The Talent it Takes to 2nd Guess

Wow!!!! Great post Vanlandingham!!!!

Great post. Parents have ruined youth sports. It's sad. Those same parents for the most part are the same one who talk about how wonderful their summer teams are because they won this worls series or that one.

Parents, if you know you are going to a world series BEFORE your season begins, you need to question your coach - and yourself. Don't brag about going somewhere that only takes $$... there is no glory in that.

SO if you are attending any USSSA, CABA, Super Series, AAU, or any of that other **** that only takes a checkbook to get you in... get off of your high horse, and do something that takes a little earning... like the high school playoffs, little league world series, AABC, or any of the college world series...

the best thing about these parnets that are all about this **** is that within two years of grad. from high school, even the top 10% of h.s. players baseball careers will be over.

of course they'll blame somebody, just not their kid, themself, or that is the game of baseball...

Then there are the parents who think that HS ball is the end all, be all. You can go pretty far in HS ball on the backs of one great and one solid pitcher. Can't do that at JO or WWB...

After reading your post Vanlandingham the first thought that came to my mind was "Learning Curve"

I think players, parents and coaches need/should view each season as a learning process. When/if we lose site of that process we then tend to either repeat mistakes from the past or fail to grow and improve. And maybe some are afraid that the learning will cease and thus the venting.

Hopefully through the experiences we have all gone through this season, through all the venting that has occured on this site and from the peaks and valleys of the games we witnessed/played or coached we can continue to view each season as a learning curve.

Through the process us, that are parents, can continue to learn how to handle the peaks/valleys of next year's season, hopefully the players will grow from mistakes and from successes and be better suited for the experiences they will have next season and our coaches will hopefully continue to grow as well because each season brings a new cast of characters and a new season of hope and a sometimes a season of disappointment.

Thank you for your post. It is an eye opener.

Lynn, I know you let your younger son write that post but what a great one it is. I don't know if this same thing goes on in other parts of the state but I agree with you the coaches are doing the best they can with the limited amount of resources. This whole year reading the board I have read about Coaches, umpires, administrators, etc. getting blamed and decisions they make for what goes on between the white lines. This is amateur baseball and not life or death. Of all the players participating in high school baseball less than 10% will play at the Division 1 level and less than 2% will go on to a professional career. Thank the people that spend times with your kids in the afternoon making them better persons for the future. What they are getting paid to take time away from their own family and spend time with your kid is not worth the hassle. Most coaches do it because they like to coach and working with your son or daughter.

Vanlandingham,

I enjoyed your post as I often do.

It is so true that we live in a world today in which we do not take responsibility for our actions.

How hard is is to say......"It is my fault. I messed up."?

You spoke of what life lessons baseball has to offer. Unfortunately, the lessons today are skewed from what they were in the past.

Maybe you and I should write a book Lynn.

Titled............

The Boys of Summer, and Their Parents

Let me just piggyback Lynn in saying that our boys are very privledged to be able to play well enough to be on HS and select teams. For every one of our kids, there are probably dozens and dozens wishing they could be out there.

I guess it is a metter of perspective. Our new coach took a program that had been moribund for 20 plus years and took them to the playoffs, three rounds deep. Parents and players were crying after Clayton Kershaw struck out 15 of them, not because they were embarrassed, but because they didn't want the playoffs to end...it was too much fun. And I have never seen a more united group of kids.

Perhaps if he takes the team to the playoffs 3 or 4 straight years, we would start expecting it, but I hope to never take anything for granted.

Our coach made mistakes, as did our players. That is the nature of being a kid and playing baseball. The game has never been about making mistakes...it is about reducing them and dealing with them.

I feel sorry for the that Colleyville mom who couldn't appreciate the experience because she was focused on the negative. She will look back someday and wish she hadn't done that, because in the end, it doesn't matter.

Thanks, Lynn, and well said.

I got to thinking a little bit about this.....

I can count on one hand the number of games I remember my parents attending in high school. It was even less through my whole college career.

At first, one might think.........what a shame.

But, now that I think of it, I have to think I share the views I do because of it.

What happened to the days when parents showed up to just watch their son play baseball?

Some of you may have read this but its worth reading again.


It's How You Play the Game that Counts ...


Donald Jenson was struck in the head by a thrown bat while umpiring a Little League game in Terre Haute, Indiana. He continued to work the game, but later that evening was placed in a hospital for observation by a doctor. While there, Jenson wrote the following letter.

Dear Little League Parent:

I am an umpire. I don't do it for a living, but on Saturdays and Sundays for fun. I played the game, coached it and watched it. But somehow, nothing takes the place of umpiring. Maybe it's because I feel that deep down, I'm providing a fair chance for all the kids to play the game without disagreements and arguments.

With all the fun I've had, there is still something that bothers me about my job ... Some of you folks don't understand why I'm there. Some of you think I'm there to exert authority over your son or daughter. For that reason, you often yell at me when I make a mistake, or encourage your son or daughter to say things that hurt my feelings. How many of you really understand that I try to be perfect? I try not to make a mistake. I don't want your child to feel that he got a bad deal from an umpire.

Yet no matter how hard I try, I can't be perfect. I counted the number of calls I made in a six inning game today. The total number of decisions, whether on balls or strikes or safes or outs was 146. I tried my best to get them all right, but I'm sure I missed some. When I figured out my percentage on paper, I could have missed eight calls today and still got about 95 percent of the calls right! In most occupations that percentage would be considered excellent. In school that grade would receive an "A" for sure.

But your demands are higher than that. Let me tell you more about my game today. There was one real close call that ended the game. A runner for the home team was trying to steal home on a passed ball. The catcher chased the ball down and threw it to the pitcher covering the plate. The pitcher made the tag and I called the runner out. As I was getting my equipment to leave, I overheard one of the parents comments: "It's too bad the kids have to lose because of rotten umpires. That was one of the lousiest calls I've ever seen." Later at the concession stand a couple of kids were telling their friends, " Boy, the umpires were lousy today; they lost the game for us."

The purpose of Little League is to teach baseball skills to young people. Obviously, a team that does not play well in a given game, yet is given the opportunity to blame that lose on an umpire for one call or two, is being given the chance to take all responsibility for the loss from its shoulders.

A parent or Adult leader who permits the young player to blame his or her failures on an umpire, regardless of the quality of that umpire, is doing the worst kind of injustice to that youngster. Rather than learning responsibility, such an attitude fosters an improper outlook towards the ideals of the game itself. The irresponsibility is bound to carry over to future years.

As I sit her writing this letter, I am no longer as upset as I was this afternoon. I wanted to quit umpiring. but fortunately, my wife reminded me of another situation that occurred last week. I was behind the plate umpiring for a pitcher who pantomimed his displeasure at any call or borderline pitch that wasn' t in his team's favor. One could sense that he wanted the crowd to realize that he was a fine, talented player who was doing his best to get along and that I was the villain working against him.

The kid proceeded in this vein for two innings, while at the same time also yelling at his own players who dared to make a mistake. For two innings the Manager watched this and when the boy returned to the dugout to bat in the top of the third, the manager called him aside.

In a loud enough voice that I was able to overhear, the lecture went like this, "Listen, son, it's time you made a decision. You can be an umpire, or an actor, or a pitcher. But you can be only one at a time when you are playing for me. Right now it's your job to pitch and you are basically doing a lousy job. Leave the acting to the actors and the umpiring to the umpires. Now what's it going to be?"

The kid chose the pitching route and went on to win the game. When the game was over, the kid followed me to my car. Fighting his hardest to keep back the tears, he apologized for his actions and thanked me for umpiring his game. He said he had learned a lesson that he would never forget.

I can not help but wonder; how many fine young men are missing their chance to develop into outstanding ballplayers because their parents encourage them to spend time umpiring, rather than working harder to play the game as it should be played.

The following morning, Donald Jenson died of a brain concussion ....

quote:

Originally posted by T-Bird Dad:
The game has never been about making mistakes...it is about reducing them and dealing with them.

That is the most impressive statement I have read on this forum.

Thanks T-Bird.

Whats up Gut, you should be working. Don't forget about the 2023 Area Code Tryouts.

First off, I agree with 90% of your post Lynn. But, and there is always a but....

What the Colleyville mother said was harsh and uncalled for. But to lump such an extreme example in with questioning whether the coach made the right decision to bunt, to pull a pitcher or to use a certain DH is not the same.

It's part of the game. And to tell you the truth, it is what makes the games more interesting. Heck, there is even a lexicon in our language, Monday morning quarterback, that comes from that very nature of questioning coaches decisions. (Actually, it comes from way back when when the quarterbacks used to actually call the plays on the field, but I digress)

Questioning authority, in this case coaches, is what makes our nation great. We do so from such mundane things as HS or summer sports, to actually questioning the President of the United States and his day to day decisions. To come out and say that is what is bad about the game is untrue.

I question authority, be it my boss, the Mayor of Keller all the way to the President. Somewhere in there I question the coaches that my son plays for. Did he make the right decision there? Why didn't he bunt when down by one with runners on 2nd and third with one out?

And yes, it's healthy to do so. I think your post makes some great points, but you also have to understand that it is part of society. It's a healthy part of society. Without it, you have Cuba or the former USSR, where they didn't allow you to question anybody in authority.

And this is meant as no disrespect, but this is America. And one of the things that make it great is I don't have to have a PhD from Yale to question the President of the United States and I don't have to had played College Ball to question a High School Coach. We don't have a Class based society where only certain people can question the decisions of people in charge.

Thank God for that.

Vanlandingham..........If you like it or not. You have gained a friend for life. OUTSTANDING WORDS!!

Good post, KD.

As usual, there is a middle ground.

Just because someone like KD may question a coach's move doesn't mean that they are failing to teach their son individual responsibility.

quote:

Originally posted by KellerDad:
First off, I agree with 90% of your post Lynn. But, and there is always a but....

What the Colleyville mother said was harsh and uncalled for. But to lump such an extreme example in with questioning whether the coach made the right decision to bunt, to pull a pitcher or to use a certain DH is not the same.

It's part of the game. And to tell you the truth, it is what makes the games more interesting. Heck, there is even a lexicon in our language, Monday morning quarterback, that comes from that very nature of questioning coaches decisions. (Actually, it comes from way back when when the quarterbacks used to actually call the plays on the field, but I digress)

Questioning authority, in this case coaches, is what makes our nation great. We do so from such mundane things as HS or summer sports, to actually questioning the President of the United States and his day to day decisions. To come out and say that is what is bad about the game is untrue.

I question authority, be it my boss, the Mayor of Keller all the way to the President. Somewhere in there I question the coaches that my son plays for. Did he make the right decision there? Why didn't he bunt when down by one with runners on 2nd and third with one out?

And yes, it's healthy to do so. I think your post makes some great points, but you also have to understand that it is part of society. It's a healthy part of society. Without it, you have Cuba or the former USSR, where they didn't allow you to question anybody in authority.

And this is meant as no disrespect, but this is America. And one of the things that make it great is I don't have to have a PhD from Yale to question the President of the United States and I don't have to had played College Ball to question a High School Coach. We don't have a Class based society where only certain people can question the decisions of people in charge.

Thank God for that.

I could not disagree more.

I guess I have the right to make that choice though don't I.

Vanlandingham,
I agree with most of your post but am curious if you have the same view when it comes to summer ball when you can choose where to play.

quote:

Originally posted by SWAC:
Whats up Gut, you should be working. Don't forget about the 2023 Area Code Tryouts.

2023 Area Codes? By then there will be something better than that.......

Somewhere a kid can go, throw 1 pitch or get 1 swing in front of 1,000,000 scouts.

It will be called the "Nationwide Plan".

By the way, check your PM box.

H & U - I am not sure I understand your question. Please give me more clarity.

Ken, check your PM.

Vanlandingham,
I was leaving the forum to take a break from all of what you described as "second guessing".
Till your post. I will hang around a little longer now and hope that the "Shift the Blame attitude" will subside. Truth is that if a team makes the playoffs it's a great accomplishment. Roughly 60% don't make the post season. No one is ever happy these days.
Thanks for putting what alot of us are thinking in words.

Vanlandingham,
Would you Choose to leave your son on a summer team for 4 years that was coached by someone who you disagreed with their basic coaching philosophy to teach him adversity? If not then why shouldn't parents have the right to question coaches, as long as it is done constructively, when they don't have the option to move to another high school team if not in agreement with the respective coach?

KD - I respect your opinion. But, and there is always a but.

I can give 100 examples of what I am talking about from this year and 10% of them are as extreme as the one I gave here. And that is probably as conservative as a Yale PHD that is President. Opinions are fine, but why the need to voice them over and over unless it is to defame somebody. If you had a group of 20 people that came to your office everyday and criticized 10% of what you did that day, how would you feel about it? Would you say, thanks for your input please feel free to contribute again tomorrow and the next day and the next day and the next day? My point is not to create a communist regime that only allows s****r. My point is that the joy of watching your kids play the greatest sport on earth is overshadowed by the injustices of a coach or umpire or opposing pitcher or whatever.

Also, my only point of reference is how things are today versus when I played in high school. I know it is a different time but I don't see how things should be so different. Did technology change parent and fan behavior?

Furthermore, I don't think Thomas Jefferson and the boys wrote the Declaration of Independence to entitle all Americans to ***** and moan at every opportunity. Is that the American way?

SWAC - thanks for sharing that story.... I had not seen it and it makes some great points.

quote:

Originally posted by Vanlandingham:

Also, my only point of reference is how things are today versus when I played in high school. I know it is a different time but I don't see how things should be so different. Did technology change parent and fan behavior?

It's the generation of supreme knowledge without experience.

quote:

Vanlandingham,
Would you Choose to leave your son on a summer team for 4 years that was coached by someone who you disagreed with their basic coaching philosophy to teach him adversity? If not then why shouldn't parents have the right to question coaches, as long as it is done constructively, when they don't have the option to move to another high school team if not in agreement with the respective coach?

No, not if I disagreed with his philosophy. But is it philosophy or because little Johnny is not playing shortstop and hitting in the 3 hole? In summer ball, you are paying to play. If you do not like how your money is being spent, then spend it somewhere else. Spend it somewhere else after you complete your commitment.

How often is it done constructively? Constructively would be one on one with the opportunity to explain, defend and refute. That doesn't happen very often. It is mostly done behind the scenes and behind a disguise and that is cowardly. Coach Stinson and Coach English are not going to come on here and defend themselves. Play the hand you are dealt in regards to high school baseball or move. Those are your choices. How is complaining and second guessing going to improve the current situation? Hope that answered your questions.

H&U,

You do have options, such as relocating or private school.

However, I truly believe mature much faster if they have to deal with obstacles during their youth. There are no perfect coaches and teammates and equipment and girlfiends and co-workers and spouses (except mine ).

The whole object is to be successful despite the difficulties presented, not by avoiding them because you run into three more every time you avoid one.

I agree with Vanlandingham 100% - kids nowadays are being turned into pu@#$y's by their parents who blame the coach or umpire for whatever misfortunes arise on the playing fields.

Parents - I have one word of caution for those of you who dream of having your son play D-1 college baseball or professional baseball - you are doing your son's ZERO favor by constant criticising and blaming of the coaches. I can promise you that if your son is lucky enough to play ball in college you will have ZERO influence with his college coach - he will have to make it on his own. I know this from first hand experience with an older son playing college football. Coach Bobby Ross does not take calls from parents complaining about playing time, positions on the field, etc.

Teach these high school boys how to be MEN before they get to college so they don't have to learn to take care of themselves. That's how it was done back in the day. For some reason we pamper these kids like they are a bunch of prima donnas and then we wonder why they ACT like a bunch of prima donnas.

quote:

Originally posted by crawdad:
- kids nowadays are being turned into pu@#$y's

Yeah........I agree with what he said.

I'd like you to say that to my son's face crawdad or Ken, you might get a different answer from him.

Middle ground... Middle ground...

Absolutely kids need to learn individual responsibility.

But a little Monday morning QB'ing has been part of sports since sports began. That is not new. There doesn't need to be a lot of it. And it doesn't need to be damaging. But it has been around forever.

Personally, I reached the point some time ago where I don't worry much about who wins the game. {Maybe I'm subcosciously trying to make up for my days of playing sports. I was as competitive as they come back then. Too much so at times.}

If the team does their best, let the chips fall where they may. Now that I am just a parent, I admit that my main concern is that Texan son does his best.

The blues are going to make mistakes. And there is going to be some bad umpiring. I just hope it is consistent umpiring. The team should play well enough to overcome it.

The players are going to make mistakes. Part of the game. Hopefully they learn from the experience.

The coach is going to make mistakes. I made mistakes when I coached. Heck, I even started having an assistant coaching third because they could do a better job.

As long as a coach is honest with the kids and treats them halfway fair, he & I won't have any issues.

Seems like good coaches don't have much problem with second guessing, regardless of their W-L record. But maybe that is just my experience.

Vanlandingham,
Thanks for the insight. That's the answer I expected.

For the record, I have never complained to any high school or summer coach about where my little Johnny plays. That is something that is between little Johnny and his coach and their problem to work out if there is one. Also I have no personal problems with the FM coach at all.

I do think that adults have the right to discuss game decisions, strategy, philosophy, etc. in any forum that they choose however, as long at the personal attacks are left out.

Concerning moving, that is out of the question no matter who the FM coach is. The opportunity to play in the same district with Train and his Cowboys next year is too much to pass up

The Flower Mound baseball team got to where they did not by being pu@#$y's but by being mature men and taking things into their own hands. They had optional practices, sometimes taking aditional batting practice when they had just finished regular practice. When they had problems that they felt needed addressed, they got together as a team and ironed them out. This all done on their own, not with parents or coaches holding their hands. There were many that expected this group not to get very far and boy did our boys show them. When they were down,they battled back and all of this on their own. So unless you have a son on the team and know first hand all that went on, I respectfully ask that you give these young men the credit they are do. Stop doing as those who are critical of our coach and instead of blaming him you fault us as parents for not allowing them to handle it on their own. Because I for one am extremely proud of my son and teammates and what they have accomplished on and off the field.

Brief summary of my baseball experiences as a father of one son:

T-ball to modified coach pitch years: Coach and know-it-all baseball Dad. Argued constantly with 12 to 16 yo umps. Pushed son and wife and some others to tears after some games.

8 to 11yo rec years: Thought I was teaching him how to pitch. Drove him as hard as a salt flat mule. Stayed up nights with other Dads to strategize opponents. Called league directors to B**ch. Lucky to never be ejected from game.

12 to present: Decided to turn him over to other coaches before I beat the love of the game out of him. Dropped my comments to umps by 90%. Stopped all comments to him while he is on the field.

I have enjoyed watching him now more than I ever have. Yes I still tell him he could hustle more, work harder, make better choices, etc... all while on the ride back home.

I have learned to accept his performance for what it is, the umps for who they are, and the coaches for the dedicated men they are.

I'm not the best, there is always room for improvement (ask my wife!) but as my Pappy always said "You can put your boots in the oven, but that don't make 'em bisquits"

I don't know that fits in here, but I just couldn't resist.

quote:

Originally posted by AdultOpinion:
Brief summary of my baseball experiences as a father of one son:

T-ball to modified coach pitch years: Coach and know-it-all baseball Dad. Argued constantly with 12 to 16 yo umps. Pushed son and wife and some others to tears after some games.

8 to 11yo rec years: Thought I was teaching him how to pitch. Drove him as hard as a salt flat mule. Stayed up nights with other Dads to strategize opponents. Called league directors to B**ch. Lucky to never be ejected from game.

12 to present: Decided to turn him over to other coaches before I beat the love of the game out of him. Dropped my comments to umps by 90%. Stopped all comments to him while he is on the field.

I have enjoyed watching him now more than I ever have. Yes I still tell him he could hustle more, work harder, make better choices, etc... all while on the ride back home.

I have learned to accept his performance for what it is, the umps for who they are, and the coaches for the dedicated men they are.

I'm not the best, there is always room for improvement (ask my wife!) but as my Pappy always said "You can put your boots in the oven, but that don't make 'em bisquits"

I don't know how that fits in here, but I just couldn't resist.

NRPMom,
I have a son on the FM team as you know, and couldn't agree with you more. Any personal bashing of coaches on this team or any other for that matter is uncalled for IMO. I didnt always agree with what happened on the field but heck, I don't even agree with what I think sometimes 2 minutes after I thought it.

I also am proud of what these young men accomplished this year. I truly think that they are a fine example of the word TEAM. Maybe we as adults can learn from our kids every once in awhile.

I think an obviously bad call can show a lot about the team and coach. I'm sure everyone here has heard that a team takes on the personality of its coach, and I believe it to an extent. Meaning, if a coach is a cry baby (haven't seen a coach like this but for the sake of explaining) I doubt the team becomes a bunch of cry babies. The reaction of a team after a bad call says a lot about the coach and the team. Lets say there is an obvious bad call, I, as a player, want my coach out there arguing the call. For me it doesn't show that he's wanting excuses but that he cares... a lot. The team also can get mad, but only to an extent. After the debate is over, this is when the character of the team can show. If the team folds and lets the call hurt them, then they are mentally weak. If the team rallies around their coaches display of committment to the team, and uses the anger for positive energy, then the team is stubborn-in a good way. I'd like to say my team is very stubborn, but each year can bring new things and i'm yet to see.

Vanlandingham, well said, very clear minded, i commend you!

People, Coaches are coaches at any level. They will play favorites for whatever reason, (politics for the most part in highschool) and/or they do what they think is best for the club. they dont intentially "screw" kids over. thats not what they trying to do, it may seem like that a lot of times, but they arent. some kids dont have the talent, some dont have the motivation, and some dont do good when its there time to shine. Its all about opertunity and how you do under the spot light. In big programs, a lot of kids choke or get nerous in small situations because it potentially could be their first and their last chance of the season. Parents will complain because there kid doesnt get as much PT as cal ripkin in the 90's, but in the end its all relevant. Dont get your self down, and parents dont get down on the kids or the coaches! thats all i have to say about that!

H & U - I can tell by the way your kid conducts himself on the field that you are supportive and handle things the right way. Your Johnny deserves to be in the 3 hole. I disagree with coaching decisions all the time based upon what I would do. But, that is a philosophy thing and not that the individual is a bad coach. Example, I watched Linty Ingram walk my 3 hole hitter to get to Mike Marshall last summer. Mike hits a double play ball and they are out of the inning. If he hits one in the street then is Linty a goat? I would never have done that, but that is baseball. Another example is I watched McDougal hold DeLeo for game 3 this weekend. My philosophy is to throw the best available. It worked for him and that is baseball. Point being, it is right if it works and wrong if it doesn't. THAT'S BASEBALL!

Vanlandingham,
I would say that 99.99 percent of my disagreements with coaches over the years has been a philosophy thing too. Heck, I even disagreed with the head coach at times on a team that I was the assistant on. He was not always right and neither was I.

What I did learn from the experience was that no matter what the game philosophy was, he always had the best interests of the kids in mind. In the grand scheme of things, I think that is all you can ask for. I learned a lot from him and gained a lot of respect for him as a man, friend, and father to his sons.

You are right, it is right if it works and wrong if it doesn't.

Concerning Linty, he probably owes Mike a drink when he is old enough, to pay him back for helping out of that obvious coaching blunder