throwing mechanics

quote:

Originally posted by johnny appleseed:
Is there an advantage to getting your elbow above your shoulder when throwing? Do you get more velocity when throwing this way?

And so the debate begins (again)...

I don't think so.

While some hard throwers (e.g. John Smoltz and Bob Feller) do this, others like...

- Nolan Ryan
- Roger Clemens
- Randy Johnson
- Bob Gibson
- Sandy Koufax

...do not.

I would argue that, since getting the elbow above the level of the shoulders isn't something that every hard thrower does, then it's not necessary to throwing hard.

However, not everyone agrees with me on that.

Painguy...When people talk about the elbow being above the shoulder, they mean just that. They are not talking about drawing a line when the shoulders are tilted.

As far as Koufax having his left elbow above his left shoulder.....it is well above it.....period.

Sandy Koufax

nobody mentioned anything about the level of the shoulders, just if the elbow is higher than the shoulder, which it is.

Actually, the original poster didn't explicitly state whether he was talking about the elbow being farther from the ground than the shoulder (bbs) or the elbow being above the plane of the shoulders (tpg).

Often, but not always, when people use the phrase "elbow above your shoulder" they are referring to the latter.

It would be helpful if the poster would clarify.

appleseed

quote:

Is there an advantage to getting your elbow above your shoulder when throwing? Do you get more velocity when throwing this way?

I depends on how your arm stroke and delivery is currently working for you...any way you could post a clip of yourself pitching or descripe in detail what you are currently trying to due with your delivery?

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Actually, the original poster didn't explicitly state whether he was talking about the elbow being farther from the ground than the shoulder (bbs) or the elbow being above the plane of the shoulders (tpg).

Often, but not always, when people use the phrase "elbow above your shoulder" they are referring to the latter.

This is my experience, too.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
As far as Koufax having his left elbow above his left shoulder.....it is well above it.....period.

I agree that most pitchers, except for sidearmers like Randy Johnson, get their elbows up at the release point. They do this by tilting their shoulders.

This is how you throw from a higher arm slot.

The same thing is true of submariners. They tilt their shoulders the opposite way so that their elbow, and their arm slot, is low.

Here's a photo of Jeff Suppan doing this so that he throws from a 3/4 arm slot...



However, notice that the elbow is below the level of the shoulders (the white line in the photo which is drawn across the top of the Acromial processes).

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
This is my experience, too.

Tell us about your experience.

Chameleon, do you own a pool hall in the St. Louis area?

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
This is my experience, too.

Tell us about your experience.

Chameleon you have a PM.

No

Got your message wrstdude. I replied.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
This is my experience, too.

Tell us about your experience.

I am involved in scouting at the major league level.

I am working as a regional pitching cross checker (for a team that I cannot name), helping them prepare for the 2007 draft. The guy I am working with wants to see if I can help him find the Greg Maddux's and stay away from the Mark Prior's and the Kerry Wood's.

How does that compare to your credentials?

Chris

I know who you are and I know the flimsy nature of all that scouting bs you put out there.

I have the inside info, Chris.

Stop.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
I know who you are and I know the flimsy nature of all that scouting bs you put out there. I have the inside info, Chris.

While you may think that what I am doing is "flimsy" and "BS", multiple people at the major league level (both current scouts and former players) do not and have told me as much over the phone. While I haven't yet convinced them that I'm correct, they are interested in what I have to say.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
Stop.

Last I checked, this was a free country.

However, I will do you a favor. When I discuss something that is still up for debate, I will make that clear as I did in my original post.

I'll let the quality of that rebuttal speak for itself.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
This is my experience, too.

Tell us about your experience.

I am involved in scouting at the major league level.

I am working as a regional pitching cross checker (for a team that I cannot name), helping them prepare for the 2007 draft. The guy I am working with wants to see if I can help him find the Greg Maddux's and stay away from the Mark Prior's and the Kerry Wood's.

How does that compare to your credentials?

You can always show your guy the clip of you throwing an imaginary ball in the back yard. That should solidify your credentials with him. The truth is that you have no credentials.

quote:

However, notice that the elbow is below the level of the shoulders (the white line in the photo which is drawn across the top of the Acromial processes).

Posts: 594 | Location: St.

TG this shows you don't know what you are talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:

quote:

However, notice that the elbow is below the level of the shoulders (the white line in the photo which is drawn across the top of the Acromial processes).

TPG this shows you don't know what you are talking about.

What exactly do I have wrong?

Here's a video clip of Suppan throwing. You can see the same thing going on. He drives his Glove Side elbow to his Glove Side hip, which helps to tilt his shoulders and raise his release point (while keeping his Pitching Arm Side elbow below the level of his shoulders).



You can see the same thing happen in bbscout's rear view of Greg Maddux.

This clip of Wainwright shows this very clearly. Watch him tilt his shoulders as they rotate so that he can raise his arm slot and get more of a 12-6 movement on his curveball.

You have the point at which a high elbow wrong. When both arms are extended and you are loading to come forward the elbows are at or slightly higher than the shouders. Your shouders tilt as you drive forward. Yes you GS sholders drop as you (come to the glove) or pull your glove arm back to the arm pit area. How do you expect to throw hard if you do not drop that shoulder.
High elbows are at what I call the goal post point in the delivery. The concept is you will keep your elbow in a less stressful plane as you drive forward and get max force allowing you to stay on top of the ball.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
When both arms are extended and you are loading to come forward the elbows are at or slightly higher than the shouders. Your shouders tilt as you drive forward. Yes you GS sholders drop as you (come to the glove) or pull your glove arm back to the arm pit area...High elbows are at what I call the goal post point in the delivery. The concept is you will keep your elbow in a less stressful plane as you drive forward and get max force allowing you to stay on top of the ball.

While some people like John Smoltz do in fact do what you describe...



...many other great pitchers do not.

Randy Johnson clearly does not do that. After breaking his hands, his elbows never reach the level of his shoulders...



The same thing is true for Roger Clemens...



...and for Greg Maddux.

You might have a case with Nolan Ryan, but that's debatable...



Johnson, Ryan, and Clemens throw plenty hard, which makes me believe that what you are describing is not necessary to throwing either hard or well.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
[QUOTE]

This clip of Wainwright shows this very clearly. Watch him tilt his shoulders as they rotate so that he can raise his arm slot and get more of a 12-6 movement on his curveball.

I'm surprised you didn't complain about his high throwing elbow.

A guy could get hurt throwing like that

quote:

Originally posted by RobV:
I'm surprised you didn't complain about his high throwing elbow.

I am concerned about Wainwright's shoulder given that he's been moved into the starting rotation, but I'm trying to stay away from that whole can of worms.

TG all of those pitchers get their elbows up. I am not sure what you are looking at.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
TG all of those pitchers get their elbows up. I am not sure what you are looking at.

As in this photo...



Randy Johnson's Pitching Arm Side elbow never gets above the level of his shoulders as his Pitching Arm Side forearm passes through the high cocked position (but they are at the level of his shoulders at the release point).



The same things is true of Greg Maddux...



As his Pitching Arm Side forearm passes through the high cocked position (e.g. near vertical) his elbows are below the level of his shoulders.

In contrast, Adam Wainwright's Pitching Arm Side elbow is much higher than Maddux's or Johnson's as it passes through the vertical high cocked position...



IMO that is a small and subtle, but still important, difference.

The top photo is by many coaches, poor mechanics. He has rotated too far back which brings his elbows down at the start but as Randy does he may bring them up as he goes forward.
I have seen pitching coaches stop young pitchers from rotating back that far.
The asumption you are making is that all successful ML pitchers have good mechanics. ????

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
The top photo is by many coaches, poor mechanics. He has rotated too far back which brings his elbows down at the start but as Randy does he may bring them up as he goes forward. I have seen pitching coaches stop young pitchers from rotating back that far.

This is going to blow some people away, but I would argue that the photos of Randy Johnson below show absolutely textbook mechanics. This is a pattern that I look for when evaluating a prospect.







In each photo you can see the scapular loading occurring, but with the elbows BELOW the level of the shoulders rather than ABOVE the level of the shoulders as in the case of Mark Prior.

You can see the exact same thing in this photo of Greg Maddux.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
The asumption you are making is that all successful ML pitchers have good mechanics. ????

I agree that I am making that assumption. I believe that is why they have long, successful careers.

Not all ML pitchers (e.g. Mark Prior) have those same solid mechanics, which is why not everyone lasts 20+ years.

My Doctor made a very good living off many top ML pitchers including Randy.

quote:

This is a pattern that I look for when evaluating a prospect.

What team employs your services?

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
My Doctor made a very good living off many top ML pitchers including Randy.

While Randy Johnson has had back and knee problems, those don't bother me because they aren't necessarily related to pitching. What I look for when evaluating a guy's injury history and his mechanics is shoulder and elbow problems, and Johnson has been free of those.

I would argue that the things you see in the photos above of Randy Johnson, and in particular the elbows below the level of the shoulders, helps to explain why his pitching arm has been healthy.

I also don't think it's a coincidence that Greg Maddux's mechanics are similar and that he too has been injury free.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:

quote:

This is a pattern that I look for when evaluating a prospect.

What team employs your services?

Sorry, but I can't say.

bobble

quote:

The top photo is by many coaches, poor mechanics. He has rotated too far back which brings his elbows down at the start but as Randy does he may bring them up as he goes forward.

quote:

Sorry, but I can't say.

There are no secret scouts... spill the beans!

bobble

quote:

My Doctor made a very good living off many top ML pitchers including Randy.

Ill bet his living was no were near as good as the pitchers he worked on.....

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
There are no secret scouts... spill the beans!

I'm sorry, but I really can't say.

I'm currently acting in a consulting capacity, and I promised my contact that I would not reveal his name or the name of the team he works for since my ideas are somewhat controversial.

That way he's got no exposure if I turn out to be crazy.

I least say what your title is...

TG I have been to many instructional camps put on by ML coaches and scouts. In the process they break down the mechanics into stages. If a pitcher rotates back like that they stop them and tell them to go back towards 2nd and not to rotate their shoulders back. They also make sure their elbows are up. What you are showing is not low elbows as they come forward. If you think an inch (2.5 MM) is low elbow you can believe what you like. All I know is that several of these guys paid my Doctor visits before he moved on to NASCAR a few years ago. He still gets calls from them but now its Jimmy instaed of Randy.

TG they are not your ideas as mine are not mine.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
I least say what your title is...

I am working as a regional pitching cross checker (in a consulting capacity).

My contact is a regional cross checker (which is a very senior role just below scouting director). He sends me clips of all the pitchers that filter up to him and I give him my opinion of their mechanics. In particular, I tell him how long I think their arms will hold up based on whether their mechanics resemble those of Greg Maddux or Mark Prior (or somewhere in between).

I know of at least one other ML team (the Cardinals) that is doing something similar.

What is going on is that owners are getting sick and tired of signing guys only to have them sit on the bench for a year or more. The Moneyball guys haven't figured this out with PAP or PAP3, so teams are turning to guys who analyze the mechanics of pitchers and look for critical differences between the Greg Maddux's and the Mark Prior's. That is what the other guy that I know of is doing.

TG they had better take a pill because it is never going to change I don't care how good your mechanics are.
Some guys are durable for some reason and others are not. Good mechanics will help but not a gaurentee.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
TG I have been to many instructional camps put on by ML coaches and scouts. In the process they break down the mechanics into stages. If a pitcher rotates back like that they stop them and tell them to go back towards 2nd and not to rotate their shoulders back.

What I am talking about is different than reverse-rotating the shoulders, which is something that guys like Jered Weaver do (e.g. turning your back to the hitter and breaking your hands toward 1B for a RHP). Randy Johnson doesn't reverse-rotate his shoulders that much, as the clip below shows...

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
They also make sure their elbows are up.

I think this is questionable advice. It's certainly not what Randy Johnson and Greg Maddux do.

Also, while Randy Johnson's elbows are low at this point, they are not low at the release point as this still and the clip above shows.