Which type of stride makes the best results for a hitter? Is it the toe-tap? High leg kick? or is it a personal prefrence??What makes them diffrent??Plz Help
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Well, not much going on. So, I'll add my two cents, which might actually be worth less than that.
The type of stride is a personal choice. Some hitters find one way works best for them because it is more comfortable or more easily repeatable. Working with my son who has a knack for developing bad habits, I've found that the stride needs to be able to keep the weight back while moving the mass forward.
By that I mean a lot of hitters push off the rear foot/leg and the weight gets out front too early. So, a hitter has to be able to load the front leg/hip rearward to re-load the rear leg/hip while the body itself is moving forward. With my son, he has experimented a few different ways. Visually, I know he is OK when the front foot touches down, and the center point of his body is at, or slightly behind, the mid-point of his feet. That allows him to shift his weight as/after he gets his foot down when he fires the backside. He has settled on inverting the front leg and pinching the front hip while he is striding (can also "pinch the knees") so that he can land on the inside ball of his front foot.
The keys to whatever you choose: Keep the weight weight back (re-load backside) while striding forward, don't let the hips drift past the mid-point of the feet, land on the inside ball of the front foot, and drop the front foot while firing the backside.
That'll give you a fairly good feel which you can tweak and make adjustments to your liking and for different pitches.
Good luck.
The type of stride is a personal choice. Some hitters find one way works best for them because it is more comfortable or more easily repeatable. Working with my son who has a knack for developing bad habits, I've found that the stride needs to be able to keep the weight back while moving the mass forward.
By that I mean a lot of hitters push off the rear foot/leg and the weight gets out front too early. So, a hitter has to be able to load the front leg/hip rearward to re-load the rear leg/hip while the body itself is moving forward. With my son, he has experimented a few different ways. Visually, I know he is OK when the front foot touches down, and the center point of his body is at, or slightly behind, the mid-point of his feet. That allows him to shift his weight as/after he gets his foot down when he fires the backside. He has settled on inverting the front leg and pinching the front hip while he is striding (can also "pinch the knees") so that he can land on the inside ball of his front foot.
The keys to whatever you choose: Keep the weight weight back (re-load backside) while striding forward, don't let the hips drift past the mid-point of the feet, land on the inside ball of the front foot, and drop the front foot while firing the backside.
That'll give you a fairly good feel which you can tweak and make adjustments to your liking and for different pitches.
Good luck.
I agree that's it's a personal choice and what works best for each hitter.
"Stride to see the ball, not to hit the ball" was something told to me over 40 years ago and is something I tell kids today. Don't want them stridng and swinging at the same time.
Whatever method you use is personal but I have always taught a quiet, smooth stride.
Whatever method you use is personal but I have always taught a quiet, smooth stride.
quote:Don't want them stridng and swinging at the same time.
The term, "striding and swinging" should be dropped from any discussion about hitting.....The term is old school and is not of value in a hitting discussion....It's the same as "linear" and "rotational", which has no value in a hitting discussion....
There can be support given to the theory that the swing is what forces the front foot to the ground....
Bluedog,
Striding and swinging isn't as much a term as seperate actions and purposes. Was not/ is not said in the context you assume.
Explain your theory clearly...as is, the statement is not accurate. Yes, there is credence in what you are attempting to say (poorly) but as is, the statement doesn't hold water in a high level swing.
No, it doesn't have anything doing with the front hip rotating...opening perhaps, but that has nothing to do with the hips rotating. Two seperate actions with seperate purposes in a high level swing.
Wayback,
Not bad...not bad at all. Several good points raised and explained.
Striding and swinging isn't as much a term as seperate actions and purposes. Was not/ is not said in the context you assume.
Explain your theory clearly...as is, the statement is not accurate. Yes, there is credence in what you are attempting to say (poorly) but as is, the statement doesn't hold water in a high level swing.
No, it doesn't have anything doing with the front hip rotating...opening perhaps, but that has nothing to do with the hips rotating. Two seperate actions with seperate purposes in a high level swing.
Wayback,
Not bad...not bad at all. Several good points raised and explained.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
There can be support given to the theory that the swing is what forces the front foot to the ground....
hence the yeager cue let the back leg put the front leg down
quote:.....there is credence in what you are attempting to say (poorly) but as is, the statement doesn't hold water in a high level swing.
Oh, I see.....I didn't know that....
I ask, does this clip fit in with what Abrams is saying about the stride?
Maybe it does, I don't know.....
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Bluedog,
In regard to his hands, are you opposed to Berkman's tip? Not sure "hinge angle" is the right term here, but he appears to be tipping with a sort of wrist extension. Do you see this? And if yes, are you for or against?
(I'm not asking if you are opposed to the tip, but HOW he tips.)
Yessir, I see it and, no, I'm not opposed to it....
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Yessir, I see it and, no, I'm not opposed to it....
In regard to the sequence and relationship between the tip and the stride, do you feel Berkman is doing this to generate greater "float" and greater batspeed to contact? Or is this more a style thing? I don't see it in the Williams rear view. Is it a teach, a non-teach, or a "try this and see how if feels."
Mr. Tewks, I know I do it in my swing and it's to generate float....I have had several young students who, also, do it, but, I teach with my swing as a visual guide....So, maybe they're emulating me, I don't know....
I would say it's a no-teach.....Some hitters have quiet hands and some have more nervous hands..,,I'm the nervous hand type...
I'd be curious to see if Berkman does the same with similar sequence from the left side. Doesn't he (didn't he?) have more power from the right but better average from the left? I'll try to find some older footage of a similar angle.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Mr. Tewks, I know I do it in my swing and it's to generate float....I have had several young students who, also, do it, but, I teach with my swing as a visual guide....So, maybe they're emulating me, I don't know....
Do the parents worry about this with your younger players? I think developing this movement pattern at a younger age is great, but a lot of parents seem to prefer a more "simple" approach. Do you feel the float is natural with some players?
Parents don't interfere with my teaching....If they don't like what I'm doing, they just don't bring the player back....That has happened a time, or two.....I don't ask them why as I don't care why.....Same as a player doesn't show me alot of interest in being a good hitter....I won't continue working with him....So, you drop me, I drop you, fair enough....
I don't find players naturally inclined to float the bat.....I, also, find that players struggle with loading the back hip........This stuff needs to be learned, IMO.....
I don't find players naturally inclined to float the bat.....I, also, find that players struggle with loading the back hip........This stuff needs to be learned, IMO.....
Good BP clip of Williams and of Berkmann in HR contest both hitting 65-70 mph grooved fastballs.
You can learn alot about hitting random curves, sliders, sinkers and changeups in BP and HR contests.
You can learn alot about hitting random curves, sliders, sinkers and changeups in BP and HR contests.
Very good....Took you long enough...
You had to figure sooner, or later, this was coming....
You had to figure sooner, or later, this was coming....
And, I will say, I can't say you're wrong....
Hey, Mr. Tewks, looks like my PMing has been blocked by these folks....So, I can't answer your PM...
My e-mail is byyouself@yahoo.com............
My e-mail is byyouself@yahoo.com............
Bluedog,
Sorry about the delay as I'm sure ya missed me. Been up in S.C. visiting a kid at Clemson that I've worked with in the past.
The clip of Williams is classic in that it really demonstrates the "swing flaw" (that Williams readily admitted to) that lead to his slightly longer swing.
Nahh, ain't the stride or hips.
Sorry about the delay as I'm sure ya missed me. Been up in S.C. visiting a kid at Clemson that I've worked with in the past.
The clip of Williams is classic in that it really demonstrates the "swing flaw" (that Williams readily admitted to) that lead to his slightly longer swing.
Nahh, ain't the stride or hips.
BlueDog,
Your PMing is not blocked. I am the person who would need to block your permissions, and I have not done so. I just double-checked your settings and they are the same as other members. If your PM messages seem to be blocked, they might have been blocked by the recipient.
Julie
Your PMing is not blocked. I am the person who would need to block your permissions, and I have not done so. I just double-checked your settings and they are the same as other members. If your PM messages seem to be blocked, they might have been blocked by the recipient.
Julie
quote:Originally posted by MN-Mom:
BlueDog,
Your PMing is not blocked. I am the person who would need to block your permissions, and I have not done so. I just double-checked your settings and they are the same as other members. If your PM messages seem to be blocked, they might have been blocked by the recipient.
Julie
My PMs are not blocked.
Blue, my email is: bobby@abathletics.com
Power, I tried to answer your PM....Couldn't do it....
quote:Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Good BP clip of Williams and of Berkmann in HR contest both hitting 65-70 mph grooved fastballs.
You can learn alot about hitting random curves, sliders, sinkers and changeups in BP and HR contests.
I'm sick of the HR Derby argument. Everytime I hit a ball really well in a game or in practice, I felt like I had perfect timing. In fact, in games I worked really hard to have good timing. (And, IMO, better mechanics will allow your swing to have better timing against a greater range of pitches.) Swinging at strikes helps greatly...
Also, leave your random curves, sliders, sinkers and changeups UP and you'll some BP/HR Derby-like swings. They will look like they are hitting grooved 65-70 MPH BP fastballs.
Bobby,
Sorry to hear you're not feeling well.
Just seen too many .600+ hitters in BP over the years that neede to adjust their cup come game time.
Game film shows me more about the hitter.
Good timing and swinging at good pitches...totally agree with you.
Sorry to hear you're not feeling well.
Just seen too many .600+ hitters in BP over the years that neede to adjust their cup come game time.
Game film shows me more about the hitter.
Good timing and swinging at good pitches...totally agree with you.
quote:Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Bobby,
Sorry to hear you're not feeling well.
Just seen too many .600+ hitters in BP over the years that neede to adjust their cup come game time.
Game film shows me more about the hitter.
Good timing and swinging at good pitches...totally agree with you.
Don't worry, I've seen my fair share of 5 o'clock Heroes and BP All-Americans. Doesn't mean they can do it in a game.
BUT... If I know they can do it in a game, I certainly want to watch their BP swings. I want to see their intent and their adjustments. I've used this analogy before... it would be like watching a jam session of your favorite band. You know they kill it on stage... but how do they get there.
HR Derby swings are just fun. When a guy hits a ball that makes you laugh... Thats pretty special.
PS I was at Yankee Stadium when Hamilton hit a billion balls out. You think his game swing is much different than the swing he used that night?
The stride CATCHES the swing.
Hitters do not stride and land with their hips closed and square to the plate.
Hitters do not stride and land with their hips closed and square to the plate.
Game swing. Now what?
Just bumping the GIF. Hi SB.
Good clip, swingbuilder.
No real argument with what you've said.
Good example of what I have been saying about the front hip opening versus hip rotation. Combined with Williams tendency to stride towards the 2baseman,makes the two movements hard to see. Williams would let the swing finish driving his lead foot heel down (similar to your stride catches the swing); he opens the front knee during the stride to toe touch ( opens the front hip without rotation) and uses the intiation of the swing to drive the front heel down with swing/rotation. Opening the front hip made it easier for him to clear his hips quickly during the swing.
Nice shot of the variance in hip rotation for both swings along with the variance in how open the front foot is at heel plant. Amazing ability to adjust.
In other words, you can open the front hip during the stride without rotating the hips. Rotating the hips before toe touch/whatever while striding is not what you want. Can't say it any plainer than that. The same thing can be done no-stride with opening the front foot and knee when setting the foot down (Pujols will do this).
And yes Virginia, I do teach hitters how to open the front hip into the stride and WHY and WHAT it does for them. The athletic kids usually do it naturally as well as having some degree of bat tip.
Both clips do a good job of showing the loading of the rear hip like Bluedog mentioned earlier.
Loop in the swing is the "flaw" Williams did intentionally to help create loft in the swing (short RF porch in Boston) as he wrote about in his book; made for a longer swing but accomplished what he wanted. He liked holding the bat vertically because he said it made the bat feel lighter in his hands. Williams swing was not one that awed with its raw power but rather with its smoothness, fluidity and precision. The man had amazing pitch recognition ability...probably because he outworked and outstudied the opposition. As a catcher, you see Williams swing and you see the holes in the swing... and then you are shocked as his ability to adjust and close the holes that others can't.
Just imagine being a teenage minor leaguer and having The Rajah as a coach....had to be heaven for someone as fanatical about hitting as Williams was.
BP film is fun to watch but I prefer game film 100% of the time. I want students to see the adjustments on varying pitch locations,etc. and how a hitter makes them. BP does show potential of a hitter but doesn't tell me if he is a really hitter or just a swinger ( which by the way, is one of the areas coaches and swing instructors often clash in opinions).
***You may or may not agree with all the above or anything..that is fine but if all the "specialists" and swing instructors would speak as plainly as I just did above, maybe everybody could get on the same page or at least understand the point. If we are really trying to help the parents and kids who are "the backbone of the game" then we will speak/type plainly. Doing otherwise is merely self serving to the ego of the writer.
Funny seeing the catcher's position/stance and how the strikezone has changed over time. Looks like Ted took a pitch on the corner to left/left center.
No real argument with what you've said.
Good example of what I have been saying about the front hip opening versus hip rotation. Combined with Williams tendency to stride towards the 2baseman,makes the two movements hard to see. Williams would let the swing finish driving his lead foot heel down (similar to your stride catches the swing); he opens the front knee during the stride to toe touch ( opens the front hip without rotation) and uses the intiation of the swing to drive the front heel down with swing/rotation. Opening the front hip made it easier for him to clear his hips quickly during the swing.
Nice shot of the variance in hip rotation for both swings along with the variance in how open the front foot is at heel plant. Amazing ability to adjust.
In other words, you can open the front hip during the stride without rotating the hips. Rotating the hips before toe touch/whatever while striding is not what you want. Can't say it any plainer than that. The same thing can be done no-stride with opening the front foot and knee when setting the foot down (Pujols will do this).
And yes Virginia, I do teach hitters how to open the front hip into the stride and WHY and WHAT it does for them. The athletic kids usually do it naturally as well as having some degree of bat tip.
Both clips do a good job of showing the loading of the rear hip like Bluedog mentioned earlier.
Loop in the swing is the "flaw" Williams did intentionally to help create loft in the swing (short RF porch in Boston) as he wrote about in his book; made for a longer swing but accomplished what he wanted. He liked holding the bat vertically because he said it made the bat feel lighter in his hands. Williams swing was not one that awed with its raw power but rather with its smoothness, fluidity and precision. The man had amazing pitch recognition ability...probably because he outworked and outstudied the opposition. As a catcher, you see Williams swing and you see the holes in the swing... and then you are shocked as his ability to adjust and close the holes that others can't.
Just imagine being a teenage minor leaguer and having The Rajah as a coach....had to be heaven for someone as fanatical about hitting as Williams was.
BP film is fun to watch but I prefer game film 100% of the time. I want students to see the adjustments on varying pitch locations,etc. and how a hitter makes them. BP does show potential of a hitter but doesn't tell me if he is a really hitter or just a swinger ( which by the way, is one of the areas coaches and swing instructors often clash in opinions).
***You may or may not agree with all the above or anything..that is fine but if all the "specialists" and swing instructors would speak as plainly as I just did above, maybe everybody could get on the same page or at least understand the point. If we are really trying to help the parents and kids who are "the backbone of the game" then we will speak/type plainly. Doing otherwise is merely self serving to the ego of the writer.
Funny seeing the catcher's position/stance and how the strikezone has changed over time. Looks like Ted took a pitch on the corner to left/left center.
HA...you might open that lead leg but you ain't opening that lead hip without that rear hip also responding.....now you have an argument 
You have to think of it in this way.....
Good hitters, like Ted, turn to go forward.
That lead hip isn't doing jack without that rear hip doing something.
You have to think of it in this way.....
Good hitters, like Ted, turn to go forward.
That lead hip isn't doing jack without that rear hip doing something.
quote:Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Good clip, swingbuilder.
No real argument with what you've said.
Good example of what I have been saying about the front hip opening versus hip rotation. Combined with Williams tendency to stride towards the 2baseman,makes the two movements hard to see. Williams would let the swing finish driving his lead foot heel down (similar to your stride catches the swing); he opens the front knee during the stride to toe touch ( opens the front hip without rotation) and uses the intiation of the swing to drive the front heel down with swing/rotation. Opening the front hip made it easier for him to clear his hips quickly during the swing.
Nice shot of the variance in hip rotation for both swings along with the variance in how open the front foot is at heel plant. Amazing ability to adjust.
In other words, you can open the front hip during the stride without rotating the hips. Rotating the hips before toe touch/whatever while striding is not what you want. Can't say it any plainer than that. The same thing can be done no-stride with opening the front foot and knee when setting the foot down (Pujols will do this).
And yes Virginia, I do teach hitters how to open the front hip into the stride and WHY and WHAT it does for them. The athletic kids usually do it naturally as well as having some degree of bat tip.
Both clips do a good job of showing the loading of the rear hip like Bluedog mentioned earlier.
Loop in the swing is the "flaw" Williams did intentionally to help create loft in the swing (short RF porch in Boston) as he wrote about in his book; made for a longer swing but accomplished what he wanted. He liked holding the bat vertically because he said it made the bat feel lighter in his hands. Williams swing was not one that awed with its raw power but rather with its smoothness, fluidity and precision. The man had amazing pitch recognition ability...probably because he outworked and outstudied the opposition. As a catcher, you see Williams swing and you see the holes in the swing... and then you are shocked as his ability to adjust and close the holes that others can't.
Just imagine being a teenage minor leaguer and having The Rajah as a coach....had to be heaven for someone as fanatical about hitting as Williams was.
BP film is fun to watch but I prefer game film 100% of the time. I want students to see the adjustments on varying pitch locations,etc. and how a hitter makes them. BP does show potential of a hitter but doesn't tell me if he is a really hitter or just a swinger ( which by the way, is one of the areas coaches and swing instructors often clash in opinions).
***You may or may not agree with all the above or anything..that is fine but if all the "specialists" and swing instructors would speak as plainly as I just did above, maybe everybody could get on the same page or at least understand the point. If we are really trying to help the parents and kids who are "the backbone of the game" then we will speak/type plainly. Doing otherwise is merely self serving to the ego of the writer.
Funny seeing the catcher's position/stance and how the strikezone has changed over time. Looks like Ted took a pitch on the corner to left/left center.
I was just wondering...where did Ted hear about the "Kentucky Stretch"?
Power,
You got me...have not a clue nor can I say I've ever heard the term ( embarassing to a trivia/historian type).
Swing,
Don't confuse hip opening with hip rotation. If you are thinking hip opening as when the front hip actually moves away from, lets say homeplate as a reference point, then that is part of hip rotation and absolutely the rear hip is very involved. As I said, hip opening to me is the knee/front foot opening which is caused by rotation within the hip socket with no rotation of the pelvis/pelvic girdle/ hips (plural). You can actually do this while rotating the hips/pelvis/pelvic girdle in the opposite direction.
The video you show looks like either Arod or Soriano and neither opens the front hip quite like Williams did. In the video, does the rear hip fire before toe touch? No. it doesn't which is what I was saying earlier about not rotating until toe touch.This hitter is rotating into the stride (no problem). As a test, check your hip rotation with keeping your lead/stride foot 90 degrees to the plate then check at 45 degrees and then 30 degrees and tell me which position allows easier,smoother hip rotation. Much of how much of an angle is a personal preference; I wasn't as extremme as Williams and was about 45 degrees; 90 degrees felt too binding to the hip rotation.
Trying to speak plainly. Maybe should have called my hip opening a knee opening even though the pivot point is the hip socket. Others have called this action hip rotation which it definitely is not.
I'm a rear hip guy but the front hip can screw things up also. JMO.
Call me old fashioned, but I really dislike the high knee lift. Just believe there are easier, smoother ways to accomplish the same thing. To each his own. At least they're not trying to be Mel Ott.
You got me...have not a clue nor can I say I've ever heard the term ( embarassing to a trivia/historian type).
Swing,
Don't confuse hip opening with hip rotation. If you are thinking hip opening as when the front hip actually moves away from, lets say homeplate as a reference point, then that is part of hip rotation and absolutely the rear hip is very involved. As I said, hip opening to me is the knee/front foot opening which is caused by rotation within the hip socket with no rotation of the pelvis/pelvic girdle/ hips (plural). You can actually do this while rotating the hips/pelvis/pelvic girdle in the opposite direction.
The video you show looks like either Arod or Soriano and neither opens the front hip quite like Williams did. In the video, does the rear hip fire before toe touch? No. it doesn't which is what I was saying earlier about not rotating until toe touch.This hitter is rotating into the stride (no problem). As a test, check your hip rotation with keeping your lead/stride foot 90 degrees to the plate then check at 45 degrees and then 30 degrees and tell me which position allows easier,smoother hip rotation. Much of how much of an angle is a personal preference; I wasn't as extremme as Williams and was about 45 degrees; 90 degrees felt too binding to the hip rotation.
Trying to speak plainly. Maybe should have called my hip opening a knee opening even though the pivot point is the hip socket. Others have called this action hip rotation which it definitely is not.
I'm a rear hip guy but the front hip can screw things up also. JMO.
Call me old fashioned, but I really dislike the high knee lift. Just believe there are easier, smoother ways to accomplish the same thing. To each his own. At least they're not trying to be Mel Ott.
quote:you ain't opening that lead hip without that rear hip also responding.....
Swing, not so....
You got two hips....They work independently of each other....
quote:I was just wondering...where did Ted hear about the "Kentucky Stretch"?
Good one, Power.....
Probably from Hank Greenberg.....
Bluedog,
I agree (this hurts) with your point about the two hips can work independent of each other. Ball and socket design allows for alot of different movements. Would be hard to develop torque through your core otherwise. The problem comes when there is confusion of the hip sockets versus the pelvis/pelvic girdle itself.
Nice pic of Mel Ott...he really took advantage of the short porch at the Polo Grounds.
I agree (this hurts) with your point about the two hips can work independent of each other. Ball and socket design allows for alot of different movements. Would be hard to develop torque through your core otherwise. The problem comes when there is confusion of the hip sockets versus the pelvis/pelvic girdle itself.
Nice pic of Mel Ott...he really took advantage of the short porch at the Polo Grounds.
Power,
Kentucky Stretch...no idea if wasn't Luscomb, Bush, Venzor, Sheehan or Cronin.
My guess (actually WAG) is Luscomb.
And just what was/is The Kentucky Stretch if there is such a thing? The only stretch in Kentucky I care about is at Churchill Downs.
Couldn't been Greenberg (LOL)..he wasn't particularly fond of Williams and his wonderful personality.
Kentucky Stretch...no idea if wasn't Luscomb, Bush, Venzor, Sheehan or Cronin.
My guess (actually WAG) is Luscomb.
And just what was/is The Kentucky Stretch if there is such a thing? The only stretch in Kentucky I care about is at Churchill Downs.
Couldn't been Greenberg (LOL)..he wasn't particularly fond of Williams and his wonderful personality.
quote:Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Power,
Kentucky Stretch...no idea if wasn't Luscomb, Bush, Venzor, Sheehan or Cronin.
My guess (actually WAG) is Luscomb.
And just what was/is The Kentucky Stretch if there is such a thing? The only stretch in Kentucky I care about is at Churchill Downs.
Couldn't been Greenberg (LOL)..he wasn't particularly fond of Williams and his wonderful personality.
Sorry, it's an inside joke between me and swingbuilder. He doesn't believe in stretch between the hips. He believes you should hit with a basketball or beach ball between your knees. He calls it "pressure between the knees". Obviously, Bluedog and I don't agree with his assessment and from your earlier post, I'd say you don't agree with him either. He dubbed stretch between the hips as "the Kentucky Stretch".
Power,
Was wondering cause I had never heard of the phrase (among many).
If swingbuilder is talking about a slight tension on the inside of the thighs/knees during the stride until toe touch, I understand his point but don't know if all hitters need to do so. I always had a very slight tension (inside knees/thighs) during the stride in an effort to stay somewhat centered and avoid drifting my weight forward over my front foot...but it stopped at toe touch, and I always viewed it as a personal quirk. Can't say I would advocate/teach actually swinging/hitting with that tension. JMO
A beachball? I would pull a hamstring if I tried.
Was wondering cause I had never heard of the phrase (among many).
If swingbuilder is talking about a slight tension on the inside of the thighs/knees during the stride until toe touch, I understand his point but don't know if all hitters need to do so. I always had a very slight tension (inside knees/thighs) during the stride in an effort to stay somewhat centered and avoid drifting my weight forward over my front foot...but it stopped at toe touch, and I always viewed it as a personal quirk. Can't say I would advocate/teach actually swinging/hitting with that tension. JMO
A beachball? I would pull a hamstring if I tried.
This would be chasing knees and NOT what you want to do.
This guy has the correct pressure BETWEEN HIS KNEES
This guy has PRESSURE BETWEEN HIS KNEES
and this guy
and these guys do too.
Abrams...let me see you stretch those hips wider apart....good luck.
And precisely why those in question won't have and don't have any high level hitters.
The pressure between the knees is how good hitters store and direct engery and adjust to off speed pitches and ball levels and locations.
But keep trying to stretch those hips apart. That should take you a lifetime and child birth to achieve!!!
This guy has the correct pressure BETWEEN HIS KNEES
This guy has PRESSURE BETWEEN HIS KNEES
and this guy
and these guys do too.
Abrams...let me see you stretch those hips wider apart....good luck.
And precisely why those in question won't have and don't have any high level hitters.
The pressure between the knees is how good hitters store and direct engery and adjust to off speed pitches and ball levels and locations.
But keep trying to stretch those hips apart. That should take you a lifetime and child birth to achieve!!!
A rope wrapped around two spools about two feet apart. Can you stretch the rope between the two without spreading the spools apart??? Of course you can, but the guy who thinks he has developed high level hitters, probably can't figure that out or at least, he hasn't so far. 
Swingbuilder, that example of "chasing knees" is in no way what I think of when using the same cue. In fact, the video of Pena clip is more along the lines. Take a look at the relationship of those knees. You can clearly see the relationship of knee to knee.
Swing,
Nice clips.
Who is talking about "stretching the hips apart"? Never said that myself. Can't be done.
Do not confuse hip opening/knee opening with hip rotation. Don't confuse the action of the hip socket during the stride with the rotation of the pelvis is what I've said. Can't say it any plainer than that. If you are saying the opening of the front knee is hip/pelvic rotation, I totally disagree.
Imagine two rods vertically stuck in the ground connected by a spring that is screwed to the inside part of the rods (screwed at the closest point between the rods).Distance between the rods is maintained constant by a brace between the rods with bearings connecting the rods and the brace. Now rotate one rod (front) away from the other rod while the brace maintains the exact same distance between the rods and the other rod (rear)is kept from rotating. What happens to the spring? It stretches yet the rods have not moved away from each other and the brace has never moved. The point where the screw is attached and the bearings represent the hip socket and the rods themselves the femur/legs and the brace is the pelvis. No lateral movement yet there is rotational movement but not of the pelvis/brace. No actual stretch distance wise between the hips yet tension (energy)is created between the hips.
IF ANYBODY CAN SAY IT PLAINER OR MORE CLEARLY JUMP IN. IF YOU DISAGREE TEAR MY MODEL APART AND HAVE AT IT BUT SPELL IT OUT.
Like I said I understand the knee tension and did so myself but not sure if it a teaching point with all hitters and swing types. If you teach this tension to all hitters that's fine...tell me how you do it.
Sorry, but I don't understand the point you are trying to make.
Nice clips.
Who is talking about "stretching the hips apart"? Never said that myself. Can't be done.
Do not confuse hip opening/knee opening with hip rotation. Don't confuse the action of the hip socket during the stride with the rotation of the pelvis is what I've said. Can't say it any plainer than that. If you are saying the opening of the front knee is hip/pelvic rotation, I totally disagree.
Imagine two rods vertically stuck in the ground connected by a spring that is screwed to the inside part of the rods (screwed at the closest point between the rods).Distance between the rods is maintained constant by a brace between the rods with bearings connecting the rods and the brace. Now rotate one rod (front) away from the other rod while the brace maintains the exact same distance between the rods and the other rod (rear)is kept from rotating. What happens to the spring? It stretches yet the rods have not moved away from each other and the brace has never moved. The point where the screw is attached and the bearings represent the hip socket and the rods themselves the femur/legs and the brace is the pelvis. No lateral movement yet there is rotational movement but not of the pelvis/brace. No actual stretch distance wise between the hips yet tension (energy)is created between the hips.
IF ANYBODY CAN SAY IT PLAINER OR MORE CLEARLY JUMP IN. IF YOU DISAGREE TEAR MY MODEL APART AND HAVE AT IT BUT SPELL IT OUT.
Like I said I understand the knee tension and did so myself but not sure if it a teaching point with all hitters and swing types. If you teach this tension to all hitters that's fine...tell me how you do it.
Sorry, but I don't understand the point you are trying to make.
quote:Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Swing,
Nice clips.
Who is talking about "stretching the hips apart"? Never said that myself. Can't be done.
Do not confuse hip opening/knee opening with hip rotation. Don't confuse the action of the hip socket during the stride with the rotation of the pelvis is what I've said. Can't say it any plainer than that. If you are saying the opening of the front knee is hip/pelvic rotation, I totally disagree.
Imagine two rods vertically stuck in the ground connected by a spring that is screwed to the inside part of the rods (screwed at the closest point between the rods).Distance between the rods is maintained constant by a brace between the rods with bearings connecting the rods and the brace. Now rotate one rod (front) away from the other rod while the brace maintains the exact same distance between the rods and the other rod (rear)is kept from rotating. What happens to the spring? It stretches yet the rods have not moved away from each other and the brace has never moved. The point where the screw is attached and the bearings represent the hip socket and the rods themselves the femur/legs and the brace is the pelvis. No lateral movement yet there is rotational movement but not of the pelvis/brace. No actual stretch distance wise between the hips yet tension (energy)is created between the hips.
IF ANYBODY CAN SAY IT PLAINER OR MORE CLEARLY JUMP IN. IF YOU DISAGREE TEAR MY MODEL APART AND HAVE AT IT BUT SPELL IT OUT.
Like I said I understand the knee tension and did so myself but not sure if it a teaching point with all hitters and swing types. If you teach this tension to all hitters that's fine...tell me how you do it.
Sorry, but I don't understand the point you are trying to make.
I agree with what you're saying here and is what I was getting at with the two spool analogy. I made it a rope because builder doesn't believe in stretch, lol. He teaches pressure between the knees by having the hitter hold a basketball or beach ball between their knees and they try to keep the ball from falling out.
Abrams...lol
So your going to use the lead leg to produce stretch by flaring the lead knee while you hold the rear leg static. In a rear legged approach.
You spin the spools Abrams and try your best to make adjustments.
There must be pressure between the knees to make adjustments and to direct the energy and to have quality balance.
Heck even Powers son does it....want me to show you.
Turning the spool is bleed, its flare, its draining the drive train....Abrams, he'll figure it out one day....when its to late.
So your going to use the lead leg to produce stretch by flaring the lead knee while you hold the rear leg static. In a rear legged approach.
You spin the spools Abrams and try your best to make adjustments.
There must be pressure between the knees to make adjustments and to direct the energy and to have quality balance.
Heck even Powers son does it....want me to show you.
Turning the spool is bleed, its flare, its draining the drive train....Abrams, he'll figure it out one day....when its to late.
Coach 25.....the word chase means THAT exactly...run after. So you want the rear knee to run after the lead knee? SO the force is applied by the lead knee and leg in your swing theory?
Good for you...its not in mine.
Good for you...its not in mine.
Power,
The spool deal worked; thought I'd add some body parts.
The kicker is that you can/should have both the Power/Bluedog stretch and the Swingbuilder tension in the same swing.
****it ain't like we're dealing only with one group of muscles during the swing.****
Basic Kinesiology 101. Actually a real difficult subject when you consider the number of muscles and the fact that muscles either contract/pull or relax but they can't push. Took just enough Kinesiology to realize I needed to change majors.
I feel a Rodney King moment coming soon.
NAHHH...that wouldn't be any fun.
The spool deal worked; thought I'd add some body parts.
The kicker is that you can/should have both the Power/Bluedog stretch and the Swingbuilder tension in the same swing.
****it ain't like we're dealing only with one group of muscles during the swing.****
Basic Kinesiology 101. Actually a real difficult subject when you consider the number of muscles and the fact that muscles either contract/pull or relax but they can't push. Took just enough Kinesiology to realize I needed to change majors.
I feel a Rodney King moment coming soon.
NAHHH...that wouldn't be any fun.
Swing,
Good point about balance and adjustments.
Now read again. Look at your clips again. Closely.
If you think opening the front knee is done solely as a power source, you aren't reading all what has been said but rather inferring your own opinion.
Power/Bluedog are looking at a power transmission source due to stretch and you are looking at a control/adjustment source with your tension. They are not mutually exclusive but rather work together AT THE SAME TIME. You can argue which is more important but if you are arguing that they can't exist together...well, you are simply wrong.
Quit thinking of the "spools" as a SOURCE of power is the best advice I can give. Otherwise you think of "spinning" which is not what happens and is too simplistic a term for what happens during the swing.
Basic Kinesiology 101.
Good point about balance and adjustments.
Now read again. Look at your clips again. Closely.
If you think opening the front knee is done solely as a power source, you aren't reading all what has been said but rather inferring your own opinion.
Power/Bluedog are looking at a power transmission source due to stretch and you are looking at a control/adjustment source with your tension. They are not mutually exclusive but rather work together AT THE SAME TIME. You can argue which is more important but if you are arguing that they can't exist together...well, you are simply wrong.
Quit thinking of the "spools" as a SOURCE of power is the best advice I can give. Otherwise you think of "spinning" which is not what happens and is too simplistic a term for what happens during the swing.
Basic Kinesiology 101.
ok Abrams....the Kentucky Stretch is being performed by the guy in the Orange shirt.
You teach your hitters that all you want. Have fun with that!
quote:Originally posted by S. Abrams:
The kicker is that you can/should have both the Power/Bluedog stretch and the Swingbuilder tension in the same swing.
I agree with "tension". I don't agree with pressure between.
Swing,
Getting a bit touchy aren't we...ain't curing cancer here and nobody is dying to hear the final answer to this discussion. Being that there are about 20 terms used by everybody to describe the same thing, I'd say the Middle East Peace Talks have a better chance of reaching an agreement.
I can see why Kentucky is a basketball state...
neither of these guys are that close to what I have described. Of the two, the orange shirt is the worst; in fact he breaks a cardinal rule about the stride. Reread everything...again. Give me the kid in the blue anyday; ain't there yet but he has some potential.
Argue all you want but it doesn't change what the MLB hitters are doing in the clips. All have "tension" and all have "stretch" during their stride. If it makes more sense change the Power/Bluedog "stretch" to "tension"...just that this tension is through the hips versus between the knees/thighs.
You can then focus on whatever tension you want and that your students understand you because it matters not one bit what you or I know but rather what the student understands.
You are correct about the hips and hands driving the swing.
This is becoming an Nym*n/Epstein/Yeager type discussion...and we wonder why the coaches shake their heads?
Power,
Tension, pressure...may be an issue of semantics. I prefer tension as a descriptive term also but will not get too hung up if someone likes to say pressure. How about static pressure?
Getting a bit touchy aren't we...ain't curing cancer here and nobody is dying to hear the final answer to this discussion. Being that there are about 20 terms used by everybody to describe the same thing, I'd say the Middle East Peace Talks have a better chance of reaching an agreement.
I can see why Kentucky is a basketball state...
neither of these guys are that close to what I have described. Of the two, the orange shirt is the worst; in fact he breaks a cardinal rule about the stride. Reread everything...again. Give me the kid in the blue anyday; ain't there yet but he has some potential.
Argue all you want but it doesn't change what the MLB hitters are doing in the clips. All have "tension" and all have "stretch" during their stride. If it makes more sense change the Power/Bluedog "stretch" to "tension"...just that this tension is through the hips versus between the knees/thighs.
You can then focus on whatever tension you want and that your students understand you because it matters not one bit what you or I know but rather what the student understands.
You are correct about the hips and hands driving the swing.
This is becoming an Nym*n/Epstein/Yeager type discussion...and we wonder why the coaches shake their heads?
Power,
Tension, pressure...may be an issue of semantics. I prefer tension as a descriptive term also but will not get too hung up if someone likes to say pressure. How about static pressure?
quote:Originally posted by swingbuilder:
Coach 25.....the word chase means THAT exactly...run after. So you want the rear knee to run after the lead knee? SO the force is applied by the lead knee and leg in your swing theory?
Good for you...its not in mine.
Actually, I believe I'm on the record several times and on several sites saying that I want pressure/force on the inside part of the back knee. I also don't have a problem with anyone talking about the back hip. I believe I've made that clear several times. I was stating my opinion that the video you provided of what you termed a knee chase is not typical of what a lot of people think of when using the phrase "knee chase."
This is not my interpretation of "knee chase:"
This image is:
BTW, take a look at what I describe as pressure on teh inside part of the knee in the above video.
Take care!
Hey 25, you call it what you want. Chase is a spin of the hips.
quote:Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Power,
Tension, pressure...may be an issue of semantics. I prefer tension as a descriptive term also but will not get too hung up if someone likes to say pressure. How about static pressure?
It's not a matter of what it's called, it's a matter of how he teaches it. He has said to put a basketball or beach ball between the knees and swing without the ball falling. That is just stupid, sorry. BTW, I have never said that I teach someone to do what Brandon (kid in the orange) is doing in this swing. What I have said is that I don't think he's bleeding anything and I have asked builder to tell me what he thinks he's bleeding. All he will ever say is, "the power source". To that, I say, what power source? I believe in "balanced stretch" from the front hip all the way to the hands, centered in a rear hip pivot point.
Power,
I could see the beachball done as a drill to teach a kid to have some tension and maintain balance during the stride. Actual hitting...not so much unless the kid can't carry over the drill to the swing then I might try it. Some hitters may need a drill like this; some will not. Like I said, I used the knee/thigh tension to give me (personally) a quiet, controlled and balanced stride when I played.
Orange shirt (Brandon)swing appears to be rotating hips during/into the stride ( see back hip). Looks like a prime candidate for fighting bag drag later during the swing. looks like the typical "drag the bat through the zone" start. More of a stomp or step than a stride. JMO.
The "chase" swing has no knee tension at all. Back leg/knee is all over the place. Develops no torque through the core or hips. Has to be a pitcher or needs to consider it. ****watch the back knee and back hip and tell me which is powering the hip rotation; to me he is using the back knee to drag the rear hip into rotation. Wondering if others are seeing the same thing?
As I have said repeated times in numerous threads, I focus alot on the relationship and timing of the hands and the rear hip. The front hip is important but plays second fiddle to the rear hip,IMO.
I'm stopping at the "balanced stretch"...we can't even all get on the same page for the stride much less the full kinetic chain going from the hip to the hands.
I could see the beachball done as a drill to teach a kid to have some tension and maintain balance during the stride. Actual hitting...not so much unless the kid can't carry over the drill to the swing then I might try it. Some hitters may need a drill like this; some will not. Like I said, I used the knee/thigh tension to give me (personally) a quiet, controlled and balanced stride when I played.
Orange shirt (Brandon)swing appears to be rotating hips during/into the stride ( see back hip). Looks like a prime candidate for fighting bag drag later during the swing. looks like the typical "drag the bat through the zone" start. More of a stomp or step than a stride. JMO.
The "chase" swing has no knee tension at all. Back leg/knee is all over the place. Develops no torque through the core or hips. Has to be a pitcher or needs to consider it. ****watch the back knee and back hip and tell me which is powering the hip rotation; to me he is using the back knee to drag the rear hip into rotation. Wondering if others are seeing the same thing?
As I have said repeated times in numerous threads, I focus alot on the relationship and timing of the hands and the rear hip. The front hip is important but plays second fiddle to the rear hip,IMO.
I'm stopping at the "balanced stretch"...we can't even all get on the same page for the stride much less the full kinetic chain going from the hip to the hands.
quote:Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Power,
I could see the beachball done as a drill to teach a kid to have some tension and maintain balance during the stride. Actual hitting...not so much unless the kid can't carry over the drill to the swing then I might try it. Some hitters may need a drill like this; some will not. Like I said, I used the knee/thigh tension to give me (personally) a quiet, controlled and balanced stride when I played.
Orange shirt (Brandon)swing appears to be rotating hips during/into the stride ( see back hip). Looks like a prime candidate for fighting bag drag later during the swing. looks like the typical "drag the bat through the zone" start. More of a stomp or step than a stride. JMO.
The "chase" swing has no knee tension at all. Back leg/knee is all over the place. Develops no torque through the core or hips. Has to be a pitcher or needs to consider it. ****watch the back knee and back hip and tell me which is powering the hip rotation; to me he is using the back knee to drag the rear hip into rotation. Wondering if others are seeing the same thing?
As I have said repeated times in numerous threads, I focus alot on the relationship and timing of the hands and the rear hip. The front hip is important but plays second fiddle to the rear hip,IMO.
I'm stopping at the "balanced stretch"...we can't even all get on the same page for the stride much less the full kinetic chain going from the hip to the hands.
***Just added a question to previous post about the "chase" swing clip and what everybody believes is powering the hip rotation in that clip. Maybe should have started a new thread as this one got hijacked a long time ago.
Of course tension is involved in the legs/hips during the swing.....But, the beach ball stuff ain't it....
Swingbuilder, no way you got it right...You're on a dangling limb right now....
Swingbuilder, no way you got it right...You're on a dangling limb right now....
Blue Tman that hurts you all the way from St Louis.
Keep Flarin it!
Keep Flarin it!
