The Little Things?

I would say that there are many that don't learn the little things until college or pro.

When coaching in college I was amazed by the number of players coming in that didn't know how to play the game.  Lacking the fundamentals and especially when it came to running the bases and understanding situations.  

They could hit, run and throw, but never learned how to play. I remember one year during a practice game we had a freshman lead off with a double.  The next hitter hit a sharp ground ball to the shortstop.  The freshman at 2B was easily thrown out trying to advance to 3B.  I called him over and asked him why did he go to third.  He said he didn't know.  I said surely you know not to go to third on that play?  Honest, he said nobody has ever told him that.  A simple little thing most would take for granted any freshman in college would know, yet he didn't know that. 

BTW, the kid above ended up being a very good player for us. Legitimate 6.4 runner and he hit for power.  Just was way behind on all the little things.  He was a very smart kid, but a dumb baseball player.   It took him awhile to catch up.

After 3 years on varsity I've had to correct bad habits my son picked up from his worthless coach.   I've witnessed batting practice before a game that was a complete joke with kids horse playing with no coach present. I'm to the point now that my son would be better off not playing high school ball his senior year.   I guess qualifications aren't necessary to coach. 

Funny I open this up, expecting to start a new thread....and there is one titled "The Little Things".

Based on my son's freshman season up to this point, it's unbelievable to me that D1 college players have so much trouble getting a SAC bunt down.  Today's game, down 2-0, bottom 9, runners on 1st and 2nd no outs and we put a bunt 4' up the third base line.  Catcher fields it and throws the guy out at third by 8 feet.  I'm conservatively saying we've gotten 40-50% of our SAC bunt attempts down...and that's probably 10% too high.  I can't count how many times a guy in a SAC situation has attempted what is essentially a slap bunt that resulted in a pop up to the catcher or pitcher or a foul ball down either line or behind the plate.  Are HS players not taught how to bunt?  It was comical early in the year....but has cost us more runs and scoring opportunities than I can count.  I understand that even D1 college kids can't make every play, but getting down a SAC bunt isn't something I thought a team would struggle with to the point that my son's team is. 

Can your HS kid bunt??  How about your college kid??   Just curious

Jerry Weinstein, a poster on this web site was one of best coaches at teaching the "little" things. When he coached at Sacramento City College, every visiting coach improved their game.

If a player did not execute, he did not play. When I coached the Chicago Cubs scout team, we played Sac CC 14 consecutive innings and Jerry was teaching every minute.

Bob

Wow. Replaying last nights loss in my head this am and basically thinking the excact same thing.Only in my conclution I actually don't think I could take another/one more yr. of  "our" HSVBB without completly losing it.Realize I am not a coach.Just a parent who has sat and watched for 4 yrs. thinking how can such disrespect be shown/taught to some fine young men along with some pretty good BB players that come together in the spring for thier high school.

PGStaff posted:

I would say that there are many that don't learn the little things until college or pro.

When coaching in college I was amazed by the number of players coming in that didn't know how to play the game.  Lacking the fundamentals and especially when it came to running the bases and understanding situations.  

They could hit, run and throw, but never learned how to play. I remember one year during a practice game we had a freshman lead off with a double.  The next hitter hit a sharp ground ball to the shortstop.  The freshman at 2B was easily thrown out trying to advance to 3B.  I called him over and asked him why did he go to third.  He said he didn't know.  I said surely you know not to go to third on that play?  Honest, he said nobody has ever told him that.  A simple little thing most would take for granted any freshman in college would know, yet he didn't know that. 

BTW, the kid above ended up being a very good player for us. Legitimate 6.4 runner and he hit for power.  Just was way behind on all the little things.  He was a very smart kid, but a dumb baseball player.   It took him awhile to catch up.

Probably it plays a role that most college players have been 3-4 hitters their whole life from LL over travel to HS and never were asked to bunt. They did their two bunts in the bunt round but did not spend much more energy on that. 

However it is also not easy to bunt really good pitching. In BP anyone can do it but in a game against 91 that is different.  I mean tons of mlb players are unable to bunt against the shift. 

It seems there is not much emphasis on that anymore. Everything focuses on exit velo,  throwing velo or 60 yard dash speed. 

Please don't turn this into a generalized bash high school coaches thread.  Yeah there are some that stink up the joint but I truly believe there are way more good ones than bad ones from my experience.

Golfman25 posted:

…With three hrs. per practice, it would seem you could find the time. 

What are they doing for 3 hours? Have you attended every practice to see what goes on? How many coaches show up every practice?

I don’t know about where you’re at, but here, once the season starts we’re playing 3 games a week. That only leaves 2 days for practices.

Stats4Gnats posted:

Golfman25 posted:

…With three hrs. per practice, it would seem you could find the time. 

 

What are they doing for 3 hours? Have you attended every practice to see what goes on? How many coaches show up every practice?

 

I don’t know about where you’re at, but here, once the season starts we’re playing 3 games a week. That only leaves 2 days for practices.

2 day x 3 hrs x 10 weeks = 60 hrs of practice.  Certainly they could find some time to hit on the little things. 

I suppose we are lucky.  Early in my kid's career his coaches spent many hours teaching the small things.  No wonder when we ran a pickoff play at 2b, the umpire said to me "that's the best execution I have seen all year, including high school."   

coach2709 posted:

Please don't turn this into a generalized bash high school coaches thread.  Yeah there are some that stink up the joint but I truly believe there are way more good ones than bad ones from my experience.

Certainly not meant to be a coach bashing thread.  Just wondering if we are the only ones deficient. 

Our school is a little unique in that it is fed by two towns - one Little League based (and reasonably successful in the all star program) and one travel ball based.  The travel ball kids seem to be a little more well versed in the game having been exposed to "real" baseball longer (i.e.; open bases).  Thus, the need to take that extra time to focus on some of the small things, imo.   

It's really sad to watch sometimes. I've seen it way too often where players have to be walked through plays step-by-step and they don't understand the simple things in the game. I think there's plenty of "blame" to go around, but the fact remains... many ballplayers don't understand how to play the game. 

My son played little league one last year two years ago. Son was catching with runners on first and third. Coach starts yelling at second baseman to get on the bag in case of a steal. My son turns around and says coach, I told him not to cause I'm not going to throw down with a runner on third. Coach says I don't care, I'm the coach, he should do what I say. Son shrugged and said okay. Still didn't throw, and was reminded why he quit Little League. Nice enough coaches who didn't know the game as well as the 14 year old. 

I understand the bashing of the HS Coach.  However, aren't these same players (generalization and not specific to anyone here) playing TB?  Aren't they supposed to be playing for some top programs?  So, what are they learning there?   Bulldog is right that there is plenty of blame to go around.  Why would players at the HS level in HS not know the basics of how to play the game?  What happened as they grew up?  When I read Golfman's OP, I wondered if these kids play the game at all.  Do they ever just play pickup baseball?  For many of us, that is where we learned most of the game. 

As an FYI, I coach and Bulldog has seen my work in action.  I have seen his Father's work in action.  However, times are changing.  I've found this out first hand this week.  I am very intense.  I run a very strict practice, timed and intense.  In my game yesterday, I found myself looking at the administration that had showed up wondering if they were there because of how intense our practices were this past week.  I am hoping that they were simply there to watch the game and I'm being paranoid.  I know players felt after Tuesday's practice that I am the meanest person in the world.  I know phone calls were made.  Lost in some of that was that I was soaking wet after practice from how much I got after it.  Unfortunately, many parents don't want that anymore.  Myself and many like me are relics now.  Some coaches, unfortunately, simply collect a paycheck now. 

I think we break things down pretty well and give the "little things" as much attention as reasonably possible.  We figure out in the winter what kind of squad we have coming in and what they will need the most work on.  Of course the big things require the bulk of practice time... fielding, throwing, hitting, pitching, positional responsibilities, etc.  There are things that must be done daily or nearly every day.  There are lots of limitations to factor in....  one field, small roster, players that play multiple positions, etc.  So, for example, it is always tough to allocate adequate time for catcher drills when the field is needed for other infield work (and so are the other catchers).  The pitchers are, for the most part, also the fielders so when we do bullpens (which we schedule regularly) it disrupts other defensive drills.  All this said, we try to plan on also covering all the "little things" at least a couple times prior to first game and then touch on them at least on occasion. 

But, here's an example of what happens...

We covered the responsibility and specific read and mechanics of the R1 for a hit and run in depth prior to season and early in season.  We reinforce with some versions of our batting practice routines.  We haven't had occasion to use it much recently.   So, the other day, we ran a different batting practice routine that put more spotlight on the R1 breaking on the hit and run.  MOST of the players had COMPLETELY forgotten what they had been drilled on so extensively earlier in the season.  This happens more than you would think.  We spend part of every day working on bunt execution in the cage and on the field.  It is often worked on in live situations.  Our players get thousands and thousands of bunt reps with very specific instruction and coaching.   All three coaches that help teach this skill are college level guys who could still execute bunts at a 90+ % success rate in a BP setting.  Yet, still, there are days where our players can't get a bunt down against straight BP pitching to save their lives.  It's mind boggling.   We constantly find ourselves saying "we just covered that" or "we just worked on that" when a player looks clueless with a "little thing" situation or execution opportunity. 

So, it's not always because it doesn't get worked on or the coaches are idiots. 

By the way, Iowamom, be careful.  There are plenty of situations when you do want to throw down to second with runners on 1st & 3rd with two outs.  And even if you don't, you sure don't want to broadcast what you are going to do by not having the MIF cover the bag.  That coach may have been as inept as you say but based on the info given, it is also possible that your 14 y.o. could have learned something. 

I have always been very positive when it comes to speaking about coaches. There are some that are very good at teaching fundamentals and running good practices and others who are not. I see it as it is what it is. I dont think son learned to be a better player from his HS coach, he did from his travel coaches.

Needless to say I agree with PG.  Most players coming out of HS dont really know how to play the game, even nowadays. They can pitch and hit but they really dont know things like in what count do I throw what pitch and why or as PG gave an example about base running.

Does everyone know that laying down the bunt properly is very difficult to do?  Even ML guys cant bunt.

And I agree with CoachB, didn't your kids learn anything in travel ball?  People spent so much money, for what?  There is plenty of blame to go around, don't make your sons HS coach the scapegoat.

JMO

No matter how much you teach something, some tend to catch on quicker.  Some have the "feel" for the game, they understand what the right decision is in most every situation.  For whatever reason some just never get it.  It's partly instinct, but there's more to it than just instincts.  There's more to it than knowing what is the right thing to do. It is a combination of knowing  what to do and also being able to do it instinctively.  This is a very valuable ability especially in a physically talented player.

I actually think it takes a certain type of mind.  Being very intelligent and great academically seems to have very little to do with the feel for the game. For some reason whenever I think about the "feel" for the game, I think of Willie Mays.  I think old timers will understand why.

I totally agree with Coach B25 in that if all these kids are playing travel ball and travel ball is so much better than HS ball then why do they still not get it?  I agree with cabbagedad in that I've taught something one day and next day it's like something they've never seen before.  This is a huge problem that extends out beyond baseball and there are many causes of it.  

Parents who don't hold their kids accountable - it's never their fault why they didn't learn something

Education system that waters everything down - kids don't have the attention span to sit down in class yet video games and youtube hold their attention for hours

Kids not getting outside and playing on their own - can't figure out how to do things on their own because always been brought up with guided supervision

Terrible coaches along the way from LL to HS to Travel to even College

Clearly a "back in my day" thread.

Go44dad posted:

Clearly a "back in my day" thread.

 

I am not sure I really agree.  Son has played at the youth level, high school level, college level, A ball, AA ball, AAA ball and ML spring training and FWIW practice includes all those little things discussed here.  So what you are expecting from the situation, in HS isn't going to always happen. Hopefully each of your sons will come out of HS with individual skills to go to the next level. But understanding all that's involved, they still will practice,practice, practice and hopefully get better and eventually figure it all out.

Baseball isn't a sprint, it's a marathon.  That's why when your son shows up on a college campus and as stated spend lots of hours practicing those little things.

I don't  think HS coach are idiots or fair to say such a thing.  They are more than likely trying to do the best they can with what they have.  You cant always expect someone who gets paid very little or never played the game himself to transform your son into a superstar.  

Ironically, I have a team that does not know much and so, am coaching throughout the game.  One "fan" of another team was somewhat critical of me to one of my parents saying that his team's coach teaches all of that stuff in practice.  Well, so do I.  However, why pass up the chance to reinforce what I coach? 

Something that is missing from this equation is that some players simply don't "get it."  I was working with a hitter the other night on a concept we've talked about.  No matter how much I tried to get this hitter to progress from what I had taught in previous lessons, it just was not happening.  Every player has their "level of competence" and in HS ball, sometimes you get those players. 

cabbagedad posted:

. By the way, Iowamom, be careful.  There are plenty of situations when you do want to throw down to second with runners on 1st & 3rd with two outs.  And even if you don't, you sure don't want to broadcast what you are going to do by not having the MIF cover the bag.  That coach may have been as inept as you say but based on the info given, it is also possible that your 14 y.o. could have learned something. 

 

I honestly don't remember why you wouldn't throw in that situation, but you wouldn't. I mostly remember the incident as I was mortified that my son mouthed off to a coach. I do think he learned that different coaches want different things from players and that's their privilege. And every coach focuses on their own thing, whether it's hitting,  throwing, or on little things. He's learned something from every coach, including the ones who weren't very good. I'm proud of him for that. 

Coaches and teachers have to work with the level of readiness their players and students arrive with. 

When I taught in college, there were times I couldn't believe I had to teach things I thought the students should have mastered in middle school. 

Similarly, when you go to a high school game and wonder why the players can't execute basic plays, it might not be the coach's fault. It's possible he knows full well how to teach those basic plays but found himself forced to spend practice time on something even more remedial based on the skills and knowledge the players brought with them to the tryout.

Swampboy posted:

Coaches and teachers have to work with the level of readiness their players and students arrive with. 

When I taught in college, there were times I couldn't believe I had to teach things I thought the students should have mastered in middle school. 

Similarly, when you go to a high school game and wonder why the players can't execute basic plays, it might not be the coach's fault. It's possible he knows full well how to teach those basic plays but found himself forced to spend practice time on something even more remedial based on the skills and knowledge the players brought with them to the tryout.

I totally agree with the first sentence and with your overall assessment but respectfully disagree that it might not be the coach's fault. 

When we do get players coming in that don't know basics, when we face the challenge of too many things, too little time, when we drill something 100 times but it doesn't seem to stick with everyone, when we think we've tried every angle to help each player see the light, and then players fail to execute or understand, I feel that I have failed and it is my fault. 

Then I keep trying to find ways.  Sometimes it's just another 1,000 reps with proper guidance.  Sometimes it's new language or a fresh set of eyes.  Sometimes it's a complete change of tactics.  Sometimes it's working with what you have, focusing on strengths and working around what a player cannot do or cannot get.  Sometimes it just never happens to a level that I am satisfied.  In fact, it almost never happens to the level that I am satisfied.  I fail a lot.  But I sure enjoy trying and enjoy each of the thousands of small victories that the players do accomplish along the way.  You know, the little things.

cabbagedad posted:

Swampboy posted:

Coaches and teachers have to work with the level of readiness their players and students arrive with. 

When I taught in college, there were times I couldn't believe I had to teach things I thought the students should have mastered in middle school. 

Similarly, when you go to a high school game and wonder why the players can't execute basic plays, it might not be the coach's fault. It's possible he knows full well how to teach those basic plays but found himself forced to spend practice time on something even more remedial based on the skills and knowledge the players brought with them to the tryout.

I totally agree with the first sentence and with your overall assessment but respectfully disagree that it might not be the coach's fault. 

When we do get players coming in that don't know basics, when we face the challenge of too many things, too little time, when we drill something 100 times but it doesn't seem to stick with everyone, when we think we've tried every angle to help each player see the light, and then players fail to execute or understand, I feel that I have failed and it is my fault. 

Then I keep trying to find ways.  Sometimes it's just another 1,000 reps with proper guidance.  Sometimes it's new language or a fresh set of eyes.  Sometimes it's a complete change of tactics.  Sometimes it's working with what you have, focusing on strengths and working around what a player cannot do or cannot get.  Sometimes it just never happens to a level that I am satisfied.  In fact, it almost never happens to the level that I am satisfied.  I fail a lot.  But I sure enjoy trying and enjoy each of the thousands of small victories that the players do accomplish along the way.  You know, the little things.

 

JMO--Whether its coaches or kids, the good ones look for what they can do to make things better or blame themselves for what went wrong. The bad ones look for someone else to blame. 

I have only coached at 1 school. Its a large private school in a large city that plays in a very competitive public school league. We have a lot talented kids come through our school. I feel it is much easier to teach and reinforce the little things to these kids because we don't have to spend so much time on the bigger things. I couldn't imagine coaching at a small HS out in the country where kids might have not played as much as the kids we get. Usually our kids at least know the concepts of double cuts, inside moves to 2B, slide steps, 1st and 3Rd bunt defenses and the sort. We have to fine tune them and tweak them to do things like we want it done but they usually have an idea when we get them. Now as some others stated, they are still kids and even though we've taught them they still have brain farts.

Someone mentioned that you play 3 times a week and that only leaves 2 day for practice. Last time I checked you have 4 days to practice if you play 3. Do HS teams usually not practice on the weekends?

Back in my scouting days, when I saw a player that had the necessary talent, I would glue in on everything he did. I would pay very close attention when that player was a base runner.  And extra attention when he was a base runner at 3B.  That was where I could find out what he knew and how he reacted to situations.

One day at a PG tournament I was gluing in on a certain player when he was a runner at 3B.  He represented the lead run with 2 outs with another runner at 1B. First thing I noticed was the pitcher tried to pick at 1B and immediately he broke towards the plate, stopping after a couple strides and returned to 3B.  This is fairly advanced, most amateur players first move on that play is back towards 3B.  Then a curve ball in the dirt, he once again broke to the plate and then returned when the catcher blocked the ball.  None of the big fake break to the plate and being forced to react back before the catcher even received the ball.  Always in position to react immediately even on a short passed ball as should be with two outs.

In that situation he didn't end up scoring, hitter struck out.  But what I saw was important and impressive on every pitch.  Not just that he knew how to do something, but the automatic way that he did it.  It among other things told me that this kid had that "feel" for the game.  Along with a ton of ability.  I knew that he was a special player, not just a kid with talent.

I wish I could better describe this thing called feel.  In one way it is what a player does that can't be coached.  It's making reactionary decisions with an understanding of the percentages involved.  But that understanding comes naturally.  Sometimes thinking just takes too long.  Also I'm convinced that this is another natural ability.  So those who have it learn what they're taught or coached quicker than others.  They just get it, when something makes sense.

That player I was gluing in on that day was Eric Hosmer.  And anyone interested in watching someone that has a great feel for the game should glue in on him.  He is a very good hitter and defensive player, but it's his feel for the game that makes him so valuable IMO.  Plus I think some of that rubs off on teammates.  BTW, Eric Hosmer has been a champion at every level growing up and now in the Big Leagues. 

PWPW posted:

...

Someone mentioned that you play 3 times a week and that only leaves 2 day for practice. Last time I checked you have 4 days to practice if you play 3. Do HS teams usually not practice on the weekends?

  Against HS Fed rules to practice on Sunday.  But, point is correct regarding other options.

cabbagedad posted:

PWPW posted:

...

Someone mentioned that you play 3 times a week and that only leaves 2 day for practice. Last time I checked you have 4 days to practice if you play 3. Do HS teams usually not practice on the weekends?

  Against HS Fed rules to practice on Sunday.  But, point is correct regarding other options.

Does that apply to every sport? Sunday afternoon is when most football teams do their film work around here. 

I know a lot of HS Teams that practice on Sundays. 

Doing a quick search to verify, I found it in the CIF (California Fed) book but not certain for NFHS...  from CIF...

"Sundays  In order to provide at least one day of respite from involvement in interscholastic athletics each week, no interscholastic  games or practices of any kind are to be held on Sunday. "

This really wasn't supposed to be a TB vs LL thread.  But, since we have both types of players I can say the TB players are more advanced/refined/polished -- not necessarily more talented/athletic. 

We don't practice on Sunday, but will on Saturdays if no game.  If game, they might start early for extra BP. 

But, unfortunately, I get the feeling that our practices are "watered down" based on Coach B25's above post.  I actually prefer a harder, intense practice.  But, right or wrong, schools are different these days. 

When I coached at SSU, I asked John the Head Coach to tell me one inning in advance when he might need a "pinch hitter". Then I sent two hitters [one left and one right] to the batting cage for tee work and warm up. That year our pinch hitters hit .400.  Later in the Fall, I asked John if a hitter with a runner on 2b, less than 2 outs and does not hit the ball to the right side. Can I take him out of the game. Only did once after that never a problem.

When we played the Korean National HS team in Korea, the Korean coaches remove a player for making an error. When we travel to Australia as the Seattle Mariners, each American HS player receives a copy of the Mariners "playbook". They all read this amazing book.

Bob

Goodwill Series Inc.

How is the baserunning that you see at your school? I think most kids know what to do but sometimes you see pretty bad mistakes. I think that is one of the things that a kid really already should learn on the small field. 

In our park the small field is steal - steal - steal.  Most of the time the kid gets to first and he is at 3rd 2 pitches later.  What does that teach him - not much.  He is not going on the pitchers motion - he is just going because he knows he can beat the throw.  SO what does that teach them.  Youth coaches try to control to much in the game now.  My son did play one game in MS against a team that was really good.  The coaches stayed off the field and the kids coached the bases.  I thought that was very interesting.

Alan

Our younger son's HS coaches taught him more than I would have ever imagined.  He was so prepared for college baseball both on the field and off - it would be hard to overstate it.  There isn't a single thing I would change about it.

In fact, so good that I don't think he woulda played D1 baseball without that HS program.  So many folks seem to take credit about how many of 'their players' have moved onto higher levels.  Some of that is poppycock to me.  But this program could very legitimately take tons of credit for their players - yet they rarely seem to do that.

Archbishop Mitty HS, San Jose, CA.  Coach Bill Hutton (now retired) and staff.

Alanj posted:

In our park the small field is steal - steal - steal.  Most of the time the kid gets to first and he is at 3rd 2 pitches later.  What does that teach him - not much.  He is not going on the pitchers motion - he is just going because he knows he can beat the throw.  SO what does that teach them.  Youth coaches try to control to much in the game now.  My son did play one game in MS against a team that was really good.  The coaches stayed off the field and the kids coached the bases.  I thought that was very interesting.

Alan

I would actually like closed bases for longer when Kids start to pitch. the arguement is that open bases teach baserunning, but if every guy on first automatically advances to third that doesn't teach much with regard to baserunning.

There are exceptions. I think sons travel ball coach in HS actually was responsible for a lot of improvements but I believe he really wasn't prepared for what was ahead.

The ironic part is seeing from the coaching level how really little he did know.

Dominik85 posted:

Alanj posted:

In our park the small field is steal - steal - steal.  Most of the time the kid gets to first and he is at 3rd 2 pitches later.  What does that teach him - not much.  He is not going on the pitchers motion - he is just going because he knows he can beat the throw.  SO what does that teach them.  Youth coaches try to control to much in the game now.  My son did play one game in MS against a team that was really good.  The coaches stayed off the field and the kids coached the bases.  I thought that was very interesting.

Alan

I would actually like closed bases for longer when Kids start to pitch. the arguement is that open bases teach baserunning, but if every guy on first automatically advances to third that doesn't teach much with regard to baserunning.

Even more frustrating is that youth coaches often just give up those bases without contest because they're afraid of the possibility of a bad throw leading to more bases.  Might as well just send a kid to 3rd on a walk instead of 1st.