quote:Originally posted by twotex:
A lot of folks have given advice. Now the rest is up to the player and his family to see where the chips fall.
Point taken, but what's so wrong about at least being reminded that the sun doesn't shine on every side of the building?
My brother was a 165 pound offensive lineman in high school, and played college football in Texas. He didn't believe it when people said he was too small to play in college.
Did he play O-line in college. If so GREAT, an exception to the norm. However, baseball many times does not allow the position latitude for the player like football might due to a size issue.
My view is that pessimism inhibits people from achieving their goals than optimism. Failure is a fact of life, and if you don't find a team, you just have to move on. But you for sure won't find one if you don't try.
If you're referring to my post I never intended to have a pessimistic approach, it was realistic. With the right approach, grasping reality is a great means of instilling optimism and "drive".
I didn't take rz's post as being negative I took it as him just being honest. I do believe there is a program for every player that wants to play in college. The reason I believe that is every player that has ever played for me that wanted to play in college has had the opportunity to do so. Now let me dig a little deeper and clarify that.
First of all the player has to really want to play at the next level. If they are setting conditions then they don't want to bad enough. It may mean the location , size of school , program etc is just something that they would rather pass on. That is fine there is nothing wrong with it. But if a player really wants to play college baseball there is a program out there for them. Now can they stay there? Can they do what they need to do to continue to be a part of that program? Will they be willing to continue to do what they have to do to stay there?
Many D3 programs have JV squads as well as some D2's. There are several community college programs always looking for players. I come from a state that has to look outside its borders to fill its rosters. From D1 D2 D3 NAIA Comm College JUCO. I have coached kids in HS that never started a game in HS that went to college and played college baseball. But they all had some things in common. They loved the game. They did not set conditions on where or who they would play for. They were willing to do whatever it took to continue to stay in the game.
Some never saw the field in college. Some saw limited time while in college. Some blossomed while in college. I have no problem finding a place for every kid that TRULY wants to play at the next level. I do it for many kids each year that have never played for me. Some of posters on this site that I have never met.
But if your setting conditions there very well might not be a place for you. The better you are the more options you will have. The better student you are the more options you will have. The more conditions you set the less options including none can be the case.
First of all the player has to really want to play at the next level. If they are setting conditions then they don't want to bad enough. It may mean the location , size of school , program etc is just something that they would rather pass on. That is fine there is nothing wrong with it. But if a player really wants to play college baseball there is a program out there for them. Now can they stay there? Can they do what they need to do to continue to be a part of that program? Will they be willing to continue to do what they have to do to stay there?
Many D3 programs have JV squads as well as some D2's. There are several community college programs always looking for players. I come from a state that has to look outside its borders to fill its rosters. From D1 D2 D3 NAIA Comm College JUCO. I have coached kids in HS that never started a game in HS that went to college and played college baseball. But they all had some things in common. They loved the game. They did not set conditions on where or who they would play for. They were willing to do whatever it took to continue to stay in the game.
Some never saw the field in college. Some saw limited time while in college. Some blossomed while in college. I have no problem finding a place for every kid that TRULY wants to play at the next level. I do it for many kids each year that have never played for me. Some of posters on this site that I have never met.
But if your setting conditions there very well might not be a place for you. The better you are the more options you will have. The better student you are the more options you will have. The more conditions you set the less options including none can be the case.
RZ1 - Yes, my brother played offensive line for 4 years for Austin College. He later overcame extreme personal obstacles in his life. He's just one of those guys who goes for it. Our dad always said "never up, never in", meaning if you don't try, you get nothing. No called third strikes - you better go down swinging. It is an attitude that has helped me tremendously.
My son wants to play at UT. Do I think he has a chance? I really don't know, but highly unlikely. I'll send him to camp there to give him a chance, because I'm fortunate to be able to do so. Of course we will work many other options as well, including some of the schools I have recommended in this thread. Things will sort out eventually.
Good discussion.
My son wants to play at UT. Do I think he has a chance? I really don't know, but highly unlikely. I'll send him to camp there to give him a chance, because I'm fortunate to be able to do so. Of course we will work many other options as well, including some of the schools I have recommended in this thread. Things will sort out eventually.
Good discussion.
quote:Point taken, but what's so wrong about at least being reminded that the sun doesn't shine on every side of the building?
That is not what we sell here on this site
I think the title of this thread is accurate. For someone that wants it badly enough, there is a place for them imho. Average ballplayers (or their parents) do not take the time to seek out a resource such as this in order to find out what it takes to get to the next level. Moreover, average players don't have the drive necessary to go forward and risk failure even when the naysayers are telling them otherwise.
Winners are not afraid to fail. I have been consistent with my posts of encouragement on this site. I have always said it takes decent talent to play at the next level. Not overwhelming talent but decent talent. What it takes is overwhelming desire imho.
Coach May is right. It is all about how one defines the parameters. If one says Stanford or Cal State Fullerton or LSU or bust, then of course there is not a program for every player. For a determined ballplayer having decent abilities, someone willing to do whatever necessary to find a fit for their respective abilities, there is a program out there for them.
Finally, nothing epitomizes better what I am talking about than the movie Rudy. Sure, Rudy technically never played but the way he defined his own personal success, he became a huge winner. The sun did indeed shine on all parts of the building in Rudy's world. To continue the metephor, if a player says "I need the sun to shine on all sides of the building at the SAME time," then I agree there will not be a program for them. On the other hand, if a determined player says "I am willing to work and scratch and claw and persevere UNTIL the sun shines on MY side of the buiilding then imho there is a program for them.
Forgive me in advance for seeing the glass half full
I tend to agree with the yes there is position, given Coach May's lack of preconditions. My youngest son loves baseball more than anything else he does. He has many talents, but this is what he works on to excel. In high school, he was a good baseball player, had an arm injury his freshman year, which effectively ended his pitching career, although we didn't know it then. Sophmore year was pretty much wasted trying to recover from surgery. Went to the outfield, with occasional pitching in relief appearances. BTW, we moved in the middle of sophmore year, so he was starting over in a new program besides the injury. After a couple weeks, earned the LF spot, hitting in the 3 hole. Senior year, after coaching change, still LF, still 3 hole, and recognized by coach as the best leader he ever had on a team, not the best player. No interest from any colleges, except one local juco. CoachB25 gave me some tips. We contacted several schools, and eventually, a small DII in Iowa gave him a chance. He played there for a couple years, but wasn't really happy. After a couple of summers in a wood bat league in the south, and talking to other players, he asked for and received a release, talked to some NAIA schools, and eventually transferred to one of those. He had a college history, an okay one at DII and summer league, but was starting over again. Halfway through this season, his team is 22-5, he is hitting .409, is in the top 5 in NAIA in doubles and runs scored, and is happier than he has been in a long time, and has told his mother and me that he has learned so much from his coach about life issues, not just baseball. Yes there is a spot, maybe more than one, but it takes work. I cannot tell you the number of hours he has put in the weight room, the cages, running, etc. to improve his game. All I know is he is doing what he loves, and I hope he is able to do that the rest of his life.
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:quote:Point taken, but what's so wrong about at least being reminded that the sun doesn't shine on every side of the building?
That is not what we sell here on this site
Again, point taken. However I think that it is morally wrong to sell "instant success" without a warning label and IMHO the title and most of the responses to this thread does not do that.
Average ballplayers (or their parents) do not take the time to seek out a resource such as this in order to find out what it takes to get to the next level.
IMO this is where I think things run a-muck at times. While those who have screen names on this site may fall into the description you mention, there are probably hundreds of parents/players a day who visit this site out of curiosity, searching for rose tinted dreams, or in need of a good laugh. That is the group that I speak of, the anonymous surfing parent of an average or non-committed player who can play for his own HS team, but, probably lacks the skill to play past HS. They do exist, and I know for a fact that they do visit this site in search of that pot of gold.
No question Coach May is right....there is a program for every player, provided there are no limitations. Most players, however, DO set limitations.....oh, so you don't want to go to school in northerm Maine and play for UMaine - Presque Isle? Ahhhh....well, there's a team that's probably looking for players. They finished last season with a couple of home games - their first in 4 years. The weather in northern Maine means the Owls play nearly (ok, all) all their games on the road.
Here's a link to a NY Times article about the program:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03...html?_r=2&ref=sports
This year's roster for the UMPI Owls shows 16 players. I'm sure Coach Saucier would love to have a few more players. Any hard throwing lefties out there?
So, is there a program for those those players that truly want to play beyond high school. As others have said....you truly have to have the desire - and no limitations.
Here's a link to a NY Times article about the program:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03...html?_r=2&ref=sports
This year's roster for the UMPI Owls shows 16 players. I'm sure Coach Saucier would love to have a few more players. Any hard throwing lefties out there?
So, is there a program for those those players that truly want to play beyond high school. As others have said....you truly have to have the desire - and no limitations.
quote:No question Coach May is right....there is a program for every player, provided there are no limitations.
That "no limitation" clause really screws my thoughts and opens the door to any school that has a mascot and someone who will answer to coach. If a players #1 priority is to play post HS baseball and he doesn't care where, then I think there may be some serious priority issues in regard to planning for his adult future.
quote:Again, point taken. However I think that it is morally wrong to sell "instant success" without a warning label and IMHO the title and most of the responses to this thread does not do that.
We are reading different posts. I don't see anyone selling instant success. I see people giving ideas on how to direct efforts. The key word being EFFORTS.
quote:Originally posted by twotex:
We are reading different posts. I don't see anyone selling instant success. I see people giving ideas on how to direct efforts. The key word being EFFORTS.
We must be. The thread I'm reading is called "There is a program for every player"
quote:Originally posted by rz1:quote:No question Coach May is right....there is a program for every player, provided there are no limitations.
That "no limitation" clause really screws my thoughts and opens the door to any school that has a mascot and someone who will answer to coach. If a players #1 priority is to play post HS baseball and he doesn't care where, then I think there may be some serious priority issues in regard to planning for his adult future.
I don't recall seeing anywhere in Coach May's "limitations" that he mentioned academics, so we have to assume that he is referring to non-academic self-imposed limitations.
rz1....yes, if baseball is the #1 priority (no matter where) over education, there would seem to be an issue - at least in our house.
But, I agree with the statement that there IS a program out there for every player. I think sometimes players (and parents) need to have a wider 'radar screen' of possibilitites. Not everyone will play D1 in ACC, SEC, etc.
But, I agree with the statement that there IS a program out there for every player. I think sometimes players (and parents) need to have a wider 'radar screen' of possibilitites. Not everyone will play D1 in ACC, SEC, etc.
quote:Originally posted by New2This:
I don't recall seeing anywhere in Coach May's "limitations" that he mentioned academics, so we have to assume that he is referring to non-academic self-imposed limitations.
I'm sorry
I thought college was about academics first then baseball.quote:Originally posted by rz1:quote:Originally posted by New2This:
I don't recall seeing anywhere in Coach May's "limitations" that he mentioned academics, so we have to assume that he is referring to non-academic self-imposed limitations.
I'm sorry
That's exactly what I said. I interpret Coach May's comments to be "post" academic issues, once academic priorities are sorted out.
So what everyone is saying is that once you've decided that your goal is a BS in Meteorology, there are still baseball programs available to you?
quote:Originally posted by rz1:
So what you're saying is that once you've decided that your goal is a BS in Meteorology, there are still baseball programs available to you?
Yes, of course that is what we are saying.
Player decides that he could get a meterology degree at LSU, Stanford, Rice, or University of Chicago (UoC). He determines that he has D3 level ability so he does everything in his power to get recruited at UoC. Plan B - player attends juco for two years all the while improving his baseball skills. Every school that he wants to attend for meteorology is now in play since his baseball skils and physical maturity have caught up. Plan C - player plays two years at the juco, realizes he does not want to continue and transfers to Rice to complete his degree. There are literally millions of variations on this theme. All of them with viable academic and baseball solutions.
The first person to get rz1 to cry uncle gets a reward. I'll send you a pm to inform you of the reward
BS in Meteorology - pretty big limitation, depending upon your particular level of baseball skills, is my guess.
BS in Science...less of a limitation.
BS (in whatever major) much less of a limitation.
BS in Science...less of a limitation.
BS (in whatever major) much less of a limitation.
quote:The first person to get rz1 to cry uncle gets a reward. I'll send you a pm to inform you of the reward
Now that's funny! Thanks, CD, for lightening up the thread.
quote:Originally posted by rz1:
So what you're saying is that once you've decided that your goal is a BS in Meteorology, there are still baseball programs available to you?
Maybe, why not? Our son wants to major in engineering and any school on his "baseball" list must first have either his major or associated academics, that goes for JUCO and 4yr colleges alike, including liberal arts colleges if they have a 3/5 transfer program leading to another school with the major.
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
The first person to get rz1 to cry uncle gets a reward. I'll send you a pm to inform you of the reward
ok I seem to be the only idiot that doesn't see this as the perfect world.
I talk and work with parents and kids year round who work theirs a$$es off with a vision to follow the same path my son had and play college baseball. The are committed to the hilt to make the next level and they do visit this site because I tell them it is a wealth of knowledge for baseball related issues and debates. At the same time I also know that many do not have the tools to step on the field of any college program in this State or any other and at the same time realize their academic goals. We don't live in one of the baseball meccas that many on this site live in and everyone's knowledge of National HS talent may not be as encompassing as they may think.
I guess I could tell them that there is an diesel mechanics tech school in ND where they could try out and probably make the team thus satisfying the thread claim
Is that chasing the dream or succumbing to it?
later
Keep in mind that the majority of kids coming out of HS have no idea as to what they want to major in--that is why the first two years of college academics are basic for nearly all the entering students.
No, this is not a perfect world especially when it comes to college selection and associated baseball. I truly belive that there is a college for every kid who wants to play college baseball--it may not be the level he seeks or the school he seeks but compromise happens and the student can play ball
and get his education. Obviously the kid with a select major faces a tougher decision because of his academic choice but for the average student there is a college for them where they can play ball.
No, this is not a perfect world especially when it comes to college selection and associated baseball. I truly belive that there is a college for every kid who wants to play college baseball--it may not be the level he seeks or the school he seeks but compromise happens and the student can play ball
and get his education. Obviously the kid with a select major faces a tougher decision because of his academic choice but for the average student there is a college for them where they can play ball.
TR- on an academic message board a parent was asking questions about her son playing in college, specifically the Ivies, or high academic D3's in the NE. I suggested she read this site and contact you for some guidance. So if you get a PM that may be who it's from. Told her you are the best source for that area (hope you don't mind).
CABB
Thanx for the heads up
I will look for the PM --no problem
Thanx for the heads up
I will look for the PM --no problem
IMHO based on my current knowledge (oldest is 2011), I'd have to agree with Coach May and ClevelandDad that an AVERAGE high school player can find a team at the next level with some effort and with few if any limitations put onto the selection.
The key to me is AVERAGE. The definition is based on the observer at any given time. I've met many folks who had what I will politely call an "inflated" version of their son's talent. Thus, they would consider their son above average when, in fact, they may not even be average to a knowledgeable, impartial observer.
An example of my thinking from what I have seen over the last several years watching HS baseball...The school where some kids played did not have much talent and they have started or played on Varsity for 3 or 4 years. IMO, some of those kids are talented enough that the same would happen at almost any school. But, some of those same kids would see very limited time on the field or may not even make the JV / Varsity teams at other area schools.
One or more honest assessments from the right folks is needed to control the rose colored glasses.
The key to me is AVERAGE. The definition is based on the observer at any given time. I've met many folks who had what I will politely call an "inflated" version of their son's talent. Thus, they would consider their son above average when, in fact, they may not even be average to a knowledgeable, impartial observer.
An example of my thinking from what I have seen over the last several years watching HS baseball...The school where some kids played did not have much talent and they have started or played on Varsity for 3 or 4 years. IMO, some of those kids are talented enough that the same would happen at almost any school. But, some of those same kids would see very limited time on the field or may not even make the JV / Varsity teams at other area schools.
One or more honest assessments from the right folks is needed to control the rose colored glasses.
Average is a hard term for me to get my arms around. Average in one program may mean above average or below average in another. I like the term decent because it means that a player is a contributing member of his team. Doesn't mean he is the star of the team but a contributing member nonetheless.
When I look at the numbers posted on this site for example, there are about 1/2 million graduating seniors that could potentially vie for about 50,000 post high school college programs including JUCO, NAIA, D3, D2, and D1. That is about 1 in 10 odds of making a college roster (including diesel mechanics school in ND ). I am sure if we walked into any high school dugout and asked for a show of hands how many wanted to play in college, we might see every hand go up. When we looked at their actions however i.e., how many of them actually took the initiative to be recruited, we might only be talking 1 or 2 players on many teams. Thus, even though the 1 in 10 numbers seem daunting, for the kids that are passionately trying to get recruited somewhere, the odds are probably much higher for that group. I am guessing for many of these kids, there are people telling them to not even bother as they are not talented enough. I know this, if you don't even try, you have already failed.
I don't think we need to worry about warning people on this site that they could potentially fail in their endeavors. I think a bigger disservice would be to discourage kids who may have a legitimate chance if they only tried
When I look at the numbers posted on this site for example, there are about 1/2 million graduating seniors that could potentially vie for about 50,000 post high school college programs including JUCO, NAIA, D3, D2, and D1. That is about 1 in 10 odds of making a college roster (including diesel mechanics school in ND
). I am sure if we walked into any high school dugout and asked for a show of hands how many wanted to play in college, we might see every hand go up. When we looked at their actions however i.e., how many of them actually took the initiative to be recruited, we might only be talking 1 or 2 players on many teams. Thus, even though the 1 in 10 numbers seem daunting, for the kids that are passionately trying to get recruited somewhere, the odds are probably much higher for that group. I am guessing for many of these kids, there are people telling them to not even bother as they are not talented enough. I know this, if you don't even try, you have already failed.I don't think we need to worry about warning people on this site that they could potentially fail in their endeavors. I think a bigger disservice would be to discourage kids who may have a legitimate chance if they only tried
As the father of an "average" player I've debated on if I should take off the "rose colored glasses" and start teaching my son about how life works.
I may look like a fool sometimes with the glasses on but I'm always going to tell him with hard work he can do what he wants. Somebody else can be the one to tell him he can't play anymore.
I've discovered the more somebody else tells him he can't do something the harder he works to prove them wrong. Frankly that trait alone may be what kept him on the HS team this year.
I may look like a fool sometimes with the glasses on but I'm always going to tell him with hard work he can do what he wants. Somebody else can be the one to tell him he can't play anymore.
I've discovered the more somebody else tells him he can't do something the harder he works to prove them wrong. Frankly that trait alone may be what kept him on the HS team this year.
FWIW, I was trying to get my hands around what RZ1 might be reacting to. I know I would always encourage kids / parents to seek out every possible option they can for something that is important to them. Hearing "No" will not be fun. But, if it is something you really love, then you make them tell you no rather than walk away and wonder later if you could have done it...
Bas3balldad: I think pretty much everyone I know has at one time or another felt their child was better at some endeavor than they really were. I expect that comes with being a parent and I know I've been guilty of it from time to time. I've always encouraged my boys to strive to be the best.
My son said he wanted to include a few major D1s on his list of colleges. I have zero problem with that as long as he also has some on the opposite end to balance that out. If one or more of them (top tier to lower rack) are a good fit and want him to play, then he'll have choices to make...If none, then he'll still have choices - just different ones.
I'm sure it will all work out in the long run...while I'd love to fast forward to August 2011 to see where he's off to and how all of this ends up, I don't want to miss a single part of the journey. Whether it is over after HS or after a 20 year career in the Majors, the journey will eventually end...I'll just enjoy our time together and watching him play a game he loves for as long as I can...
Bas3balldad: I think pretty much everyone I know has at one time or another felt their child was better at some endeavor than they really were. I expect that comes with being a parent and I know I've been guilty of it from time to time. I've always encouraged my boys to strive to be the best.
My son said he wanted to include a few major D1s on his list of colleges. I have zero problem with that as long as he also has some on the opposite end to balance that out. If one or more of them (top tier to lower rack) are a good fit and want him to play, then he'll have choices to make...If none, then he'll still have choices - just different ones.
I'm sure it will all work out in the long run...while I'd love to fast forward to August 2011 to see where he's off to and how all of this ends up, I don't want to miss a single part of the journey. Whether it is over after HS or after a 20 year career in the Majors, the journey will eventually end...I'll just enjoy our time together and watching him play a game he loves for as long as I can...
quote:Originally posted by 08Dad:
Another conference to consider is the Northwest Conference. The NWC is made up of D3 schools in Washington and Oregon. Academically there is a wide range of levels as well as a reasonably wide range of majors to chose from.
PM me if you would like more info. Between my son and my daughter, I think I have done a visit to nearly every school in the conference.
08 Dad, I sent you a PM reagarding NWC. Thanks!
Thanks for bumping this Ryanrod. It was good to read. Now I am left wondering if hwy380's son ever got recruited in any way. Like reading a novel with no ending.
I enjoyed reading it as well. It was interesting to me to see how my son's views about schools have changed over time.
Very interested to know how things turned out for OP.
Very interested to know how things turned out for OP.