The Talent it Takes to 2nd Guess

quote:

Originally posted by KellerDad:
I'd like you to say that to my son's face crawdad or Ken, you might get a different answer from him.

I hope you taught him not to cross the line in the sand unless you mean it.

Concerning Linty, that is my point. I know your are kidding, but the casual observer would think that is a blunder. But, my 3 hole hitter, Jacob House, had hit the ball well against the Tigers for 2 years and hit the ball hard that night in his 2 previous at bats. Linty knows his team and mine and made a baseball decision that worked. Without that experience, how would you know that percentage-wise this is a good decision? Joe Daddy walks up and sees an intentional walk to get to Marshall and says this guy is an idiot. He hit 3 home runs in that same tournament at UTA and 2 of them landed over the street. I just have a hard time seeing Coach Stinson not being a good coach. I know he had the best pitching staff in the world last year, but so did DBAT and so did the 88 Athletics. It's just baseball. Great teams lose. Deal with it or play football where the best wins 99% of the time.

VL,
I think you may have hit the nail on the head with the "Casual Observer" comment. Maybe the problem here is that most parents don't consider themselves as casual observers when they should.

By the way, any comment concerning last years pitching staff is off limits. If you mention it again I will have to talk to PD about sensoring or removing your posts

quote:

I think you may have hit the nail on the head with the "Casual Observer" comment. Maybe the problem here is that most parents don't consider themselves as casual observers when they should.

You said it. I didn't.

Guys, this is a great discussion --- with many of my favorites posters. There are conflicting ideas, but calm deneanor. And many of you confirmed the ideas that I tried to convey earlier --- if a move works, it's a good move....if it fails, it's a bad move -- right?

One thing though that bothers me a little about this discussion is a tone that parents are idiots because they can't "speak from experience". What kind of....stuff....is that? Do you guys seriously believe that you have to have played baseball to comment on it? If so, what level is high enough to qualify a person to contribute? College ball? D1 college ball? Pro ball?

Coach V and KG -- I always enjoy your posts. We agree on most of this issue....but I gave up the game after my senior year in HS. My oldest played DIII, my middle son played D1 JUCO, my youngest just finished his sophomore year. Am I in the "generation of supreme knowledge without experience"? <-- the comment sounds rather elitist.

I do not publicly criticize my son's coaches (HS or summer). I did not openly criticize Coach English when he coached at East (or now for that matter). Do I always agree with them? YES! (HA!).......Of course there is an appropriate way to handle differences of opinion --- and I don't suggest it be done here. I have generally supported coaches except perhaps in areas where their teams behave poorly. But not everyone witnessed the recent games -- and some are interested in more than the final score.

When I coached, I made a ton of mistakes --- still make many as a dad and fan, I'm sure. In this discussion, I don't think there is an absolute right and wrong. Texan suggested a middle ground, which is probably closest to the truth. In any case, keep the opinions flowing. Swingdoc -- don't you dare run and hide --- we need you to contribute.

-PD

'Casual Observer". Yep, now that's me, just a casual observer.........

Yeah, well I see you started observing the day before I did!

First of all I don't know why KD thinks I am calling his son a pu#$$y???. I did not realize this post was about anyone in particular or any team specifically - just baseball players and their parents in general. Maybe I missed the point of the original post.

Anyway I work in the oilfields so I may be a little rough around the edges. That's how we roll out here.

I still maintain that today's kids are pu#$$&fied too much for my taste. Just my humble opinion. I'll take another vacation for a few weeks.

I don't believe I stated or infered parents are idiots. There are idiot parents just as there are idiot baseball guys. It's the trend that frustrates me. I watched 9 year olds yesterday in McKinney forfeit a game because of unruly fans. The fans got 3 warnings and had 2 coaches ejected because of the fans. The 2nd coach bumped the umpire. Gee, I wonder why we can't find quality umpires. Any ideas?

quote:

Am I in the "generation of supreme knowledge without experience"? <-- the comment sounds rather elitist.

-PD

Maybe so, but the facts are still the facts.

Would you accept my opinions on parenthood 5 years ago or even now? I have no experience.

Why should someone who has been there accept the opinions of someone who has not?

Have you ever seen a baseball manager in the big leagues that was a CEO of a major company before his tenure?

Nope.

Some people have 20 years experience. Others have one years experience twenty times.

Some people are students of the game and are highly knowledgeable, even if their playing days ended before they could ever set foot on an MLB field.

Some who did play the game under the bright lights have little understanding of the game outside their little area and can't teach it to save their lives. I have heard more idiot sayings come from the mouths of McCarver and Morgan...

Had experience always been a prerequisite, KG, would we ever have landed on the moon? Nope.

Enough of the useless generalizations.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:

I have heard more idiot sayings come from the mouths of McCarver and Morgan...

But you would rather have one of those two coaching your son or me?

I would bet on they Hall of Famers.

I'd take you Ken, but you'd have to play my son and win, or I'd start b+*%$in'

Thank goodness we're not talking politics, religon, or parenting. Then some real opinions would fly!!

quote:

Had experience always been a prerequisite, KG, would we ever have landed on the moon? Nope

Yeah, but were there any accountants, attorneys or homebuilders on that space ship? No, I think they were astronauts.

PD - I don't question anyone's right to comment on it. It's the constant bitching and moaning that never ends. It's questioning every decision made. That is not commenting on baseball. That's like me making an opening statement in a capital murder case. Sorry, I was trying to be as extreme as the landing on the moon deal.

I don't necessarily think kids are any softer than they used to be. I think the thing that has changed is the parents (and eventually their kids) lack of respect for the coaches, teachers, etc., that have their kids each day.

I am not advocating that we not monitor teachers and coaches, we absolutely should. However, we seem to want to get our children out of any possibly dilema, regardless of whether they put themselves in the mess or not. We refuse to allow our kids to be accountable.

We want English teachers to give little Johnny a couple of points so he can pass and play football Friday night.

Even though little Johnny told his teacher to shut the f$&@ up, he shouldn't get detention because he might miss practice.

We don't want anyone to think our daughter isn't good enough, so we will have 45 cheerleaders make the team instead of cutting some of them (sorry SLC fans, I couldn't resist ).

Therefore, parents feel they are part of the process in much more significant ways than they should be.

Bottom line, we need to allow our kids to fail some...that is how they learn. It hurts as a parent to do that, but they learn the tough lessons (sitting the bench, getting cut from the team, failing a class because there was not enough effort, etc.) that way. And perhaps the parents would be less inclined to complain about coaches, umpires, teachers, etc., because they know their child is accountable for his/her own life...no excuses.

Amen Brother!!!!!!

Now Go to Bed.

Heart Broken my Spurs lost tonight. I can handle losing to Avery, but hate to see Cuban rewarded for, well being Cuban. He is a great example to our children. So he made a fist he barely hit him. Once again, no accountability. I really am happy for Dirk and Avery. Dirk is a classy guy and Avery led us to our first Championship in '99.

Spoken like a true Spurs fan. I'm thrilled for AJ and happy for the players, but sad that the Dallas fans who bad-mouthed Kevin Finley are getting rewarded for their pitiful behavior. If Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Manu or anyone else ever got traded, I can guarantee that we would never bad-mouth them in a million years -- no matter who they played for. We love our guys to the end.

How about this Ken. Not a Manager, but a GM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Daniels

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_Epstein


And to think, "baseball guys" said just a few years ago that you needed to be a "baseball guy" to be a GM.

In the past few decades we've had a Peanut Farmer and a B Movie star as a President. The Governor of California is a A List Movie actor. The CEO of the largest tech company in the world is a college dropout.

But I have to be a baseball guy to comment on baseball? Elitist isn't the word.

So, do you also have to be an ex contractor to sell concrete?

Whoa, Whoa, Whoa

It's not commenting on baseball that led me to start this. It is second guessing constantly. Good examples of GM's that did not play Major League Baseball but that is not unique. The NBA and NFL are full of GM's that did not play. What would it look like though if Jon and Theo were constantly questioning pitching rotation, bunt situations, substitutions and lineups? Furthermore, if those guys do question on field decisions it is done one on one and not publicly. At least I have never heard Daniel or Epstein call out Showalter or Francona. I myself have a raised eyebrow about certain things done on the field and you know nobody can get in an umpires kitchen faster than me. But the constant second guessing is not good for anybody nor is it good for the game. We may have to agree to disagree and that is OK. But if I coach again, the rules will be clear and unruly behavior will not be part my club. Factions of dads or moms in the stands questioning everything that goes on will not be a part of my club. If they can't handle that then I will wish them the best of luck somewhere else. That's all, nothing vendictive nor malicious, just matter of fact.

Kellerdad,

I think Lynn answered your questions for me.

Like I said before, you can call me an arrogant a-hole, but until you have actually any experience in the game I cannot accept any critique or comments on managing or other aspects of the game.

Again, not trying to be rude, just the way I feel. I think we have gone down this road before on another thread.

Hey Lynn, as far as your rules for your future team, they suck. I would never put my child in a situation like that. He knows how to handle himself without someone besides me making decisions. I pay you to teach baseball, not be a parent. So basically, I will take my money elsewhere.

Another team gets another cancer, and life goes on forever and the party never ends.

And this is a discussion board -- who said anything about it being ok to be unruly? There should CERTAINLY be rules of conduct for players AND parents. I'm with ya!

Ken -- I hope you had a few ideas concerning parenthood before you actually became a parent. I've been one for 24+ years now.....and I still need advice.

I suppose you evaded the question about who is qualified to contribute to baseball discussions --- at least from your viewpoint. There is no question that most people here (or on any message board) have not been to the big leagues. But you have not coached HS or college baseball, and still have opinions in those areas.

Don't get me wrong here -- I agree that there is MUCH TOO MUCH complaining, second-guessing, & behind-the-scenes coach-criticizing. Concerning umps or refs, you don't have to be 7' tall or an NBA player to recognize bad calls. Comparing their "jobs" to those in the private sector is a poor analogy, IMO.

Peace!

NRP MOM, I wanta meet you!

Let me give an example of something I witnessed this weekend.

Situation is this: Runners on first and third with one out.

Philosophy 1:
On a ground ball the runner at third waits until the fielder starts the double play before heading home.

Philosophy 2:
On a ground ball the runner at third goes on contact regardless of where the ball is hit.

What happened: The ball was hit back to the pitcher and the runner from third was thrown out at the plate.

Now, I have no problem with this because you still have a runner in scoring position with 2 outs. He is not at third, but still in scoring position. Since the catcher had been good as a backstop and pitcher has been around the plate, the liklihood of a wild pitch or passed ball was minimal.

Even though normally I would subscribe to the first philosophy, I understand philosophy 2 as well.

Now after this happened I had 2 fathers say 2 different things to me.

1st Father: Why would you send him in that situation? Good question and this guy is seeking clarity. I am ok with that.

2nd Father: WHAT IS HE DOING? WHY IS HE SENDING HIM ON BALL HIT TO THE PITCHER. I CANT BELIEVE HE WOULD DO THAT. COME ON!

Do you think this father knows both philosophies? Or do you think he is second guessing without knowledge of the game? For younger kids, what do you think little Johnny hears on the way home from the man he admires most? What impact will that have on his outlook on the coach? What impact will that have on the team?

Just Questions.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
Kellerdad,

Like I said before, you can call me an arrogant a-hole, but until you have actually any experience in the game I cannot accept any critique or comments on managing or other aspects of the game.

I pity your life. Imagine going through life and not being able to have an opinion except for coaching youth baseball, bullpen catching and concrete! (your rules, not mine!)

One of the most successful and best coaches I've met states often that he learns something everyday; from his players, from their parents, from coaches working their craft at higher levels and from coaches he competes against. Oh, I forgot, he never played in the minor leagues so he shouldn't express his opinion!

quote:

Originally posted by Vanlandingham:

Do you think this father knows both philosophies? Or do you think he is second guessing without knowledge of the game? For younger kids, what do you think little Johnny hears on the way home from the man he admires most? What impact will that have on his outlook on the coach? What impact will that have on the team?

Just Questions.

LV,
I remember the play and I think it matched the pretty aggressive base running philosophy that was being used on Saturday. There are also other factors that play into it, like the speed of the runner and who's on deck.

You hit the nail on the head. Father #2 probably is clueless as to the "go on contact" play and always blames a coach. I hope you explained it to him! Father #1 probably has a better understanding of the game of baseball.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:

I have heard more idiot sayings come from the mouths of McCarver and Morgan...

But you would rather have one of those two coaching your son or me?

I would bet on they Hall of Famers.

You read me wrong. Based on what I know of you from this board, I would rather have you managing the team. Choose between a team managed by Morgan and a DBAT team (you can pay me for that later, PD), and I'll choose DBAT for my son.

A few lessons at playing 2B from Morgan? Worth a try. But to coach day in & day out? I'll take my chances with those who have proven they are good at coaching youth ball.

I'm sorry, but I've seen a lot of former pros who can't coach youth ball worth anything. Yes, they possessed a gift. But I think often they don't really know what it was that made them good.

quote:

Originally posted by Vanlandingham:
Yeah, but were there any accountants, attorneys or homebuilders on that space ship? No, I think they were astronauts.

Nonetheless, not one of those guys had ever set foot on the moon before.

I know a gentleman who has never built a bridge in his life. Not even a civil engineering degree. Has never designed one in his life to my knowledge. But any bridge he designed I'd walk out on in a heartbeat. One of the most intelligent people I have ever met. He's retired, but still learns more in a week than most do in a decade.

The best pitching coach I have ever seen signed out of HS, but never threw once on an MLB field. Cut short by injury.

Sorry, but I don't accept the generalization - in either direction. I have seen it proven wrong too many teams. If you believe otherwise, fine. But I think if you remain openminded and observant, you may change your opinion as you get older.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

You're talking of the exceptions and I am talking about the rule. How old do I need to be? I am 40 and have a 17, 15 and 10 year old. Whatever, you guys are right and I am wrong.

Next Topic

What??? You can't possibly be qualified to comment in threads like this if you are less than 40!

quote:

I pity your life.

I agree with Lynn.

I am wrong, you are right. Next topic.

Unless in your near future you strap on a jock strap and have to put your paycheck on the line with your baseball abilities or having a gut check in a pressure situation.

LV,

I agree that the tone of the conversations you had with Dad #1 and #2 has much to do with this as well.

There have been many times I have stood at my kids' games and discussed strategy with the other dads. We might discuss what the coach might do in a certain situation or toss around ideas about the batting order. We do it in a low level conversation and it does not become a public specticle.

I love the fact that you lay out rules for your team. Any questions regarding how you are coaching should be handled in private and off-line...not as a lynch mob in the stands. Unless he is inappropriate or dangerous with the players, any coach deserves that.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
Kellerdad,


Like I said before, you can call me an arrogant a-hole, but;

I agree.
You are right I am wrong.
Next topic.

How about those Mavs???

Anybody else ready for the select season to start?

I thought they played great...but what do I know?

quote:

Originally posted by momandcpa:
How about those Mavs???

Best series I have ever watched. Sorry Lynn, but the good guys won.

Vance34

Come out to Flower Mound or visit a DBAT game this summer, I'll be there.

I knew the discussion would end this way.

Vance,

You are no match for these baseball moms.

On any field.




PD, their momma didn't teach them the rule about "keeping their mouth shut and being thought a fool instead of opening their mouth and removing all doubt."

And, sometimes, I forget.........

We start this weekend in Euless. Looking forward to the summer!