Tim Lincecum ( anybody watch him pitch)

He may have been 4-11 then, but he's listed at 6 feet 165 pounds now. Didn't play varsity until his junior year according to one bio.

quote:

Originally posted by baseballbum:
I really like this kid and he has great stuff . If you guys have any insights on him I really would appreciate it. His dad in an article said , " he was 4'11 inches" when he was a freshman in HighSchool. I think this kid is special and if you have an related stories on him send them my way....

I'll be interested to see whether he will be able to consistently pitch at a high level. His motion is so violent that it would seem to be vulnerable to the smallest problem. In fact, at one point in his delivery both of his feet are up in the air (which I don't think I've ever seen before).

IOW, he's the opposite of smooth.

Tim Lincecum Clip

I saw him on MLB.com. Small but packs a punch don't ya think? I like watching him pitch..not sure why it's just exciting.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by baseballbum:
I really like this kid and he has great stuff . If you guys have any insights on him I really would appreciate it. His dad in an article said , " he was 4'11 inches" when he was a freshman in HighSchool. I think this kid is special and if you have an related stories on him send them my way....

I'll be interested to see whether he will be able to consistently pitch at a high level. His motion is so violent that it would seem to be vulnerable to the smallest problem. In fact, at one point in his delivery both of his feet are up in the air (which I don't think I've ever seen before).

IOW, he's the opposite of smooth.

Tim Lincecum Clip

I shot that film last year in Washington against UCLA. I have a lot of clips from that game. He had the best stuff of any amateur pitcher that I have ever scouted.......ever. The only other pitcher I have ever seen who releases the ball when his back foot is 3 feet in front of the rubber is Greg Maddux when he was about Lincecum's age.

Hey may be listed as 6' but he is actually 5'10.

Chris O', Lincecum is a stud and you may predict when he may or may not break down but he is blessed so let him be.

TPBulldog, I also enjoy watching this kid pitch because like many baseball stories he probably was shut down on every level because of his size and style. He has shown that he is durable in the college ranks and he is doing well in the minors and I believe he was called up to spring training last I heard.

Everyone roots for an underdog and from reading some articles on line it appears his dad took a little bit from Koufax and Gibson's delivery. Good stuff!

Nice video. I hadn't heard of him but my son sure has. He is listed at 5-11 in one online resource and 6 feet in another. Likely he is closer to 5-10.

He may not be tall but his knows how to use his legs (they look long) to the utmost. He is at the very front of that mound when his throw ends.

Keeps his hands very low with his body slightly turned so that the ball remains hidden.

All everybody seems to say when talking about this kid is that they wonder how long he can pitch at this level, or other statements hinting at waiting for him to breakdown and get injured.

This can be said about any pitcher or anyone who throws a baseball.

Why not admire what the kid has accomplished and hope he can continue having success. He is the real deal and has been using a different approach to throwing that may change they way a lot of people look at "mechanics".

More vidio of him pitching and and a story about his family and his mechanics:

http://www.calleaguers.com/LincecumTim0326.html

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2002951437_lincecum25.html

Lincecum's Dad, a former professional pitcher, could hit 88 at age 55!

quote:

Originally posted by RobV:
All everybody seems to say when talking about this kid is that they wonder how long he can pitch at this level, or other statements hinting at waiting for him to breakdown and get injured.

I'm not talking about injury risk. I can't tell for sure (but I don't see anything obvious).

What I'm talking about is how rapidly he moves. Now, there's no question that it works for him right now. His K/BB ratio is very good (and better than I expected).

However, I have found that guys like this tend to have problems as they get older and are vulnerable to small perturbations in their mechanics (ala Rick Ankiel). Another one to think of is Tiger Woods. He has had to rebuild his swing as he has gotten older.

I will say that Lincecum's motion reminds me of Oswalt, which is a good thing. I mostly just don't like how much his head moves around.

I think if you looked at the mirror image of the clip, the guy you would be reminded of is Mark Mulder. Especially the way his arm lags back and then comes around very stiff and straight.

Seems to me Mulder's doing all right for himself, why not this guy, too?

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
I think if you looked at the mirror image of the clip, the guy you would be reminded of is Mark Mulder. Especially the way his arm lags back and then comes around very stiff and straight.

Seems to me Mulder's doing all right for himself, why not this guy, too?

I don't think Lincecum looks much like Mulder. His arm action is quite different. Mulder has more of a conventional Down, Out, and Up action to his arm swing.

Watch how Lincecum's PAS hand drops straight down after he breaks his hands and then comes back up. This is kind of like Chris Carpenter, but still relatively unique.

I do think Lincecum's "leap" is reminiscent of Roy Oswalt, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
I shot that film last year in Washington against UCLA. I have a lot of clips from that game. He had the best stuff of any amateur pitcher that I have ever scouted.......ever. The only other pitcher I have ever seen who releases the ball when his back foot is 3 feet in front of the rubber is Greg Maddux when he was about Lincecum's age.

I agree that Maddux and Lincecum do a great job of not leaving the PAS foot behind on the rubber, which helps with hip rotation and helps them release the ball closer to the plate.

I just noticed that Lincecum's PAS arm action (e.g. what his PAS hand does) in the clip is pretty much identical to what Maddux does in bbscout's clip of him.

- Tim Lincecum

- Greg Maddux

I don't think that Maddux still does exactly what he was doing in the clip above. His current hand break seems longer and more horizontal and less purely vertical. I wonder if this is something that Mazzone changed.



Also, you have to admit that Maddux is smoother. In particular, his head is steadier.

Yea, but Maddux doesn't throw anywhere near what Lincecum does.

quote:

Originally posted by RobV:
Yea, but Maddux doesn't throw anywhere near what Lincecum does.

Maddux doesn't throw as hard as many guys, but guess who's going to the HOF.

Velocity isn't everything.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

Maddux doesn't throw as hard as many guys, but guess who's going to the HOF.

Velocity isn't everything.

Please let's not start the "velocity isn't everything" debates.

My comment was directed at your statement that Maddux was smoother. Not who is going to the hall of fame.

Plus...how do you know that Lincecum won't end up there?

Hmmmm?

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
I shot that film last year in Washington against UCLA. I have a lot of clips from that game. He had the best stuff of any amateur pitcher that I have ever scouted.......ever. The only other pitcher I have ever seen who releases the ball when his back foot is 3 feet in front of the rubber is Greg Maddux when he was about Lincecum's age.

I agree that Maddux and Lincecum do a great job of not leaving the PAS foot behind on the rubber, which helps with hip rotation and helps them release the ball closer to the plate.

I just noticed that Lincecum's PAS arm action (e.g. what his PAS hand does) in the clip is pretty much identical to what Maddux does in bbscout's clip of him.

- Tim Lincecum

- Greg Maddux

I don't think that Maddux still does exactly what he was doing in the clip above. His current hand break seems longer and more horizontal and less purely vertical. I wonder if this is something that Mazzone changed.



Also, you have to admit that Maddux is smoother. In particular, his head is steadier.

Mazzone did not change anything that Maddux does. Time and age has changed him a little bit, but not too much.The stride length and hip rotation are the reason that they both release the ball with their back foot 3 feet in front of the rubber. They also release the ball closer to the plate than most other pitchers.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
I think if you looked at the mirror image of the clip, the guy you would be reminded of is Mark Mulder. Especially the way his arm lags back and then comes around very stiff and straight.

Seems to me Mulder's doing all right for himself, why not this guy, too?

If anything, Lincecum looks more like Bob Feller than any other pitcher and that is because his Dad modeled his delivery after Feller. He does not resemble Mulder at all. His arm does not come around stiff and straight, and the clip shows that very well.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
If anything, Lincecum looks more like Bob Feller than any other pitcher and that is because his Dad modeled his delivery after Feller. He does not resemble Mulder at all. His arm does not come around stiff and straight, and the clip shows that very well.

Do you have a clip of Feller?

I've never found one that I can go through frame by frame.

I have a great clip of Feller, but the file is too large to upload to my web space. I can e-mail the clip to you if you would like.

Here's Feller effortlessly tossing a ball at about 105 mph at release point.

http://www.thoughtequity.com/video/clip/1617567_028.do

That is the clip that I also have. Great clip.

Very odd how little discussion that clip generates. It may be the fastest pitch ever recorded. Feller threw only 6 pitches that day. He'd never been gunned before. If he really released that ball around 105 mph that would be ASTOUNDING and offensive to some of today's "experts."

He never took a lesson (made the majors at 17) Never read a pitching book. Uses an obsolete windmill delivery. He isn't very big (actually thin by todays standards) Didn't do 2,000 situps a day or whatever the fad is. Wasn't on a pitch count. And he certainly wasn't on 'roids!

Why do people here discuss Lincecum (and Oswalt and Maddux and Wagner) and not Feller?

quote:

Originally posted by micdsguy:
Very odd how little discussion that clip generates. It may be the fastest pitch ever recorded. Feller threw only 6 pitches that day. He'd never been gunned before. If he really released that ball around 105 mph that would be ASTOUNDING and offensive to some of today's "experts."

He never took a lesson (made the majors at 17) Never read a pitching book. Uses an obsolete windmill delivery. He isn't very big (actually thin by todays standards) Didn't do 2,000 situps a day or whatever the fad is. Wasn't on a pitch count. And he certainly wasn't on 'roids!

Why do people here discuss Lincecum (and Oswalt and Maddux and Wagner) and not Feller?

It's hard to find clips or photos of Feller (but the HOF has a nice overview of his career with some nice high-speed film), so very few people know what his mechanics look like.

One thing that I find interesting is that, while he loads his scaps, unlike contemporary guys like Zumaya and Wagner he keeps his elbows below the level of his shoulders. IOW, he makes a Horizontal W ,not an Inverted or Upside-Down W.

This probably helps to explain his lack of shoulder problems.

Feller had arm problems starting at age 29 and even though he pitched pretty well after that, his strikeouts took a huge drop. He also had very poor control and walked over 100 hitters 9 times in his career. In fact, he walked over 200 once. He lost alomost 4 years to World war 2 and that time away from the game sure did not help him any. In 4 of his last 5 years, he walked more guys than he struck out.

painguy

this one is for you

Sad how little video exists of even pre-70s greats. Regarding Feller's arm problems after age 29: by then he had been in the majors since age 17.

That video of him was made in 1946, probably his best year. He pitched an incredible 371 innings that year with an ERA of 2.18.

Interesting tidbits on his HS years:

" had one overriding desire: to play baseball. His father, who had been a semi-professional pitcher in his younger days, encouraged Feller's interest in baseball. He built a pitching mound and set up a home plate between the house and the barn. Young Feller spent hours a day throwing pitches to his dad and building up his arm strength. In the winter, father and son would play catch inside the barn."


"As a child, Feller always wanted to play baseball with older kids. When he was 12, he helped his father build their own baseball field on the farm, complete with a grandstand. His father started a team, with his son as the pitcher, and charged 35 cents admission. Feller grew into a strong, strapping teenager, who looked older than his age. Sometimes more than a thousand people came to the farm to see him pitch. By the time he was in high school, major league scouts had heard about his fastball."

"The Indians brought Feller to Cleveland during the 1936 season. In July he pitched in an exhibition game against the St. Louis Cardinals. Feller, who had never pitched a single game in the minor or major leagues, looked raw and nervous. But, using only a fastball, he struck out eight batters in three innings. The Indians immediately put him into their bullpen, even though he was only 17 years old. In his first start, on August 23, he struck out 15 and beat the St. Louis Browns, 4-1."

"The amazing teenage pitching sensation was an instant drawing card for the Indians. When he pitched, attendance would rise by about 10,000 fans."

http://www.answers.com/topic/bob-feller

Micdsguy,

Great stuff on Bob Feller.

Probably why guys like Maddux, Wagner, Oswalt, and Lincecum are always talked about here is because they all still pitch. When Feller broke into the Big Leagues, I was just a twinkle in my dad’s eye. That was over 60 years ago!!

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Feller had arm problems starting at age 29 and even though he pitched pretty well after that, his strikeouts took a huge drop. He also had very poor control and walked over 100 hitters 9 times in his career. In fact, he walked over 200 once. He lost alomost 4 years to World war 2 and that time away from the game sure did not help him any. In 4 of his last 5 years, he walked more guys than he struck out.

In a couple of the clips available through the HOF, he reverse-rotates his shoulders more than anyone I've ever seen. He basically strides backwards to the plate.

That may explain some of his control problems.

Holy Cow!

Chris you have hijacked another thread! Please start a new thread : Once again this thread was supposed to be about Tim Lincecum! Not about Maddux and your analysis of others!

**** it....

I notice that Lincecum and Maddux both reverse rotate their shoulders quite a bit. But they both also straighten their stride leg in front of them (towards 3rd base) and swing it around. This has the effect of causing their torso to lean back somewhat to maintain balance. My son started doing this out of the blue at the end of last season and I tried to get him to stop because it appeared to make the landing location of his stride foot more haphazard since it was sliding in from the side rather than a "down & out" stride.
I wonder how much of Tim's velocity is due to this back lean? Does it maybe allow further travel of his torso and hand thereby increasing velocity? I listened to an analysis of Andy Roddick's serve (tennis) a while back that said he was able to generate more velocity because he was able to bend back in the air so much further than anyone else giving him more velocity by the time of ball impact. Any thoughts?

quote:

Originally posted by baseballbum:
Chris you have hijacked another thread! Please start a new thread : Once again this thread was supposed to be about Tim Lincecum! Not about Maddux and your analysis of others!

Actually, bbscout brought up Maddux.

Yup

Oban53

quote:

My son started doing this out of the blue at the end of last season and I tried to get him to stop because it appeared to make the landing location of his stride foot more haphazard since it was sliding in from the side rather than a "down & out" stride.

The HOF is loaded with pitchers whose lead leg straightens out toward third (or first for LHP's) during their delivery. The "down and out" stride is a weak move, that inhibits the ability to properly use ones hips, and lower half for that matter.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
The HOF is loaded with pitchers whose lead leg straightens out toward third (or first for LHP's) during their delivery. The "down and out" stride is a weak move, that inhibits the ability to properly use ones hips, and lower half for that matter.

I don't think there's a hard and fast rule about this. There is TREMENDOUS variation in terms of what pro pitchers actually do in terms of the stride.

The one universal seems to be to keep the hips closed as long as possible and, just before the Glove Side foot lands, open the hips and rotating the GS foot so that it points at the target.

tpg

quote:

I don't think there's a hard and fast rule about this. There is TREMENDOUS variation in terms of what pro pitchers actually do in terms of the stride.

The one universal seems to be to keep the hips closed as long as possible and, just before the Glove Side foot lands, open the hips and rotating the GS foot so that it points at the target.

I dont know if there is a hard and fast rule about this, but if keeping your hips closed as long as possible is "universal", then how does that tie in with a "down and out" stride? Try a down and out stride, and tell me how long you can keep your hips closed...peace

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
I dont know if there is a hard and fast rule about this, but if keeping your hips closed as long as possible is "universal", then how does that tie in with a "down and out" stride? Try a down and out stride, and tell me how long you can keep your hips closed...peace

I don't have any problems keeping my hips closed if I stride down and out (versus swinging the leg out and around). You just have to stride sideways to the target with the GS toe pointed at 3B.

There are many pros who stride down and out instead of swinging their legs out and around.

- Josh Beckett

- Roger Clemens

Just because the leg doesnt totally bar out does not mean they go down and out. Clemens and Beckett do not go straight down or straight out. Down and out is probably poor terminology. If these two guys are down and out then you and I have diffrent views on what down and out looks like. To me down and out is lifting the stride leg up, lowering it down, and pushing it straight out. I dont see this in the Clemens and Beckett clips. Its more important to keep closed as long as possible (I think we agree here), and with that being said I also agree with the tremendous amount of variation in the stride.....but should someone teach a pitcher to not straighten their lead leg?....not IMO....peace

deemax, Your momma did not raise any fools. Good post meat.

BB, you didn't call deemack daddy meat, did ya'? BTW, his daddy taught him good too peace