YoungGunDad posted:

 

This what I am about to say has NOTHING to do with being born and raised in the South. My dad raised me to NEVER hit a girl. No matter what. And as I've gotten older the thought occurred to me what possibly could ever evoke me to WANT to hit or hurt a woman AT ALL? 

 

If I had that mentality, I'd be dead right now. My daughter would either not have existed or also would be dead. 

Why would pro athletes be any different from society? There are men who aren't pro athletes who beat their wives/girlfriends. If they have money for top lawyers chances are they walked away from it without jail time. It's not a thug athlete issue. It's a societal issue.

Look, I'm the last person that would defend domestic abuse. However, Aroldis said himself that he did fire off gunshots in his garage, but he never touched his girlfriend. The photos posted by TMZ also seem to support that. I can't see one mark on her. http://www.tmz.com/2015/12/08/...tic-violence-photos/

RJM posted:

Why would pro athletes be any different from society? There are men who aren't pro athletes who beat their wives/girlfriends. If they have money for top lawyers chances are they walked away from it without jail time. It's not a thug athlete issue. It's a societal issue.

Yes athletes don't become magical saints just because they are pros. There are racists, sexists, psychopaths, alcoholics, drug addicts... Among athletes just like they are among the rest of society. Of course that is not good and law should adress them ( and not let them off the hook because they are rich and famous) but it is stupid to expect that athletes as a group are better than the rest of society.

I don't think that is an athlete specific problem.

It runs wild in the NFL.  Ever wonder how many NFL players would be behind bars if it weren't for football?  The other pro sports can't hold a candle to football.  Yet football's popularity is off the charts. In fact, I also love it.

I never really understood the big penalties involving that bounty thing with the Saints a few years ago.   There was a financial reward offered to hurt someone on the football field.  Haven't they been paying big salaries to players that hurt people for many years.  Did guys like Dick Butkus ever want to hurt anyone?  What do we call that player who hurts the most opponents?  How about rich and famous or All Pro?  The problem is when they take that game mentality with them when they're off the field. 

 Is domestic abuse allowed or more common in Cuba? Is it ok to slap your wife in the Dominican? What is acceptable force in Venezuela? or S.Korea?  While MLB works so hard to get these cultures into our American pastime, should we expect a little bump in the road from time to time? I know that even if your from Elk Horn Iowa these infractions could happen, its not just the inner city of Chicago or LA.

 I am under the impression that there is less violence in MLB than the NBA and NFL, in a few years when 50-60% of the players are foreign will it still be Americas pastime like we know it?

Speaking as the spouse of a MD who used to log many hours in the ER, abuse cuts across all demographic categories. Speaking as the child of a female judge and male lawyer, abuse has a disgustingly long history of being swept under the carpet. Speaking as a female, I've never understood how a wife/girlfriend could stick in a relationship with an abusive man nor can I understand how teammates/friends of said abusive man could not continually call them out on it. Speaking as a parent of a bb player, I emphasized respect and 'using your words' with my boys. So, finally, speaking as a citizen, I am always glad when cases of abuse go viral or at least public: Airing these ugly deeds helps move the conversation forward, even if only slowly. 

PGStaff posted:

It runs wild in the NFL.  Ever wonder how many NFL players would be behind bars if it weren't for football?  The other pro sports can't hold a candle to football.  Yet football's popularity is off the charts. In fact, I also love it.

I never really understood the big penalties involving that bounty thing with the Saints a few years ago.   There was a financial reward offered to hurt someone on the football field.  Haven't they been paying big salaries to players that hurt people for many years.  Did guys like Dick Butkus ever want to hurt anyone?  What do we call that player who hurts the most opponents?  How about rich and famous or All Pro?  The problem is when they take that game mentality with them when they're off the field. 

... and when that mentality is such a big part of your life and your success, it can be very difficult to separate for many.

I was a DB in high school. I was nasty. I was taught to be nasty. It's the way the game was taught, coached and played. We were allowed to do things to receivers that are very illegal now. 

In college it took at least two years to stop envisioning clothes lining anyone running in the opposite direction on the sidewalk of the campus. But it never dawned on me to hit a woman. 

Its not asking much for an athlete to control their aggression off the field. Most pro athletes do. It's more about what went on in their community and in their house. Many were raised in an environment where violence and money were everything. They weren't raised to think differently. When they receive multiple second chances as pro athletes it makes their behavior acceptable in their minds.

I wholeheartedly agree that this is and has been a societal issue for far too long. And I'm not arguing that point one bit so please know that. RJM is correct in his assessment that what we see with these athletes (and society in general) when domestic abuse/assault occurs happens is somewhat a direct result of their environment and family upbringing at home. As we grow up seeing it and being around it without any repercussions or consequences it's easy to see how one would deem that it is "acceptable" or "okay" in private. Monkey see, monkey do I suppose. But I'm also an avid believe that we also DON'T have to be held captive or be the direct product of our upbringing if we so desire. I have this deep rooted belief that inside us all is a moral compass which speaks to our conscious....our heart that "right is right" and "wrong is wrong"....THAT is our baseline needle on our compass. I don't suppose to think that all think this way but inside me that's always been quite prevalent. 

But honestly, the point of my OP was just to address the disgusting alarm at which ALL sports seem to be dealing with this on some level, how they are dealing with it, our the League in which they belong deal with it, and through it all how it even affects society by watching it at times be swept under the rug or being slapped on the wrist. 

Every time a player faces the music because of his crime only to see them coddle him with a 3 game suspension or the prosecutor dropping all charges what message is being sent back to him? To the abused? To everyone? Even though Chapman can throw a 103mph fastball, LA and Boston gained tremendous respect from me for backing off pursuit of him. I commend them for what they stood up for regardless of the ticket sales and wins he would bring them. 

AL PAL, I genuinely appreciated your post and agree that as long as this topic is brought out and discussed the more aware people can be aware of what is going on, voice their opinions and care, and hopefully somehow make a difference that this is totally unacceptable. I'm just afraid until these professional sports teams begin to take a stand for what is right by forsaking their potential financial losses and/or ticket sells to send a loud and clear, direct message, we will continue to see this over and over again. 

YGD

Great examples and points.  And you didn't even bring up the Grand Poo Bah of them all. . . . . . . OJ

A name change doesn't always help either. They say "A Leopard cannot change its spots." I guess this Bengal cannot change his stripes. Was it Adam or PacMan who played the Steelers in the waning minutes in playoffs?

First, I have been known for my bad temper.  When we wanted to have a child, my wife told me that she had one condition.  I could never lay hands on the child because I just can't stop when I get mad.  I agreed.  I have never laid a hand on my wife or child.  How do you hit someone you say you love? 

What I do believe is that we have created a culture in some communities that give athletes a sense that they are above the law or rules.  I am reminded of a HS game once where a hitter was thrown out at first and thought he was safe.  He dropped his pants to moon the umpire and was ejected.  After the game, I asked the coach what he was going to do to the player.  Long answer short, nothing.  From there, I knew we couldn't play that team anymore.  His players didn't have any consequences for their actions.  That isn't an isolated story across this country. 

I'll wrap up by saying that domestic abuse is a plague in this country.  My nephew who is a Police Officer was just telling me how he had a call to a house and when he got there, he could hear the man inside beating the wife.  He was told to wait for backup.  He couldn't and so, had to go in gun pulled and save the woman.  When backup arrived and they got the guy in handcuffs, the woman said that he had told her he was going to kill her.  He had a glock and 300 rounds of ammo by the bed.  So, it isn't just athletes. 

Please do not take this the wrong way, I am going to say it,  but reality is not only is it a societal issue but also a cultural and ethnic issue.  As far as abuse against woman, this occurs in every society in every part of the word. I know  of a woman here in the US who is here illegally, a professional corporate woman from China, she came here to escape abuse from her husband. There is no such thing as divorce in China. If she went back he would kill her.  Wives and girlfriends of athletes tolerate the abuse because they are forced to stay with their man for financial reasons.  And more than likely they stay with the baby daddy so the children will grow up with a father unlike they did when they were children.    Many of these young guys  from other places grew up with nothing, so this does change their lives and its not always for the best.  

 When you have so much money and dont know what to do with it, it only makes matters worse.

Success can bring big paychecks - funny money -for some, Fu money.  All of a sudden, there are people fueling your ego: beautiful women, new people wanting to be your friend, best tables, best parking, first class travel, best hotel, best table in Vegas.  You get all this attention, you're the man.  Challenge is to stay grounded.  Add in societal, cultural, & legal boundaries.  YOU ARE ON EVERYBODYS RADAR.  The average and even above average earner can stay off the radar.  But you're now a target.

The guys that are exposed to this, or the ones that get back into "society's" grace, are the ones that have a spiritual infrastructure in place to slap them back into reality.  

There are no excuses, but these guys who get on the "radar" have it tough; hopefully they have a core group nearby that will keep them in check, not the "group" from the past that will perpetuate the derailing of a talented potential role model for some young kid.

Big money leads to a lot of wrongful influences in your life.  Hard to stay grounded.  Have to have a core group close to you that keeps you in check.

Football gets a lot of attention with this stuff.  

It gets press because it is easy.  In reality, the crime rate is lower in the NFL than society at large.  Much lower in MLB.  It should be and it is.  

So, I don't care anymore about a ball player smacking his better half than I do some plumber somewhere.  The crime is the same.  Many of the dynamics are the same.  The problem is not with athletes, but, society has an issue for sure.  If you think the story here is about well paid athletes you are letting yourself be easily manipulated.  

Leftside posted:

Football gets a lot of attention with this stuff.  

It gets press because it is easy.  In reality, the crime rate is lower in the NFL than society at large.  Much lower in MLB.  It should be and it is.  

So, I don't care anymore about a ball player smacking his better half than I do some plumber somewhere.  The crime is the same.  Many of the dynamics are the same.  The problem is not with athletes, but, society has an issue for sure.  If you think the story here is about well paid athletes you are letting yourself be easily manipulated.  

I think the point of the OP isn't that there is any more or less of this happening by professional athletes.  I believe he is alluding to the point that they tend to get off with significantly lighter punishment than the general population.  Whether it is their status or using their means to get the best legal counsel, the end result is huge headlines of terrible crimes and subsequent headlines regarding acquittal, second chances, no time served, etc.

And for the record, I agree with your comment that the plumber is as responsible for his actions as the star wide receiver/point guard/pitcher, etc.  I also believe that he punishment should be meted out equally.

the plumber is as responsible for his actions as the star wide receiver/point guard/pitcher, etc. I also believe that he punishment should be meted out equally."

Concur... 

With all due respect Football (NFL) leads the way in violent crimes.  Just off the top of my head there have been somewhere between 5 and 8 people murdered where NFL players were accused.  Countless number of assaults and other laws broken.  So if you take the number of people that have played in the NFL I would think the crime rate is higher than the general population.  And that doesn't even count the things they have gotten away with. Maybe it's all those concussions!  And to think football is the most popular sport in our country. I will admit to loving football.

For some reason it seems like the NBA has the most law abiding citizens these days among the three major sports.  Other than that rape charge involving Kobe Bryant awhile back, I can't remember much news about NBA players breaking the law, let alone being involved in any violent acts.

PGStaff posted:

With all due respect Football (NFL) leads the way in violent crimes.  Just off the top of my head there have been somewhere between 5 and 8 people murdered where NFL players were accused.  Countless number of assaults and other laws broken.  So if you take the number of people that have played in the NFL I would think the crime rate is higher than the general population.  And that doesn't even count the things they have gotten away with. Maybe it's all those concussions!  And to think football is the most popular sport in our country. I will admit to loving football.

For some reason it seems like the NBA has the most law abiding citizens these days among the three major sports.  Other than that rape charge involving Kobe Bryant awhile back, I can't remember much news about NBA players breaking the law, let alone being involved in any violent acts.

The last year of stats I looked up, FBI crime stats, the arrest rates for NFL players were well below the societal averages.  Those are arrest numbers.  Convictions, who knows?  Didn't take the time to look into that.  

Five and eight people killed and NFL players accused....in what time frame?  

It doesn't matter.  The stats are what they are.  

For the record, given the high profile positions these people have, the resources they are given (even a lowly practice squad player can call and get a ride from a club or bar, provided by his team, with no charge to avoid driving buzzed for example), the arrest rate should be somewhere near zero.  I am not making excuses for people.  But, to claim thuggery is run amok in professional sports is just emotional nonsense.  

The societal flaw is deeper than just athletes, in my opinion it all goes back to what these individuals think they are entitled to.

I'm teaching my son to NEVER do damage to a weaker person, be it man or woman.  The best thing to do is to use words or walk away, no one thinks you are tough when you beat up weaker people.

I'm teaching my daughter that if she hits she should EXPECT to be hit back.  She doesn't get a free pass to slap/punch a man because she is a girl and girls shouldn't be hit.

There are MANY cases where the woman has done nothing to the man and he attacks because he is broken in his core and thinks it is acceptable.  However, there are MANY cases where the woman was the first to throw a plate at the guys head or physically attack him and the man is arrested for defending himself or phsycially touching her while trying to get away.

I have 3 sons 19 to 23 - all have been cut or bruised by girlfriends including a couple of decent shiners and a broken nose.  I have seen them with girlfriends  sitting on the couch watching TV and taking solid punches and kicks from girls landing to faces, ribs and groins.  When I asked them about it they shrugged and said all girls are like that.

My teenage Daughters and their friends cuss like Sailors on leave in the Philippines.  When asked why they swear they say - well you did it and all girls are like that.

I will admit to turning the air blue more than I would like to admit but never did my wife and I slap, punch, or kick even in a kidding way.  This is the 21st century and women feel far more empowered to slug away than their mothers did. 

My sample size is small - about 12 girls have come to my house with my sons and probably 20 with my daughters.  These young ladies do not remind me at all of what I remember of girls in the 1970's when I was their age.  They remind me more of what I remember myself being. 

One thing we need to do as a society is to reconcile the contradictory opinions we have so that we have a set of rules to go by.

For example, in the political realm, we are regularly bombarded with messages about how we need to be more forgiving of those with criminal records.  Once someone has "done their time," they should be allowed to vote immediately, etc.  Do all you can to hire these people and give them another chance, don't put them in a position where the only solution they see is to return to a life of crime, etc.  We are supposed to show Christian forgiveness, etc.

All that seems to go out the window if we're talking about athletes, though.  And if the crime touches a nerve somewhere, the player has to watch out.  Right now, domestic violence is the cause celebre.  I'm not saying it shouldn't be, but clearly anyone committing crimes in that field is getting the media piling-on treatment far more so than those who commit other crimes, even if the sentences that go with those other crimes would suggest that society deems them far worse.  So, we have murderers in the NFL, but if you hit a woman, you're out. 

Adrian Peterson got suspended for a year for doing to his son something my father did to me a few times in my youth.  (But only when I deserved it and only with self-control and purpose.  I didn't like it then, but I do approve now, and I am a supporter of corporal punishment generally.)  This was nothing but the anti-corporal punishment people trying to sacrifice him on the altar of their political drive to impose their views society-wide.  And they succeeded, leaving many like me scratching our heads.

Michael Vick is still considered a pariah by many despite the fact that he has done his time and lost tens of millions of dollars for his crimes. 

If I were head of the NFL, I would announce this policy:  "I'm here to run a football league.  As commissioner, I will deal with anything that touches the game or the integrity of a game's outcome.  But I do not consider it within my purview to jump ahead of our criminal justice system by presuming guilt based on media reports, to second-guess legislatures as to what penalties should attach to what offenses, to add punishments that no person working in any other field would suffer in their workplaces, or to continue punishments after society has said "enough."  Now, the league's position on this does not mean that an individual team cannot take further actions as it may see fit.  What each owner does with his or her team is their business.  But as for the league, this is simply not what we are here for."

Under this approach, the commissioner would deal with things like fudging the air pressure of game balls, but not with crimes committed off the field.  This puts me squarely in disagreement with the prevailing views of the media, where many find "deflategate" beneath the dignity of the commissioner to punish, but see off-field issues as a place where he needs to drop the hammer in order to assuage the voices of political correctness.

The second policy I would announce is this:  "Intentionally hurting another person is a crime no matter where such an act occurs.  In football, injuries are not totally preventable and indeed, they are part of the game.  But while we do not punish for contact in the context of the game that may cause an injury, any player who intentionally injures another player or who commits an offensive act outside the game's norms will not only cause his team to suffer a penalty, he will be referred by the NFL to the appropriate jurisdictional authorities for criminal prosecution."

Under that policy, for example, the Saints players and coaches who implemented their bounty program some years ago should have all been indicted for conspiracy and assault and battery.  If they used their helmets as weapons, assault with a deadly weapon charges might be considered, etc. 

If Aroldis Chapman did strike his girlfriend, then he should be arrested, prosecuted and, if found guilty, sentenced.  Baseball needs to get involved in none of that.  To me, it should steer a path far away from all of that, to avoid piling on and possibly even tainting jury pools.  But if Aroldis Chapman uses steroids, then the game should ban him. 

And if he throws a 103 mph missile at someone intentionally, he should be arrested and taken from the mound by police in handcuffs.

There's a famous old film clip of Bert Campaneris getting hit by a pitch on his leg.  He then limps to the mound, thumping his bat on the ground, before he swings it at the pitcher and starts a melee.  I ask you, why was he not arrested?

You want to clean up the game?  Go to the root of the problem, a culture that tolerates violence and acts like there's something about a sports field that makes it a zone of criminal immunity.  All the politically correct posturing in the world doesn't accomplish as much as just taking the proper actions at the proper times. 

"However, there are MANY cases where the woman was the first to throw a plate at the guys head or physically attack him and the man is arrested for defending himself or phsycially touching her while trying to get away."

Been there, done that. My ex did everything possible to get me to hit her. When nothing worked she started wailing away on me. While holding her at bay with one arm I called 911. When the police arrived she showed them the marks on her arms. They were caused by me blocking shots while on the phone. She said she was afraid I was going to kill her.

The police told me they believed my story. But they could lose their jobs if they didn't permanently escort me out of the house. Her next trick was I couldn't see my kids for three weeks until I got a court order with visitation rights. Another guy might have snapped from what I endured for the next year.

There was a pitcher for the Angels (Chuck Finley) who was made fun of in the media because his wife (actress Tawny Kataen) clawed the crap out if him. He wouldn't swing back. He did the right thing. He was made fun of and called a pussy in the media for his wife beating him up.

RJM posted:

"However, there are MANY cases where the woman was the first to throw a plate at the guys head or physically attack him and the man is arrested for defending himself or phsycially touching her while trying to get away."

Been there, done that. My ex did everything possible to get me to hit her. When nothing worked she started wailing away on me. While holding her at bay with one arm I called 911. When the police arrived she showed them the marks on her arms. They were caused by me blocking shots while on the phone. She said she was afraid I was going to kill her.

The police told me they believed my story. But they could lose their jobs if they didn't permanently escort me out of the house. Her next trick was I couldn't see my kids for three weeks until I got a court order with visitation rights. Another guy might have snapped from what I endured for the next year.

There was a pitcher for the Angels (Chuck Finley) who was made fun of in the media because his wife (actress Tawny Kataen) clawed the crap out if him. He wouldn't swing back. He did the right thing. He was made fun of and called a pussy in the media for his wife beating him up.

Exactly RJM.  I have heard a variation of this MANY times.  I don't doubt that there are some sicko's out there that enjoy beating on women, BUT, taking in the entire situation would be helpful as opposed to there is a mark on her, let's get him. 

Unfortunately, the media typically only reports one side of the story.  However, I have heard that there is a trend that now the prosecutors don't have to wait to see if the victim wants to continue to press charges.  The prosecutors can continue on with the case against the celebrity with the state having the stance of "The State of XXXX has picked up the charges for attacking a citizen, we have the video of the victim, their statement, and pictures about damage....it doesn't matter that he/she has decided not to testify against you and dropped the charges, the state has picked them up."  I do hope that trend continues.

NYCTBaseball posted:

Look, I'm the last person that would defend domestic abuse. However, Aroldis said himself that he did fire off gunshots in his garage, but he never touched his girlfriend. The photos posted by TMZ also seem to support that. I can't see one mark on her. http://www.tmz.com/2015/12/08/...tic-violence-photos/

Firing shots off in your garage sounds a little psycho to me.  Seems like a loose cannon with serious issues.

PGStaff posted:

It runs wild in the NFL.  Ever wonder how many NFL players would be behind bars if it weren't for football?  The other pro sports can't hold a candle to football.  Yet football's popularity is off the charts. In fact, I also love it.

I never really understood the big penalties involving that bounty thing with the Saints a few years ago.   There was a financial reward offered to hurt someone on the football field.  Haven't they been paying big salaries to players that hurt people for many years.  Did guys like Dick Butkus ever want to hurt anyone?  What do we call that player who hurts the most opponents?  How about rich and famous or All Pro?  The problem is when they take that game mentality with them when they're off the field. 

I don't think this is true.  For example NFL players were arrested for Drunk Driving at 1/4 the rate of the population at large.  It takes huge discipline and commitment to become a professional athlete along with some fabulous god given gifts.

These men are high achievers and hardly thugs. 

In all of 2015 there were 2 DUI arrests of NFL players and 9 in 2014.  The last sexual assault arrest was in 2012 and the last conviction was in 2006.  In 2015 There was a grand total of 5 Domestic Violation arrests (1 conviction) 1 for Assault and Battery and 3 gun charges (0 Convictions).  Peterson is the only Child Abuse case in the last 2 years.  These guys are simply not running wild in the streets.  They have way too much at stake to do that.

Why do people think these guys are out of control?  Race? Money? Media with a few high profile blow ups?  I really don't get it.