to do with the president and even if it did, apples to oranges as there is no relation whatsoever. 

PABaseball posted:

One thing I am not really getting, so to the white elephant in the room, here goes.

He was 15. We have a president who has described where he grabs women, cheated on 3 different wives and he himself has been accused, as an adult, of molesting a child but they scared her before her testimony.

And he has lied over and over about it.

He got drafted, some team took a chance that he will help them win. People are allowed to have second chances. God for him. 

 

To be honest I'm not really sure what the point is here. He was not drafted and most likely won't be. Unlike the NFL and NBA, baseball is relatively clean when it comes to PR problems. It will be hard for a family friendly crowd to root for him as their pitcher and buy his jersey. And if he never makes the majors...a PR hit all for nothing.

Either way it has nothing to do with the president and even if it did, apples to oranges as there is no relation whatsoever. 

I went back and corrected my post, meaning if he gets drafted, some team will take a chance on him.....

And that's my opinion and I am sticking to it. 

The more I read about him, the more I think he's guilty.  But he did do his time.  He's a very gifted athlete.  To be able to dominate college baseball with only one plus pitch is amazing.  With the low effort mechanics, he has a lot of room for more velocity.  But after going undrafted after 9 rounds, it doesn't look too good for him.  Would he be willing to sign for something minuscule if he's drafted in the 30th round?  

Nuke83 posted:

old_school posted:

 

It is a story that is actually almost unbelievable from either side of the story.

Therein lies the bulk of the problem.  The kid has changed stories several times over the past 12+ months.  He has been contrite, then vindictive.  Forthcoming, then retracting.  At this point, the kid has little to no credibility and a heinous cloud of molestation hanging over his head.  This isn't the typical "Kid takes illegal benefits while in college" type of story.  And you don't need to look much further than the NFL and the serious hits they've taken as a league over spousal/partner violence as well as the political statements of INDIVIDUALS that have had a severe impact to ALL teams to understand why MLB and teams are extremely wary of taking a chance on drafting a single player.  I'll actually be a bit surprised if any team does take him in the draft.  Not saying one won't, but my guess is they'll stay away.

There's a lot that is odd about this story. Except for a clerical error we would never know about any of this. Another thing that is odd is the girls mother says she doesn't remember it. I'm 56 and I remember parts of 1st/2nd grade. On the other hand his own brother turned him in. 

That said there's the mentality put forth in this quoted post shared by no small amount of people. If the young lady today admitted she made it all up the poster would not accept it. In another day and age they'd be throwing the rope over the tree limb.

I guess the way I see it  she doesn't remember and he's a model citizen. Seems like the best possible outcome. 

Does anyone remember Matt Bush? He was the first pick of the draft years back, had some serious issues. He actually killed someone driving drunk and went to jail. 

He plays for the Texas Rangers. Very controversial, doesn't seem to bother anyone that he killed someone, as an adult. People said he deserved a second chance.

Funny how there seems to be different standards, different strokes for different folks. 

Maybe the Rangers should draft him, they dont seem to have an issue with having someone who killed someone on their payroll.

I didn't realize that this was a life sentence? So no one can ever hire him? He can't ever hold a job? Anyone who ever employs him will have to face the scrutiny of hiring a sex offender? Anyone who ever dates him? Marry's him? Anyone who ever associates with him? So this is a life sentence? When does he get shipped off to a deserted island where he can have no contact with anyone the rest of his life? Wouldn't it have been better if he was just put to death? Would everyone still hold these same opinions if this young man was their child? Does he ever get the opportunity to prove he is not that person any longer? I just don't get it. 

If a person serves their time. If a person goes through the system and then is released back into society what now? They carry this the rest of their life with no hope of ever getting the opportunity to start over? If not why put them back out there? What should he do? What do you people want from him? NO MLB!!! Ok. NO he can never have his own children! Ok. NO one can employ him because if they do they are sanctioning his past behavior! Ok. No he can't live in my neighborhood! Ok. 

What do we do with all these people in our society? Of course we don't need to worry about all the perfect people that don't have a record. We don't need to worry about the one's that never got caught. We don't need to worry about the ones that on the outside look like model citizens. All we need to do is worry about the one's that have a dark past. They can't change. They can't be rehabilitated. 

We have a former President who took an intern into the Oval Office, using his position of Power and Authority to take advantage of basically a child and he travels around making Hundreds of Thousands of Dollars giving speeches while his wife champions the cause of Woman's rights. That's just one example of many. We have a young man who will be doomed the rest of his life because of something that happened when he was 15 and everyone wants him to be punished the rest of his life. 

I don't know all the facts of this case. I wasn't there. I just believe once an individual pays his dues he should have the CHANCE to live a productive life and make amends and prove he can. Otherwise there is no real justice. Leave them in jail. Lock them up for life. Put them to death. Or allow them to have an opportunity to make amends and live a productive life. I think this whole PC BS is pathetic. Half the guys in the NFL have beat their girl friends and or wives but people wear their jersey's every Sunday and cheer them on. I'm going to stop now rant over. 

Who cares...?

How's the girl...? That's the real thing that actually matters here... 

He doesn't NEED baseball to live a productive life... 

It's almost comical that some are comparing rumors, misgivings and crimes of others to what this guy - admittingly - did... 

Are you honestly trying to justify molesting a 6-year-old child, because of what...? Baseball...?

Really...?

My heart says never let him do anything ever again because what he did was bad (assuming he did it)

My brain says he paid the price and served his time so let him continue with life even if that means he gets to play professional baseball

There's a reason why we use facts and the brain to determine guilt or innocence instead of the heart.  I'm just glad I'm not in a position to determine this guy's fate when he hasn't really started living life yet. 

"justify molesting"

I see a strawman.  I also see the pending death of this non-HS-baseball thread.

NOBODY knows what really happened.  NOBODY should be passing judgment on this issue one way or another & this shouldn't be a thread on this board, IMO.

adbono posted:

NOBODY knows what really happened.  NOBODY should be passing judgment on this issue one way or another & this shouldn't be a thread on this board, IMO.

I somewhat agree in theory with your (idealistic, somewhat Pollyanna-esque) assertions, but the reality is folks (like us) have opinions, which vary in their level of accuracy. Crimes are often he/she said with no concrete evidence yet decisions must be made about crime and punishment. I think Coach2709 stated the conundrum quite nicely...

coach2709 posted:

My heart says never let him do anything ever again because what he did was bad (assuming he did it)

My brain says he paid the price and served his time so let him continue with life even if that means he gets to play professional baseball

There's a reason why we use facts and the brain to determine guilt or innocence instead of the heart.  I'm just glad I'm not in a position to determine this guy's fate when he hasn't really started living life yet. 

+1

Coach_May posted:

I didn't realize that this was a life sentence? So no one can ever hire him? He can't ever hold a job? Anyone who ever employs him will have to face the scrutiny of hiring a sex offender? Anyone who ever dates him? Marry's him? Anyone who ever associates with him? So this is a life sentence? When does he get shipped off to a deserted island where he can have no contact with anyone the rest of his life? Wouldn't it have been better if he was just put to death? Would everyone still hold these same opinions if this young man was their child? Does he ever get the opportunity to prove he is not that person any longer? I just don't get it. 

If a person serves their time. If a person goes through the system and then is released back into society what now? They carry this the rest of their life with no hope of ever getting the opportunity to start over? If not why put them back out there? What should he do? What do you people want from him? NO MLB!!! Ok. NO he can never have his own children! Ok. NO one can employ him because if they do they are sanctioning his past behavior! Ok. No he can't live in my neighborhood! Ok. 

What do we do with all these people in our society? Of course we don't need to worry about all the perfect people that don't have a record. We don't need to worry about the one's that never got caught. We don't need to worry about the ones that on the outside look like model citizens. All we need to do is worry about the one's that have a dark past. They can't change. They can't be rehabilitated. 

We have a former President who took an intern into the Oval Office, using his position of Power and Authority to take advantage of basically a child and he travels around making Hundreds of Thousands of Dollars giving speeches while his wife champions the cause of Woman's rights. That's just one example of many. We have a young man who will be doomed the rest of his life because of something that happened when he was 15 and everyone wants him to be punished the rest of his life. 

I don't know all the facts of this case. I wasn't there. I just believe once an individual pays his dues he should have the CHANCE to live a productive life and make amends and prove he can. Otherwise there is no real justice. Leave them in jail. Lock them up for life. Put them to death. Or allow them to have an opportunity to make amends and live a productive life. I think this whole PC BS is pathetic. Half the guys in the NFL have beat their girl friends and or wives but people wear their jersey's every Sunday and cheer them on. I'm going to stop now rant over. 

I just saw this, nice rant.

Ugh. Living here we have been inundated with this story for a year now. It still turns my stomach. I hate OSU's response to the situation. I hate that they have never answered questions about whether Heimlich was involved in youth camps or what their policy was on background checking athletes that are involved in youth camps. 

In my view, he made things worse for himself by speaking up and denying the accusations this year. It gave the people who were already going to support him something to hold on to. But, it made some of us who were sickened by the situation even more suspicious. Of course I was reading the stories with my own biases and filters, but I just saw a young man who was defiant and claims to have lied to the court, his therapist and ultimately the victim in his restitution letter. Not a good look for someone trying to rehab their image. 

He doesn't need baseball to be a productive member of society. However, if a club eventually takes a chance on him, then the fans will ultimately decide if he is deserving of that chance. His road through the system will not be easy and I can't imagine it will go as smoothly as his return to the college field this year. It may only take a handful of very outspoken critics in the cities he plays in to derail his career.  Maybe his best path is a couple years of indy ball to see if a fan base (outside of OSU) will welcome and accept him. 

IF he gets to MLB, IF he's listed as the starting pitcher, how many opposing players call out sick that game?  Has there ever been anything like that?

CaCO3Girl posted:

IF he gets to MLB, IF he's listed as the starting pitcher, how many opposing players call out sick that game?  Has there ever been anything like that?

This isnt a job where you call in sick. And many of them have their own set of issues we dont know about.

Heimlich has a right to a life. He has a right to earn a living. He doesn’t have the right to pick his job. He has to be hired. His preferred profession (baseball) comes with public exposure and scrutiny. His past behavior makes him less marketable due to the PR hit any team who selects him takes. Look what happened to NFL viewership just from not standing for the national anthem. Two former 49ers can’t find NFL jobs just for being outspoken. 

No, Heimlich does not have the right to play baseball. He does have the tools. It’s up to teams to decide if they need him to make money or will signing him cost them money. 

I’ve never committed a crime outside of traffic violations. When I was young out of college I was asked in interviews,  “Why you instead of everyone in this pile (stack of resumes)?” The real question is, what is your value added to the organization?

It’s that simple. Why Heimlich versus every other prospect on the board? It’s what MLB franchises are asking themselves. 

If I were Heimlich’s coach or an adult close to him I would advise him he can’t run from this situation. I would advise him to get involved in volunteer work with children. When it becomes a good story PR the hell out of it in the press. It’s redemption. I’m sorry is never going to be enough. Actions speak louder than words.

TPM posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

IF he gets to MLB, IF he's listed as the starting pitcher, how many opposing players call out sick that game?  Has there ever been anything like that?

This isnt a job where you call in sick. And many of them have their own set of issues we dont know about.

You can call out sick, it's not called that, it's called a tight hamstring or a bruised shin or whatever.

Nuke83 posted:

old_school posted:

 

It is a story that is actually almost unbelievable from either side of the story.

Therein lies the bulk of the problem.  The kid has changed stories several times over the past 12+ months.  He has been contrite, then vindictive.  Forthcoming, then retracting.  At this point, the kid has little to no credibility and a heinous cloud of molestation hanging over his head.  This isn't the typical "Kid takes illegal benefits while in college" type of story.  And you don't need to look much further than the NFL and the serious hits they've taken as a league over spousal/partner violence as well as the political statements of INDIVIDUALS that have had a severe impact to ALL teams to understand why MLB and teams are extremely wary of taking a chance on drafting a single player.  I'll actually be a bit surprised if any team does take him in the draft.  Not saying one won't, but my guess is they'll stay away.

I'm not aware of the story changing several times. In fact, from what I've read, his story has been exactly the same since this happened when he was 15. He's maintained innocence from day one. I've got no clue what happened, but his story has been the same - whether or not he did it, nobody will ever know.

I'd appreciate it if you could post or link to something which shows a change in story. That would raise flags. 

Every article I've read points to an internal family argument involving his brother's marital issues. Today the brother is divorced, the mother is tight-lipped, and the victim doesn't remember anything.

For anyone who hasn't read it, I've linked to the Portland Tribune article below. It contains a bunch of information not covered in other articles, including a polygraph test.

https://portlandtribune.com/pt...for-beavers-baseball

Cman posted:

For anyone who hasn't read it, I've linked to the Portland Tribune article below. It contains a bunch of information not covered in other articles, including a polygraph test.

https://portlandtribune.com/pt...for-beavers-baseball

Is there a need to retry him on this site? I made the original post to start a discussion on does he get drafted? Does he get signed? There’s already a conviction. There’s already a public perception within the baseball community. What will it be if/when he is drafted/signed and gets genrsl national exposure? The story will hit the sports page of every paper in the country. How can the negativity be minimized. Or does baseball just walk away from him as too big of a/PR financial risk?

Anything negative that happens to kids is the biggest story with the biggest reaction. When there’s  a plane crash the news doesn’t say, “100 die including six fathers.” They do say, “100 die including six children.”

CaCO3Girl posted:

TPM posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

IF he gets to MLB, IF he's listed as the starting pitcher, how many opposing players call out sick that game?  Has there ever been anything like that?

This isnt a job where you call in sick. And many of them have their own set of issues we dont know about.

You can call out sick, it's not called that, it's called a tight hamstring or a bruised shin or whatever.

Oye.

SultanofSwat posted:

"justify molesting"

I see a strawman.  I also see the pending death of this non-HS-baseball thread.

I'm giving it to Friday before being shut down.  Anybody want to start a pool?

Cman posted:

For anyone who hasn't read it, I've linked to the Portland Tribune article below. It contains a bunch of information not covered in other articles, including a polygraph test.

https://portlandtribune.com/pt...for-beavers-baseball

Thank you for posting that. It's really easy to judge others when you don't have the facts. 

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone". We have all made mistakes, his may have been just not registering for something he really had no choice in  pleading guilty to.

Getting back to the draft, hope he gets signed as a free agent.

Heimlich undrafted

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/...lich-goes-undrafted/

I wonder if a Japanese or other non-US team might sign him.    He might get more money have have less scrutiny.

Bob??

Some have said this is non-high school related but I believe it is a life lesson to all of us and one that we can use with our high schoolers and those we coach.  He is not the first and won't be the last that lost something big because of mistakes he made, whether he did the crime at the time or whether he was talked into admitting he did it by his parents.  Which I still hold is unfathomable.  If he actually did not do it he should separate himself from them because they ruined his life.  Look for the lawyers contacting him to sue them.

I know of several good players that should have gotten drafted, several out of high school and at least two this year, that did not because of off the field issues.  They would not have been first rounders but should have been up there.  It is a constant reminder to all high schoolers that your actions will follow you and sometimes, not always, but sometimes will cost you much, sometimes even money.

We live in a society where people say actions should not be held against you, especially as a teenager.  I disagree.  The sin can be forgiven but there still has to be punishment.  The two are not the same.  The Bible is even clear through many stories of people that God forgave but still had to face the punishment which sometimes comes years later.  Just a reminder to our teenagers.  Be careful what you do.  Five seconds of stupidity can cost you millions.  I know a young man that if he could take back one stupid decision today would because that one stupid decision cost him being drafted over the past couple of days.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/a..._states_luke_hei.amp

Thanks for the article.

I just feel that this has been an awful situation for everyone involved. 

IMO since when did the Texas Rangers get so righteous? Coming out with a statement they wouldn't draft him, why ? They gave a drug addict and a player guilty of manslaughter a chance?  Why would they make that statement?

This is why I can't stand professional ball. 

I am not sure I get this, if this situation happened, how come everything is ok with the family now. If that happened to my child, I mean really happened, then I would never allow my child near that person. If this is true about no restrictions, and the niece never showed signs of trauma, what really went on?  Did the accuser suddenly realize not only her child would suffer but also someone else?

PitchingFan posted:

Some have said this is non-high school related but I believe it is a life lesson to all of us and one that we can use with our high schoolers and those we coach.  He is not the first and won't be the last that lost something big because of mistakes he made, whether he did the crime at the time or whether he was talked into admitting he did it by his parents.  Which I still hold is unfathomable.  If he actually did not do it he should separate himself from them because they ruined his life.  Look for the lawyers contacting him to sue them.

I know of several good players that should have gotten drafted, several out of high school and at least two this year, that did not because of off the field issues.  They would not have been first rounders but should have been up there.  It is a constant reminder to all high schoolers that your actions will follow you and sometimes, not always, but sometimes will cost you much, sometimes even money.

We live in a society where people say actions should not be held against you, especially as a teenager.  I disagree.  The sin can be forgiven but there still has to be punishment.  The two are not the same.  The Bible is even clear through many stories of people that God forgave but still had to face the punishment which sometimes comes years later.  Just a reminder to our teenagers.  Be careful what you do.  Five seconds of stupidity can cost you millions.  I know a young man that if he could take back one stupid decision today would because that one stupid decision cost him being drafted over the past couple of days.

 

 

There is something wrong going on. Two black college football players get caught stealing and kicked off the team. Two white baseball players the same, one becomes a high round draft pick. 

I agree with everything you have said, but when young adults hear these stories, do they actually think twice about the consequences?

I just know that I told my kids if they ever got in real trouble they better watch out because I will be biggest fear. It worked.