The game will tell you when to be a PO, but what does that mean?

Clear signs depend somewhat on location, goals etc.

A player in California has much stiffer competition than a player in Idaho.  To me a 10th Grader is awfully young to give up on hitting.  Would he still hit in high school and be a PO in travel?  Are his goals to play college ball?  

Honestly, I think a number of factors go into determining when the right time is.  I still believe my son could hit at a high level, but his JC pitching coach thought he had better opportunity if he focused on the pitching and dropped the hitting.  It did make a huge difference this year.  Freshman ERA was around 4, and Soph. ERA was 1.04.  Son said it was hard at times to focus on both things in the same game.  (Strike out, and then have to get that out of your mind, because you now have to run right out and pitch.) 

With that being said, if my son was a good hitter, I personally wouldn't advise making that decision in HS.  Do both if you can.  Now, I would let son attend a tourney here or there as a PO, if it was a high level team.  It could be a great experience and provide good exposure. 

His HS is very large and has a decent program in Georgia.  The Varsity coach has talked with him about putting him on Varsity next year, but only brought up his pitching.  Did not mention anything about hitting or being a position player.

He wants to play in college and even further.  The coach that invited him to join the very good team as a PO made the point that he's a decent hitter but he's not a masher.  He said "Your son is spending a lot of time on things that won't get him to the next level, when he should be spending that time on the thing that will get him there."

That made a lot of sense to me but I don't want to advise my son to give up parts of baseball on one guys comment.

Since you guys are in Georgia, I take it the Travel Team plays the top Perfect Game events?  WWBA etc?

Based on those positions, I will assume that he throws left handed.

So at least one coach (who probably knows what he's doing) is telling your son that he's a better pitcher than position player. That's good information to have. What your son does with that knowledge is up to him. If his goal is to play at the highest level possible, then he should probably start seriously thinking about focusing on pitching. If his goals aren't that well defined yet, then playing two-way for another year or two might be more in line with what he wants out of baseball. LHPs are always in short supply. He will likely have college options regardless of this current decision.

Cherokeeplayer posted:

His HS is very large and has a decent program in Georgia.  The Varsity coach has talked with him about putting him on Varsity next year, but only brought up his pitching.  Did not mention anything about hitting or being a position player.

He wants to play in college and even further.  The coach that invited him to join the very good team as a PO made the point that he's a decent hitter but he's not a masher.  He said "Your son is spending a lot of time on things that won't get him to the next level, when he should be spending that time on the thing that will get him there."

That made a lot of sense to me but I don't want to advise my son to give up parts of baseball on one guys comment.

These comments go a long way in answering one of your own questions in your opening post.  Two coaches, one being his HS coach, are telling him they like his pitching but he may not earn time as a position player.  So, it is starting to look like, based on his current skill set, he has a better chance of playing at the next level as a pitcher than a position player.  And, it's starting to look like his immediate demand and opportunity is as a P more so than a position player.  This is what the game is telling him.

3and2 and Ryno bring up good points.  What are his goals?  He is awful young to completely give up on playing on both sides of the ball if he doesn't have to.  

Here is what I would add...  I think most players with aspirations of playing next level, particularly those who pitch in HS, have abilities on both sides.  Many are told where they have the most promise and this is usually valuable advice that should be heavily considered.  But, most kids that like to play baseball like to play the whole game.  And many kids that are better at pitching don't really have the desire to be a P only.  Sometimes they come around to the idea if it can earn them an opportunity to play at the college level.  But, sometimes the idea really isn't that appealing to them.  If that applies to your son, have him work harder on the rest of his game.  See if he can tell the game he's not done doing what he loves most.

3and2Fastball posted:

Since you guys are in Georgia, I take it the Travel Team plays the top Perfect Game events?  WWBA etc?

 

Yes they play in the high profile events.

He is a RHP actually MidAtlantic Dad. He has not deviated from saying he will be playing MLB since he was 6. I understand in order to do that he will need as much luck as talent and it is still a slim possibility, but that is his goal. I have had a very hard time getting him to talk about a plan B, like a major in college.

If your son is a competent hitter and has the potential to pitch at the next level he has to decide what is important. Will hitting make him happier? Or does he want to focus on getting to the next level? Neither choice is bad. It's a matter of what matters more.

Cherokeeplayer posted:

He is a RHP actually MidAtlantic Dad. He has not deviated from saying he will be playing MLB since he was 6. I understand in order to do that he will need as much luck as talent and it is still a slim possibility, but that is his goal. I have had a very hard time getting him to talk about a plan B, like a major in college.

My son probably started to understand that the MLB was not likely for him as a freshman in HS (though I still think he has a tiny glimmer of hope as a college junior). That's when he really started to understand how important his high school grades/achievements would be when it came to playing college ball.

Hitting is paramount in college ball, at every level. I second cabbagedad's advice... if he's not ready to be PO, he can keep working on getting better/stronger/faster. As the father of a 1B, my advise would be to focus on the OF because 1B spots are precious few (it's the Rodney Dangerfield of positions) and you'd better be a serious masher.

MidAtlanticDad posted:

Cherokeeplayer posted:

He is a RHP actually MidAtlantic Dad. He has not deviated from saying he will be playing MLB since he was 6. I understand in order to do that he will need as much luck as talent and it is still a slim possibility, but that is his goal. I have had a very hard time getting him to talk about a plan B, like a major in college.

My son probably started to understand that the MLB was not likely for him as a freshman in HS (though I still think he has a tiny glimmer of hope as a college junior). That's when he really started to understand how important his high school grades/achievements would be when it came to playing college ball.

Hitting is paramount in college ball, at every level. I second cabbagedad's advice... if he's not ready to be PO, he can keep working on getting better/stronger/faster. As the father of a 1B, my advise would be to focus on the OF because 1B spots are precious few (it's the Rodney Dangerfield of positions) and you'd better be a serious masher.

1B is often where the freshman who can hit plays until the upper class player at his recruited position graduates or is drafted and leaves. 

cabbagedad posted:

Cherokeeplayer posted:

His HS is very large and has a decent program in Georgia.  The Varsity coach has talked with him about putting him on Varsity next year, but only brought up his pitching.  Did not mention anything about hitting or being a position player.

He wants to play in college and even further.  The coach that invited him to join the very good team as a PO made the point that he's a decent hitter but he's not a masher.  He said "Your son is spending a lot of time on things that won't get him to the next level, when he should be spending that time on the thing that will get him there."

That made a lot of sense to me but I don't want to advise my son to give up parts of baseball on one guys comment.

These comments go a long way in answering one of your own questions in your opening post.  Two coaches, one being his HS coach, are telling him they like his pitching but he may not earn time as a position player.  So, it is starting to look like, based on his current skill set, he has a better chance of playing at the next level as a pitcher than a position player.  And, it's starting to look like his immediate demand and opportunity is as a P more so than a position player.  This is what the game is telling him.

3and2 and Ryno bring up good points.  What are his goals?  He is awful young to completely give up on playing on both sides of the ball if he doesn't have to.  

Here is what I would add...  I think most players with aspirations of playing next level, particularly those who pitch in HS, have abilities on both sides.  Many are told where they have the most promise and this is usually valuable advice that should be heavily considered.  But, most kids that like to play baseball like to play the whole game.  And many kids that are better at pitching don't really have the desire to be a P only.  Sometimes they come around to the idea if it can earn them an opportunity to play at the college level.  But, sometimes the idea really isn't that appealing to them.  If that applies to your son, have him work harder on the rest of his game.  See if he can tell the game he's not done doing what he loves most.

Yes this is the problem.  He is an athletic kid who likes to play the whole game.  He is not a bad outfielder and he is not a bad hitter, and in his mind you should be bad at those things to become a PO. 

My fear is that he won't have enough hours in a week to put in the work to get even close to his pitching potential unless he truly focuses on that area. Plus, there are kids who hit better and field better. So, which takes priority?  His immediate happiness in being a two way player or his long term goal of MLB? 

A mid major D1 HC had an interesting viewpoint on this when my son was going through the recruiting process.  He said:  "Being a pitcher who is being recruited and trying to make an impact on a D1 baseball program is as good a spot to be as any would-be college athlete.  Think about it.  If you are the 4th best goalie on the women's soccer team, how valuable are you to that team/coach?  If you are the 3rd best center on the men's basketball team or if you are the 5th best QB on the football team, do you ever get playing time?  But....If you are the 5th best pitcher, you are absolutely critical to a baseball team's success and that is a coveted and valuable roster spot."

I'm biased, but being a PO can be a beautiful thing.  If "the market" is telling you that is your strength, becoming a PO allows you to hone those skills and become the best you can be, especially if, as in this case, the player has very high aspirations for "the next level and beyond."

Cherokeeplayer posted:

cabbagedad posted:

Cherokeeplayer posted:

His HS is very large and has a decent program in Georgia.  The Varsity coach has talked with him about putting him on Varsity next year, but only brought up his pitching.  Did not mention anything about hitting or being a position player.

He wants to play in college and even further.  The coach that invited him to join the very good team as a PO made the point that he's a decent hitter but he's not a masher.  He said "Your son is spending a lot of time on things that won't get him to the next level, when he should be spending that time on the thing that will get him there."

That made a lot of sense to me but I don't want to advise my son to give up parts of baseball on one guys comment.

These comments go a long way in answering one of your own questions in your opening post.  Two coaches, one being his HS coach, are telling him they like his pitching but he may not earn time as a position player.  So, it is starting to look like, based on his current skill set, he has a better chance of playing at the next level as a pitcher than a position player.  And, it's starting to look like his immediate demand and opportunity is as a P more so than a position player.  This is what the game is telling him.

3and2 and Ryno bring up good points.  What are his goals?  He is awful young to completely give up on playing on both sides of the ball if he doesn't have to.  

Here is what I would add...  I think most players with aspirations of playing next level, particularly those who pitch in HS, have abilities on both sides.  Many are told where they have the most promise and this is usually valuable advice that should be heavily considered.  But, most kids that like to play baseball like to play the whole game.  And many kids that are better at pitching don't really have the desire to be a P only.  Sometimes they come around to the idea if it can earn them an opportunity to play at the college level.  But, sometimes the idea really isn't that appealing to them.  If that applies to your son, have him work harder on the rest of his game.  See if he can tell the game he's not done doing what he loves most.

Yes this is the problem.  He is an athletic kid who likes to play the whole game.  He is not a bad outfielder and he is not a bad hitter, and in his mind you should be bad at those things to become a PO. 

My fear is that he won't have enough hours in a week to put in the work to get even close to his pitching potential unless he truly focuses on that area. Plus, there are kids who hit better and field better. So, which takes priority?  His immediate happiness in being a two way player or his long term goal of MLB? 

You mentioned his bat exit speed but not his pitching velo ... ?   I mention this because it could factor into what his immediate direction should be.  If he is throwing hard enough to garner interest from more than one or two D1's, he may need to speed up the decision to focus (if he is OK pursuing his dream with the condition being he would be a P).  If not, my suggestion would be to keep working hard on all aspects and to become refined but not overused as a P.  Considering he is playing in high profile events and at a large HS, I suspect things will become much clearer to him by this time next year.

Cherokee, here is another thought. If your son really wants to continue being a 2 way guy (and I strongly recommend he does as a sophomore), why not have him play as a PO for the travel team with the caveat that he play with a lesser talented team in their organization as a position player ONLY, or for a completely different organization. If the team that wants him as a PO is a competitive team that plays in the high profile events, he will get noticed faster. He won't get noticed sitting or getting a few bats per tourney. 

My son faced this delima. When he was a rising junior, he had one of the top travel teams in the country (East Cobb Astros) call him. They wanted him as a pitcher but promised he would get an opportunity to play outfield and hit. At the first practice, it was pretty apparent that he was gonna be a PO. There were a lot of guys who were better than him with the bat. Defensively, he was the best or maybe second best. Fast forward to 18U WWBA and 17U WWBA in 2014. The Astros at that time were a 17U/18U team. He had been giving the coach a fit to let him hit and play as we had scuffled scoring runs a couple games and had several guys K looking. He was like,"Hey coach, I will at least go down swinging."  About our 3rd pool game against a really talented team (NE Roughnecks I think) he was inserted into the line up. I think he went 2 for 2 or 2 for 3 that day and led the team in batting average that tournament including a hit off of Luken Baker (then with Texas Sun Devils now TCU) on a 96 mph fastball. As a dad, that convinced me he could handle that velocity, no matter what happened moving forward. The next week was the 17U WWBA. I was certain son would be a 2 way guy. Before the first game, son is at batting cage with hitters. Coach sees him and pulls him to the side and asks him what he is doing. His response was to tell the coach that he figured he wanted him to play both ways. Coach said, son what would happen if you dove for a ball in the outfield or got your hand stepped on sliding into a base?  You are far too valuable as a LHP throwing 92 than a hitter. That finally made a LOT of sense to me as a parent. 

Now son kept hitting throughout HS, and was really good. He was good enough that his current college coach had the intention of giving him a chance to hit. If you read his bio information it says as much, not just a dad blowing smoke. After talking with a couple upperclassmen that were given the same opportunity, son just decided that he was going to focus on pitching. As a dad, possibly squinting through rose colored glasses, I am still confident he could hit and defend at his current school. But, we will never know as the game told him the mound was where his future is. 

Younggun, interesting food for thought. 

Cabbagedad I have purposely left off his age and his velo off the mound because it muddies the waters at that point, but I guess this is the part where this discussion veers WAY off course.

He's a 14 year old 2020, he throws 81.  He does not have a PC, he has just picked up things here and there from coaches.  In short, he's the untrained kid that doesn't know a baseball shouldn't move like that because he hasn't been taught to have preconceived notions on how to pitch.  Frankly, it's a miracle he learned to throw that fast without hurting himself, and I really wonder what he could do if he focused on it.

Cherokeeplayer posted:

Yes this is the problem.  He is an athletic kid who likes to play the whole game.  He is not a bad outfielder and he is not a bad hitter, and in his mind you should be bad at those things to become a PO. 

My fear is that he won't have enough hours in a week to put in the work to get even close to his pitching potential unless he truly focuses on that area. Plus, there are kids who hit better and field better. So, which takes priority?  His immediate happiness in being a two way player or his long term goal of MLB? 

Questions:

How athletic?  What does he run the 60 in?  What is his height & weight?

To make it to MLB, let alone D1, you have to be truly great at hitting and (for most positions) fielding, not "not bad".  If he isn't truly great, yet, is there a reasonable expectation that he can get that good?  If he has an offer to be a PO on a team that plays the Perfect Game events, I would suggest doing that, continue to work on hitting in the meantime (a wide majority of future MLB players work on hitting 6 days a week, 9-10+ months a year if not more) and take a good honest look at the best hitters at the PG WWBA etc and see if he thinks he can hang as a hitter with those guys

younggun posted:

Cherokee, here is another thought. If your son really wants to continue being a 2 way guy (and I strongly recommend he does as a sophomore), why not have him play as a PO for the travel team with the caveat that he play with a lesser talented team in their organization as a position player ONLY, or for a completely different organization. If the team that wants him as a PO is a competitive team that plays in the high profile events, he will get noticed faster. He won't get noticed sitting or getting a few bats per tourney. 

 

^^THIS.

My son is a rising senior. His club team offered him a PO position for this summer. He is a lefty that can play the outfield and hit competently (he's been a designated hitter and utility player for his HS team since he was a sophomore). He pitches for the club team and plays outfield and hits for a AAA Legion team. The Legion team allows him get the reps at the plate and in the outfield that he needs for next year. The club team let's him face high level opponents and get the exposure he needs for college baseball. It has worked pretty well for us this summer. 

We know any future he has in college is as a pitcher. We've been prepping him for that for several years, but it doesn't mean he totally gave up on hitting and playing the field. He still has one more year to contribute to the high school. 

For anybody that sees PO as a potential in their future, I highly recommend spending some time in that role. It is an adjustment, especially mentally. But, it is a great role once the adjustments are made. The key is to be realistic about our kid's talents and future. It's also helpful to understand what coaches are looking for at the next level. Does you son have the speed to compete for a position spot? Is his hitting potential as high as his pitching potential? What level does he want to play in college? If being a two-way player is important to him, is he willing to play at a lower level to achieve that goal? This is the age when you start having to ask those questions and making those very honest assessments. 

The game has a way of funneling talent to the top.   A kid could be a great HS Shortstop but if they aren't very fast (as in 6.9 sixty fast) they will get moved to another position at the next level.   If their hands or arm aren't elite they might get moved anyways.  If they can't run faster than 7.3-7.5 or so they will be a 1B and then they better be one of the best hitters in the country, or learn how to play Catcher.

Same thing with any other limits within the 5 Tools

People might say "well Manny Ramirez wasn't fast."  Manny Ramirez was one of the greatest RH hitters in Baseball.

At any rate, we all face it with our kids.  I think it is important to take to heart what the decision makers say when they project our kids.  It can be worth getting 2nd or 3rd or 4th opinions but in general it is good to take it to heart and go from there.

I have a 14 year old son, too, he's a 2021 though.  He recently moved from a lower level Travel team to one of the top programs in our area.  The coaches there took a few looks at him and decided to bat him 3rd and have him play in the Outfield.  My kid has almost always played SS/2B.   He'll likely play infield for his high school team so he continues to work on that on his own.  Meanwhile I'm thrilled he's getting reps in the Outfield.  It is great experience.  You never know where you'll end up.  

My advice would be not to try to predict the future for your son, there are too many variables in baseball to try to do this. Let him do what he wants to do, and what opportunities are presented to him based on his skill and what time his is willing to put in to achieve it.  As others have pointed out he will likely have the best opportunities as a LHP, but let the market (and his desires) decide this for him. 

Like youngun my son did both in HS and was mostly a pitcher on his travel team but also played 2-3 innings per game in the field and hit. He did both on his scout team, and as a result was recruited by some college programs as a hitter and others as a pitcher - so you never know what can happen, even if you think you know. 

My son was also a two way, and did this all the way through college, but not like he (or I ) had planned. He played mostly OF in his Fr year but also pitched out of the pen for maybe 10 innings. His soph year he decided to just hit, and was beat out of "his" (LOL) position by a All American Fr. He still played OF but not as much as he wanted so he picked up pitching again during the next summer and was doing both in the fall until he earned a playing slot, so he set pitching aside. He broke his finger (glove side) early in the season and would have been done (mostly) so he talked to the coaching staff and he started to pitch again and eventually ended up as a closer toward the end of the year. That year he came in early in the deciding game for his conference championship and won the game sending them to a regional. 

His Sr year he decided to pitch only, which he did and had a great time. (and also said he enjoyed the pitchers lifestyle) He played in four straight Regionals, one CWS and was a solid contributor to his team and program all four years. The only reason I posted this was to just know that sometimes it is best to just let things play out. It is great your getting input from others but in the end just let him do what he wants to do and the rest will take care of itself, and like is also said, "you never know who is watching".  Best of luck to your son the rest of the way! 

BucsFan posted:

A mid major D1 HC had an interesting viewpoint on this when my son was going through the recruiting process.  He said:  "Being a pitcher who is being recruited and trying to make an impact on a D1 baseball program is as good a spot to be as any would-be college athlete.  Think about it.  If you are the 4th best goalie on the women's soccer team, how valuable are you to that team/coach?  If you are the 3rd best center on the men's basketball team or if you are the 5th best QB on the football team, do you ever get playing time?  But....If you are the 5th best pitcher, you are absolutely critical to a baseball team's success and that is a coveted and valuable roster spot."

I'm biased, but being a PO can be a beautiful thing.  If "the market" is telling you that is your strength, becoming a PO allows you to hone those skills and become the best you can be, especially if, as in this case, the player has very high aspirations for "the next level and beyond."

This is gold, especially if your son is very interested in his college studies.  College POs have some flexibility with their schedules.  They still have to get their daily workouts and bullpens in their routine, but it is a good gig.  I can;t agree more with BucsFan on that point.

BucsFan posted:

A mid major D1 HC had an interesting viewpoint on this when my son was going through the recruiting process.  He said:  "Being a pitcher who is being recruited and trying to make an impact on a D1 baseball program is as good a spot to be as any would-be college athlete.  Think about it.  If you are the 4th best goalie on the women's soccer team, how valuable are you to that team/coach?  If you are the 3rd best center on the men's basketball team or if you are the 5th best QB on the football team, do you ever get playing time?  But....If you are the 5th best pitcher, you are absolutely critical to a baseball team's success and that is a coveted and valuable roster spot."

I'm biased, but being a PO can be a beautiful thing.  If "the market" is telling you that is your strength, becoming a PO allows you to hone those skills and become the best you can be, especially if, as in this case, the player has very high aspirations for "the next level and beyond."

Bingo.   Pitchers get chance after chance to get guys out.  The hot hand gets on the mound. That might change two or three times in a collegiate season. 

If position players stay healthy all but maybe one or two spots on the diamond will stay in the lineup once they are deemed to be that position's starter and the better player. How many ABs does the third catcher get if top 2 healthy?  I would venture in most cases that's zero. 

My son went thru a similar thing at 14 . He was asked to be a PO on one of the top travel teams in the country. He liked hitting and was pretty good at it, but he was left handed and sitting 81-82 on the gun at 14 years old.

He eventually committed as a LHP to a D1 program. But he continued to hit in HS . He PO'd with travel ball and was a 2 way guy in HS.

You can do both right now. Be a PO on one team and be a 2 way guy on another. If your son has college aspirations go look at a D1 roster . 30 guys....15 are pitchers. It's the same w/ recruiting . Go check out a recruiting class on PG for a solid D1 program and you'll see 12-14 commits . 7 pitchers , 4 shortstops and a catcher. Very rare to see a lot of corner guys . If your son wants to hit at the D1 level foot speed is a must . He's gotta break a 7.0 in the 60 and he has to hit the ball really HARD. But by virtue of the numbers , pitching is the way to a roster spot.

I recommend your son continues to hit when at all possible. As I stated earlier my son was recruited and committed as a LHP ....Then he hurt his shoulder. He red shirted his freshman year and is 8 months post surgery. The school rehabbed him as a hitter. They got to see the bat in fall ball last year and liked it. They'll get him back on a mound but in the meantime he can contribute in other ways next season. And he knows about what i typed earlier. He's running track w/ a coach at UCLA this summer and DH'n in summer ball. All he's focusing on is hitting the ball as HARD as possible and running track. Those things are essential if he expects to get playing time next year as a position player at the NCAA Division 1 level