There is an I in baiseball

Fungo

Only in certain instances do players sit out a year ie SEC if you tranfer within the conference

College Baseball is a business just like any other--non compete clauses ?-- so you dont go to another school in your conference

One of the serious questions asked during the recruiting phase, what happens if the coachwho brought me here leaves. Unfortunaetly, the commitment is with the school.
I have no problem with coaches leaving for whatever their reasons may be,but I do have a problem with the new coaches coming in and not upholding the agreements made between the player and the school if the player has performed well on the field as well as in the classroom.
JMO
It's a good idea to try to find out the AD's philososphy on that one.

quote:

One of the serious questions asked during the recruiting phase, what happens if the coachwho brought me here leaves. Unfortunaetly, the commitment is with the school.
I have no problem with coaches leaving for whatever their reasons may be,but I do have a problem with the new coaches coming in and not upholding the agreements made between the player and the school if the player has performed well on the field as well as in the classroom.
JMO
It's a good idea to try to find out the AD's philososphy on that one.

Great advice!

quote:

Only in certain instances do players sit out a year ie SEC if you tranfer within the conference

Then why does everyone who wants to transfer need to get a release from the AD? Is it a courtesy?

Your scholarship agreement is a contract--you need to be released from it if you wish to transfer--

The scholarship/contract is for one year. Does a player always need a release at the end of the year?

EDIT: I answered my own question. A player needs to get written release every time basicly if he or she receives scholarship dollars.

http://www.ncaa.org/library/general/transfer_guide/2004...2004-05_transfer.pdf

The part I always like with coaches is when they swear their undying loyalty and the next day announce they are leaving. Most recently just happened with Wichita State Coach Gene Stephenson. Two days ago he told the media he was NOT leaving Wichita and told the press he "had no idea what they are talking about".

Two days later it's announced that he and his ENTIRE staff are going to OU.

I see no problem with coaches bettering themselves, moving on and moving up, etc., but maybe a little honesty in the process. I think that would be the least current players and recruits deserve.

But this happens all the time. In football, I remember John Robinson swearing undying loyalty to USC, he'd never leave and within the week was named coach of the Rams. Same scenario with Butch Davis leaving the college ranks for the NFL. Rick Majuerus recently took the USC basketball job and "quit" within the week.

The kids are held to the highest standards of committment, but the coaches....

As was posted above, the thing a player must remember is to pick the school, never the coach.

My son went through a coaching change last year. The coach did not leave, he was pushed out and the kids just adapt to a new coach. A few years ago when my son was picking the college he wanted to go to, we talked about it a lot before he chose his school. I recommended that he choose a school that he would want to go to if he could not play baseball anymore, and that is what he did. He gets along well with his new coaches, but the main thing is that come next June, he will have a degree in his pocket from the school of his choice. He played everyday for the old coach, and he is in the lineup every day for the new coach. Coaches try to reach for the rainbow, just like the players. I have no gripe with a coach trying to better himself in his profession.

In a basketball scenario my cousin played for D-1 program that will remain nameless and after his freshman year the coach was fired. When the new coach came in he ran out all of the the former coaches recruits. I think it was a total of 10 in two years. He even ran out my cousin who was the leading rebounder in the conference.
I doubt this scenario holds true in all situations, but still all new coaches will favor their recruits.

Dad04,
The requirement for a release is not limited to scholarship players. Indeed it also covers players at the DIII level. To make it "more unfriendly" for players, the NCAA also precludes a DIII player from transfering to a DI/II and recieving any athletic scholarship money during he first year after the transfer.
I do not have a problem with a coach betting their situation when the opportunity arises. But the NCAA has certainly done what it can to preclude or at least hamper the player from similar opportunities.

Someone correct me on this, don't individual conferences have their own rules for transfers within that conference?
I was under the impression you can not transfer and play for one year within conferences, but can out of conference.

The NCAA has it's rules. Some conferences have additional rules.

A contract is a contract is a contract unless......

The contract is going the way of a handshake - that's what happens when no one feels they apply to them.

It aint just the coaches though. I can tell you from experience how bad it is when the school decides to shut down the program completely - and it aint a pretty picture.

These folks are teaching kids a lesson alright - but it is not one we want our children taught.

Fungo - I like the idea that a coach has to sit out a year. I will admit there are, on occassion, extenuating circumstances. These should be taken into consideration. But just because I want to is not one of those extenuating circumstances.

I would not make a coach sit out a year. If a school fires a coach for doing a poor job, they then need to hire a new coach. If every coach has to sit out a year, who would be coaching the team where the coach got fired?

The NCAA is a monopoly that needs to be shaken up.

Some people here remind us that the player signs a contract. So who exactly negotiated this contract on behalf of the players?

Do you honestly believe that this contract is remotely fair to all sides?

Now explain how it is fair for a kid to be recruited by a school, move half way across the country, the coach gets fired and the next coach doesn’t renew the scholarship.

This is just one example and there are countless more scenarios that do not even come close to passing the “smell test”.

quote:

Originally posted by SBK:

Now explain how it is fair for a kid to be recruited by a school, move half way across the country, the coach gets fired and the next coach doesn’t renew the scholarship.

This is just one example and there are countless more scenarios that do not even come close to passing the “smell test”.

Simple, don't send you son across the country.

I don't agree with the NCAA on quite a bit of stuff, but we made sure that we asked the atheletic department their philosophy on transfer and coaches leaving for one reason or another. It was important for him to like his coaches and team mates, it was important for us to let him know what scenerios can take place. If for some reason we felt he would get the boot if there was a coaching change, he would be somewhere else. Know the stability of the program.
I am just learning the minor league system, if I am wrong let me know. When one is drafted and signs a contract aren't they bound by that team for a number of years. Before you sign, aren't you aware of what you are signing and why. If you haven't done what you were supposed to, don't they tell you goodbye, or trade you to someone else because they don't need you or WANT another player in exchange for you? Do you want to leave (or can you) because your manager went someplace else? Or maybe you don't l ike him. Same applies to signing with a school, you are not getting paid, but getting your education (or part) paid for. This is the trade off. They own you too!
Coaches have families to feed, coaches want changes, want new challenges, want to go back to their alma maters, where their families live. Whatever, they don't have to let anyone know if they are staying or not. It's ok for your son to want to play under that coach, they ALL want that, but let him know the possibilities exist it may not be the same coach for all four years. It is also important to chose the school where your abilities lie, if you can keep up with academics. If you are truly not division 1 material for the new coach, or borderline student, but you got in because the old coach wanted you, the next coach, I am sure will go out to find a better player for the program. Take all those things into consideration. I find the parents who have the most problems are those that know deep down inside they sent their kids off to a program where they might not belong. JMO, and not directed at anyone in particular here.

You the parent need to do your best to LEARN what it means when your son (and you) sign that NLI. If you don't like it, if you know what could happen and your son doesn't like it, don't sign it, it's about choice and being educated.
Problem is as soon as an offer comes in and it's good (or decent), at the school of your sons dreams, it's a done deal. Everyone is happy, no questions asked. You don't even think this could happen at THAT school. Nah, Coach has been there too long, coach wins all the time, people love him, he is part of that school. etc. There was a period of a few days where my sons Head Coach considered leaving, for whatever reason: WHAT, people said, leave Clemson?
IT HAPPENS. Some schools run their programs so well that coaching transitions are smooth , if the coach has left on his own desire and not because he ran the program downhill. And that school will look for a coach that can follow the philosophy of the atheletic department.
I am sorry but as said I am tired of the NCAA bashing. The NCAA has it's rules in place for a reason, even if ridiculous to some of us. Could you see year after year kids leaving to go where they want because coach left? Guidelines protect the SCHOOLS, not coach, not player.

One thing we all need to realize, that even with "multi-year" contracts, most coaches are in reality year-to-year (especially state schools) and are considered "employees at will." Meaning, they serve at the pleasure of the university president.

We are allowing contracts to become insignificant. Why sign a contract at all if it has no meaning????? Why not sign a one year contract renewable each year???

I agree with bbscout on this. Kids are allowed to leave schools and play professionally and coaches should have the opportunity to pursue career advancement. I feel that if a coach leaves, however, all of the players should be granted a release if they desire and be immediately eligible to play at other schools. We tell players to choose a school based on where they want to go if they could no longer play ball, but the reality is that they choose the schools because they feel that coach gives them the best chance to succeed. We work where we respect or appreciate our boss, if we do not, then we leave. These kids need the same opportunities.

What about the Gene Stiphisin episode in Oklahoma...???

A friend of mine's son (catcher) will be going to Wichita State this fall. What a whirlwind day for them.

You would have thought Stephenson would have had his ducks in a row and knew about the scholarships before he accepted the job. As an incoming player or future recruit, I would be a little leery knowing that the coach might jump ship at any moment.

hsballcoach-very good point you've made. I do not fault a coach for making a change for any reason he feels would be in his best interest. At the same time, I would like to know how many
parents' sons chose their prospective schools purely because of the school itself. Yes, there are
those who would go to a certain institution no matter who the head coach was just because they always wanted to be a "Gator" or "Longhorn" or "Buckeye" and that's fine, but I would venture to
say the vast majority of recruits went to a program because they felt the coaching staff itself
would be the best fit for them and would be able to help them improve their baseball skills.

I think a fair and equitable provision would be to allow a player the option to make a move
without penalty or restriction if the coaching situation changes from the original recruiting
scenerio. What would it hurt?

JMO

TigerPaw Mom,

You were very prudent in asking the athletic department those important questions. Did you get the answers in writing? .... didn't think so.

Has anyone ever heard of anyone amending this so-called ncaa contract? What is the alternative if the contract is not acceptable outside of not participating?

As I asked before, who negotiated this contract for the athletes? The ncaa is a joke and they are a monopoly.

Here's another example. Some coach violates a rule and moves on, retires or gets fired and the remaining kids get penalized by not getting a chance to participate in post season championships.

Easy answer to all of this:

1. NCAA really doesn't truly protect athletes much in a lot of areas, and that's reality.

2. Everyone has the opportunity to go in to college baseball with their eyes wide open to the flaws in the system and the deficiences with how things really work.

3. Realize the system isn't perfect, but it's the only one available, and deal with things as they occur as best one can.

(My son transferred this summer and while things went very smoothly, he just learned that only 25 of 45 credits transferred, so in effect, one academic year was wasted. Bummer, but he's happy to be where he is, and we just hope and pray that things work out as we all hope they do.)

4. Trust, but verify.....and pray.

People lie. Baseball coaches are people. They lie.

Problem for "kids" who are dependent on the school for the scholarship money when something happens, they have very few "rights" that are protected without the expenditure of a lot of money.

I agree with Hokie--the system is what it is and nobody can change that, not even your Congressman

All you can do is go in with your eyes wide open knowing full well that the NCAA is what it is.

Take it or Leave it !!!

TR-The NCAA makes changes every year. Are you saying we should accept mediocrity? Sit back and
do nothing? Don't try to make the system better?

I'm sure you've never run your program that way.

TR.

Thank goodness the "Sons of Liberty" didn’t have that attitude although Boston Harbor would have been a little less polluted.

moc1

Don't compare my program to the NCAA==two totally different animals--

The point is the NCAA is what it is and if you think you can change them go for it--I dont have the time to spend on something that wont happen

Is it mediocrity--could well be-- can you change it for the better I dont think so--the college coaches cant get heard how do you erxpect to be heard

System???? it is what it is--again if you want to try and change it go for it==perhaps you have the time

Do employees at IBM try to change the system at IBM?

Think about it-- people like you want to change the world but I dont think it will happen--at least not in our lifetime

Why would a coach want to change the system that forces the player to crawl on his knees, hat in hand, just to get permission just to inquire of opportunities at another school?

It is in the coaches best interest for the kid to be able to find a new school he has to jump through hoops and say "pretty please" at the old school, making most kids think twice before they do it, but allowing the coach a tool for running off those he wants to.

I'm guessing coaches like the current transfer system just fine.

Whatever change there is won't ever come from schools and the players have no voice or power.

TR,

Your apathy is extraordinary.

It’s probably true that none of us alone will bring change to the ncaa but I would hope it won’t dissuade us from trying even if our only contribution might be to jaw-bone the issue.

The steroid issue was never seriously confronted until many individuals created a drum beat loud enough for congress to get involved. You never joined the many of us in pounding that drum either.

You write, “Do employees at IBM try to change the system at IBM”?

Probably not the apathetic ones, but some of them sure have. IBM barely resembles the one of a few years back. Do they even make PCs any more?

Dad04 and SBK

Agree completely! The NCAA does a very poor job in protecting our young athletes. They are not chattle, they are student athletes. The whole system is a joke and major changes are needed.

quote:

Originally posted by BeenthereIL:
People lie. Baseball coaches are people. They lie.

Problem for "kids" who are dependent on the school for the scholarship money when something happens, they have very few "rights" that are protected without the expenditure of a lot of money.

Beenthere,

Truer words have never been spoken. Just the way it goes.

SBK, some thoughts to consider:
1. The contract you refer to, the NLI, is not administerred by the NCAA.
2. Colleges are not required to offer sports and players do not have a "right" to play college baseball. They have the opportunity to do so.
If a college does not want to offer baseball, there is no sanction, i.e., Oregon, Colorado. It they want to discontinue the sport, the college has that "right," i.e., Iowa State and Providence.
3. The governing body, the NCAA, is made up of colleges and college presidents, not players. Coaches can make recommendations but the rules are made by the colleges. Players do not even make recommendations.
4. Players and families are not going to change the NCAA, IMO because they do not have "rights" in that organization and do not have an avenue for effective input. The only option would be not to participate in college sports which will result in others being provided and taking that opportunity.
IMO, there really is not an effective method to change the NCAA because players are not organized and they are not participants and even if they were, there is changeover every 4 years.
If you have suggestions on how changes might be implemented in this scenario, would be interested to hear them.
While there are NCAA rules and procedures that I definately do not agree with and many more I have a hard time understanding, I think they are far outweighed by the "opportunity" provided our sons to continue their baseball careers. Until recently, baseball was a money losing endeavor at nearly every college and still is at most. The cost of a DI baseball program, fully funded with scholarships, is well over $1,000,000. To travel a baseball team, by air, for a 3 game weekend series, is in the range of $40,000. When that amount is being invested, I think colleges do have the "right" to make the important decisions.

quote:

While there are NCAA rules and procedures that I definately do not agree with and many more I have a hard time understanding, I think they are far outweighed by the "opportunity" provided our sons to continue their baseball careers. Until recently, baseball was a money losing endeavor at nearly every college and still is at most. The cost of a DI baseball program, fully funded with scholarships, is well over $1,000,000. To travel a baseball team, by air, for a 3 game weekend series, is in the range of $40,000. When that amount is being invested, I think colleges do have the "right" to make the important decisions.

Infieldad, I agree completely with that statement and would only add that plenty of other sports lose money, including football at most schools, the most expensive sport to run.

Infield Dad,

Good points! I’ll address a few.

1. True, but it certainly is endorsed by the NCAA.

3. Not having some form of player representation might be part of the problem. The United States Olympic Committee has athlete representation and has found it instrumental in strengthening the relationship with its athletes and also finds it helpful to improve the overall organization. A few years back I was one of those athlete delegates. The NCAA could use all the constructive ideas they can get.


4. Once again you make a strong case on why the NCAA can do better.

It’s not the NCAA that is creating the opportunity for student athletes, they are simply the lease-holder of the opportunity. As stewards they need to do a better job in administering the program for the colleges as well as the players.

It’s pretty idealistic to believe the colleges are providing athletic opportunities from the goodness of their heart. In some cases, athletics provide a positive cash flow. In all cases, athletics create a campus environment where people feel good about the campus, provide entertainment and promote the institution, after all, advertising is not cheap. I’m sure there are a lot of D3 colleges who attract student athletes that contribute a lot of tuition and grant money to the school.

How costly is it to give out a scholarship? Let’s say a school funds 10 scholarships but has a roster of 40 players. Many have more than this number when you count red shirts, invited walk-ons who don’t make the team, injured and others. While these 10 scholarships may have a face value of $25,000 each, the actual net cost to the college can be much less. Meanwhile the college has attracted 30 plus other players who are paying the full amount. (I know many players may be getting partial scholarships but the net result is the same)

A lot of schools may have more than 40 players involved in some facet in the program but are only funding a few scholarships. The point is that the colleges are not losing as much as one might think by providing these athletic opportunities.

Oh yeah, what about some of us former players who kick in money to the school because we are alumni.

Getting back to the NLI (National Letter of Intent) contract, nobody can tell me with a straight face that offering an athletic scholarship on a year-by-year basis is good for anyone but the institution. If you read the NLI, the institution has all the way up to July 1 to let the player know if they will no longer receive the scholarship. Now how fair is that?

Good posts Infielddad (especially point #2)and Hokie.

SBK,
No I did not get it in writing, but I asked and I also asked the coach about transfer requests. And went a step further to find out if those requests were honored.
In all honesty, as much as my son chose to go to Clemson because he liked the coaching staff and philosophy, if they all left tomorrow he would remain. He made a committment to Clemson, his agreement was with them. He loves where he attends school, his friends on and off the field, it is not all about baseball to him. If he wanted that, he would have gone to play pro ball. As an impact player, he would not be asked to leave by a new coach. I suppose if he had to worry about it every year what his role would be, he would know he doesn't belong at that school and ask to leave.
Do any of you think for one moment a coach is not going to release a player that he feels will not hurt his program if he leaves? Do you think at any time a school is going to release half of its team because the coach left, no. That would set back their program for a year or two. It will never change.
As I said, the NCAA is not out to protect the player or coaches but the schools. It's not fair, I agree but that is the way it is. And if one doesn't like it, one has a choice.
One of the reasons I say choose your school wisely.

TPM

Don't you understand that SBK truly believes he can change the system perhaps even the world---

In reading this thread, it seems to me that there are many people who think that they (and/or their sons) are not responsible for their own successes and failures. Coaches are people and sometimes make decisions that are best for them and their families. Some of you think that is criminal.

I have read several posts on here from people (mostly parents) who ask questions about attending one school as a freshman, usually an NAIA or DI or DII school, and then transferring after that to play DI, as if they are looking for greener pastures. But when a coach wants to do it, shame on him. C'mon.

I have found that in my lifetime most of the people who have cried, "That is not fair" just don't have what it takes to make it on their own. There is always somebody else to blame for their shortcomings. For example, those that blame the HS coach when their kid doesn't make all-league or get a college scholarship, those that blame the umpire for their kids' failures on the field. Doesn't anybody look into mirrors anymore?

If Gene Stephenson wants to leave to go to OU, good for him. If his assistants want to go with him, good for him. The coaching changes will be taking place all summer, and some of you will find out that your son's coach is leaving late in August, perhaps. Deal with it as mature people and quit your whining.

Those of you who want change, go for it. I'll bet not one person who is complaining in this forum will try to initiate any changes with the NCAA or any other institution theat they want to complain about.

Grateful,
I have to agree with you. We found out last Thursday that my son's JUCO coach was leaving.(Son is a HS '05) I can tell you that there's never been a kid or parent more disappointed. He was a big part of son's decision. However, due to some issues at the school (not issues with baseball/program, but with the school)we weren't completely surprised. Were we mad at him? Absolutely not. We understand - just very disappointed in the situation. He's a human being that had to make choices that were the best for him and his family. Now, my son has the same options - stay there or sign with someone else. That's what we're doing this week - exploring other options. We wish we didn't have to even think about this at this point. Life often deals us a blow that we don't think is fair or that we're not happy about. This can include working within rules and timeframes that don't seem fair to many of us. However, sometimes that blow will end up taking you down an even greener path.