The problem isn't the Little League World Series, it's that we watch it

RJM posted:

PitchingFan posted:

I believe it is still an attempt at a pure representation of talent in a local city.  The problem is the guys who have intentionally formed a team to get to Williamsport by manipulating the process. They are in an area that does not have LL so they form a league and restrict who can play.  They play the minimum games and win.  LL is a recreation league.  My problem also is when they talk about these being the best kids in the nation.  The best teams in the nation would destroy these teams and hit dingers all day long out of those parks.  Plus they would be astounded by the speed the best pitchers in the nation are throwing.  As long as we understand that it is a great opportunity for recreational players it is good.  But it has been blown out of proportion. 

You can’t compare a team of players restricted to a specific area and a travel team that can fly players in from other states. 

 

The emphasized above says it all. It's the parents and our competitive nature that takes this all to the re-donk-ulous level.

My son played LL through Majors (12U) while balancing his travel baseball at the same time. He enjoyed playing on a team with his friends from school and the friendly competitiveness that came with pitching against your best friend. I can still see the smirks on each of their faces as they battled each other and we all laughed about it after those games. Then there were the games in which he played against kids he wasn't terribly fond of, had that chip on his shoulder and wanted to put them in their place.

Comparatively the quality of play was of course worse at the LL than in travel baseball. many kids played LL because either their parents didn't want to put them into a travel ball environment where it was more competitive, or they simply were awful. But there were some players who are currently committed and or playing for major college powerhouses who played in our league or neighboring leagues. It was good baseball once we got to all stars if you take the artificiality of 60 foot base paths, 46 foot mound distance, 200-225' fences, and those stupid 1.15 bpf bats that were hot as hell. Son now plays with a few of those neighboring LL studs on his travel team and they all laugh about those games, how us parents made them out to be so important and cheered so hard for those guys. Our families had a lot of good times with those rivalries...and so did the kids.

60ft bases is really looking like a joke.  some of these kids are as tall or taller than I am.  

Take it for what it's worth - entertainment during the dog days of summer in the MLB season also known as the point in the season where more than 1/2 the teams are no longer really in contention because (generally) large market teams have outspent their rivals to gain an advantage...  Perhaps similar to LL's that want to "get there" - even the Marlins proved at one point you can buy a championship.

old_school posted:

that Taney team from Philly a few years ago, that was garbage from the get go and everyone knew. Add a talented girl to story and a bunch of minority kids and you can do anything you please.

Full disclosure she is a class act and the team was from everything anyone has heard is a real good bunch of kids...but was still a loophole team from a dormant charter.

There wasn’t a LL program in the city. The travel team was all kids from the city. They saw what they had relative to LL. The received a charter covering a population of 1.5M. Their entire travel team fell within the boundaries.  The norm is 20,000.

The ESPN announcers made a big deal it was only their second year in LL. It didn’t matter. They had been together as a travel team since the kids were eight. 

12 is just too young, and here's why I believe that:

When I was 10 our 12-year old team won the US championship before losing in the final game to Taiwan in Williamsport.  They were nearly deified in my hometown, which wasn't all that big at the time.  

When I was 12, I made the team.  Our team was loaded - four kids who went on to play ball in Power 5 conferences (one an All-American), a CFB player and another guy who played 14 years in the Association.  I was none of those guys.  I was the spot starter and reliever who struck out or walked or hit everyone I faced.  I knew that our town - even our local media - expected us to go very far because we seemed better than the previous group who were US champs.  We were a regional news story as we breezed through the first rounds.

Got to the Norcal final when our future AA broke his leg and I had to take the ball in an elimination game.   As I recall it went walk, hit batsman, error (by me), walk, home run, pulled and sent to play right, error on me in right, meltdown....and scene.  

I cannot tell you how much I felt I had let my entire community down.  It's a silly notion to adult me, and a horrifying thought to father me, but it made perfect sense to 12-year old me.  That's why I think the hype around the LLWS is so damaging.  12 was too young for me.

OskiSD posted:

12 is just too young, and here's why I believe that:

When I was 10 our 12-year old team won the US championship before losing in the final game to Taiwan in Williamsport.  They were nearly deified in my hometown, which wasn't all that big at the time.  

When I was 12, I made the team.  Our team was loaded - four kids who went on to play ball in Power 5 conferences (one an All-American), a CFB player and another guy who played 14 years in the Association.  I was none of those guys.  I was the spot starter and reliever who struck out or walked or hit everyone I faced.  I knew that our town - even our local media - expected us to go very far because we seemed better than the previous group who were US champs.  We were a regional news story as we breezed through the first rounds.

Got to the Norcal final when our future AA broke his leg and I had to take the ball in an elimination game.   As I recall it went walk, hit batsman, error (by me), walk, home run, pulled and sent to play right, error on me in right, meltdown....and scene.  

I cannot tell you how much I felt I had let my entire community down.  It's a silly notion to adult me, and a horrifying thought to father me, but it made perfect sense to 12-year old me.  That's why I think the hype around the LLWS is so damaging.  12 was too young for me.

 

So how long were you in therapy? 

CTbballDad posted:

old_school posted:

yea I agree...but I watch them. I actually enjoy them. I also watch NCAA softball all spring long, NCAA baseball, I will watch the legion WS coming shortly, I have been known to attend legion games at the state regional level even while my sons were playing the travel circuit instead of legion.

I am a baseball guy but I get tired of the MLB - I get tired of modern baseball the way it is played. I actually think the MLB has huge problem because if you start to loose guys like me you have a MAJOR problem.

Demographic - 50ish, have disposable income, every male member of my family for 3 generations have played, coached and traveled to play. Vacations were almost always taken in August because skipping a week of football is fine but we never missed a baseball weekend.

Still love the MLB stretch run and playoffs...October is awesome.

 

Personally, I find the Spring Softball and Baseball CWS weeks the best stretch of sports there is.  It used to be March Madness, but they've over-hyped over the past years.  It's gotten to the point I actually believe they setup the brackets to try to conjur up upsets, etc.  But, conspiracy theories aside, I'm trusting Softball/Baseball CWS won't get there.

They will if the money ever gets big enough.  I think it is a safe bet that neither will ever get that big if in fact ESPN's heyday is already behind it - which I bet it is. 

So to me that means there will be no pressure to goose the formats or where the tournaments are held.  Omaha and OKC are a nice midwestern feel for semi pro ball that still has a big dash of boolah boolah in it.

RJM posted:

catchmeifucan posted:

First I will say that the same thing is wrong with the LLWS as travel baseball.  Having kids who can be as much as a year older than other kids, at the age of 12 or 13, is just not right.  Kids can grow as much as a foot and gain 50 lbs in that time span.  But more importantly, some have developed muscles and some haven't.  Eliminating anyone who is older the 12 as of the end of LL season would fix the problem, but the games would probably be very boring so LL is never going to do that.  We watch for the side show. 

I remember watching the LLWS when I was 12 or 13 and thinking that these teams weren't very good (except maybe Taiwan).  Sure they had one or two really big kids who if they pitch once a week will dominate other teams.  But overall, back then I was unimpressed.  I am ashamed to say I watched to reinforce my belief that the LL WS was a joke.  

 

What we maybe fail to realize, I think, is that they are not watched for being good at baseball. They are watched for being a side show. For being something that most people think is kind of a joke. Where one or two big players can dominate, win games and become heroes for a summer and then crawl back into the world of competitive baseball where they aren't standouts because the competition is just better and they can't do things that are absent form their game like hit good curve balls, run the bases, or play OF because the fence  is 400 feet rather than 200 feet.     

I am still ashamed to say I watch to reinforce my belief that the LLWS is a joke, and I think many other people do as well.  

LL didn’t have 13yos until 2006 and the games were exciting. They’re returning to no 13yos next year. The cutoff date returns to 7/31. No one will be thirteen during the season. Some will turn thirteen by the LLWS. But no one will be thirteen 13yo 3.5 months at the LLWS anymore.

LL is kids playing baseball. There’s nothing wrong with that. The LLWS has always been a piece of Americana. There was a time where every kid played baseball.

What draws the channel surfing  casual baseball fan is the regionalism of the LLWS. A person can be drawn to rooting for a region. When a casual fan channel surfs past a travel game between the Bombers and the Aces he can’t relate.

Most of the stars in the LLWS are also travel standouts. The team we lost to in our state that went on to the LLWS when my son was that age had nine of eleven players go on to college baseball. Three played D1. One led a P5 in hitting one season. When they were all seniors in high school they won the large high school state championship. 

"Most of the stars in the LLWS are also travel standouts. The team we lost to in our state that went on to the LLWS when my son was that age had nine of eleven players go on to college baseball. Three played D1. One led a P5 in hitting one season. When they were all seniors in high school they won the large high school state championship. "

9 of 11 from a little league all star team, form the same town (or thereabouts) who I presume went to the same HS (because you say they won a state championship) went on to play college baseball?  So 9 of 11 kids from essentially the same 10 or so square miles?  That is either a REALLY amazing statistic, or an exaggeration.     I trust you on this but it's not the norm. How many travel kids at 12 or 13 remain that good through HS?  For 3 of the past 4 years my son has been on the best team in our state and team that ended up bein ranked top 5 either in USSSA or PG (from 10-13u) and I doubt that will be the case for even those teams (and the kids were from all over our state).  Many of the kids are fading or getting caught up in the timing of puberty or the natural progression of their own genetics.   Maybe that own in Ohio had power outage exactly nine months before May 1 of the year those kids turned 13 LOL.  Whatever the reason, many of these kids are not star travel ball players and most of them don't train like them. Sure, some of the communities are looking up major rosters and recruiting kids who don't play LL to join these teams but most LLs are run buy guys with kids that play LL and they aren't going to put together at team like that for anyone but their own kids. 

The kids stayed together as a travel team in 13u and 14u. 5hey didn’t win any tournaments. But they were very competitive. By 16u some had to get into exposure programs.

Ironically the star pitcher didn’t get better after 14u. He physically peaked at twelve. But a kid from a nearby district became the star high school pitcher. He’s now in AA. The other LL pitcher also pitched in D1. First, short, third and center played D1. One led the ACC in hitting one year.

The LL that won states the year before eventually had three players drafted. When the players who alternate as pitcher and catcher are future pro prospects the team is going to be good. But they all attended different high schools. Two attended privates.

The age cutoff is not going back to 7/31 next year. It is going to 8/31, so there will be no 13 year olds, even in the LLWS, starting next year.

Also, RJM's stats don't seem amazing to me. He said 3 went on to play D1 . . . from the large school state championship HS team (in a large state), that seems normal. Low, even.

The Huntington Beach LL team -- from about 4 square miles -- that won the LLWS in 2011 had a 2017 first-round draft pick (Nick Pratto), a 2017 second-round draft pick (Hagen Danner), and at least two other current D1 players (Braydon Salzman -- LMU, and Trevor Windisch -- Oregon). 

2019Dad posted:

The age cutoff is not going back to 7/31 next year. It is going to 8/31, so there will be no 13 year olds, even in the LLWS, starting next year.

Also, RJM's stats don't seem amazing to me. He said 3 went on to play D1 . . . from the large school state championship HS team (in a large state), that seems normal. Low, even.

The Huntington Beach LL team -- from about 4 square miles -- that won the LLWS in 2011 had a 2017 first-round draft pick (Nick Pratto), a 2017 second-round draft pick (Hagen Danner), and at least two other current D1 players (Braydon Salzman -- LMU, and Trevor Windisch -- Oregon). 

That's a damn densely populated 4 square miles, though.

My son's LL All Star team has one D1 commit and that is it so far. Will be interesting to see how this progresses by next summer, they were a pretty good team and I hope more of the boys get their chance as well. Team that was our Achilles Heel has exactly (1) D1 commit, and they lost in the regional championship (so close, but so far away). That team has a lot of guys who should commit between now and next summer.

I catch an inning or two while I am cooking dinner.  I like watching it, good kid baseball, kids having fun.  Brings back a lot of memories, at least the time-filtered kind where you remember the fun part of little league.  And laugh at "so and so" who "moved" three times in three years trying to guess which little league was going to Williamsport and other transgressions.

Then this thread bumps back up to the top.

catchmeifucan posted:

 

9 of 11 from a little league all star team, form the same town (or thereabouts) who I presume went to the same HS (because you say they won a state championship) went on to play college baseball?  So 9 of 11 kids from essentially the same 10 or so square miles?  That is either a REALLY amazing statistic, or an exaggeration.     I trust you on this but it's not the norm. How many travel kids at 12 or 13 remain that good through HS?  For 3 of the past 4 years my son has been on the best team in our state and team that ended up bein ranked top 5 either in USSSA or PG (from 10-13u) and I doubt that will be the case for even those teams (and the kids were from all over our state).  Many of the kids are fading or getting caught up in the timing of puberty or the natural progression of their own genetics.   Maybe that own in Ohio had power outage exactly nine months before May 1 of the year those kids turned 13 LOL.  Whatever the reason, many of these kids are not star travel ball players and most of them don't train like them. Sure, some of the communities are looking up major rosters and recruiting kids who don't play LL to join these teams but most LLs are run buy guys with kids that play LL and they aren't going to put together at team like that for anyone but their own kids. 

Don't know if this happens in baseball, but our newly hired football coach went to our principal and suggested we use school funds to build dorms for football transfers.  He said he'd get the kids from other states and even other countries and that this is what the top football teams around the country do.  He was promptly let go on the spot.  

2019Dad posted:

The age cutoff is not going back to 7/31 next year. It is going to 8/31, so there will be no 13 year olds, even in the LLWS, starting next year.

Also, RJM's stats don't seem amazing to me. He said 3 went on to play D1 . . . from the large school state championship HS team (in a large state), that seems normal. Low, even.

The Huntington Beach LL team -- from about 4 square miles -- that won the LLWS in 2011 had a 2017 first-round draft pick (Nick Pratto), a 2017 second-round draft pick (Hagen Danner), and at least two other current D1 players (Braydon Salzman -- LMU, and Trevor Windisch -- Oregon). 

It was five D1 from the LL and six from the high school. The previous year LL state champion had three drafted. One D1, a D2 and one high pick out of high school.

My son’s team had five D1’s and eight total college players from when he was eleven. His next year they had great athletes who could out muscle and out run the small field. But only five played high school baseball/three college. The rest went on to excel in other sports. Several played college in those sports.

And on to the 11th with the most exciting baseball game televised today. 

Go44dad posted:

And on to the 11th with the most exciting baseball game televised today. 

And ALOHA means goodbye.......Nice bat flip!

I tell myself I'm not going to watch, then I turn on the TV at the end of a game and see a team stage a comeback walk-off win.  I turn off the TV, turn it on again hours later and they're playing a scoreless game in the 9th that ends with a walk-off HR.

I don't see how I can resist watching those two teams play each other tomorrow.

Given the height of the pitcher and batter tonight  the distance between the rubber and home plate looks like 20 feet  

All I know is every year my 3 boys, wife and I start out by saying we won’t watch much. Then, like most other shows that we act indifferently to at first, we get hooked and have a blast watching. Some incredible finishes so far and I think ESPN/MLB doing nice job. Can always find something wrong but still more positives in my opinion. The MI game today and now this TX-GA game tonight have been exciting and fun as each family member now has a favorite. If this is a problem, it’s a good one in my family book. 

TX-GA game. Speechless. How can you not love watching these boys give their all?Was worried about the GA closer after he gave up that game winning homerun to Hawaii in the 11th inning. He came back to close this game and get the game winning sac fly. A bunch of these kids are on my son's travel team. So stinking proud of them.