"The Truth About The Academies"

Holy smokes, how embarrassingly naive can a sister be? A little too much information from plebes female relatives, imo. I'm not convinced the only reason Jr. didn't hang on the phone listening to them jibber jabber, was that he wasn't permitted. Uh yeah, it is the military. It doesn't cost money but it ain't free, sis. Somebody please pat her on the head and take away her internet access until she reaches age 12 maturity level.

I have a very close friend who's 2 boys went to the academy's and now there are a few of my son's friends there. This sounds like something a Columbia student would write. Well written but not the true picture.
This will turn into an anti-war debate soon so get ready. Those of us on this board for the most part have children aspireing to attend college and play baseball. Many others don't have these options nor can they afford an education and opt for our military. To do so while trying to compete athletically and attend an acacemy is special.

Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines... Let God watch over you.

I personally think that the article is ridiculous. No one "signs up" for an academy just to enjoy the study sessions and seminars and academic programs. People at the academies get the top notch education but the objective is simple and is laid out in the article, they prepare you to defend the country. That's why they are federally funded military academies. If you don't know what you are getting into at an academy, you are ignorant and probably don't belong there. An academy education is one of the most respected degrees anywhere and the pride and honor of representing your country is second to none. If you don't like it, don't do it. But don't complain about it.

My only reply is the article is an example of how liberal educational institutions can have a negative effect on young adults. Be open minded, but not so open minded your brains leak out.

Columbia - This is the same school that did the following:

They got their band - which plays at all sporting events - to come to a Football game at Fordham University in 2002.

The band leader - with his troupe in tow - then proceeded to make jokes and lead his band in chants for the halftime show. The band's leader was a psycho named Andy Hao.
He got some publicity out of it and even got an appearance on the Phil Donahue show for his disgusting and demented efforts.

The chants centered around the sexual abuse of young kids by priests. They did this at Fordham University - a Jesuit school - and they had a blast.

That is all you need to know about Columbia University and its leadership.

cadDAD,

I'm not sure that Ms. Leppla disagrees with the Academy's reason to exist. It sounded more like she was saying: If you or your relative or friend commits to the Academy, make sure that you understand that you don't commit to the Academy for the education, you commit to becoming an officer (the education being one component of becoming an officer).

Isn't this similar to what we tell our hs baseball players?: When you choose a college, make sure it is a place that you would want to be, even if, for some reason you couldn't play baseball. The education may serve you well, long after you no longer play baseball, so make sure that the fit is good for the education, as well as for the athletics. Make sure that it is a good fit as a college first, then, find out all that you can about the coaches, the team, the fit, before you sign that letter. Make sure that you understand the commitment you make, if you do play baseball at college, and what toll it may take on your social life, academic goals, opportunity for internships, junior year abroad, etc. (Isn't there a recent thread on here about coaches asking players to take easier courses or majors?)

It sounds like this young man made a choice based on what he was looking for as the next step in his life. It doesn't sound like his sister and mother understood what he was looking for. The author didn't say that her brother was the one who wanted her to try to get him released, nor does she say how he felt about her attempts to get him released.

To me, it sounded as if the author was giving very good advice: Make sure that you understand the commitments that you make. But someone should have told her: Make sure that you respect the commitments that other people make.

The author could benefit from some HSBBW advice: As much as we might like to direct our son/daughter, sister/brother, friend to take the next step in their life the way that we want them to take it, it is their step to take. It is their talent, commitment, sweat equity, that will take them to the next level. We can help guide them, inform them, support them, but it is ultimately their choice. They have to do the work, they have to produce, they have to have the talent. They have to want it.

Maybe the author was naive. I know that we were naive when our son started on his journey. We knew nothing about playing baseball in college. Our college experience did not include baseball. It was only through watching him go through the process that we came to understand the opportunities that were available to him and the decisions that he made. We learned a lot about colleges and college baseball, but we learned even more about him. We don't know exactly what his college baseball experience will be, but we are comfortable that he asked the right questions of the school, of the coaches, of himself, and we respect his ability to weigh the information and make an intelligent decision.

There are no guarantees, however. There is always the chance that, despite best efforts and due diligence, the fit does not end up working. That can happen when it is only the decision about which college to attend. Add in a sport, the military, or both, and I would think that the chances for miscalculation (on everyone's part) increase exponentially.

Maybe this young man's family kept themselves naive because they didn't want to face the reality of the choice that he was making. Maybe it was easier to blame the Academy for their feeling of loss, for their mourning, rather than to accept and respect his opportunities and choices even though they were not ones that they would have wanted for him. Maybe they did not believe that he was capable of an informed and intelligent decision.

I do feel sorry for this young woman. She may be missing the opportunity to learn a lot about her brother. She may be missing the opportunity to be proud of who her brother is. The Academy must have seen something in this young man that made them think that he had what it would take to succeed at the Academy. The Academy does not need to lure unsuspecting candidates. They have many more qualified candidates than places.

But, this is all speculation on my part. cadDAD, you can better speak to what goes into considering an application to the Academies. Can you shed any light on how a family might go through this process? How do the expectations match up to the reality? Is it abnormal for a family to have such feelings of loss and mourning? Do many candidates try to get out of their commitment?

Respectfully,
P&C mom

I truly believe that the academies are not schools per se but that they are a way of life or a calling. You can go into a crowd of 1000 and pick out quite a few people who could make it in a college or university but out of that crowd of 1000 you might find one who will thrive in the academy setting. It takes a special person to choose and succeed at those places.

Someone in the other thread said we need to have mandatory military service in order to teach our young generation about the ideals we have seem to have lost. I agree with him to a certain degree - we need to find ways to teach those ideals but I don't think mandatory military service is it. The reason why we have the strongest / best military in the world is that our soldiers choose that path in life. We have a volunteer army and those who join do so because they have a desire to be there. Yes I realize some people choose military because it is a way for them to get their college paid for or other reasons but it's still a choice.

Now that we have a large number of people who are choosing to defend our way of life we need the best leaders and that is where the academies come in. Those who succeed in the academies are the best of the best of the best. These are not men and women who cannot be relied upon because they have our freedom and our way of life in their hands. They also have the lives of their soldiers in their hands. You can't turn that responsibility over to just anyone.

My biggest pet peeve is that liberalism means anti - military and anti - war. If you run across a strong liberal then that person will talk about how the war is terrible and that our military is out of hand or some such. I consider myself a liberal but I cannot stand the stance against the military.

I really wish we weren't over in Iraq because I have several former students and players over there. I worry about those young men and women but they have a job to do and they know it.

I guess some people will say the training that people who go to the academy get are being brainwashed and in a loose way of thinking that is true. But I can talk about trust, commitment, teamwork and other attributes like that with my team all day long but when the game is over none of my players lives were in jeopardy. The military is the epitome of teamwork, commitment and trust - without those traits people may lose their life.

I don't know what life is like as a military person and I don't want to know. I would not function well in the military because I know it's not my calling. I do support and appreciate what the military is doing for me though. I am proud of my former students and players who have went into the military because I believe it was the best choice for them. They will grow and succeed in that life.

It would be nice to say we don't need a military or we could significantly reduce it and the spending to it but we can't. We live in a world where other groups of people hate us. Those groups of people want to see us suffer and die. The world is dangerous and full of people who want to hurt others. We need people to protect us and look out for the ones who cannot look out for themselves.

The many young men and women out there considering a career/ or any kind of service in our United States Military Service/Acadamies/ whatever you want to call it,anyone that anitcipates becoming and officer, goes through many interviews, and communications/ training sessions/ educational evaluations to become accepted into this line of prestegious training. Maybe it was a surprise to mom and sister that this is a recipricol endevor, but I can assure you it was very clear to the young man that made the commitment- "he decided to stay" Well, yeah! It was probably never a question in his mind at that point, he had already accepted what was offered and what he was about to gain in a wealth of educational experience along with his Military experience, which is not offered to everyone.
He will be the better for it, and you will probably never convince him otherwise ....If he gets sent to war, say your prayers, and thank your lucky stars that he is as well trained as he can be to be in that environment, stong, confident, self assured, and having the sense to protect all he is in charge of without hesitation.
If sis and mom never knew what brother was getting into, someone did not do their homework, research, etc. These Academies have been around forever, it's not secret they are soliders first/officers as earned.

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Depending on the year and the school, somewhere between 20,000 and 30,000 begin the process of acceptance at each academy. Somewhere arond 1600 actually get Congressional Appointments, but by the time you show up for "Beast", the number is usually around 1350. By the end of Basic Training (Plebe Summer), about 1250 start classes. Some realize that the life is not right for them... in our oldest's class, 6 kids quit during the Pledge of Allegiance... several said they knew nothing about all the yelling.... Graduating classes are pretty much always right around 950. You have until "Commitment" (the day you step on to campus your Junior year) to voluntarily leave without having to pay for the education for the first 2 years. Once you sign your Commitment Papers, you must finish the following 2 years of schooling and then five years of Service (this is where several exceptions come in)... the Navy calls it "Two and Seven". If you don't make grades or get kicked out for Honor Violation, etc, you owe them the entire amount for the education to date. During recruiting they tell you it's valued at $300,000 but this is an exageration... it was tested recently, and one kid has to pay back $178,000.

The process is a trying one. The young lady is actually correct when she says that the hooplah is so powerful, that a young person can get caught up in the wrong reasons for going. In some families, the pressure is so strong (whether it be a traditional military family, or just one that gets caught up in the prestige...) that we have actually heard stories of Dads saying to their sons to not even think of coming home if they quit. Disturbing.

The one thing that you always hear, and I agree wholeheartedly, is that you do not go for any other reason than to become an Officer. Now if other opportunities come up, and they have for our son, then you place your future in the PTB, and see if alternatives can be worked out. But you would never go to an Academy thinking you could come out as a professional athlete, in any sport. The one thing that most kids don't realize however is that the 5 year commitment is not to work in the motor pool at Travis AFB... you're not going to be peeling potatoes for a living... you come out as a 2ndLt, or Ensign, and you are an Officer and yes, a gentleman/lady. You will be working in a profession that you trained for at the Academy, and have a well paying job... right off the bat!

Academy educations carry loads of minimum 18 credits per sememter and as high as 23, even during your athletic season. It starts with Basic Training, your Plebe/Doolie year you are allowed off campus, maybe two nights total per semester. Your four years will include Jump or Soar (parachute or glider), Cadet Survival Training (training then 8 days evading a Cadre Team of 10 chasing you through the forest... they give you a liter of water, a live chicken and a live rabbit, a compass... and after 8 days you vector in an aircraft to pick you up). Up until about 1990, if you were caught by the Cadre, you had to go through POW Training... the PC's have done away with that course. Each summer you go on Summer OPS assignments... our's went to RAF Lakenheath in Cambridge, England and got to fly in F15's with the NATO Forces there. Then one summer he was a Cadre at Beast and got to do the yelling.

But it is not a normal college experience. I do remember the first time I went out to watch Fall Ball and got to campus in Colorado Springs at 6:05PM and the gates closed at 6. Now I had about $80 worth of take-out for cadKID#1 and all his Doolie buddies and they wouldn't let me on base. No cell phones for Doolies. I wanted to say to the guy, LET ME IN! But he had an M16, and politely asked me to turn around and quietly leave. I honestly wanted my kid back... but then I grew up.

The education is second to none. The ratio of teacher to student is something like 1:6, and they are ranked as the most accessible to students 24/7 of any schools in the country. The largest class I have ever heard of is 23, and there are no TA's, only professors.

If asked if they would do it again... both of my sons said in a New York Minute... even with the roller coaster ride OffcrKID#1 is on...


cadDAD

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acaddad
i enjoy reading about your son's and their acadamy experience's. i must say they have mt complete respect and admiration. most of our kids don't have the intestinal fortitude to get through the beast ,much less 4 years. i am thankfull they and young men like them chose to do this and defend our freedom. would you please thank them for me.

Great thread with great responses and some heartfelt and honest opinions. Thank you all.

The girl from Columbia is just incredibly naive. Yet that is not so unusual for her age.

quote:

The girl from Columbia is just incredibly naive.

lol, the mom sounds a bit wacky too ..hmm, no father mentioned?

I was trying to predict the response of a college age guy whose sis & mom were attempting to plan & direct HIS life .. but I can't print it

his other college options did not have those COOL FENCES & WALLS to keep mom & sis out

Now there's a perfect reason why every American should have at least a little military training.

Columbia may be an elite school but if that's what they are pushing out we as Americans are in trouble.

We are a capitolistic society that is run by leaders in both the public and private sectors. Tell me, of those two family members, who would you rather have leading our next generation?

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quote:

I was trying to predict the response of a college age guy whose sis & mom were attempting to plan & direct HIS life .. but I can't print it

According to cadKID#2, the poor kid is mortified. Talk of changing his name... little late for that. The Yard (Navy's campus) can be a very small place when virtually EVERYONE is staring at you.

Any wagers on whether articles 2, 3, and 4 will ever make print?

cadDAD

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cadDad,

Thank you, so much for your honest reply.

It sounds as if your experience with cadKID#1 were not so very different from the author's. Granted, she may have been politically incorrect, and done the unthinkable: publishing her thoughts. And, attempting to "spring" her brother was probably not only futile, but may have resulted in a more trying experience for him (if for no other reason that he knew of his family's anxiety and pain). And, granted, an M16 probably trumps a curt phonecall.

To me, it seemed more like the article was a cautionary story rather than an attack on the Academy. And, perhaps even a public service. It certainly got a discussion going. Maybe it will help some other family go into the process better informed, or at least with eyes more open. If anyone was put off on the Academies because of her article, they may not have belonged there to begin with.

You are hard on yourself in saying that you "grew up". It sounds like you learned to let your son grow up. I don't know about you, but I am always learning new things about how to be a parent (where are those darn owner's manuals anyway?). My learning curve isn't always the best, and sometimes I slide back down the wrong way, but those curves just keep on coming.

My heart goes out to every kid who is starting to make those hard decisions for themselves. There are no clear trail indicators and they will make mistakes (or have opportunities for learning, depending on how you view them). They will also bear the brunt and benefits of the consequences of their decisions. We, as family and friends, can hurt for them, worry about them, feel proud for them, but they are the ones who ultimately have to live with their choices.

My heart also goes out to the family and friends of all the kids who are starting or continuing down their own path. It is hard to watch from a distance as someone you love is taking risks, perhaps hurting or being scared, perhaps even being diverted from the path they chose. It is hard not to want to protect someone you love, to want to fix it, or make it right.

In protecting them, however, we can also deprive them of some of the joy, knowledge, and richness of a life lived well.

For me, it is almost as hard to watch from a distance as my children succeed. I get so excited that I want to be right next to them when they come off the field, after getting that last out, or winning run. I want to be there when the applause starts or the reviews come in. I get excited about what they are learning in class and want to hear all about their new friends.

But, I am coming to learn that the best gift that I can give them is to be a willing and supportive witness of their lives. I may not always agree with, or approve of, the way they are proceeding, but I try to take my comfort in the fact that they are making the effort, taking the risk, learning along the way. It is hard knowing where the support ends and the propping up begins. It is hard to know when it is time to let go and let them live their own lives.

I am finding, to my great surprise and relief, that, as I am learning to let them go, they are actually coming back more willingly to ask for advice, share their successes, or just to express opinions or observations - just to "be" with me. As I am learning to not try so hard to teach them about what I think is right or about what I believe is right for them, I find that I am learning so much more about them, and from them.

So, cadDAD, I respect and honor the decisions that you and your family have made. Not particularly because they have resulted in commitments to the Academies (yes, that, in and of itself, is reason enough for honor, admiration and respect) but, because it appears that you have done so in a way that has allowed all of you to grow.



cadDAD, here's hoping that we all have a gentle breeze at our backs, as well.

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My sincerest apologies for any misinterpretation on the use of the word "attrition". NO INSULT EVER intended, even to those who chose a different route as early as the Pledge. The maturity that a young person shows by changing direction at a time when obviously parents, relatives, Congressmen are watching so closely can take far more guts than perservering through a life that you are not meant for. The simple fact that you made it that far speaks volume for your abilities and character. It just is not the way for all. It would be interesting to calculate if the percentage who choose change is higher/lower than normal schools, for many kids find discomfort just in the change at this tough time in their growing lives. It does bear noting though that a majority of kids who choose to leave, apparently suffer through incredible regret in one form or another (according to kids they communicate with who stay)... whether it be lack of challenge where they go next, or whatever.

Interestingly, the Academies use a term for parents who take an "over-active" participation in their kids' lives.... they are called helicopter parents... because they tend to hover....

Blue skies & calm seas,
cadDAD

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quote:

Originally posted by P&CMom:
... how to be a parent (where are those darn owner's manuals anyway?).

Just ask your teen for another copy, they wrote the parenting manual. At least mine think they did...

quote:

Originally posted by AcademyDad:
Interestingly, the Academies use a term for parents who take an "over-active" participation in their kids' lives.... they are called helicopter parents... because they tend to hover....

Blue skies & calm seas,
cadDAD

The concept has been around longer than you might think...

Have a friend whose son is a USMA grad.

He went there because it was FREE. I believe if it wasn't free, they would have a tough time getting people to attend. No reason to pay that kind of money and take such physical and mental abuse for such a long period of time.

Great education...so I hear.

Had too many officers when he graduated...Had his commitment cut short by a year. Left as soon as he could.

The writer is a Barnard girl and the article is published by Columbia...In my opinion, two of the most liberal institutions in the history of mankind.

What should we have expected her to say?

cadDAD,

As the guys would say, "My bad!" You did not imply, nor did I understand you to intend, an insult to anyone who changes course. In fact, I think thought that I was agreeing with you.

You stated far more eloquently, and with a whole lot more credibility than I: " The maturity that a young person shows by changing direction at a time when obviously parents, relatives, Congressmen are watching so closely can take far more guts than perservering through a life that you are not meant for. The simple fact that you made it that far speaks volume for your abilities and character. It just is not the way for all."

I'll shut up now, sorry .

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:
Now there's a perfect reason why every American should have at least a little military training.

Columbia may be an elite school but if that's what they are pushing out we as Americans are in trouble.

We are a capitolistic society that is run by leaders in both the public and private sectors. Tell me, of those two family members, who would you rather have leading our next generation?

When my daughter was looking at colleges we went to a visitor's day at Smith College. In the welcome session the speaker said they would teach our kids to challenge every moral and value taught to them by their parents. I turned to my daughter and told her we could leave because she isn't going there. We got up and left.

It's one thing to know this attitude exists at a lot of colleges. I found it offensive to have it shoved in my face when the four year cost would be 180K. The school ranked high on the academics list, but not on the softball list. We were actually in the area to visit UMass and Tufts.

Liberal Arts.

Initially scared the you know what out of me thinking I was sending my son to one of those places.

Fortunately the morals and values we taught him remained and are still with him. Happy to say I know of at least a few of his buddies that didn't sucome either.

I will say this, just like the Academies, Liberal Arts isn't for everyone.

Isn't "liberal arts" Latin for "I have to go to grad school to get a real job."

quote:

Originally posted by TG:
Isn't "liberal arts" Latin for "I have to go to grad school to get a real job."

Or another meaning is.....

I plan on moving to Madison Wi get my Masters in Social Issues, teach a tie-dyed tee-shirt class, design protest signs, write a book called "Tofu for the Holidays", and drive a cab to make ends meet.

Gotwood-
Where do you get this stuff? You are hilarious!
Thanks for making me smile so often

First of all we need to understand that the serivice academies are not for everyone. Their job is to train future military officers so that they will be successful in leading the troops into battle if necessary. The graduates receive a great academic education along with learning military techniques and they not only receive this education for free they are also paid a salary for their efforts. Because the academies do their job so well the citizens of the United States of America are able to live in a free society to do mostly what they wish.

It sounds like this is a great young man that selected a path in life that his sister would not have wanted to walk. She can thank the service academies of the United States for allowing her the opportunity make this very selection.

Wow.

One student writes a poorly-conceived article actually admitting that the idea that a military academy produces...um, military is somehow a surprise to her, and knees start jerking all over the place.

To suggest that this one student is somehow representative of Liberal Arts, Columbia, Barnard or (Fill In The Blank) makes as much sense as saying that the nine reservists convicted over the Abu Ghraib incident were representative of the US military.

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:
We are a capitolistic society that is run by leaders in both the public and private sectors. Tell me, of those two family members, who would you rather have leading our next generation?

Gee, are they the only two choices?

Well, it's Autumn...so I guess there will be a lot of straw men about.

I don't believe the article is worthy of much attention. The fact that the girl was willing publish her extreme ignorance tells me she is
an idiot. Furthermore, assuming the rest of us
are as naive and ignorant as she, is an insult.

I heard part 2 has something to do with the shocking
fact that the moon is not made of cheese, she was
very disturbed to learn of this.

I started reading the post under the article and got to this one and stopped because it somehow was the best way to describe what I just read.


Deer Mz. Leppla,
Halp me I am stuk here at a state colegge skool and not as smart as u.
Whatz a Navy marine?
Thanx!

quote:

Originally posted by iheartbb:
Gotwood-
Where do you get this stuff? You are hilarious!
Thanks for making me smile so often

You know that drawer that everyone has in their kitchen...that cantankerous one that is totally over-stuffed?

Jumbled and crammed with assorted implements and devices...some protruding up and preventing the drawer from opening...coaxing loud and coarse outbursts from normally calm and civil people.

Scads and scads of implements and devices that are obsolete...or worse yet...never had a useful purpose.

Too many items in too little space...a scene that no one is proud of, but doubtless brings a broad smile from Ron Popeil while he plunges his hands into his bulging and overburdened pockets full of lots and lots of cash and loose change.

Every attempt to retrieve a device includes a risk of suffering a nasty puncture wound or painful slice. Just reaching for the drawer pull conjures up visions of another visit to the ER seamstress. Only the brave dare wander into its depths...the spud peeler hasn't seen the light of day since just after the 'Potato Famine'...it just isn't worth it.

You know that drawer.

Well iheartbb, picture that same drawer, but this one is labeled Google. I've spent untold hours carefully pawing through this drawer and have concluded that it is absolutely bottomless. Boundless really.

I sit down, take a sip from my mug of creativity, and take an 'off-the-wall' idea and splice it together with one of the pictures scattered everywhere in this drawer...simply matching idea to image.

I'm pleased to read that you enjoy that. Thank you.

Ouch!

quote:

Originally posted by Orlando:

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:
We are a capitolistic society that is run by leaders in both the public and private sectors. Tell me, of those two family members, who would you rather have leading our next generation?

Gee, are they the only two choices?

OK Orlando.

We'll throw in Frank Martin, Brittney Spears, and OJ.

Now we have covered the human links.

Frank I think you have second place all wrapped up

You left out Barney and Michael Jackson

Have some empathy for this young woman.

She no doubt loves her brother and is both worried and angry at him for the fact that he chose the 'academy" over what she perceives as a superior "Marxist" education.

His choices reflect a true love of his family and his sister, though she does not understand it, just like so many "leftist" mother's who have had their son's fight and die in Iraq can't understand it.

Her education will teach her to do things to feel good, while his education will teach him to do good. That's the difference as I see it.

A Marxist education at Barnard?!?!

That must be some idea of Marxism you've got there!

quote:

Her education will teach her to do things to feel good, while his education will teach him to do good. That's the difference as I see it.

LLorton this statement is awesome and very powerful and correct.

Gotwood- I get it, but you are an artform.
I likey.

Triple Dad - You were in my kitchen when? That drawer has been promised to the Smithsonian!
" Urban Chefs Stockpiling Weapons of Mass Destruction"

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It appears that Columbia has either removed the Thread of the Barnard girl, or that the 1000 comments (998 of which were not slanted in her favor) or as one friend told me this morning.... close to 1 million hits on the site, overwhelmed them.

I personally think that it was this morning's announcement that the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, will be addressing the Columbia student body. What are these people thinking?

Bet he wouldn't accept an invite from West Point or Annapolis...

cadDAD

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