Throwing too much versus not throwing enough

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Of those requiring surgery the average fastball velocity amongst these youth was 83 mph. Of those studied 73% were over the 80 mph mark.

Is it because they throw 80+ or is it since they throw 80+ and get kids out, they pitch too frequently and too far into games?

When the sun comes up, the rooster crows. But is it the only reason he crows?

Kids don't throw nearly enough but pitchers tend to pitch too much (games, bullpens, lessons,etc)at young ages in particular. Pretty strong believer that the intensity of pitching kills arms.

GBM,
You forgot to mention that ASMI frowns upon backyard throwing after the game. Did you just discover ASMI?

I agree with jd, you use justification for things you beleive in, often.

Best of luck, hope that you never have to look back and wish you had done things differently.

I have known about ASMI for several years.

I think it is important to note that it is not the actual pitch counts that we disagree upon, just the frequency of when they "pitch".

Take a closer for a MLB team, he may be called upon to pitch almost every day as long as he only pitches a little bit. His frequency is quicker than a starter because he keeps a low pitch count and can recover quicker.

I see my sons situation as being very similar because he doesn't pitch a lot in games or in practice sessions. He can rebound much quicker because he isn't getting as fatigued as someone who has high pitch counts.

I am not sure on the exactness of it but I think that the LL organization has adopted a pitch count frequency based off of what they believe is safe. Under those guidelines they allow no rest period for pitchers who pitch like 25 or less pitches in a game. What they are worried about is pitchers who pitch a lot in a game and then play in another league or game and pitch a lot again while they are fatigued.

I am not sure of if any studies have been done on recovery time in pitchers arms and how much recovery time they need according to how much they throw. I do know this- When my son is allowed to pitch an inning or two in a game and then come back and pitch again an hour or two later he almost always picks up range of motion, control and velocity the second time he pitches.

I do also know this and I do not fully know why, but it is interesting- When my sons arm starts to get sore from throwing if he goes and does batting practice and then resumes throwing afterwards the pain goes away quicker rather than just having him rest. I don't know if it is the increased blood flow or if his arm was just cramping up or what but motion and movement seems to always help speed up the recovery process.

I am not sure if you are trying to convince us or yourself what you are doing is the right thing.

Why do you come and post but then argue when the majority does not agree with your methods?

Do not compare your 13 year old to what a MLB relief pitcher does. That's ridiculous.

I am not understanding this one, why does someone pull a 13 year old from a game after 1 or 2 batters? Perhaps he did too much backyard throwing the night before? Or perhaps he is not performing to your expectations at that moment.

Lots of things I don't agree with, not just frequency of pitching.

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Do not compare your 13 year old to what a MLB relief pitcher does. That's ridiculous.

Why not, in similar ways kids mimick professional pitchers- they both throw fastballs and off speed pitches. They both get warmed up beofre an outing. They both throw at or near their limits. They both have similar mechanics if not the same mechanics. And on and on and on....

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I am not understanding this one, why does someone pull a 13 year old from a game after 1 or 2 batters? Perhaps he did too much backyard throwing the night before? Or perhaps he is not performing to your expectations at that moment.

It was a few years ago and he just didn't look like he was himself. Nice try on the backyard throwing bite but no take!

I don't think we will ever agree. Lets just move on.

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Is it because they throw 80+ or is it since they throw 80+ and get kids out, they pitch too frequently and too far into games?

All of the above. Any kid who throws above 80+ is going to be a good pitcher and as such will want to pitch more than others or will get called upon more than others to pitch.

I remeber a kid a few years back in HS who as a sophmore entering his junior year was a mid 80's kid with excellent mound presence and control. Over the coarse of that year and the next he threw way too much and his velocity stagnated and then fell off. At the time I remeber thinking that is not what I want my kid to become- the coaches hero to come into every game and try to win or save it. Luckily the kid took some time off and threw later and I heard he was hitting 90+ at a local camp tryout.

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Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I am not sure on the exactness of it but I think that the LL organization has adopted a pitch count frequency based off of what they believe is safe. Under those guidelines they allow no rest period for pitchers who pitch like 25 or less pitches in a game. What they are worried about is pitchers who pitch a lot in a game and then play in another league or game and pitch a lot again while they are fatigued.

The LL rules are a bit different than you imagine, and only loosely related to arm health. A pitcher who has 20 or fewer pitches can pitch the following day. From 21 to 40 pitches, there are two options, either one day or two days of rest. The BOD has to choose one or the other option before the season begins. There are increasing amounts of required rest for more pitches in a game, with option two being more restrictive. Also, for more than 41 pitches, the pitcher is not allowed to throw against the stairs play the position of catcher for the rest of the day.

Those are the rules for the regular season. In tournaments play, up to 20 pitches requires no rest. 21-45 requires only one day of rest, but the pitcher is ineligible for the next game, no matter how many days elapse. More than 46 pitches means 2 days of rest and ineligible for the next game, but more than 41 means no catching (I think).

These rules are for the 2009 season; last year the rules tended to be more restrictive.

The point here is that LL pitching regulations are partly inspired by a desire for safety, partly to encourage player participation, and largely to not aggravate the parents and coaches by restricting pitching. The variation in the above rules, depending on which option is chosen, and if it is all-star time or not, should tell you that LL isn't focussed solely on the pitcher's health.

Are these limits based on some study or recommendation, by ASMI or other body? Nope, they are based on surveys and represent a balance between minimizing the number of allowed pitches and avoiding a parent/coach revolt.

I'll also point out that ASMI have as yet not made any recommendation for the number of pitches for players 13 years and above. Instead a survey was done some years ago, and ASMI simply lists the concensus limits from that survey. That's because there is no objective basis for definitive limits. Ain't nobody knows for sure, but most of us do have an opinion.

“Ain't nobody knows for sure”

Aint true! Somebody knows for sure!! But as with all past scientific discovery people have a hard time believing in it but have an easy time believing in what they can’t see.

Wow Yardbird, not complaining, but I think that is by far your shortest post ever.