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79 replies

Thoughts on this Swing

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I Infopimp100+ posts
It's BP. I'd prefer to see a game swing.

But, he has the making of one great swing.

Midlo is totally off track on the bat wrap thing.

That is what may make him great. Notice the early batspeed. Notice the change of direction of the knob and the barrel almost immediately upon launch.

He may be a little out front on this bp swing but he won't be in a game.

Very solid mechanics.
Last edited by Infopimp
MN-MomMN-MomHSBaseballWeb Owner
I'm no expert, but that swing looks awfully pretty to me. Smile

To be more specific, it does look like he connected further in front of the plate than ideal, but I get the impression it was due to making an adjustment to the pitch, not a flaw in the swing. I like the rotation of the hips and shoulders, and the arc the bat takes through the zone. Now I'll retreat to my corner, because I really don't have much to base my observation on, I'm just thinking out loud.
alieneyesa
Last edited by MN-Mom
T tom.guerry100+ posts
This is a very good swing,well into the high level pattern.

The rubberbandwinding could be improved a little.

He would hit less around it.make contact closer in if hands were loaded in a little more.

BUT,

Very good inward turn
Good hip **** with good arm/leg action synch
Good hand cok/carry/weight shift tempo
Lead leg turns open and hands stay back as front toe touches, no interruption of coil.

Good shoulder tilt in drop and tilt phase.

He demonstrates the desired result of Buster's cue of keeping the back elbow up until the front foot is down. here is what Buster said at the "fever" site:

Buster-

"......he must maintain that loaded position until his foot gets down to actually utilize it [utilize, not interrupt load/coil]. Maybe it is a point to add worth sharing. The split second longer of getting to true launch with the shoulder back can be an easy teach and a big result.......
"we want to turn our shoulders back ( without counter rotation) and keep them back until we swing. Then explain that we do not really swing/ release the upper body until foot plant makes it simple possibly. It was also interesting that all previous efforts to get some shift failed until he had as the primary goal keeping the shoulders loaded."
Last edited by tom.guerry
B bbscout1,000+ posts
I love the way he loads with his front knee. He gets the hips loaded with this move, so they can unload. He hit the ball out front, as he pulled it and since he hit it at max extension, I would bet it went a long way.

A great talent who has the other tools to go with the bat.....he also has about 6 mill in his pocket.4 frames to contact too. Outstanding.

Thanks for the clip of Juston Upton Jerry. It is a real good one and I have saved it on my computer.
Last edited by bbscout
I Infopimp100+ posts
He loads that knee, but what he really does is deeper than that.

Tell a kid to load his knee like Upton does and you may not get a similar result.

He loads the pelvis (no secret or surprise) but what he does with this load is what sets him apart. Not the load itself. IMHO.

Study that belt loop above his left leg. Watch it. How does it move? Where does it go? How did it get there?
Last edited by Infopimp
B bbscout1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Infopimp:
He loads that knee, but what he really does is deeper than that.

Tell a kid to load his knee like Upton does and you may not get a similar result.

He loads the pelvis (no secret or surprise) but what he does with this load is what sets him apart. Not the load itself. IMHO.

Study that belt loop above his left leg. Watch it. How does it move? Where does it go? How did it get there?


I think that we agree about loading being important. How you get there is what we may disagree on. I like the way Upton gets there, and he does it with the c o c k ing of his knee. He does it with a stride move and Pujols does it with a non-stride move.....but they both c o c k the knee to get the hips (middle-pelvis-whatever) loaded.

He then unloads it real well and hammers the ball.
N NYdad500+ posts
I'm a bit puzzled and seek clarification regarding contact at max extension. Was my understanding that the optimum point of contact/impact is the front foot as such is the area where maximum batspeed is acheived during rotation. Therefore, wouldn't contact at max extension be during the deceleration process? Thanks in advance.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
You guys sure know a good swingand hitter when you see it. Thought maybe I could fool you. Guess you could say that it's a $6.1 million swing.

This was Justin's last swing of BP and he tried to crank it. The ball went out of the stadium over the street which is estimated 450' away. His normal swing is just a bit more effortless though he does everything the same. His normal swing looks smooth as silk and easy, but the ball jumps off his bat like a rocket.

Shep, The other guy signed as a FA for $2,000, you could get over 3,000 just like him for what they paid Upton.

I was going to keep quiet until later, but turntwo and BBscout spilled the beans. Smile You guys are good!
B bbscout1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NYdad:
I'm a bit puzzled and seek clarification regarding contact at max extension. Was my understanding that the optimum point of contact/impact is the front foot as such is the area where maximum batspeed is acheived during rotation. Therefore, wouldn't contact at max extension be during the deceleration process? Thanks in advance.


Bat speed peaks at extension. That does not mean that it is the ideal place to hit every pitch as not every pitch is a middle in BP pitch that you can pull and hit a long way like the one Upton hit. Most of the time you are trying to hit tough pitches that are in various spots in the strike zone and letting the ball get a little bit deeper in the strike zone will enable you to do that, so most of the time you are not making contact at full extension.

Just a hair longer than full extension and you are now slowing down bat speed quikly and nearing a lunge situation. That being said, the longest home runs come at the precise moment of full extension.....McGwire did that the most often of the hitters that I have seen, but he was also just a fair hitter. Bonds lets the ball travel to him better than McGwire and is a much better hitter, but could not hit the ball as far as McGwire.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
It could be said that Pujols strides without striding. He uses his left foot to create timing and weight momentum without taking a traditional stride. Obviously it works very well for him, but I think his swing would be very close to exactly the same with or without the stride. There have been great hitters who actually take a negative stride (Bagwell for one), That has always kind of confused me. Of course, the negative striders almost always come out of a very wide stance. So they are still loading and then getting to the hitting position they want to be in, the stride foot just ends up short of where it started. Then you have the toe tappers that we seem to see more of these days. Bottom line is nearly all the good hitters do similar things in the next phase of the swing.
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
quote:
Midlo is totally off track on the bat wrap thing.


Maybe not...

when you over c-ock your hands you might be less dependant on good segmentation as a power driver.

I like his lower body move. I like cocking the hands but if posted him by TED you would see less segmentation for sure. He is more one piece than I like.

I would change his hand set to more Pujols like and slow them down in relation to his hips and see what would happen if I was his coach..( in a dream maybe)

He can be helped because he has a good base but his hands do not stay back and that can be helped with positioning .

As you would imagine It would put him more BHUT or teach him a loading pattern.

Right now I bet he is all about the pull side
Last edited by swingbuster
I Infopimp100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by swingbuster:
quote:
Midlo is totally off track on the bat wrap thing.


Maybe not...

when you over c-ock your hands you might be less dependant on good segmentation as a power driver.

I like his lower body move. I like cocking the hands but if posted him by TED you would see less segmentation for sure. He is more one piece than I like.

I would change his hand set to more Pujols like and slow them down in relation to his hips and see what would happen if I was his coach..( in a dream maybe)

He can be helped because he has a good base but his hands do not stay back and that can be helped with positioning .

As you would imagine It would put him more BHUT or teach him a loading pattern.

Right now I bet he is all about the pull side


Your name is fitting. You propose to take a great young hitter and bust him because he doesn't fit your theory.

You never consider the fact (truth) that your theory is garbage.

When video of the best can't convince you nothing will. But, please, stop hurting kids by offering garbage advice.
Last edited by Infopimp
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Shep,

Not sure who it is, but after reading your post, I asked the guy who shot the video, who that hitter was. He said it was a Latin kid who signed for $2,000. The guy who shot the video knows these players real well. I'll try to find out what his name is and let you know. You never mentioned your thoughts on Upton's swing, what do you think?
B bbscout1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Infopimp:
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
He uses his left foot to create timing and weight momentum without taking a traditional stride...


No he doesn't.

You're watching the result, not the cause.


As far as the "timing" goes, I agree with Jerry's take on Pujols......in fact, it goes with all the other big league hitters too. The front foot and leg are used as a timing device by the great hitters. That is why there are no hitters in the big leagues who hit with their front foot flat on the ground from start to finish.Good timing is the most important thing a hitter can have, and the lead leg is a big part of the timing of the pitch.

The lead leg can also move to help load up the hips as Upton and many other great hitters do.
Last edited by bbscout
F FlippJ1,000+ posts
Nice clip PGStaff! It's a very quick swing for a player with a very bright future. The first time I saw it I thought it was Justin Upton but I wasn't 100% sure. It reminded me of the Draft video I'd seen of him on MLB.com last year. I don't remember him having a stride in that video though.

I like his lower body. The movement reminds me of Alex Rodriguez (aka ARod) although his knee lift isn't as high as ARod's. IMO the knee lift/c-ock is a good way to load the middle as long as you maintain tension in the back leg so the weight doesn't drift over the back foot.

His upper body isn't bad either. His hands turn with his shoulders and his barrel gets into the hitting zone very quickly.

If you get any game footage of him hitting in the future please post it. Smile

Thanks!

Jason
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
Infopimp, a question:

Can you explain your theory on the bat wrap being a good thing?

I'll start by saying, I absolutely agree with your thought that you don't mess with success. Seeing just one swing in isolation, not knowing who it was, I could see some departures from things I've heard consistently from several pro instructors, pro players, et al. But if I'd seen the ball fly 450', my next thought would've been to leave that kid alone and let him hit!

But this is the HIGH SCHOOL Baseball Web site, and so my question is, is bat wrapping something that the average high school player should do? If you're not in the Upton family gene pool, meaning you have only average reflex speed for a local athlete, can you pull this off? Or would you instruct the average player, who's just trying to do well on his varsity team, to use a shorter stroke?

One of the things I'm wondering is, what did the scouts see in Upton that got him the $6 million? Was it his swing mechanics, or just his God-given abilities?

I would appreciate an answer that doesn't open up a whole lot of denigration of the other coaches my son and I have dealt with. (Surely we've seen enough of those kinds of posts on this site already.) I will tell you flat out that what they teach works. But I also do believe that there is not just one way to do anything -- several different theories may well achieve success, esp. if the player is willing to practice enough to master them.

But your theory (a) is new to me, and (b) obviously works at least for Upton, so I would offer you this opportunity to give me an education. Just avoid the insults this time, please.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
quote:
One of the things I'm wondering is, what did the scouts see in Upton that got him the $6 million? Was it his swing mechanics, or just his God-given abilities?


Midlo,

Not much I know for sure, but sure can answer that question!

++ runner, ran a 6.2 something 60 at one of our events. ++ arm, threw 94 from the mound and in the 90s across the infield. His arm action has always been more suited for the outfield and he's now playing centerfield. He has easy power, balls leave his bat at tremendous velocity. Rather than continue... I can safely say 6 million of the 6.1 million was paid for his god given ability. That's usually the way it works!
T tom.guerry100+ posts
Timing is a very difficult/complex thing to tease out.

In the end, the player has to automate it by practice and experience and then execute it in the game pressure cooker.

I think that the most consistent/best "adaptors" do so by better coil/uncoil dynamics with the automatic timing adjustment built into how the body coils and uncoils.

The best hint I have found about where the biggest control point for this might be is in golf where BOBBY JONES speculates that it is utimately the back arm/hand that controls swing timing.

The front leg is basically the slave to the back arm, so I think this fits with Doug's front foot timing emphasis.

The back arm lead loading/coil action in the highest pattern swing is the primary setter of swing radius and synchronizes the upper and lower body action to control coil.

When the swing decision is made, the front side/lead arm/ bottom hand takes over and the back arm/top hand is relegated to a different role so that the top hand is then saved for late in the swing near contact, not used to try to hit early/prematurely.

The role in between load and contact of the top hand/back arm has primarily to do with staying with the back shoulder and setting the height of the back shoulder to then work with the lead arm in producing the swing trajectory.
Last edited by tom.guerry
I Infopimp100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
Infopimp, a question:

Can you explain your theory on the bat wrap being a good thing?

I'll start by saying, I absolutely agree with your thought that you don't mess with success. Seeing just one swing in isolation, not knowing who it was, I could see some departures from things I've heard consistently from several pro instructors, pro players, et al. But if I'd seen the ball fly 450', my next thought would've been to leave that kid alone and let him hit!

But this is the HIGH SCHOOL Baseball Web site, and so my question is, is bat wrapping something that the average high school player should do? If you're not in the Upton family gene pool, meaning you have only average reflex speed for a local athlete, can you pull this off? Or would you instruct the average player, who's just trying to do well on his varsity team, to use a shorter stroke?

One of the things I'm wondering is, what did the scouts see in Upton that got him the $6 million? Was it his swing mechanics, or just his God-given abilities?

I would appreciate an answer that doesn't open up a whole lot of denigration of the other coaches my son and I have dealt with. (Surely we've seen enough of those kinds of posts on this site already.) I will tell you flat out that what they teach works. But I also do believe that there is not just one way to do anything -- several different theories may well achieve success, esp. if the player is willing to practice enough to master them.

But your theory (a) is new to me, and (b) obviously works at least for Upton, so I would offer you this opportunity to give me an education. Just avoid the insults this time, please.


Video your son or whoever you work with.

Compare that video to Upton.

When does your son's bat blur in the video?

When does Upton's bat blur?

If your son's bat blurs later, why?

If you think you can get early batspeed without some kind of wrap/c o c k, go for it.

If you think you can hit the ball deep in the zone without some kind of wrap/c o c k, go for it.

Your son has to think his hands back. Uptons are always back.

scout

I disagree that the timing is in the stride and the foot. It's in the pelvis which is controlling the stride and the foot.
Last edited by Infopimp
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
info,

You could teach a million players the "mechanics" but there's only been one sign for 6.1 million.

A guy with no natural ability and great mechanics... What's he worth in the draft?

I guess my previous statement which gives that guy 100 grand was out of line. Because great mechanics, by themselves, do not create great tools and so he might not be worth a plug nickel in the draft! Wink
I Infopimp100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
A guy with no natural ability


A little stretch wouldn't you say?

You can use a stud to prove your argument.

I have to use someone with NO ability to prove mine.

Keep the field level please.

Tell, Carl Lewis to swing a bat....see what you get.

What tools does David Eckstein have?

How about Nick Johnson? Chipper? Will Clark? Albert Pujols?

I would say they have pretty sweet hitting mechanics and not so many tools.
Last edited by Infopimp
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