The problem isn't the Little League World Series, it's that we watch it

I was watching last night the game with Asia and California. Did the LL World series move to 50/70?  

I will preference with I have not read the linked article, yet...

LL has a 50/70 division, but it never grew in popularity like they expected.  About 7 years ago they expected this to take over the 40/60 game and allow them to compete with travel ball.  This never happened but they division lives on.

A good friend of mine was umping the 50/70 games last year out in CA.  We were planning a trip to CA at the same time so we added a few extra days to go to the games and support him.  I will say LL did a great job at the games of making the event about the kids.  I got to know a lot of the players, coaches and umps, and every single one of them were great people.  In my years playing local LL and travel ball I have never seen a group of parents, players, coaches, umps, officials and others caring about the opponent as much as this group did.

Joe, I respectfully disagree that LL expected its 50-70 league to take over. Having been involved  at the local level with the beginning of 50-70, I don't think they had any idea what they were doing. 

There was a lot of pressure and concern about travel and Cal Ripken, both at 50-70 eating into LL's niche, and of course a lot of discussion about how the LLWS was getting nutty with oversize kids (the 2011 LLWS champs having 2 kids who ended up as 1st and 2nd round draft choices out of HS helped with that).

But while many leagues were clamoring for something to help keep kids from leaving for travel ball, others were wedded to tradition, and/or saying that they didn't have the ability to convert their fields to 50-70.  In the end, LL  punted. 

Good article.  This is to an excess.  Do we really need to televise all those games?  I am guilty of stopping and watching a few innings of the LLWS final for the feel good nature of it - but now maybe i should re-think it!

JCG posted:

Joe, I respectfully disagree that LL expected its 50-70 league to take over. Having been involved  at the local level with the beginning of 50-70, I don't think they had any idea what they were doing. 

There was a lot of pressure and concern about travel and Cal Ripken, both at 50-70 eating into LL's niche, and of course a lot of discussion about how the LLWS was getting nutty with oversize kids (the 2011 LLWS champs having 2 kids who ended up as 1st and 2nd round draft choices out of HS helped with that).

But while many leagues were clamoring for something to help keep kids from leaving for travel ball, others were wedded to tradition, and/or saying that they didn't have the ability to convert their fields to 50-70.  In the end, LL  punted. 

Well, this year they instituted new bats without the same pop (now similar to BBCOR) and next year they won't have the 13 year olds -- the age cut-off is changing from April 30th to Aug. 31st -- so the 46-60 field will make more sense with those two changes.

JCG posted:

Joe, I respectfully disagree that LL expected its 50-70 league to take over. Having been involved  at the local level with the beginning of 50-70, I don't think they had any idea what they were doing. 

There was a lot of pressure and concern about travel and Cal Ripken, both at 50-70 eating into LL's niche, and of course a lot of discussion about how the LLWS was getting nutty with oversize kids (the 2011 LLWS champs having 2 kids who ended up as 1st and 2nd round draft choices out of HS helped with that).

But while many leagues were clamoring for something to help keep kids from leaving for travel ball, others were wedded to tradition, and/or saying that they didn't have the ability to convert their fields to 50-70.  In the end, LL  punted. 

No problems with this.  My kid was aging out of LL when they added the new division.  At the time it appeared (at least in our area) they were pushing kids to choose the new division and it appeared they were favoring this over the majors division.  As LL is a national organization it could have just been the district in our area doing this.

The  every day LL games you don’t see on TV are not intended to be travel ball. It works well for the average kid to have fun playing ball and get some exercise.

Our LL had two majors field. Both were up against physical boundaries. The infield could be made 50/70. But the outfield fences couldn’t be moved back.

i can understand a regional sports network picking up their region on tv. Or an in state station broadcasting their state champion’s games. But national broadcasts of regional games is over the top. 

yea I agree...but I watch them. I actually enjoy them. I also watch NCAA softball all spring long, NCAA baseball, I will watch the legion WS coming shortly, I have been known to attend legion games at the state regional level even while my sons were playing the travel circuit instead of legion.

I am a baseball guy but I get tired of the MLB - I get tired of modern baseball the way it is played. I actually think the MLB has huge problem because if you start to loose guys like me you have a MAJOR problem.

Demographic - 50ish, have disposable income, every male member of my family for 3 generations have played, coached and traveled to play. Vacations were almost always taken in August because skipping a week of football is fine but we never missed a baseball weekend.

Still love the MLB stretch run and playoffs...October is awesome.

I'm with you, Old School.  Don't tell my wife, but I expect that when my kid's playing days are over I will be one of those guys who has attended a game at every pro or college venue within 100 miles of my home.  Actually, come to think of it, I already have, except for a few Jucos. But we're moving soon to an area that has a lot more MiLB baseball, so I'm looking forward to getting around my new turf.

Good article.  I disagree somewhat only because I personally choose to see the good and, generally, there is a heck of a lot of good with LL baseball, including the dream of youngsters to make it to the LL World Series and the event that it is.  

If wrongdoers are discovered, kick 'em out and move forward.  I think LL takes reasonable measures and I think the realignment of the age cutoff is a good one.  There are always realistic limitations as to how much an organization like this can police things.  The hope is that those in charge of local leagues will have integrity and police themselves.

It's still a heck of a lot better option to watch on ESPN than cornhole, dodgeball and video games...  IMO.  Looking forward to watching the little guys play baseball and see how close they can come to Williamsport.

Well it's 7 divisions so I guess it's only about 33 games per division.  All I know is that if we're cheating we better win, unless other teams are even better cheaters than us.

old_school posted:

yea I agree...but I watch them. I actually enjoy them. I also watch NCAA softball all spring long, NCAA baseball, I will watch the legion WS coming shortly, I have been known to attend legion games at the state regional level even while my sons were playing the travel circuit instead of legion.

I am a baseball guy but I get tired of the MLB - I get tired of modern baseball the way it is played. I actually think the MLB has huge problem because if you start to loose guys like me you have a MAJOR problem.

Demographic - 50ish, have disposable income, every male member of my family for 3 generations have played, coached and traveled to play. Vacations were almost always taken in August because skipping a week of football is fine but we never missed a baseball weekend.

Still love the MLB stretch run and playoffs...October is awesome.

 

Personally, I find the Spring Softball and Baseball CWS weeks the best stretch of sports there is.  It used to be March Madness, but they've over-hyped over the past years.  It's gotten to the point I actually believe they setup the brackets to try to conjur up upsets, etc.  But, conspiracy theories aside, I'm trusting Softball/Baseball CWS won't get there.

cabbagedad posted:

Good article.  I disagree somewhat only because I personally choose to see the good and, generally, there is a heck of a lot of good with LL baseball, including the dream of youngsters to make it to the LL World Series and the event that it is.  

If wrongdoers are discovered, kick 'em out and move forward.  I think LL takes reasonable measures and I think the realignment of the age cutoff is a good one.  There are always realistic limitations as to how much an organization like this can police things.  The hope is that those in charge of local leagues will have integrity and police themselves.

It's still a heck of a lot better option to watch on ESPN than cornhole, dodgeball and video games...  IMO.  Looking forward to watching the little guys play baseball and see how close they can come to Williamsport.

I don’t know on the ESPN programming. Corn Hole has a new division. Not sure it’s been picked up yet. 

https://www.facebook.com/17804...s/10209579589364820/

cabbagedad posted:

Good article.  I disagree somewhat only because I personally choose to see the good and, generally, there is a heck of a lot of good with LL baseball, including the dream of youngsters to make it to the LL World Series and the event that it is.  

If wrongdoers are discovered, kick 'em out and move forward.  I think LL takes reasonable measures and I think the realignment of the age cutoff is a good one.  There are always realistic limitations as to how much an organization like this can police things.  The hope is that those in charge of local leagues will have integrity and police themselves.

It's still a heck of a lot better option to watch on ESPN than cornhole, dodgeball and video games...  IMO.  Looking forward to watching the little guys play baseball and see how close they can come to Williamsport.

OMG I could not believe it when I was flipping channels and saw a cornhole broadcast.  I mean, poker is bad enough, but maybe you could learn something by watching it, but cornhole??!!

Go44dad posted:

cabbagedad posted:

Good article.  I disagree somewhat only because I personally choose to see the good and, generally, there is a heck of a lot of good with LL baseball, including the dream of youngsters to make it to the LL World Series and the event that it is.  

If wrongdoers are discovered, kick 'em out and move forward.  I think LL takes reasonable measures and I think the realignment of the age cutoff is a good one.  There are always realistic limitations as to how much an organization like this can police things.  The hope is that those in charge of local leagues will have integrity and police themselves.

It's still a heck of a lot better option to watch on ESPN than cornhole, dodgeball and video games...  IMO.  Looking forward to watching the little guys play baseball and see how close they can come to Williamsport.

I don’t know on the ESPN programming. Corn Hole has a new division. Not sure it’s been picked up yet. 

https://www.facebook.com/17804...s/10209579589364820/

Hahaha... was guessing something more along the bikini variety but that was funny.

JCG posted:

cabbagedad posted:

Good article.  I disagree somewhat only because I personally choose to see the good and, generally, there is a heck of a lot of good with LL baseball, including the dream of youngsters to make it to the LL World Series and the event that it is.  

If wrongdoers are discovered, kick 'em out and move forward.  I think LL takes reasonable measures and I think the realignment of the age cutoff is a good one.  There are always realistic limitations as to how much an organization like this can police things.  The hope is that those in charge of local leagues will have integrity and police themselves.

It's still a heck of a lot better option to watch on ESPN than cornhole, dodgeball and video games...  IMO.  Looking forward to watching the little guys play baseball and see how close they can come to Williamsport.

OMG I could not believe it when I was flipping channels and saw a cornhole broadcast.  I mean, poker is bad enough, but maybe you could learn something by watching it, but cornhole??!!

With all honesty, I will play/watch 100 times more cornhole in the coming weeks than I will watch the LL World Series.  Zero interest in the Little League organization which has made baseball unwatchable for me.  Cornhole is played everywhere and it gets very serious during the ACC football/tailgating season.   Professional cornhole on ESPN would be a dream come true....Johnsonville brats as your sponsor, mmmm! 

It took sometime but MLB has caught up to the LLWS game. For the past several years, mostly strikeouts and HRs. I'll watch while the State Team is still in it, or West Coast games if I'm up. It was six years ago, but I really appreciated this AB  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hesrUzhQ2Sk

My son is 12u going into 13u this coming fall.  A handful of his travel teammates are in one of the teams in the regional tournament.  I'm addressing this point: "They’re really for the adults, making them feel worthwhile as parents, allowing them to boast to co-workers at the water cooler Monday morning, allowing them to post team photos on Facebook with medals and braces glistening in the sunlight."

While watching the game last night, my son was stomping around the house angry and frustrated asking why we didn't find a way for him to play with that little league.  He was asking why we couldn't have put him in a private school in that district for the year or have stay with a foster family in that district.  I told him he's crazy to even think that's realistic or even feasible.  While I would have enjoyed seeing him on ESPN, it's not worth upending our family to do so.  I am just saying that what the author wrote that this is really for the adults is an unfair over-generalization.  A lot of the kids I know who is passionate about baseball want this experience more so than the parents.

Say what you want about LL and the LLWS and the rules and the field size, etc, etc, etc.....but if you've never been to the LLWS in person, as a baseball fan you owe it to yourself to make the trip to Williamsport.  You won't be disappointed.  We've been there twice in the past and my son and I are planning to go again next year as a vacation / present for him finishing up college in the Spring.  Really looking forward to it.

2019Dad posted:

Well, this year they instituted new bats without the same pop (now similar to BBCOR) and next year they won't have the 13 year olds -- the age cut-off is changing from April 30th to Aug. 31st -- so the 46-60 field will make more sense with those two changes.

Is it me, or does it seem like they've been *trying* to get rid of 13 YOs for like 3-4 years now? What's the deal (but maybe it is just me)...

fenwaysouth posted:

...  Professional cornhole on ESPN would be a dream come true....Johnsonville brats as your sponsor, mmmm! 

In case you really aren't aware, Fenway...

http://www.espn.com/watch/play...=3399369&lang=es

Florida State Fan posted:

I was watching last night the game with Asia and California. Did the LL World series move to 50/70?  

That was the Intermediate World Series - 13 year olds.  They play on a 50/70 diamond.

cabbagedad posted:

fenwaysouth posted:

...  Professional cornhole on ESPN would be a dream come true....Johnsonville brats as your sponsor, mmmm! 

In case you really aren't aware, Fenway...

http://www.espn.com/watch/play...=3399369&lang=es

 

To clarify....I meant for me!

I don't enjoy the Little League World Series anymore.  Never really felt strongly compelled to watch it, but did get pulled in occasionally when my kid was into watching it.

I find the LLWS to be brutal objectification of kids, for extreme profit, and ESPN is just over the top bad.  The Baseball isn't even "real Baseball" to me, either... Small fields, no lead offs etc.  ESPN cashing in on nostalgia is not appealing to me, in the slightest.

My son's LL team made it to the semis of a regional a few years back.  It was televised.  It was very exciting and fun for the kids and families.  LL does a good job dealing directly with the kids - the volunteers that are working with the kids genuinely want it to be a fun experience for them.

I met a parent from a team that had just been eliminated who was telling me about the complaint her son's team manager had filed with LL against another team over kids with forged residency and age documentation.  She said they had proof - they had paid a substantial amount of money to a PI.  I thought she (and whomever hired and paid the PI) was crazy, but I did notice that when the team at issue won and went to the LLWS, a few of the kids were no longer on the roster.  Who knows what really happened?    

A lot of the LL players are on travel teams, too.  Mine was.  The travel schedule ended before LL tourneys started, so it wasn't an issue.  There was also a team at regionals made up entirely of a travel team that had sought a LL charter that year specifically trying to get to the LLWS.  They got the charter, held tryouts, did the minimum number of games, picked the all stars, won their state tourney....  Entirely legal under LL rules because there wasn't an active charter already in that area.  Those kids and parents had just as much fun as everyone else did at the regional.  They were the runners-up, if I recall correctly.  Nice group.    

I used to watch it regularly when my son was at or slightly past LLWS age. Lost interest.

To me, in the end, the Williamsport competitors are dominated by those teams fortunate enough to have more than a few freakishly big/strong players who also pitch and hit 275' line drives. That is, hit puberty early. I think this has been done somewhere: a chart of average height of player on teams that win a district vs. state, vs. regional, vs. championship in Williamsport.

I think getting rid of 13 YOs will help, if they'd ever actually do it...

I'm with getting rid of 13yo's. 12yo's shouldn't have to face 80mph fastballs from 46ft.  

Florida State Fan posted:

I was watching last night the game with Asia and California. Did the LL World series move to 50/70?  

That's the intermediate division. A step above what is played in Williamsport.

First I will say that the same thing is wrong with the LLWS as travel baseball.  Having kids who can be as much as a year older than other kids, at the age of 12 or 13, is just not right.  Kids can grow as much as a foot and gain 50 lbs in that time span.  But more importantly, some have developed muscles and some haven't.  Eliminating anyone who is older the 12 as of the end of LL season would fix the problem, but the games would probably be very boring so LL is never going to do that.  We watch for the side show. 

I remember watching the LLWS when I was 12 or 13 and thinking that these teams weren't very good (except maybe Taiwan).  Sure they had one or two really big kids who if they pitch once a week will dominate other teams.  But overall, back then I was unimpressed.  I am ashamed to say I watched to reinforce my belief that the LL WS was a joke.  

What we maybe fail to realize, I think, is that they are not watched for being good at baseball. They are watched for being a side show. For being something that most people think is kind of a joke. Where one or two big players can dominate, win games and become heroes for a summer and then crawl back into the world of competitive baseball where they aren't standouts because the competition is just better and they can't do things that are absent form their game like hit good curve balls, run the bases, or play OF because the fence  is 400 feet rather than 200 feet.     

I am still ashamed to say I watch to reinforce my belief that the LLWS is a joke, and I think many other people do as well.  

catchmeifucan posted:

First I will say that the same thing is wrong with the LLWS as travel baseball.  Having kids who can be as much as a year older than other kids, at the age of 12 or 13, is just not right.  Kids can grow as much as a foot and gain 50 lbs in that time span.  But more importantly, some have developed muscles and some haven't.  Eliminating anyone who is older the 12 as of the end of LL season would fix the problem, but the games would probably be very boring so LL is never going to do that.  We watch for the side show. 

I remember watching the LLWS when I was 12 or 13 and thinking that these teams weren't very good (except maybe Taiwan).  Sure they had one or two really big kids who if they pitch once a week will dominate other teams.  But overall, back then I was unimpressed.  I am ashamed to say I watched to reinforce my belief that the LL WS was a joke.  

 

What we maybe fail to realize, I think, is that they are not watched for being good at baseball. They are watched for being a side show. For being something that most people think is kind of a joke. Where one or two big players can dominate, win games and become heroes for a summer and then crawl back into the world of competitive baseball where they aren't standouts because the competition is just better and they can't do things that are absent form their game like hit good curve balls, run the bases, or play OF because the fence  is 400 feet rather than 200 feet.     

I am still ashamed to say I watch to reinforce my belief that the LLWS is a joke, and I think many other people do as well.  

LL didn’t have 13yos until 2006 and the games were exciting. They’re returning to no 13yos next year. The cutoff date returns to 7/31. No one will be thirteen during the season. Some will turn thirteen by the LLWS. But no one will be thirteen 13yo 3.5 months at the LLWS anymore.

LL is kids playing baseball. There’s nothing wrong with that. The LLWS has always been a piece of Americana. There was a time where every kid played baseball.

What draws the channel surfing  casual baseball fan is the regionalism of the LLWS. A person can be drawn to rooting for a region. When a casual fan channel surfs past a travel game between the Bombers and the Aces he can’t relate.

Most of the stars in the LLWS are also travel standouts. The team we lost to in our state that went on to the LLWS when my son was that age had nine of eleven players go on to college baseball. Three played D1. One led a P5 in hitting one season. When they were all seniors in high school they won the large high school state championship. 

Danny Almonte

RJM posted:

catchmeifucan posted:

First I will say that the same thing is wrong with the LLWS as travel baseball.  Having kids who can be as much as a year older than other kids, at the age of 12 or 13, is just not right.  Kids can grow as much as a foot and gain 50 lbs in that time span.  But more importantly, some have developed muscles and some haven't.  Eliminating anyone who is older the 12 as of the end of LL season would fix the problem, but the games would probably be very boring so LL is never going to do that.  We watch for the side show. 

I remember watching the LLWS when I was 12 or 13 and thinking that these teams weren't very good (except maybe Taiwan).  Sure they had one or two really big kids who if they pitch once a week will dominate other teams.  But overall, back then I was unimpressed.  I am ashamed to say I watched to reinforce my belief that the LL WS was a joke.  

 

What we maybe fail to realize, I think, is that they are not watched for being good at baseball. They are watched for being a side show. For being something that most people think is kind of a joke. Where one or two big players can dominate, win games and become heroes for a summer and then crawl back into the world of competitive baseball where they aren't standouts because the competition is just better and they can't do things that are absent form their game like hit good curve balls, run the bases, or play OF because the fence  is 400 feet rather than 200 feet.     

I am still ashamed to say I watch to reinforce my belief that the LLWS is a joke, and I think many other people do as well.  

LL didn’t have 13yos until 2006 and the games were exciting. They’re returning to no 13yos next year. The cutoff date returns to 7/31. No one will be thirteen during the season. Some will turn thirteen by the LLWS. But no one will be thirteen 13yo 3.5 months at the LLWS anymore.

LL is kids playing baseball. There’s nothing wrong with that. The LLWS has always been a piece of Americana. There was a time where every kid played baseball.

What draws the channel surfing  asual baseball fan is the regionalism of the LLWS. A person can be drawn to rooting for a region. When a casual fan channel surfs past a travel game between the Bombers and the Aces he can’t relate.

Most of the stars in the LLWS are also travel standouts. The team we lost to in our state that went on to the LLWS when my son was that age had nine of eleven players go on to college baseball. Three played D1. One led a P5 in hitting one season. When they were all seniors in high school they won the large high school state championship. 

Shoveit4Ks dropped the bombshell, Danny Almonte. He's a symptom of the problem: parents. I know I have read that there is a Little League out in California (Eastlake) who filed a complaint about a neighboring league (Park View) regarding cheating the boundary rules of LL. Gee, don't both of these leagues have a history of sending teams deep into the LL tournament playoffs? Sounds like both leagues are doing some nefarious things to be that competitive year after year, because it seems in my son's league that talent kind of came in waves, it wasn't so consistent.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/ne...Nasty-488437641.html

Now we have leagues hiring private investigators to see where players live and what schools they attend. Why? Is it really that important? It seems to be...to the parents. But when presented the evidence, LL turned a blind eye apparently, and neighboring LL leagues are feuding. It's all gotten out of hand, mostly because of the television exposure...and the parents.

In a nutshell, it's just not pure any longer. Oh, and the baseball is probably about as good as it was 10-20 years ago. We just get more critical of it as our kids age and improve and that is what we become used to. I watched Rhode Island (I think) stage a 6-run come from behind win in the bottom of the 6th against New Hampshire last week, that was entertaining and heartbreaking at the same time. The NH pitchers just wilted under pressure. Perhaps they should not have to face that kind of pressure at that age? Or maybe in the view of some it's time for them to pull on their big boy pants and man up...

RJM posted:

catchmeifucan posted:

First I will say that the same thing is wrong with the LLWS as travel baseball.  Having kids who can be as much as a year older than other kids, at the age of 12 or 13, is just not right.  Kids can grow as much as a foot and gain 50 lbs in that time span.  But more importantly, some have developed muscles and some haven't.  Eliminating anyone who is older the 12 as of the end of LL season would fix the problem, but the games would probably be very boring so LL is never going to do that.  We watch for the side show. 

I remember watching the LLWS when I was 12 or 13 and thinking that these teams weren't very good (except maybe Taiwan).  Sure they had one or two really big kids who if they pitch once a week will dominate other teams.  But overall, back then I was unimpressed.  I am ashamed to say I watched to reinforce my belief that the LL WS was a joke.  

 

What we maybe fail to realize, I think, is that they are not watched for being good at baseball. They are watched for being a side show. For being something that most people think is kind of a joke. Where one or two big players can dominate, win games and become heroes for a summer and then crawl back into the world of competitive baseball where they aren't standouts because the competition is just better and they can't do things that are absent form their game like hit good curve balls, run the bases, or play OF because the fence  is 400 feet rather than 200 feet.     

I am still ashamed to say I watch to reinforce my belief that the LLWS is a joke, and I think many other people do as well.  

LL didn’t have 13yos until 2006 and the games were exciting. They’re returning to no 13yos next year. The cutoff date returns to 7/31. No one will be thirteen during the season. Some will turn thirteen by the LLWS. But no one will be thirteen 13yo 3.5 months at the LLWS anymore.

LL is kids playing baseball. There’s nothing wrong with that. The LLWS has always been a piece of Americana. There was a time where every kid played baseball.

What draws the channel surfing  asual baseball fan is the regionalism of the LLWS. A person can be drawn to rooting for a region. When a casual fan channel surfs past a travel game between the Bombers and the Aces he can’t relate.

Most of the stars in the LLWS are also travel standouts. The team we lost to in our state that went on to the LLWS when my son was that age had nine of eleven players go on to college baseball. Three played D1. One led a P5 in hitting one season. When they were all seniors in high school they won the large high school state championship. 

The attitude towards LL baseball varies from region to region, IMO.  What RJM states is the case in New England may not be true in another part of the country.  His comments certainly do not apply to North Texas.  LL is held in very low esteem here and the better players here have no interest in LL. The best 12 & 13 year olds in DFW have been playing competitive travel ball for a couple of years already. LL is a big step backwards for these kids and they want nothing to do with it. The Texas teams that reach the LLWS have one or two players that play for good travel ball teams - but usually no more than that. Most of the players on the Texas teams are not good enough to play for one of the better travel teams in their area.  That doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with these kids playing baseball - and it doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with any of them getting the LLWS experience.  But (with a rare exception) the Texas players are not even close to being the better players in their age groups - and to see how ESPN glorifies all these (mostly) marginally talented kids is a total joke and is absolutely nauseating.  On a TV broadcast any error made by a player on a routine play is described by the talking head as "a really tough play" and I can hear the pain in Keith Moreland's voice (on regional broadcasts) as he tries to say something positive about ugly swings at the plate.  So lets call it what it is - cheap entertainment that isn't good baseball.  I agree with catchmeifyoucan. 

catchmeifucan posted:

First I will say that the same thing is wrong with the LLWS as travel baseball.  Having kids who can be as much as a year older than other kids, at the age of 12 or 13, is just not right.  Kids can grow as much as a foot and gain 50 lbs in that time span.  But more importantly, some have developed muscles and some haven't.  Eliminating anyone who is older the 12 as of the end of LL season would fix the problem, but the games would probably be very boring so LL is never going to do that.  We watch for the side show. 

I remember watching the LLWS when I was 12 or 13 and thinking that these teams weren't very good (except maybe Taiwan).  Sure they had one or two really big kids who if they pitch once a week will dominate other teams.  But overall, back then I was unimpressed.  I am ashamed to say I watched to reinforce my belief that the LL WS was a joke.  

 

What we maybe fail to realize, I think, is that they are not watched for being good at baseball. They are watched for being a side show. For being something that most people think is kind of a joke. Where one or two big players can dominate, win games and become heroes for a summer and then crawl back into the world of competitive baseball where they aren't standouts because the competition is just better and they can't do things that are absent form their game like hit good curve balls, run the bases, or play OF because the fence  is 400 feet rather than 200 feet.     

I am still ashamed to say I watch to reinforce my belief that the LLWS is a joke, and I think many other people do as well.  

I watched a regional game last weekend and thought the caliber of play for kids of that age seemed pretty good.  A couple of nice defensive plays and decent pitching.  Didn't seem to be "joke" territory to me -- although I am only a casual observer and my son is now almost 18 (so maybe I've forgotten what the level of play is for 12-13).  The rules and size of the field seem a bit silly - but again I have no knowledge of LLWS history/rules/etc. -- I just watch a few innings every year lol.

I believe it is still an attempt at a pure representation of talent in a local city.  The problem is the guys who have intentionally formed a team to get to Williamsport by manipulating the process. They are in an area that does not have LL so they form a league and restrict who can play.  They play the minimum games and win.  LL is a recreation league.  My problem also is when they talk about these being the best kids in the nation.  The best teams in the nation would destroy these teams and hit dingers all day long out of those parks.  Plus they would be astounded by the speed the best pitchers in the nation are throwing.  As long as we understand that it is a great opportunity for recreational players it is good.  But it has been blown out of proportion. 

Gerrymandering

PitchingFan posted:

I believe it is still an attempt at a pure representation of talent in a local city.  The problem is the guys who have intentionally formed a team to get to Williamsport by manipulating the process. They are in an area that does not have LL so they form a league and restrict who can play.  They play the minimum games and win.  LL is a recreation league.  My problem also is when they talk about these being the best kids in the nation.  The best teams in the nation would destroy these teams and hit dingers all day long out of those parks.  Plus they would be astounded by the speed the best pitchers in the nation are throwing.  As long as we understand that it is a great opportunity for recreational players it is good.  But it has been blown out of proportion. 

You can’t compare a team of players restricted to a specific area and a travel team that can fly players in from other states. 

Where a kid plays as a preteen is not going to determine his baseball future. Where we lived in the Mid Atlantic area thirteen years later the talented 12yos are still playing LL and travel. In New England, while its acknowledged travel is better ball LL all stats is still more important. 

When my son was twelve he had more walks than at bats during the regular season. Coaches/friends joked before the season they weren’t going to pitch to him and followed through on it. The cutoff date changed as he was turning thirteen. With his late spring birthday he could have been a baseball twelve again. He passed. Had he not I would have encouraged him to pass. 

What really lowered the quality of LL play is pitch counts. A lot of kids who can’t pitch are now pitching. But as preteens, who cares. And it protects the kid’s arms who can pitch.

Most LL’s play it clean. It’s the handful of dirty leagues who make news and leave an impression on the public.

When my son was playing LL teams had to get to the regional championship to be on ESPN. I’m sure it was supposed to be the thrill of victory and agony of defeat. Winner goes to the LLWS. Loser goes home. I’m not sure 12yos need this. But the LL kids I know who played in ESPN thought it was cool win or lose.

I moved to New England when my son (youngest) headed for college. NESN was already broadcasting the New England regional games. 

With all the demand for sports content now (FS1, FS2, ESPN+, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter) it was inevitable all LL regional level games would end up on TV. Next will be state championships.

Shoveit4Ks posted:

Gerrymandering

It happens in high school sports too. A kid goes to live with his uncle on the other side of the district street boundary. Dad rents and apartment in the district and the kid doesn’t get caught. 

Our rival high school participated in a “save the inner city kid” program. They didn’t seem to be saving many chess kings and debate masters. They sure saved a lot of future D1 athletes.

that Taney team from Philly a few years ago, that was garbage from the get go and everyone knew. Add a talented girl to story and a bunch of minority kids and you can do anything you please.

Full disclosure she is a class act and the team was from everything anyone has heard is a real good bunch of kids...but was still a loophole team from a dormant charter.

RJM posted:

PitchingFan posted:

I believe it is still an attempt at a pure representation of talent in a local city.  The problem is the guys who have intentionally formed a team to get to Williamsport by manipulating the process. They are in an area that does not have LL so they form a league and restrict who can play.  They play the minimum games and win.  LL is a recreation league.  My problem also is when they talk about these being the best kids in the nation.  The best teams in the nation would destroy these teams and hit dingers all day long out of those parks.  Plus they would be astounded by the speed the best pitchers in the nation are throwing.  As long as we understand that it is a great opportunity for recreational players it is good.  But it has been blown out of proportion. 

You can’t compare a team of players restricted to a specific area and a travel team that can fly players in from other states. 

 

The emphasized above says it all. It's the parents and our competitive nature that takes this all to the re-donk-ulous level.

My son played LL through Majors (12U) while balancing his travel baseball at the same time. He enjoyed playing on a team with his friends from school and the friendly competitiveness that came with pitching against your best friend. I can still see the smirks on each of their faces as they battled each other and we all laughed about it after those games. Then there were the games in which he played against kids he wasn't terribly fond of, had that chip on his shoulder and wanted to put them in their place.

Comparatively the quality of play was of course worse at the LL than in travel baseball. many kids played LL because either their parents didn't want to put them into a travel ball environment where it was more competitive, or they simply were awful. But there were some players who are currently committed and or playing for major college powerhouses who played in our league or neighboring leagues. It was good baseball once we got to all stars if you take the artificiality of 60 foot base paths, 46 foot mound distance, 200-225' fences, and those stupid 1.15 bpf bats that were hot as hell. Son now plays with a few of those neighboring LL studs on his travel team and they all laugh about those games, how us parents made them out to be so important and cheered so hard for those guys. Our families had a lot of good times with those rivalries...and so did the kids.

60ft bases is really looking like a joke.  some of these kids are as tall or taller than I am.  

Take it for what it's worth - entertainment during the dog days of summer in the MLB season also known as the point in the season where more than 1/2 the teams are no longer really in contention because (generally) large market teams have outspent their rivals to gain an advantage...  Perhaps similar to LL's that want to "get there" - even the Marlins proved at one point you can buy a championship.

old_school posted:

that Taney team from Philly a few years ago, that was garbage from the get go and everyone knew. Add a talented girl to story and a bunch of minority kids and you can do anything you please.

Full disclosure she is a class act and the team was from everything anyone has heard is a real good bunch of kids...but was still a loophole team from a dormant charter.

There wasn’t a LL program in the city. The travel team was all kids from the city. They saw what they had relative to LL. The received a charter covering a population of 1.5M. Their entire travel team fell within the boundaries.  The norm is 20,000.

The ESPN announcers made a big deal it was only their second year in LL. It didn’t matter. They had been together as a travel team since the kids were eight. 

12 is just too young, and here's why I believe that:

When I was 10 our 12-year old team won the US championship before losing in the final game to Taiwan in Williamsport.  They were nearly deified in my hometown, which wasn't all that big at the time.  

When I was 12, I made the team.  Our team was loaded - four kids who went on to play ball in Power 5 conferences (one an All-American), a CFB player and another guy who played 14 years in the Association.  I was none of those guys.  I was the spot starter and reliever who struck out or walked or hit everyone I faced.  I knew that our town - even our local media - expected us to go very far because we seemed better than the previous group who were US champs.  We were a regional news story as we breezed through the first rounds.

Got to the Norcal final when our future AA broke his leg and I had to take the ball in an elimination game.   As I recall it went walk, hit batsman, error (by me), walk, home run, pulled and sent to play right, error on me in right, meltdown....and scene.  

I cannot tell you how much I felt I had let my entire community down.  It's a silly notion to adult me, and a horrifying thought to father me, but it made perfect sense to 12-year old me.  That's why I think the hype around the LLWS is so damaging.  12 was too young for me.

OskiSD posted:

12 is just too young, and here's why I believe that:

When I was 10 our 12-year old team won the US championship before losing in the final game to Taiwan in Williamsport.  They were nearly deified in my hometown, which wasn't all that big at the time.  

When I was 12, I made the team.  Our team was loaded - four kids who went on to play ball in Power 5 conferences (one an All-American), a CFB player and another guy who played 14 years in the Association.  I was none of those guys.  I was the spot starter and reliever who struck out or walked or hit everyone I faced.  I knew that our town - even our local media - expected us to go very far because we seemed better than the previous group who were US champs.  We were a regional news story as we breezed through the first rounds.

Got to the Norcal final when our future AA broke his leg and I had to take the ball in an elimination game.   As I recall it went walk, hit batsman, error (by me), walk, home run, pulled and sent to play right, error on me in right, meltdown....and scene.  

I cannot tell you how much I felt I had let my entire community down.  It's a silly notion to adult me, and a horrifying thought to father me, but it made perfect sense to 12-year old me.  That's why I think the hype around the LLWS is so damaging.  12 was too young for me.

 

So how long were you in therapy? 

CTbballDad posted:

old_school posted:

yea I agree...but I watch them. I actually enjoy them. I also watch NCAA softball all spring long, NCAA baseball, I will watch the legion WS coming shortly, I have been known to attend legion games at the state regional level even while my sons were playing the travel circuit instead of legion.

I am a baseball guy but I get tired of the MLB - I get tired of modern baseball the way it is played. I actually think the MLB has huge problem because if you start to loose guys like me you have a MAJOR problem.

Demographic - 50ish, have disposable income, every male member of my family for 3 generations have played, coached and traveled to play. Vacations were almost always taken in August because skipping a week of football is fine but we never missed a baseball weekend.

Still love the MLB stretch run and playoffs...October is awesome.

 

Personally, I find the Spring Softball and Baseball CWS weeks the best stretch of sports there is.  It used to be March Madness, but they've over-hyped over the past years.  It's gotten to the point I actually believe they setup the brackets to try to conjur up upsets, etc.  But, conspiracy theories aside, I'm trusting Softball/Baseball CWS won't get there.

They will if the money ever gets big enough.  I think it is a safe bet that neither will ever get that big if in fact ESPN's heyday is already behind it - which I bet it is. 

So to me that means there will be no pressure to goose the formats or where the tournaments are held.  Omaha and OKC are a nice midwestern feel for semi pro ball that still has a big dash of boolah boolah in it.

RJM posted:

catchmeifucan posted:

First I will say that the same thing is wrong with the LLWS as travel baseball.  Having kids who can be as much as a year older than other kids, at the age of 12 or 13, is just not right.  Kids can grow as much as a foot and gain 50 lbs in that time span.  But more importantly, some have developed muscles and some haven't.  Eliminating anyone who is older the 12 as of the end of LL season would fix the problem, but the games would probably be very boring so LL is never going to do that.  We watch for the side show. 

I remember watching the LLWS when I was 12 or 13 and thinking that these teams weren't very good (except maybe Taiwan).  Sure they had one or two really big kids who if they pitch once a week will dominate other teams.  But overall, back then I was unimpressed.  I am ashamed to say I watched to reinforce my belief that the LL WS was a joke.  

 

What we maybe fail to realize, I think, is that they are not watched for being good at baseball. They are watched for being a side show. For being something that most people think is kind of a joke. Where one or two big players can dominate, win games and become heroes for a summer and then crawl back into the world of competitive baseball where they aren't standouts because the competition is just better and they can't do things that are absent form their game like hit good curve balls, run the bases, or play OF because the fence  is 400 feet rather than 200 feet.     

I am still ashamed to say I watch to reinforce my belief that the LLWS is a joke, and I think many other people do as well.  

LL didn’t have 13yos until 2006 and the games were exciting. They’re returning to no 13yos next year. The cutoff date returns to 7/31. No one will be thirteen during the season. Some will turn thirteen by the LLWS. But no one will be thirteen 13yo 3.5 months at the LLWS anymore.

LL is kids playing baseball. There’s nothing wrong with that. The LLWS has always been a piece of Americana. There was a time where every kid played baseball.

What draws the channel surfing  casual baseball fan is the regionalism of the LLWS. A person can be drawn to rooting for a region. When a casual fan channel surfs past a travel game between the Bombers and the Aces he can’t relate.

Most of the stars in the LLWS are also travel standouts. The team we lost to in our state that went on to the LLWS when my son was that age had nine of eleven players go on to college baseball. Three played D1. One led a P5 in hitting one season. When they were all seniors in high school they won the large high school state championship. 

"Most of the stars in the LLWS are also travel standouts. The team we lost to in our state that went on to the LLWS when my son was that age had nine of eleven players go on to college baseball. Three played D1. One led a P5 in hitting one season. When they were all seniors in high school they won the large high school state championship. "

9 of 11 from a little league all star team, form the same town (or thereabouts) who I presume went to the same HS (because you say they won a state championship) went on to play college baseball?  So 9 of 11 kids from essentially the same 10 or so square miles?  That is either a REALLY amazing statistic, or an exaggeration.     I trust you on this but it's not the norm. How many travel kids at 12 or 13 remain that good through HS?  For 3 of the past 4 years my son has been on the best team in our state and team that ended up bein ranked top 5 either in USSSA or PG (from 10-13u) and I doubt that will be the case for even those teams (and the kids were from all over our state).  Many of the kids are fading or getting caught up in the timing of puberty or the natural progression of their own genetics.   Maybe that own in Ohio had power outage exactly nine months before May 1 of the year those kids turned 13 LOL.  Whatever the reason, many of these kids are not star travel ball players and most of them don't train like them. Sure, some of the communities are looking up major rosters and recruiting kids who don't play LL to join these teams but most LLs are run buy guys with kids that play LL and they aren't going to put together at team like that for anyone but their own kids. 

The kids stayed together as a travel team in 13u and 14u. 5hey didn’t win any tournaments. But they were very competitive. By 16u some had to get into exposure programs.

Ironically the star pitcher didn’t get better after 14u. He physically peaked at twelve. But a kid from a nearby district became the star high school pitcher. He’s now in AA. The other LL pitcher also pitched in D1. First, short, third and center played D1. One led the ACC in hitting one year.

The LL that won states the year before eventually had three players drafted. When the players who alternate as pitcher and catcher are future pro prospects the team is going to be good. But they all attended different high schools. Two attended privates.

The age cutoff is not going back to 7/31 next year. It is going to 8/31, so there will be no 13 year olds, even in the LLWS, starting next year.

Also, RJM's stats don't seem amazing to me. He said 3 went on to play D1 . . . from the large school state championship HS team (in a large state), that seems normal. Low, even.

The Huntington Beach LL team -- from about 4 square miles -- that won the LLWS in 2011 had a 2017 first-round draft pick (Nick Pratto), a 2017 second-round draft pick (Hagen Danner), and at least two other current D1 players (Braydon Salzman -- LMU, and Trevor Windisch -- Oregon). 

2019Dad posted:

The age cutoff is not going back to 7/31 next year. It is going to 8/31, so there will be no 13 year olds, even in the LLWS, starting next year.

Also, RJM's stats don't seem amazing to me. He said 3 went on to play D1 . . . from the large school state championship HS team (in a large state), that seems normal. Low, even.

The Huntington Beach LL team -- from about 4 square miles -- that won the LLWS in 2011 had a 2017 first-round draft pick (Nick Pratto), a 2017 second-round draft pick (Hagen Danner), and at least two other current D1 players (Braydon Salzman -- LMU, and Trevor Windisch -- Oregon). 

That's a damn densely populated 4 square miles, though.

My son's LL All Star team has one D1 commit and that is it so far. Will be interesting to see how this progresses by next summer, they were a pretty good team and I hope more of the boys get their chance as well. Team that was our Achilles Heel has exactly (1) D1 commit, and they lost in the regional championship (so close, but so far away). That team has a lot of guys who should commit between now and next summer.

I catch an inning or two while I am cooking dinner.  I like watching it, good kid baseball, kids having fun.  Brings back a lot of memories, at least the time-filtered kind where you remember the fun part of little league.  And laugh at "so and so" who "moved" three times in three years trying to guess which little league was going to Williamsport and other transgressions.

Then this thread bumps back up to the top.

catchmeifucan posted:

 

9 of 11 from a little league all star team, form the same town (or thereabouts) who I presume went to the same HS (because you say they won a state championship) went on to play college baseball?  So 9 of 11 kids from essentially the same 10 or so square miles?  That is either a REALLY amazing statistic, or an exaggeration.     I trust you on this but it's not the norm. How many travel kids at 12 or 13 remain that good through HS?  For 3 of the past 4 years my son has been on the best team in our state and team that ended up bein ranked top 5 either in USSSA or PG (from 10-13u) and I doubt that will be the case for even those teams (and the kids were from all over our state).  Many of the kids are fading or getting caught up in the timing of puberty or the natural progression of their own genetics.   Maybe that own in Ohio had power outage exactly nine months before May 1 of the year those kids turned 13 LOL.  Whatever the reason, many of these kids are not star travel ball players and most of them don't train like them. Sure, some of the communities are looking up major rosters and recruiting kids who don't play LL to join these teams but most LLs are run buy guys with kids that play LL and they aren't going to put together at team like that for anyone but their own kids. 

Don't know if this happens in baseball, but our newly hired football coach went to our principal and suggested we use school funds to build dorms for football transfers.  He said he'd get the kids from other states and even other countries and that this is what the top football teams around the country do.  He was promptly let go on the spot.  

2019Dad posted:

The age cutoff is not going back to 7/31 next year. It is going to 8/31, so there will be no 13 year olds, even in the LLWS, starting next year.

Also, RJM's stats don't seem amazing to me. He said 3 went on to play D1 . . . from the large school state championship HS team (in a large state), that seems normal. Low, even.

The Huntington Beach LL team -- from about 4 square miles -- that won the LLWS in 2011 had a 2017 first-round draft pick (Nick Pratto), a 2017 second-round draft pick (Hagen Danner), and at least two other current D1 players (Braydon Salzman -- LMU, and Trevor Windisch -- Oregon). 

It was five D1 from the LL and six from the high school. The previous year LL state champion had three drafted. One D1, a D2 and one high pick out of high school.

My son’s team had five D1’s and eight total college players from when he was eleven. His next year they had great athletes who could out muscle and out run the small field. But only five played high school baseball/three college. The rest went on to excel in other sports. Several played college in those sports.

And on to the 11th with the most exciting baseball game televised today. 

Go44dad posted:

And on to the 11th with the most exciting baseball game televised today. 

And ALOHA means goodbye.......Nice bat flip!

I tell myself I'm not going to watch, then I turn on the TV at the end of a game and see a team stage a comeback walk-off win.  I turn off the TV, turn it on again hours later and they're playing a scoreless game in the 9th that ends with a walk-off HR.

I don't see how I can resist watching those two teams play each other tomorrow.

Given the height of the pitcher and batter tonight  the distance between the rubber and home plate looks like 20 feet  

All I know is every year my 3 boys, wife and I start out by saying we won’t watch much. Then, like most other shows that we act indifferently to at first, we get hooked and have a blast watching. Some incredible finishes so far and I think ESPN/MLB doing nice job. Can always find something wrong but still more positives in my opinion. The MI game today and now this TX-GA game tonight have been exciting and fun as each family member now has a favorite. If this is a problem, it’s a good one in my family book. 

TX-GA game. Speechless. How can you not love watching these boys give their all?Was worried about the GA closer after he gave up that game winning homerun to Hawaii in the 11th inning. He came back to close this game and get the game winning sac fly. A bunch of these kids are on my son's travel team. So stinking proud of them. 

atlnon posted:

TX-GA game. Speechless. How can you not love watching these boys give their all?Was worried about the GA closer after he gave up that game winning homerun to Hawaii in the 11th inning. He came back to close this game and get the game winning sac fly. A bunch of these kids are on my son's travel team. So stinking proud of them. 

Great game.  My older daughter was so annoyed we were watching LL.  By the end of the game she was cheering and had long turned off the Netflix show she was watching on her phone.

Wow, unbelievable finish last night again.  My son played on a top level travel team at that age....and yes, they had fun and loved winning, but I can't imagine what it would be like to win  a game like that with your friends from your hometown playing with you....and so many hometown fans cheering you on.  I've said it before....if you've never been to Williamsport, you owe it to yourself to make the trip, even if it's only for a couple days.  Unbelievable atmosphere.

Agree with all the comments above. It must really be an exciting atmosphere.  

I too watch and enjoy some of the games. I Just wished the coaching staff would do a better job of teaching the boys proper  mechanics, throwing/hitting.   My son played on that size fields when he was 8-9. At 10 he moved into the 50/70 fields and at 13 he played on the regulation sized field.

I tried to watch and the umpiring drove me up the wall.  They were calling strikes 12 inches off the plate.  No way you can hit some of the pitches they are calling strikes.  Why don't they just call the strike zone like it is supposed to be called?

PitchingFan posted:

I tried to watch and the umpiring drove me up the wall.  They were calling strikes 12 inches off the plate.  No way you can hit some of the pitches they are calling strikes.  Why don't they just call the strike zone like it is supposed to be called?

Some of it has been worse than others....but I do agree that when the catcher blatantly sets up a foot outside that just hitting the glove isn't close to a strike.   Maybe LL needs to do away with volunteer umps....at least behind the plate to help that situation...and bring in guys that they know can call a consistent strike zone

"The problem isn't the Little League World Series, it's that we watch it......."

Absolutely correct RJM.   I have not watched one pitch of the LLWS and I've not had a problem with it at all!

I caught most of the TX-GA game and was great.  Being from Oklahoma it's tough to feel bad for TX but the RF umpire cost them that game...well, and the bad decision to go to 3B on a slow come-backer to the mound.  How many umps do they have on the field?  Why did the ump not get out of the stinking way.  The RF had to take at least 5 steps to get around the umpire and I just think that there would have been a play at the plate had he not been in the way.  I could see the look of disgust on coaches face as he rounded his players up to encourage them. 

First season I've not watched ONE pitch in the LLWS.  

Buckeye 2015 posted:

PitchingFan posted:

I tried to watch and the umpiring drove me up the wall.  They were calling strikes 12 inches off the plate.  No way you can hit some of the pitches they are calling strikes.  Why don't they just call the strike zone like it is supposed to be called?

Some of it has been worse than others....but I do agree that when the catcher blatantly sets up a foot outside that just hitting the glove isn't close to a strike.   Maybe LL needs to do away with volunteer umps....at least behind the plate to help that situation...and bring in guys that they know can call a consistent strike zone

Umpires are not selected on merit. It’s a tenure and good ole boy network decision. A LL lifer from our league has done every level of the tournament including Williamsport. He’s a horrible umpire.

When my son was playing LL this umpire called him out for not sliding at home when there wasn’t a throw on a wild pitch. The pitcher ran in front of him. They collided. You’re out! 

I can’t imagine how this guy could handle the speed and decision making of some of the plays at regionals and the LLWS. 

fenwaysouth posted:

"The problem isn't the Little League World Series, it's that we watch it......."

Absolutely correct RJM.   I have not watched one pitch of the LLWS and I've not had a problem with it at all!

If I want to watch boring baseball with too many strikeouts I’ll watch MLB. 

OB1 posted:

I caught most of the TX-GA game and was great.  Being from Oklahoma it's tough to feel bad for TX but the RF umpire cost them that game...well, and the bad decision to go to 3B on a slow come-backer to the mound.  How many umps do they have on the field?  Why did the ump not get out of the stinking way.  The RF had to take at least 5 steps to get around the umpire and I just think that there would have been a play at the plate had he not been in the way.  I could see the look of disgust on coaches face as he rounded his players up to encourage them. 

I watched the replay again focusing on the RF umpire.  I saw him trying to get out of the way by taking 3 or 4 steps to the foul line not realizing that the RF also was going that way to get a clear shot towards home plate.  I don't know what the protocol is for this situation, but the ump was trying to get out of the way and unfortunately got himself more in the way.  I do think runner would still have been safe, but it would have been a closer play.

PitchingFan posted:

I tried to watch and the umpiring drove me up the wall.  They were calling strikes 12 inches off the plate.  No way you can hit some of the pitches they are calling strikes.  Why don't they just call the strike zone like it is supposed to be called?

I've seen some of maybe 4-5 LLWS games, and I, for once, was pleased to see the infamous "LLWS strike zone" was not nearly as much of an issue as it usually is. Looks like I spoke too soon.

The Mexico-Canada game I thought the Mexican pitcher was going to pass-out when he was not getting pitches 6" off the plate (but he still most 3-4").  I've seen some "pretty-looking"
pitches called strikes up to a foot off the plate. I think the Japanese teams capitalize the most and start with somewhat outside pitches and keep expanding, deliberately, until pitches are ludicrously unhittable, maybe "unfoul-able". Even the announcers, who by rule are rah-rah LL and volunteer umpires, start chirping a bit.

But again, it seemed noticeably better this year.

atlnon posted:

OB1 posted:

I caught most of the TX-GA game and was great.  Being from Oklahoma it's tough to feel bad for TX but the RF umpire cost them that game...well, and the bad decision to go to 3B on a slow come-backer to the mound.  How many umps do they have on the field?  Why did the ump not get out of the stinking way.  The RF had to take at least 5 steps to get around the umpire and I just think that there would have been a play at the plate had he not been in the way.  I could see the look of disgust on coaches face as he rounded his players up to encourage them. 

I watched the replay again focusing on the RF umpire.  I saw him trying to get out of the way by taking 3 or 4 steps to the foul line not realizing that the RF also was going that way to get a clear shot towards home plate.  I don't know what the protocol is for this situation, but the ump was trying to get out of the way and unfortunately got himself more in the way.  I do think runner would still have been safe, but it would have been a closer play.

I don't think in a 220 ft field "outfield" umpires are needed.  He would have had a chance at the runner, but by no means a certain out.

PitchingFan posted:

I tried to watch and the umpiring drove me up the wall.  They were calling strikes 12 inches off the plate.  No way you can hit some of the pitches they are calling strikes.  Why don't they just call the strike zone like it is supposed to be called?

Since we've stepped foot on the baseball field that's been the case. Draw a line through the opposite side batters box and anything plate side of that can be and will be called a strike.  Super NIT, Jupiter, FT Mayers, every TB tournament, HS....

Below college level most pitchers don't have command of the offspeed or the velo on the FB to call the strike zone. Games would take to long. You got 100+ teams and four days to get a tournament in. You have a HS game on a school night.

You think it's frustrating to watch on TV? Try having a kid that college/pro scouts are there to see and the ump is ringing him up on pitches well off the plate and below the knees. It is what it is.  

I would disagree with the premise that it is everywhere.  I know we come from two different sides of the plate since my son is LHP and hits and yours is a hitter but I don't think PG at the big tournaments stretches it very little except a rare umpire who has no clue.  I thought they did a good job and every now and then got too tight with pitchers who deserved/earned the right to have it stretched a little.  Our high school umpires here were overly tight to the point that they made a good umpire look wide.  I think you call it legit plate wise at the bottom of the knees and then it needs to expand to a ball off and inside at the waist and then back to plate wide at numbers.  When I umpired all the time, it was amazing the umpires who said they didn't care what the rules said, they were calling their strike zone.

It’s fun to watch although it’s not real baseball. 

Shoveit4Ks posted:

It’s fun to watch although it’s not real baseball. 

It’s not real baseball. Baseball on a 50/70 field isn’t real baseball either. It’s kids playing baseball. Even kids who play 50/70 ball want to play in the LLWS. Given everyone used to play LL the LLWS is still a piece of Americana.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the LLWS popularity after two generations of a lot of kids didn’t play baseball and have the attention span of a gnat. It’s a concern of MLB. The average age of a regular MLB tv viewer is 55.

Just don't get  some of the negative perspective on LL Baseball.  The baseball world would be a better place if everyone still played LL.  9-12 year olds should play ball within their communities with their friends.  They can still play on tournament teams, play a combined total of approx. 40 games each spring/summer, a few more if playing all-stars.  That is more than enough baseball for a 9-12 year old to develop significant baseball skills if that is their passion.  There will be plenty of time/opportunity after that to submerse themselves in the athletically and competitively superior "travel" baseball world.  There will be bad coaches and over zealous parents in both places but they are truly the minority, the overwhelming majority of the coaches and parents in both places are doing things the right way.  Very little gets sorted out in the athletic world before high school anyway.  Enjoy your commumity, enjoy the time with friends/classmates, enjoy playing baseball as long as you can....the improve or perish part is coming soon enough.....just doesn't have to be as soon as some think....

The thing people don't understand is that these same kids play travel ball all summer....some of them on the top name travel teams we've all heard of for years.   A few years ago, my son heard one of the town names, forget which one and knew it was in the area of one of the top level travel teams.  He went on USSSA site and found 4 kids from that travel team on the LL team.  Sure, the field is small, but some of the plays being made (3rd baseman from Michigan) would be great plays on a 50-70 or 54-80 field too.  I would really like to see LL go to lead offs and steals, but it would be a huge detriment to the local leagues....as most kids playing LL aren't nearly the level of players you're seeing during the LLWS.   I started a new Little League when my son was 11.  I was the President of the league.  We had a hard time picking 13 "All-Stars" for the 3 age groups that had a district tournament out of a league with approximately 120 kids.  The first 8-9 on each team were easy...but by the time we got to 13 we were looking for kids who could catch a fly ball and hopefully at least make contact if they had to bat. 

I think the dream of the LLWS is a key pole holding up LL in general, and at least for 11-12 YOs. I knew of many top pre-teens who played in the spring for the chance for a deep run in All-Stars. My son played travel ball at 11 (and I made it happen) simply because he liked playing with and against talented baseball players. That's it.

RJM posted:

Shoveit4Ks posted:

It’s fun to watch although it’s not real baseball. 

It’s not real baseball. Baseball on a 50/70 field isn’t real baseball either. It’s kids playing baseball. Even kids who play 50/70 ball want to play in the LLWS. Given everyone used to play LL the LLWS is still a piece of Americana.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the LLWS popularity after two generations of a lot of kids didn’t play baseball and have the attention span of a gnat. It’s a concern of MLB. The average age of a regular MLB tv viewer is 55.

Then you may as well call Tee Ball, baseball. Regardless of dimensions, holding runners with leads while pitching from the stretch and stealing are all in real baseball. This is a different animal.

Shoveit4Ks posted:

RJM posted:

Shoveit4Ks posted:

It’s fun to watch although it’s not real baseball. 

It’s not real baseball. Baseball on a 50/70 field isn’t real baseball either. It’s kids playing baseball. Even kids who play 50/70 ball want to play in the LLWS. Given everyone used to play LL the LLWS is still a piece of Americana.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the LLWS popularity after two generations of a lot of kids didn’t play baseball and have the attention span of a gnat. It’s a concern of MLB. The average age of a regular MLB tv viewer is 55.

Then you may as well call Tee Ball, baseball. Regardless of dimensions, holding runners with leads while pitching from the stretch and stealing are all in real baseball. This is a different animal.

Until hitting the 60/90 field everything before it is an age appropriate compromise for the purpose of kids enjoying the game and learning the basics..

When you see the LLWS on tv it’s not the norm. They’re the best of the survivors of several tournaments. The average 12yo is 4’10”. The average 13yo is 5’3”. Everybody makes a team. It works for most everyone. Some kids are even overwhelmed on the 46/60 field. 

No one is making the high school team off their smaller field performance. In the long run the field and rules in preteen ball are irrelevant.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

The thing people don't understand is that these same kids play travel ball all summer....some of them on the top name travel teams we've all heard of for years.   ...

This is an important point.  My son's LL had travel teams at each age from 9-12 that played a handful of weekend tournaments during the spring LL season and the fall.  The rosters of those teams generally were almost identical to the all-star teams.  It was a good system--the ability to experience both LL and some travel ball kept a lot of good players in the league, and kids got to see some of both LL and travel ball.

The thing I don't like is that many kids (at least in my state) ONLY play LL during their 12 year-old year, and then only come to about half the regular season games.  There was a LL rule that required all-star players to have played about 50% of regular season games unless injured--so far as I know, that is still the case.  A lot of leagues appear to be recruiting kids to play on their 12s all-star teams by promising them a shot at Williamsport if they will just show up for the bare minimum number of LL games as 12 yr olds while still playing a full travel schedule.

IMO, the problem with Williamsport is that it is supposed to be a competition between real LL teams, but because of the hype adults can't resist cheating.  I'm not a fan of the idea of travel teams that fly kids in from around the country to play together on weekends.  But those teams aren't breaking any rules, and if they pound my kid's team at a PG event, then that's just how it goes.  The LLWS is supposed to be something different.  I have watched a couple of LLWS games at Williamsport.  It's an exciting atmosphere and it would have been really cool if my son could have played there.  But I choose not to watch on TV--it just seems overblown to see it on ESPN.  Clearly a lot of folks feel differently about that, which is perfectly OK with me. 

I don't get the disdain some here have for for LL.  My son had a great experience, and I coached his teams and others for years.  Part of the LL experience is learning to be teammates with kids of wiiiiiiiiidely varying abilities--you know, like adults have to do at work or in other aspects of life.  Some of the kids I coached or watched went on to D1 baseball.  Some played other sports in HS or college.  And some just weren't good athletes--but they had fun (most of them, anyhow), got some exercise, learned some life lessons...  I loved high-fiving the kid who had struck out every AB for his first 13 games of the season, but who was over the moon because he reached first on a squib grounder in the last regular season game of the year.  Baseball isn't just about trying to maximize your shot at making MLB, especially for kids who are still in elementary school.  

Chico Escuela posted:

Buckeye 2015 posted:

The thing people don't understand is that these same kids play travel ball all summer....some of them on the top name travel teams we've all heard of for years.   ...

This is an important point.  My son's LL had travel teams at each age from 9-12 that played a handful of weekend tournaments during the spring LL season and the fall.  The rosters of those teams generally were almost identical to the all-star teams.  It was a good system--the ability to experience both LL and some travel ball kept a lot of good players in the league, and kids got to see some of both LL and travel ball.

The thing I don't like is that many kids (at least in my state) ONLY play LL during their 12 year-old year, and then only come to about half the regular season games.  There was a LL rule that required all-star players to have played about 50% of regular season games unless injured--so far as I know, that is still the case.  A lot of leagues appear to be recruiting kids to play on their 12s all-star teams by promising them a shot at Williamsport if they will just show up for the bare minimum number of LL games as 12 yr olds while still playing a full travel schedule.

IMO, the problem with Williamsport is that it is supposed to be a competition between real LL teams, but because of the hype adults can't resist cheating.  I'm not a fan of the idea of travel teams that fly kids in from around the country to play together on weekends.  But those teams aren't breaking any rules, and if they pound my kid's team at a PG event, then that's just how it goes.  The LLWS is supposed to be something different.  I have watched a couple of LLWS games at Williamsport.  It's an exciting atmosphere and it would have been really cool if my son could have played there.  But I choose not to watch on TV--it just seems overblown to see it on ESPN.  Clearly a lot of folks feel differently about that, which is perfectly OK with me. 

I don't get the disdain some here have for for LL.  My son had a great experience, and I coached his teams and others for years.  Part of the LL experience is learning to be teammates with kids of wiiiiiiiiidely varying abilities--you know, like adults have to do at work or in other aspects of life.  Some of the kids I coached or watched went on to D1 baseball.  Some played other sports in HS or college.  And some just weren't good athletes--but they had fun (most of them, anyhow), got some exercise, learned some life lessons...  I loved high-fiving the kid who had struck out every AB for his first 13 games of the season, but who was over the moon because he reached first on a squib grounder in the last regular season game of the year.  Baseball isn't just about trying to maximize your shot at making MLB, especially for kids who are still in elementary school.  

I get that....but keep in mind, you still need to be from the LL District to play on the all star team.   My son played both travel and LL....he didn't make it to every game...but he made more than the required number.  If you took only the "full-time" LL kids and no part-timers who also played travel, you'd have a much different LLWS.  Heck, the kid from NY yesterday blew 3 easy fly balls to left in one inning....and he's on a team at the LLWS.  It was hard to watch....but would be even worse if you had 2 or 3 kids on a team doing that....like you see when you go to your local LL games.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

Buckeye 2015 posted:

The thing people don't understand is that these same kids play travel ball all summer....some of them on the top name travel teams we've all heard of for years.   ...

This is an important point.  My son's LL had travel teams at each age from 9-12 that played a handful of weekend tournaments during the spring LL season and the fall.  The rosters of those teams generally were almost identical to the all-star teams.  It was a good system--the ability to experience both LL and some travel ball kept a lot of good players in the league, and kids got to see some of both LL and travel ball.

The thing I don't like is that many kids (at least in my state) ONLY play LL during their 12 year-old year, and then only come to about half the regular season games.  There was a LL rule that required all-star players to have played about 50% of regular season games unless injured--so far as I know, that is still the case.  A lot of leagues appear to be recruiting kids to play on their 12s all-star teams by promising them a shot at Williamsport if they will just show up for the bare minimum number of LL games as 12 yr olds while still playing a full travel schedule.

IMO, the problem with Williamsport is that it is supposed to be a competition between real LL teams, but because of the hype adults can't resist cheating.  I'm not a fan of the idea of travel teams that fly kids in from around the country to play together on weekends.  But those teams aren't breaking any rules, and if they pound my kid's team at a PG event, then that's just how it goes.  The LLWS is supposed to be something different.  I have watched a couple of LLWS games at Williamsport.  It's an exciting atmosphere and it would have been really cool if my son could have played there.  But I choose not to watch on TV--it just seems overblown to see it on ESPN.  Clearly a lot of folks feel differently about that, which is perfectly OK with me. 

I don't get the disdain some here have for for LL.  My son had a great experience, and I coached his teams and others for years.  Part of the LL experience is learning to be teammates with kids of wiiiiiiiiidely varying abilities--you know, like adults have to do at work or in other aspects of life.  Some of the kids I coached or watched went on to D1 baseball.  Some played other sports in HS or college.  And some just weren't good athletes--but they had fun (most of them, anyhow), got some exercise, learned some life lessons...  I loved high-fiving the kid who had struck out every AB for his first 13 games of the season, but who was over the moon because he reached first on a squib grounder in the last regular season game of the year.  Baseball isn't just about trying to maximize your shot at making MLB, especially for kids who are still in elementary school.  

I get that....but keep in mind, you still need to be from the LL District to play on the all star team.   My son played both travel and LL....he didn't make it to every game...but he made more than the required number.  If you took only the "full-time" LL kids and no part-timers who also played travel, you'd have a much different LLWS.  Heck, the kid from NY yesterday blew 3 easy fly balls to left in one inning....and he's on a team at the LLWS.  It was hard to watch....but would be even worse if you had 2 or 3 kids on a team doing that....like you see when you go to your local LL games.

I don't think we disagree.  Not all LLs create teams to give their players the option to play travel ball.  In my area most do, but that began within the last 6 to 8 years. 

My son missed a couple of LL games per season and a few practices because of travel soccer, which ended around the middle of the LL season as I recall.  His coaches weren't thrilled, but they understood he wanted to play both sports.  If his LL hadn't offered a travel baseball option, my son might have played on an outside baseball team and missed more LL games (or dropped LL altogether).  

My point is not that kids shouldn't be able to do both travel and LL, but that I don't like the idea of a kid with no real ties to a league essentially being recruited purely to play as a 12-y.o. all-star.  On the other hand, I think some 12s decide they want a shot at the LLWS and ESPN, so they just choose to play LL for one year.  That's not really what the LLWS is supposed to be about, but I wouldn't try to stop those kids (and maybe as adults they become supporters of LL).

My experience has been that any time you try to create a youth sports league or event designed to give less-than-top-tier talent an opportunity, you end up with kids who (arguably) are "ringers" and ought not to be playing at that level.  I see that issue crop up with kids on the varsity squad making spot starts on JV teams in my son's HS league, for example.  When the only rule is "put together the best team you can at a particular age" like at PG events, then the only potential cheating involves birth certificates, while the LLWS also has to deal with place of residence and participation in LL, among other potential ways to game the rules.   

Chico Escuela posted:

My son missed a couple of LL games per season and a few practices because of travel soccer, which ended around the middle of the LL season as I recall.  His coaches weren't thrilled, but they understood he wanted to play both sports. 

Just to add:  My son's travel soccer coaches were not understanding when he needed to miss soccer games for baseball, even as a 10- or 11-year old.  Ultimately that is a big reason he quit travel soccer (earlier than I would have liked, but I'm glad he chose baseball  .  And that's another plus to LL: it's generally a low-pressure environment.  Kids I coached missed the occasional game for soccer, hockey, swim meets, class field trips...  Some travel coaches would be ok with that, some would not; but at least in my son's LL, no coach would hold those absences against a player.

Chico Escuela posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

My son missed a couple of LL games per season and a few practices because of travel soccer, which ended around the middle of the LL season as I recall.  His coaches weren't thrilled, but they understood he wanted to play both sports. 

Just to add:  My son's travel soccer coaches were not understanding when he needed to miss soccer games for baseball, even as a 10- or 11-year old.  Ultimately that is a big reason he quit travel soccer (earlier than I would have liked, but I'm glad he chose baseball &nbsp.  And that's another plus to LL: it's generally a low-pressure environment.  Kids I coached missed the occasional game for soccer, hockey, swim meets, class field trips...  Some travel coaches would be ok with that, some would not; but at least in my son's LL, no coach would hold those absences against a player.

Chances are my son was a better soccer player than baseball player. He played both in high school. His focus was on baseball. He played travel in the summer and some fall ball. He worked out focused on baseball year round. He did attend an elite goalie camp during the day in the summer.

At U12 and U16 he was approached by very premier programs. The catch was they wanted him to quit all other sports, play soccer year round and not play high school soccer with his friends. At U12 I told them no way before it was a choice for my son. I don’t believe he would have chosen to quit baseball and basketball. At U16 he told them no way. Baseball mattered too much. 

RJM posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

My son missed a couple of LL games per season and a few practices because of travel soccer, which ended around the middle of the LL season as I recall.  His coaches weren't thrilled, but they understood he wanted to play both sports. 

Just to add:  My son's travel soccer coaches were not understanding when he needed to miss soccer games for baseball, even as a 10- or 11-year old.  Ultimately that is a big reason he quit travel soccer (earlier than I would have liked, but I'm glad he chose baseball &nbsp.  And that's another plus to LL: it's generally a low-pressure environment.  Kids I coached missed the occasional game for soccer, hockey, swim meets, class field trips...  Some travel coaches would be ok with that, some would not; but at least in my son's LL, no coach would hold those absences against a player.

Chances are my son was a better soccer player than baseball player. He played both in high school. His focus was on baseball. He played travel in the summer and some fall ball. He worked out focused on baseball year round. He did attend an elite goalie camp during the day in the summer.

At U12 and U16 he was approached by very premier programs. The catch was they wanted him to quit all other sports, play soccer year round and not play high school soccer with his friends. At U12 I told them no way before it was a choice for my son. I don’t believe he would have chosen to quit baseball and basketball. At U16 he told them no way. Baseball mattered too much. 

Sounds familiar...  My daughter's main sport was soccer, so I spent a lot of time in that world.  Both my kids got pressure starting from age 9 to quit other sports and play and train for soccer 12 months a year.  These were competitive programs, but no one had any illusions that their teams were stocked with future Olympians.  A lot of things about youth baseball strike me as over the top, but soccer was far worse (and more expensive) in my experience.  

Soccer is so crazy.  The daughter of a friend of mine is an an elite player who committed to a Pac 12 school over a year ago.  She's already played in 2 international events this year, plus a few around the US.  I can't even imagine how much they spend on travel  for her. And the scary part is that she's got 2 younger sisters!

DIGGUM, we tried with my oldest two sons and it was a disaster.  They threw too hard, they might hit somebody, the swing too hard, they are too competitive, it's not fair having them together on a team, and on and on and on.  It was a joke when you are trying to play against a team that has no one who can throw a strike or if they could it was 50 mph when they were seeing 75 in travel ball.  That is why players leave LL.  I know there are a few competitive leagues where it is worth it but that is not the case in most small towns.  it is a joke.  It has a place but just not in the competitive conversation.  Not mentioning all the local politics that come into play.  The good ole boy system where the guy who knows nothing about baseball other than he watches the Braves has been a coach for 30 years.  And he is the president so he gets the first pick each year.  Again, I know there are a few that do it right but they are the freak not the ordinary. 

I also believe the world has changed and so many of those kids who play only LL all the way until 14 are way behind when it comes to being able to be competitive.  So many of them cannot make a MS or HS team because they do not know how to pick-off or get a lead or swing a bat and the homeruns they hit in LL drop in front of the outfielders in travel ball or MS.  Or like several they are not athletic enough to play on the big field. 

Again, LL has it's place and that is as a recreational event but don't make it out to be a competitive baseball league or that those players in the LL WS are the best 12 or 13 year olds out there.  There are a few but most could not even make a top travel team roster.

Chico Escuela posted:

RJM posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

My son missed a couple of LL games per season and a few practices because of travel soccer, which ended around the middle of the LL season as I recall.  His coaches weren't thrilled, but they understood he wanted to play both sports. 

Just to add:  My son's travel soccer coaches were not understanding when he needed to miss soccer games for baseball, even as a 10- or 11-year old.  Ultimately that is a big reason he quit travel soccer (earlier than I would have liked, but I'm glad he chose baseball &nbsp.  And that's another plus to LL: it's generally a low-pressure environment.  Kids I coached missed the occasional game for soccer, hockey, swim meets, class field trips...  Some travel coaches would be ok with that, some would not; but at least in my son's LL, no coach would hold those absences against a player.

Chances are my son was a better soccer player than baseball player. He played both in high school. His focus was on baseball. He played travel in the summer and some fall ball. He worked out focused on baseball year round. He did attend an elite goalie camp during the day in the summer.

At U12 and U16 he was approached by very premier programs. The catch was they wanted him to quit all other sports, play soccer year round and not play high school soccer with his friends. At U12 I told them no way before it was a choice for my son. I don’t believe he would have chosen to quit baseball and basketball. At U16 he told them no way. Baseball mattered too much. 

Sounds familiar...  My daughter's main sport was soccer, so I spent a lot of time in that world.  Both my kids got pressure starting from age 9 to quit other sports and play and train for soccer 12 months a year.  These were competitive programs, but no one had any illusions that their teams were stocked with future Olympians.  A lot of things about youth baseball strike me as over the top, but soccer was far worse (and more expensive) in my experience.  

One of the U12 offers was from the regional Junior Olympic Development Program. One of my son’s travel teammates did it. His father was a former World Cup player. He quit after the fall. They traveled from New England to Florida every weekend for ten weekends. The dad told me he pulled his son because a preteen also needs to have fun and down time. 

Three kids from my son’s fall travel team missed a year of soccer due to repetitive stress hip injuries before they were fourteen. It was from playing year round. Soccer involves 8-10 miles of running per game. Go play a five game tournament weekend while you’re growing. Also, there’s more hip and shoulder contact than people know. 

RJM posted:Three kids from my son’s fall travel team missed a year of soccer due to repetitive stress hip injuries before they were fourteen. It was from playing year round. Soccer involves 8-10 miles of running per game. Go play a five game tournament weekend while you’re growing. Also, there’s more hip and shoulder contact than people know. 

Concussions.  Almost as many as American football.  Not to mention ACLs.  It's a great game, but I think US youth soccer has some things very wrong.  

PitchingFan posted:

DIGGUM, we tried with my oldest two sons and it was a disaster.  They threw too hard, they might hit somebody, the swing too hard, they are too competitive, it's not fair having them together on a team, and on and on and on.  It was a joke when you are trying to play against a team that has no one who can throw a strike or if they could it was 50 mph when they were seeing 75 in travel ball.  That is why players leave LL.  I know there are a few competitive leagues where it is worth it but that is not the case in most small towns.  it is a joke.  It has a place but just not in the competitive conversation.  Not mentioning all the local politics that come into play.  The good ole boy system where the guy who knows nothing about baseball other than he watches the Braves has been a coach for 30 years.  And he is the president so he gets the first pick each year.  Again, I know there are a few that do it right but they are the freak not the ordinary. 

I also believe the world has changed and so many of those kids who play only LL all the way until 14 are way behind when it comes to being able to be competitive.  So many of them cannot make a MS or HS team because they do not know how to pick-off or get a lead or swing a bat and the homeruns they hit in LL drop in front of the outfielders in travel ball or MS.  Or like several they are not athletic enough to play on the big field. 

Again, LL has it's place and that is as a recreational event but don't make it out to be a competitive baseball league or that those players in the LL WS are the best 12 or 13 year olds out there.  There are a few but most could not even make a top travel team roster.

I think you are right that there is a lot of variation in quality of leagues, play and leadership.  Every family has to make its own assessment and do what's best.  I wouldn't presume to say your son (or daughter) should have played LL if you don't think that was right for him.  

I do think plenty of LL all star teams are competitive with most travel teams.  I'm in a large metro area with several strong LL programs.  The travel teams these leagues field (basically their ages 9-12 LL all star teams) win and place in plenty of tournaments.  These are weekend events drawing teams from roughly a 4- or 5-hour driving radius--definitely not a WWBA championship-type events, but drawing from a few million population all told.  Several of these teams go to Cooperstown as 12s, but I don't know of any playing PG events.  IMO these squads are in ~the top 1/3 of travel teams I've seen overall.  Being restricted to players a particular geographic area can be challenging.  If my house were three blocks north, my son would have played in a different league.  But I suppose the same is true of public HS districts... 

My son and his LL all star teammates did have a bit of a learning curve initially when they had to learn to hold runners, etc.   But I'd say they caught up within a season or so (most play HS baseball now; almost all who do not chose to play other HS sports).  (This is a team that won a state LL title in one of their pre-12 year-old years, so they admittedly were better than most LL programs around here.)

Chico Escuela posted:

RJM posted:Three kids from my son’s fall travel team missed a year of soccer due to repetitive stress hip injuries before they were fourteen. It was from playing year round. Soccer involves 8-10 miles of running per game. Go play a five game tournament weekend while you’re growing. Also, there’s more hip and shoulder contact than people know. 

Concussions.  Almost as many as American football.  Not to mention ACLs.  It's a great game, but I think US youth soccer has some things very wrong.  

The soccer ACL injuries are more prominent with females. It has to do with their hip structure. 

Everyone knows that little league all-star teams aren't as good as the 12U teams at the NYBC or similar tournaments, because they're drawing from narrower geographic bases.

But I don't understand the idea that everyone who plays LL is no good. My son's LL team from his 11U year -- his regular team, not his all-star team -- has two D1 commits (one Power 5), four other HS varsity regulars, and a seventh kid who played two years of HS baseball but concentrated on varsity football his last two years in HS. Think of it this way: the LL $ cost per AB is the lowest out there. For his 12U year, my kid did both LL and travel and had a lot of fun with both. 

2019Dad posted:

Everyone knows that little league all-star teams aren't as good as the 12U teams at the NYBC or similar tournaments, because they're drawing from narrower geographic bases.

But I don't understand the idea that everyone who plays LL is no good. My son's LL team from his 11U year -- his regular team, not his all-star team -- has two D1 commits (one Power 5), four other HS varsity regulars, and a seventh kid who played two years of HS baseball but concentrated on varsity football his last two years in HS. Think of it this way: the LL $ cost per AB is the lowest out there. For his 12U year, my kid did both LL and travel and had a lot of fun with both. 

We had a 12u Sunday DH travel team running concurrently with the LL season. The idea was to turn a team of  P/C/SS’s into a team that could play other positions in all stars. As coach I communicated with the regular season coaches on when LL pitchers had been used and how many pitches thrown, and when they would be pitched again The travel team had fifteen players most likely to be the twelve on all stars.  

PitchingFan posted:

DIGGUM, we tried with my oldest two sons and it was a disaster.  They threw too hard, they might hit somebody, the swing too hard, they are too competitive, it's not fair having them together on a team, and on and on and on.  It was a joke when you are trying to play against a team that has no one who can throw a strike or if they could it was 50 mph when they were seeing 75 in travel ball.  That is why players leave LL.  I know there are a few competitive leagues where it is worth it but that is not the case in most small towns.  it is a joke.  It has a place but just not in the competitive conversation.  Not mentioning all the local politics that come into play.  The good ole boy system where the guy who knows nothing about baseball other than he watches the Braves has been a coach for 30 years.  And he is the president so he gets the first pick each year.  Again, I know there are a few that do it right but they are the freak not the ordinary. 

I also believe the world has changed and so many of those kids who play only LL all the way until 14 are way behind when it comes to being able to be competitive.  So many of them cannot make a MS or HS team because they do not know how to pick-off or get a lead or swing a bat and the homeruns they hit in LL drop in front of the outfielders in travel ball or MS.  Or like several they are not athletic enough to play on the big field. 

Again, LL has it's place and that is as a recreational event but don't make it out to be a competitive baseball league or that those players in the LL WS are the best 12 or 13 year olds out there.  There are a few but most could not even make a top travel team roster.

I can understand the small town component of this when you have only a couple of very talented players.  I agree that the baseball world has changed but don't necessarily agree that it had to.  In the model I described you are getting some of both formats, can transition to the big field at 13 and  be completely competitive within your own age group at 14.  We had roughly 130 11-12 year olds in our majors LL split into 2 leagues.  Our 12 yr old all star group wound up with 3 D1 baseball players, 2 jucos, 1 D3, a D1 QB, a D1 track guy and a D3 OL. All the baseball players were able to compete very successfully against the top level travel players at 14 yrs old on.  Given that most baseball players in a certain geographic area would be willing to play LL it could in most instances provide a level of competition that is certainly capable of producing players who can succeed at higher levels.  Again, I can see that the LL structure probably doesn't work for small towns and players who have played exclusively LL are farther behind but a significant number of 9-12 yr old "travel" players don't make the top travel team rosters at a later age or ever contribute to their HS varsity teams either...why not keep it as local as you can...If most of the talented players in the area would play...the level of play and development gets better...the format of "how you play" at 9-12 has less of an impact than who you play with....

Australian parents spend 16k to play in LLWS

Makes me feel a lot better about the money I've spent on camps/TB.

Nice article on ESPN on a player trying to make the NFL right now who played on a team that was in the LLWS ten years ago: http://www.espn.com/blog/washi...-league-world-series

Quote: "Six kids from that team ended up playing Division I baseball." That's pretty good. 

Chico Escuela posted:

PitchingFan posted:

 

Again, LL has it's place and that is as a recreational event but don't make it out to be a competitive baseball league or that those players in the LL WS are the best 12 or 13 year olds out there.  There are a few but most could not even make a top travel team roster.

My son and his LL all star teammates did have a bit of a learning curve initially when they had to learn to hold runners, etc.   But I'd say they caught up within a season or so (most play HS baseball now; almost all who do not chose to play other HS sports).  (This is a team that won a state LL title in one of their pre-12 year-old years, so they admittedly were better than most LL programs around here.)

Let me start this by disclosing my disdain for LL.  In my experience  it is a malignant organization that exploits pre-teens with complete disregard for their well-being.   46' to the mound and 60' base paths  is ridiculously dangerous at this age and both LL and ESPN should be ashamed of themselves for promoting this carnage.  The notion of all-star 12 year olds is preposterous, but when a 12 year old  man child (who is often a shaving 13 year old), lays everything he has got into a linedrive up the middle, I don't want to be finishing my follow through off the mound 38' away.

That being said, my son's 12 year old buddies played LL, so he wanted to play.  From his 2013 12u all-star team there are three players who were invited to the PG national at Tropicana field this summer.  All three of them with rankings above 500.  All three of them with multiple P5 offers, and all three of them commitments to D1 powerhouses.  There are two others from this team with strong D2 and JUCO commits.  There are two more still trying to choose from offers that they have.  This LL team did not even make it out of their state playoffs.   All 7 of these kids played on the same Travel team  and won most travel tournaments that they entered and made the championship game  in all but one tournament that year.  Definitively, LL has good players.

They had other LL all-star friends with talent, but they played almost exclusively LL and very little travel ball.  These friends routinely looked silly when it came time to hold runners, take a lead, and field their infield position as they began playing 'real' baseball.  It definitely hurt their development and none of those individuals has committed to play college ball, despite most having a desire. 

Just my experience.