GBM,
Seems to me you come here with a lot of scenerios and questions, you don't get the support you want. Your experience is that of coaching 13 year olds up to this point. No matter what theories you come up with, you don't have enough experience to "practice" them. Do what you wish with your own, don't mess with other people's kids.
You do keep saying that your son doesn't pitch in many games, but pitches about 125 pitches per week.
I do not agree that is the right thing for a growing child. Keep that in mind, he is STILL growing. That may be just about what my full grown 23 year old throws in a week on teh professional level.
Seems to me you come here with a lot of scenerios and questions, you don't get the support you want. Your experience is that of coaching 13 year olds up to this point. No matter what theories you come up with, you don't have enough experience to "practice" them. Do what you wish with your own, don't mess with other people's kids.
You do keep saying that your son doesn't pitch in many games, but pitches about 125 pitches per week.
I do not agree that is the right thing for a growing child. Keep that in mind, he is STILL growing. That may be just about what my full grown 23 year old throws in a week on teh professional level.
From my exprience most people are too timid to throw as much as they should. I am a junior in high school and I long toss every day, not extreme but most kids don't do it. My arm never gets sore and never hurts. And I can throw as many pitches in a game as I need to. IMO throwing every day is the most important thing, taking off sunday. It is listening to your arm and knowing when to stop that is the key. I believe that not throwing enough leads to just as many, or more, injuries as throwing too much.
quote:From my exprience most people are too timid to throw as much as they should. I am a junior in high school and I long toss every day, not extreme but most kids don't do it. My arm never gets sore and never hurts. And I can throw as many pitches in a game as I need to. IMO throwing every day is the most important thing, taking off sunday. It is listening to your arm and knowing when to stop that is the key. I believe that not throwing enough leads to just as many, or more, injuries as throwing too much.
"A good pitcher wins when he's on. A Great pitcher gets the job done when he's not."
I agree fully!
quote:GBM,
Seems to me you come here with a lot of scenerios and questions, you don't get the support you want. Your experience is that of coaching 13 year olds up to this point. No matter what theories you come up with, you don't have enough experience to "practice" them. Do what you wish with your own, don't mess with other people's kids.
You do keep saying that your son doesn't pitch in many games, but pitches about 125 pitches per week.
I do not agree that is the right thing for a growing child. Keep that in mind, he is STILL growing. That may be just about what my full grown 23 year old throws in a week on teh professional level.
Thanks for the advice but I will keep doing what I feel works.
Btw, if your own son pitches 125 or less a week including his off day bullpens then he must never get asked to pitch. I seriously doubt that if he is a real pitcher that he throws that little in a week unless he is just a one inning reliever.
This will get you going---senior college pitcher in the Northeast D-III regional threw over 500 pitches in the past week
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Btw, if your own son pitches 125 or less a week including his off day bullpens then he must never get asked to pitch. I seriously doubt that if he is a real pitcher that he throws that little in a week unless he is just a one inning reliever.
Oh my goodness GBM, now you have revealed that you have not really read much here. You just like to spew out what you THINK may work.
Probably (and most likely)if we did what you are doing, player may not have gotten this far.
Think it over real carefully what you might be doing.....
http://web.minorleaguebaseball...3&t=p_pbp&pid=446332
quote:Oh my goodness GBM, now you have revealed that you have not really read much here. You just like to spew out what you THINK may work.
Probably (and most likely)if we did what you are doing, player may not have gotten this far.
Think it over real carefully what you might be doing.....
Is this your son?
Just from noticing his stats, I would be guessing that he averages about a 12-15 pitch count per inning with an average of around 5 per game. At this rate he pitches 60-75 in a game not including pre-game warmup in the bullpen of another 30-45 pitches minimum. I would also asume that at some point on his off days he throws some in the bullpen. If we add that to him doing this 5 days later (same week) then he is well over the 125 that my son pitches. In fact I would bet it is about double if you truly account for "all" pitches thrown including pregame warmup bullpen and off day bullpen.
The 125 pitch count that I state with son includes off day bullpen.
TPM,
BTW, kid has great stats, must be very proud of him!
We may just be misunderstanding each other on actual process of pitch "counting".
BTW, kid has great stats, must be very proud of him!
We may just be misunderstanding each other on actual process of pitch "counting".
GBM,
Son just recently went to a 5 day rotation, before that he was on a piggyback, start one game, with controlled pitch count, off day, BP, off day, relieve with a smaller pitch count not to exceed a certain amount.
Now at 5 day start only rotation (just beginning), he still has a pitch count. One BP in between, every day he tosses.
Am not counting warmup pitches, which are only 8 allowed max per inning. So I am guessing at this point in the season, on his new rotation it would be more, but certainly not anyway you think. Plus BP's are dependent upon what you did that week in your game. He does not pitch two games in the same day or go home at night and throw again because his pitch count was low. It's spread out, over a certain time period, got that.
Regardless, son is 10 years older, conditioned as an athelete and done growing.
Yes, you have your son in a controlled situation, you watch his count in games, that's ok, you have indicated that his arm is in use everyday for baseball for 6 months, you beleive that to strenghten arm it should be from the mound, often at max effort, I do not agree. He's THIRTEEN. Do you not get that?
Son just recently went to a 5 day rotation, before that he was on a piggyback, start one game, with controlled pitch count, off day, BP, off day, relieve with a smaller pitch count not to exceed a certain amount.
Now at 5 day start only rotation (just beginning), he still has a pitch count. One BP in between, every day he tosses.
Am not counting warmup pitches, which are only 8 allowed max per inning. So I am guessing at this point in the season, on his new rotation it would be more, but certainly not anyway you think. Plus BP's are dependent upon what you did that week in your game. He does not pitch two games in the same day or go home at night and throw again because his pitch count was low. It's spread out, over a certain time period, got that.
Regardless, son is 10 years older, conditioned as an athelete and done growing.
Yes, you have your son in a controlled situation, you watch his count in games, that's ok, you have indicated that his arm is in use everyday for baseball for 6 months, you beleive that to strenghten arm it should be from the mound, often at max effort, I do not agree. He's THIRTEEN. Do you not get that?
TPM,
Seriously, I think we just do not understand each other- not in a bad way, just in a difference of perceptions. I perceive that you perceive me as throwing my son at a max effort "as much" as he can stand, of the which I am not even close to doing.
I am way more conservative on the "safe" side when it comes to pitching than you may realize. Where we may differ is in what constitutes "high pitch counts" or even "rest period" as per age and effort involved.
I will readily agree with you that a 23 yr. old pitcher in the pros as a starter should only throw every 4-5 days in a game. This is because of the effort involved more than anything. Throwing pitches at 90mph or above over the coarse of 5-7 innings in a game requires a lot of energy and effort and as such requires some rest time before throwing again.
But in my sons case it is the same and yet different. Because of the "pitch count" and effort involved for his age, he could very easily be described as a "reliever" by big league standards. For instance-
Last week went like this- On Tuesday he threw a light bullpen from the mound at practice. This involved 10-15 throws building up to his full velocity (after he had already warmed up throwing, running and stretching with the team) and then he does a best out of 10 fastball throws in the zone. Then we worked an inning with me calling location and pitch type (about 15 pitches total). So, if we total all pitches including his warm-ups then he pitched 40 pitches. The next day they worked on defense with him at short-stop (didn't pitch, just threw). Thursday they had a scrimmage game and he came on in relief and pitched 2 innings. His pitch count in both innings were 31 pitches. They had Friday off and son threw at home against stairs for a while. Saturday they had a double-header and he started the first game and threw 2 innings and was relieved by our #3 guy because of a big lead we had opened up. In that game he threw a total of 36 pitches. He then moved to first for the rest of the game. In game two he moved to short-stop and stayed there the remaining time.
If I was to only count actual "game" pitches then he only threw 67 pitches all week! But this is not how I count. I count all pitches "thrown from the mound" excluding pre-inning warm-up pitches. So, if I add the practice bullpen of 40 plus the 67 game pitches then he threw 107 pitches from "the mound" last week.
This btw, is within little league regulations for their safety guide! Even the LL world series teams pitch their kids more than I pitch my kid, and they are an internationally sanctioned baseball association recognized by the world.
Seriously, I think we just do not understand each other- not in a bad way, just in a difference of perceptions. I perceive that you perceive me as throwing my son at a max effort "as much" as he can stand, of the which I am not even close to doing.
I am way more conservative on the "safe" side when it comes to pitching than you may realize. Where we may differ is in what constitutes "high pitch counts" or even "rest period" as per age and effort involved.
I will readily agree with you that a 23 yr. old pitcher in the pros as a starter should only throw every 4-5 days in a game. This is because of the effort involved more than anything. Throwing pitches at 90mph or above over the coarse of 5-7 innings in a game requires a lot of energy and effort and as such requires some rest time before throwing again.
But in my sons case it is the same and yet different. Because of the "pitch count" and effort involved for his age, he could very easily be described as a "reliever" by big league standards. For instance-
Last week went like this- On Tuesday he threw a light bullpen from the mound at practice. This involved 10-15 throws building up to his full velocity (after he had already warmed up throwing, running and stretching with the team) and then he does a best out of 10 fastball throws in the zone. Then we worked an inning with me calling location and pitch type (about 15 pitches total). So, if we total all pitches including his warm-ups then he pitched 40 pitches. The next day they worked on defense with him at short-stop (didn't pitch, just threw). Thursday they had a scrimmage game and he came on in relief and pitched 2 innings. His pitch count in both innings were 31 pitches. They had Friday off and son threw at home against stairs for a while. Saturday they had a double-header and he started the first game and threw 2 innings and was relieved by our #3 guy because of a big lead we had opened up. In that game he threw a total of 36 pitches. He then moved to first for the rest of the game. In game two he moved to short-stop and stayed there the remaining time.
If I was to only count actual "game" pitches then he only threw 67 pitches all week! But this is not how I count. I count all pitches "thrown from the mound" excluding pre-inning warm-up pitches. So, if I add the practice bullpen of 40 plus the 67 game pitches then he threw 107 pitches from "the mound" last week.
This btw, is within little league regulations for their safety guide! Even the LL world series teams pitch their kids more than I pitch my kid, and they are an internationally sanctioned baseball association recognized by the world.
I did some research into pitching injury and found some interesting advice from ASMI.
Dr. Fleisig and Dr. Andrews had these points to make about pitching injury-
Causes they believe to be leading factors in youth arm injury amongst pitchers.
1. Year round throwing
2. Seasonal overuse
3. Early breaking pitches
4. Velocity over 80 mph
5. inadequate warm-ups
6. showcases
They say the number one factor in injury leading to surgery in youth pitchers is "pitching while fatigued" which they equate with and associate pitching more than 80 pitches in a game or/and pitching after the body and arm has gotten tired or sore.
They gave one particular statistic that a youth pitcher who pitches fatigued is 36 times more likely to require surgery when pitching fatigued!
Of those requiring surgery the average fastball velocity amongst these youth was 83 mph. Of those studied 73% were over the 80 mph mark.
One interesting part of their study was that they found no correlation between healthy pitchers and injured pitchers who both threw breaking balls! They said that throwing breaking pitches at an early age may not contribute to injury, while later they say that it may contribute (go figure, but it sounds kind of like they were fishing for an answer they had pre thought up).
What they did find however was that the fastball put the hardest strains and pressures on the elbow and shoulder over the curveball and then the chang-up in that order. If we compile this with the above then we should be more aware of a pitchers velocity and fatigue level versus pitch count and pitch type (each person is different)!
What they found was that up to velocities just lower than 80mph the ucl could handle such stress on the ucl at that age level, while over 80mph they found that the forces put on the ucl for pitchers at the youth level, could not handle that much load.
So, as part of their recomendations for arm health they recommend-
Avoid too little throwing and physical activity (what I believe in all along).
and-
Avoid too much competetive pitching (also what I believe in).
Dr. Fleisig and Dr. Andrews had these points to make about pitching injury-
Causes they believe to be leading factors in youth arm injury amongst pitchers.
1. Year round throwing
2. Seasonal overuse
3. Early breaking pitches
4. Velocity over 80 mph
5. inadequate warm-ups
6. showcases
They say the number one factor in injury leading to surgery in youth pitchers is "pitching while fatigued" which they equate with and associate pitching more than 80 pitches in a game or/and pitching after the body and arm has gotten tired or sore.
They gave one particular statistic that a youth pitcher who pitches fatigued is 36 times more likely to require surgery when pitching fatigued!
Of those requiring surgery the average fastball velocity amongst these youth was 83 mph. Of those studied 73% were over the 80 mph mark.
One interesting part of their study was that they found no correlation between healthy pitchers and injured pitchers who both threw breaking balls! They said that throwing breaking pitches at an early age may not contribute to injury, while later they say that it may contribute (go figure, but it sounds kind of like they were fishing for an answer they had pre thought up).
What they did find however was that the fastball put the hardest strains and pressures on the elbow and shoulder over the curveball and then the chang-up in that order. If we compile this with the above then we should be more aware of a pitchers velocity and fatigue level versus pitch count and pitch type (each person is different)!
What they found was that up to velocities just lower than 80mph the ucl could handle such stress on the ucl at that age level, while over 80mph they found that the forces put on the ucl for pitchers at the youth level, could not handle that much load.
So, as part of their recomendations for arm health they recommend-
Avoid too little throwing and physical activity (what I believe in all along).
and-
Avoid too much competetive pitching (also what I believe in).
GBM,
Perhaps you haven't explained yourself too well, causing misunderstanding, not just for me. Your posts indicated that to build your son's arm strength, you had him throwing max effort each time he took to the mound, off the mound and you do not beleive that long toss develops arm strength? You do also allow him to pitch in one game and another on teh same day? You gave the impression, unless I am wrong, after spending time on the mound or at the field, he still came home to throw in the backyard.
ASMI recommends for your sons age group are 125 pitches a week. I don't know recommended rest periods between games.
It does strongly suggest that "backyard pitching practice after a pitched game is strongly discouraged". I would further expand on that by saying, after a day at the field, enough is enough. JMO.
You might want to rethink that one.
The recommended pitch counts are more than mine pitched in a week at that age, and remember it is only a recommendation. But FWIW, I live in a warm weather state where baseball is played year round, so here, one must be aware of overuse.
I or anyone else here does not have the answers, the commonality is all of it is all common sense.
Perhaps you haven't explained yourself too well, causing misunderstanding, not just for me. Your posts indicated that to build your son's arm strength, you had him throwing max effort each time he took to the mound, off the mound and you do not beleive that long toss develops arm strength? You do also allow him to pitch in one game and another on teh same day? You gave the impression, unless I am wrong, after spending time on the mound or at the field, he still came home to throw in the backyard.
ASMI recommends for your sons age group are 125 pitches a week. I don't know recommended rest periods between games.
It does strongly suggest that "backyard pitching practice after a pitched game is strongly discouraged". I would further expand on that by saying, after a day at the field, enough is enough. JMO.
You might want to rethink that one.
The recommended pitch counts are more than mine pitched in a week at that age, and remember it is only a recommendation. But FWIW, I live in a warm weather state where baseball is played year round, so here, one must be aware of overuse.
I or anyone else here does not have the answers, the commonality is all of it is all common sense.
quote:GBM,
Perhaps you haven't explained yourself too well, causing misunderstanding, not just for me. Your posts indicated that to build your son's arm strength, you had him throwing max effort each time he took to the mound, off the mound and you do not beleive that long toss develops arm strength? You do also allow him to pitch in one game and another on teh same day? You gave the impression, unless I am wrong, after spending time on the mound or at the field, he still came home to throw in the backyard.
Whenever any kid or person for that matter takes the mound they are going to throw at or near max velocity- that much is a given. Arm strength and health in my opinion comes from performing at or near max effort.
quote:I or anyone else here does not have the answers, the commonality is all of it is all common sense.
I agree fully. Common sense and riding out feelings and impressions is still the best tool. I have gone into games after son has pitched to 1-2 batters and yanked him because I "felt" impressed that he was a little fatigued or sore or had something bothering him.
At the age he is at, he is pefectly capable of throwing in back to back games in the same day as long as he is not sore or fatigued and keeps an overall low pitch count. I do not advocate throwing 50+ pitches in one game and then turn around and throw 50 more.
And yes- after he does pitch he comes home and throws some. I find nothing wrong with that as long as his arm is healthy and strong (not fatigued). This is all in relation to his age and effort of coarse. I would not advocate this if son just threw 75+ pitches at pro velocity level (high 80's to mid 90's) in a game.
quote:At the age he is at, he is pefectly capable of throwing in back to back games in the same day as long as he is not sore or fatigued and keeps an overall low pitch count. I do not advocate throwing 50+ pitches in one game and then turn around and throw 50 more.
Over-use is cumulamative, why do you think that there are child labor laws?..Working a kid continually over years breaks them down..a mature adult would set down the ego and understand that sometimes it is more responsible to say NO, sometimes just getting a bit more rest IS the best approach (Do you think the benefit of those additional unsupervised throwing sessions outweights shoulder or elbow failure at the late teens?..This is always where the down side of over-use manifests..just where he needs arm health the most!!!). What this behavior does and why you are getting so much flak is that you are robbing vitality...Oh you are saying things that make you look like you care, but what you are doing is rationalizing the behavior.
Why do you think so many are raising flags here? Do you think it because of anything but the voice of experience..or care for kids? You admitted you don't supervise this extra ciricular throwing, if he doesn't exhibit fatigue..(Think this through..what pitcher wants to come out?)..most can hide issues until it's way late, it's why you are getting busted on..My 25 years coaching, on top of studying/interning with a major D-1 program for 5 years, as well as a close decade long association with a man who has caught several Cy Young award MLB pitchers (Including Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson and Rick Sutcliff)has made me acutely aware of arm health issues and I have a very deep abiding concern for youth pitchers..your son included. I have no desire to get into a pee contest, I only care to pass my knowledge and help someone who appears not to understand the long marathon that your son has set out on. I gave you a great goal to shoot for, based on the many years of my experience you are making a mistake..one that will harm your kid. I'm sorry for that. I wish very much that you would either provide some compelling arguement to validate your point or at least just stop trying to rationalize..the reason for this isn't to quiet you, you've made the same point throughout this and the other thread..but by continuing to rationalize you may actually convince some young reader that what you are doing is in fact sound judgement, which it isn't.
quote:I wish very much that you would either provide some compelling arguement to validate your point or at least just stop trying to rationalize..
Not rationalizing anything. I am fully aware of the various studies done with American baseball youth pitching and throwing.
The greatest compelling point I can make is that by "throwing" more and actually "pitching" less, the youth arm is better conditioned and adjusted for throwing harder at early ages thus protecting the arm. It is about repeatable mechanics and training the arm in strength, endurance and stamina.
I do not advocate that young pitchers go out and throw as hard as they can whenever possible, but only when they are properly warmed up, they feel good, and they stop at or before any fatigue or arm pain begins to settle in. This is why I believe in throwing "more". As a kid trains and builds muscle and refines his mechanics he should find himself throwing more and more to better condition his body and arm for throwing when he does throw "harder" as in pitching.
When we speak of "recovery time" we are usually speaking in terms of rejuvinating the bodies depleted energy levels/ injury recovery. I believe that it is better to reduce the recovery time by limiting how many "hard throws" (pitches) they throw and in turn increase the frequency of their throwing thus enabling better muscle memory and conditioning. I believe that as they do this they build up a higher and quicker return rate to throwing and actually maintain a healthier and stronger arm over the long haul of a season.
I also believe that this approach leads to better repeatable mechanics and a natural increase of "usable velocity and control" in games which in turn helps keep the pitch counts low by getting out of innings quicker.
I was once asked what pitching coach teaches my son to throw so well. I replied that his pitching coach is the stairs out in back of our house. They were stunned so I explained to them the best thing a kid needs to do is throw a lot and refine their mechanics in the process- place the focus of training to throw on repetition. This does not mean that they should just go out and throw max velocity and actually "pitch", but rather that they throw medium hard in repetition, not pushing too hard but at the same time pushing themselves hard enough that it keeps a healthy dose of fresh blood flowing through their bodies, and especially their arms.
Is that compelling enough?
You just rationalized. Well the effort was made. Best wishes.
A compelling arguement would bring in some other credable expertise that in some way represents your view as valid. Why don't you just give him coke? or Roids? Or testosterone? You'd have the same outstanding instantanious results...AND no immediate evidence of harm? Instead of "back-stairs" why don't you take him to a reputable pitching coach to get that excess energy out of him? Of course you won't find a single reputable coach anywhere that will back up the thing you are being taken to task on..heck you can't even bring another poster here to your point of view. Do you think that is just because? Most of the posters here have walked your road already..some have walked it more than once. People like PG and TR live it every day. Well, you and he will have his little league memories to fall back on..and I understand Idaho has some tremendous outdoor wonders so he'll find something to do while the other are enjoying their high school and college baseball careers, maybe he'll be a good coach.
A compelling arguement would bring in some other credable expertise that in some way represents your view as valid. Why don't you just give him coke? or Roids? Or testosterone? You'd have the same outstanding instantanious results...AND no immediate evidence of harm? Instead of "back-stairs" why don't you take him to a reputable pitching coach to get that excess energy out of him? Of course you won't find a single reputable coach anywhere that will back up the thing you are being taken to task on..heck you can't even bring another poster here to your point of view. Do you think that is just because? Most of the posters here have walked your road already..some have walked it more than once. People like PG and TR live it every day. Well, you and he will have his little league memories to fall back on..and I understand Idaho has some tremendous outdoor wonders so he'll find something to do while the other are enjoying their high school and college baseball careers, maybe he'll be a good coach.
child labor laws---where did that come from ???
quote:You just rationalized. Well the effort was made. Best wishes.
A compelling arguement would bring in some other credable expertise that in some way represents your view as valid. Why don't you just give him coke? or Roids? Or testosterone? You'd have the same outstanding instantanious results...AND no immediate evidence of harm? Instead of "back-stairs" why don't you take him to a reputable pitching coach to get that excess energy out of him? Of course you won't find a single reputable coach anywhere that will back up the thing you are being taken to task on..heck you can't even bring another poster here to your point of view. Do you think that is just because? Most of the posters here have walked your road already..some have walked it more than once. People like PG and TR live it every day. Well, you and he will have his little league memories to fall back on..and I understand Idaho has some tremendous outdoor wonders so he'll find something to do while the other are enjoying their high school and college baseball careers, maybe he'll be a good coach.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I'm betting that because we are taking care of his arm now that he will most certainly enjoy his hs playing days. After that is up to him and what he chooses to do.
Good luck to you!
My son's travel coach's son started Wednesday and Saturday in his regional. I don't know how many pitches.quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
This will get you going---senior college pitcher in the Northeast D-III regional threw over 500 pitches in the past week
