Tim Lincecum ( anybody watch him pitch)

Hate to disagree, but hey!

For many years I taught pitchers to bring their stride foot down and stride fairly straight forward. I actually find it was much easier for them to stay closed once they understood the importance of their hips and midsection. It also was an easier way for them to maintain balance throughout the delivery. Also, I thought I noticed many who would open up too early just because of swinging their stride foot. That said, there are many pitching in the big leagues who come down and stride "fairly" straight forward.

BTW, Please don't mistake as bragging, but I have worked with a few who pitched in the Major Leagues using this method! And a couple others who are on the 40 man, knocking on the door now. But truthfully must admit, it didn't really matter what I told them. Maybe they would have been even better the other way.

I also have always taught pitchers to go straight down and out. I always tried to keep youth pitchers from moving too many body parts in too many different directions. I still think this is OK for kids, but I also think as their bodies and skills mature some other movements will come into the picture that may not be detrimental but in fact may enhance their delivery. It's probably more important that their motion is exactly replicated each time and that they way they land is the best setup for their delivery. More than one way to skin a cat as long as you're skinning the same cat!!??

When we talk about "staying closed", we need to remember we are talking about two different things, the hips and the shoulders. The hips will open up first at or a hair before landing while the shoulders are still closed. This creates the "torque" through the torso (like a spring)which is then released as the "explosion" of the pitch. Without opening the hips first (and this happens) the large muscles of the torso aren't getting utilized to their fullest.

TL looks great. He sweeps his landing foot as opposed to dropping it straight down and out. I video taped a LHP getting losse in a Jays game. His landing stride foot swept way out and the important thing was it landed where it should. I also believ and was taught that the lift foot was straight up and straight down and slide forward to landing. I have seen both in MLB and I am not sure one is better than the other. Sweeping tends to drop you down in a slight sit position. Both methods seem to work as long as you control your forward motion. To me it seems better to drop straight down inorder to control your alignment. TL has beautiful arm rotation and fluid motion.

If there are some major league pitchers who lift their lead leg up and then bring it straight down and then straight towards home without any swing, I would love to see the films of them doing it.

To me that is a slide step move that I see some pitchers use when they are doing the slide step. The two clips posted of Clemens and Beckett show that they don't go straight down and then straight to home plate with their lead leg.

Tom Seaver

Greg Maddux center field view

Here is a good clip of Seaver, and another view of Maddux when he was 19.

Hall of Fame pitchers who swept their lead leg-

Jim Bunning
Steve Carlton
Dizzy Dean
Bob Feller
Rollie Fingers
Lefty Gomez
Whitey Ford
Bob Gibson
Sandy Koufax
Carl Hubble
Catfish Hunter
Fergie Jenkins
Bob Lemon
Juan Marichal
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Nolan Ryan
Hoyt Wilhelm
Goose Goosage (soon!)
Christy Mathewson
Satchel Paige
Robin Roberts
Warren Spahn
Don Sutton
Cy Young
Dennis Eckersley

deemax,

Can't exactly remember all of those guys, but what I was describing is very much what Nolan Ryan did.

I have a very hard time calling him someone who was a leg sweeper.

Doug, I'm not talking straight up, straight down and straight forward, though there are some who I've seen do pretty much that. I'm talking up, down, forward... Not like it's done in robotic fashion. ie. Nolan Ryan

Here's a link to look at...
Click Ryan video on this page

If this is sweeping the leg to landing... I stand corrected!

.......A sweeper pitcher to me is like a sweeper hitter. Just sweep 'em in the dustpan and move on to the next prospect. peace

I believe the down and out motion often coincides with "staying back". I no longer teach staying back and I no longer teach down and out.

Does anyone think that the sweeping motion might contribute to the creation of rotational momentum in roughly the same plane in which the hips rotate thus enhancing hip and shoulder rotation?

I guess it is all in what we think we see or how we describe it. To me Nolan Ryan and Roger Clemens are up - down - fairly straight forward types.

down and out?

Roger Thomas

quote:

Does anyone think that the sweeping motion might contribute to the creation of rotational momentum in roughly the same plane in which the hips rotate thus enhancing hip and shoulder rotation?

yes

Nolan Ryan


If you start at frame 22 and then click through 6 more frames, you will see the sweeping of the lead leg. It is caused by good hip rotation, which all good pitchers have. You can't rotate your hips without the lead leg sweeping some, and if you don't rotate, you won't get your picture on TV.

That photo sure does look like he is sweeping. Please watch the video of Ryan throwing in his no hitters on that link, if you haven't already.

I'm curious if anyone watching that film clip would describe Ryan as a leg sweeper. There's a lot of pitches on that clip to view. And if that is the definition of a leg sweeper... I'm 100% all for it.

BTW, I think Nolan Ryan is the best pitcher ever to study. For several reasons... He threw as hard as anyone... He had a great breaking ball... He threw more pitches than any Major League pitcher ever. He had more strike outs than anyone and I'm aware he also walked more hitters than anyone. He also threw more no hitters than anyone. (Which is what the film clip is from)

In other words he was one of the best power pitchers ever and he lasted longer (threw more pitches) than anyone ever. That combination is enough reason to study his delivery closely.

I'm far from the world's biggest expert on pitching, but someone would need to prove that sweeping or swinging the leg is an actual benefit. And yes, I do know there are a lot of pitchers who do it!

It very well could be a matter of interpretation, because I really can't see it in that earlier clip of Clemens either.

Jerry, Did you look at the clip of Ryan that I just posted? Did you look at frames 22-28?

He had less sweep as he got older, and so does Maddux, because they were not as flexible and could not rotate their hips as well as they could when they were in their 20's.

In the clip, there is no mistake.....the leg sweeps some as his hips are rotating. Frames 22-28.

Doug,

I was writing when you posted that. For some reason I can't seem to view your clips. Couldn't get those earlier ones either.

Some apple quick time pops up and I don't know what to do.

Without seeing it I'm guessing every pitcher will have a small "sweep" into landing. However this is not what I'm talking about or what I would describe as a sweep or swing in the stride. When someone has a stride that swings in from the side it is altogether different from what I see in Ryan or Clemens. In my eyes, both are up, down, and to the plate. Anyway that is how I would describe it. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that most MLB pitchers or any good pitcher is up, down, to the plate to some extent. The biggest difference being how far down before the plate.

Is it Rob Nen (was he the mound kicker) who would be the best discription of straight up, straight down and straight forward?

Sure wish I could view the clip you posted to get a better idea what you guys are talking about here.

If you have Quicktime on your computer, you can view it. You can download Quicktime for free. Just go to Google and type in Quicktime and then follow the directions. I like it the best, because you can watch the clips in realtime, slow motion or frame by frame.

Watching hitting or pitching clips in slow mo or frame by frame is the only way to really see what is happening in the swing or delivery.

I'll try to check it at work tomorrow. I really can't get video that well on this laptop for some reason. Maybe have quicktime at work!

Think I understand what everyones talking about here. But to me, if I need frame by frame to see the sweep, it's not what I'm talking about.

I did see that old clip you had of Maddux when he was real young. I would call that a definite sweep. He has changed that hasn't he? Or at least to some degree.

What Koufax did is not what I see in Clemens or Ryan. Do you?

PG, I think everbody does it a little different in terms of style. I dont think making the lead leg sweep is as important as leading with the lead hip, but more often then not when the hip is leading first and it is closed, the stride leg will straighten out to a certain degree as it is left behind in order to store more power. As a coach who has made a great deal of adjustments, I understand teaching something because it is what you learned or heard from other instructers. My point being why tell a pitcher not to do something mechanically when nearly every single HOF'er does it. I feel it is a fact that if your leg sweeps around it is not a flaw, its something to work with and take advantage of, not to discourage. The evidence behind this is cant be wrong, there is just to much of it. Give me a shout PG...

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
Just because the leg doesnt totally bar out does not mean they go down and out. Clemens and Beckett do not go straight down or straight out. Down and out is probably poor terminology. If these two guys are down and out then you and I have diffrent views on what down and out looks like. To me down and out is lifting the stride leg up, lowering it down, and pushing it straight out. I dont see this in the Clemens and Beckett clips. Its more important to keep closed as long as possible (I think we agree here), and with that being said I also agree with the tremendous amount of variation in the stride.....but should someone teach a pitcher to not straighten their lead leg?....not IMO....peace

It's a relative thing. Beckett and Clemens are relatively more down and out. However, I doubt if you will find many major leaguers who are pure down and out.

In terms of straightening the lead leg, some guys do and some guys don't. I don't think it's an absolute.

quote:

Originally posted by Oban53:
I also have always taught pitchers to go straight down and out. I always tried to keep youth pitchers from moving too many body parts in too many different directions. I still think this is OK for kids, but I also think as their bodies and skills mature some other movements will come into the picture that may not be detrimental but in fact may enhance their delivery. It's probably more important that their motion is exactly replicated each time and that they way they land is the best setup for their delivery. More than one way to skin a cat as long as you're skinning the same cat!!??

When we talk about "staying closed", we need to remember we are talking about two different things, the hips and the shoulders. The hips will open up first at or a hair before landing while the shoulders are still closed. This creates the "torque" through the torso (like a spring)which is then released as the "explosion" of the pitch. Without opening the hips first (and this happens) the large muscles of the torso aren't getting utilized to their fullest.

I agree with both points.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Nolan Ryan


If you start at frame 22 and then click through 6 more frames, you will see the sweeping of the lead leg. It is caused by good hip rotation, which all good pitchers have. You can't rotate your hips without the lead leg sweeping some, and if you don't rotate, you won't get your picture on TV.

Interesting. You certain the leg sweep is caused by good hip rotation? Or is good hip rotation caused by the leg sweep? I'm inclined to believe leg sweep leads to more explosive hip rotation.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
PG, I think everbody does it a little different in terms of style. I dont think making the lead leg sweep is as important as leading with the lead hip, but more often then not when the hip is leading first and it is closed, the stride leg will straighten out to a certain degree as it is left behind in order to store more power. As a coach who has made a great deal of adjustments, I understand teaching something because it is what you learned or heard from other instructers. My point being why tell a pitcher not to do something mechanically when nearly every single HOF'er does it. I feel it is a fact that if your leg sweeps around it is not a flaw, its something to work with and take advantage of, not to discourage. The evidence behind this is cant be wrong, there is just to much of it. Give me a shout PG...

Deemax,

You and I are definitely on the same page. It's not a matter of whether a pitcher sweeps or not - it's a matter of how much he sweeps. Most coaches teach letting the stride foot hang below the knee during knee lift. That puts the foot in a position where it must sweep back in order to plant on the line between the back foot and home plate.

I also agree with your comment on leading with the hip. Leading with the hip often involves some counter-rotation of the hips and that pretty much rules out "down and out" as an option, IMHO.

I think the amount a pitcher drops during his stride also has bearing on how much he straightens out his stride leg.

Doug,

OK I get it at work!

This is what I would describe as beautiful! And yes, personally, I would describe it as - Up - Down - Straight to the plate. Watching the frame by frame, I can see how someone else might describe it as sweeping the leg.

deemax,

I agree completely regarding the lead hip! I also believe too much sweep can cause all kinds of problems for most pitchers. Balance, timing, control, and ability to repeat! Also think too much leg sweep can increase chance of injury, because of the above mentioned things.

That said, we all know that there are some great pitchers that had/have a giant leg sweep/swing!

There are other things that pitchers do to to help rotation. ie, lead with their heel. I never taught that either, but understand the theory behind it.

It's fun to talk to you guys who know what your talking about! Please understand I'll be a student to the day a die! So I appreciate any and all input, whether I agree or not doesn't make any difference. Besides, I've changed my mind a thousand times in the past!

PG, Nolan's foot is not directly under the knee at the apex of the leg lift. But his foot is going down & straight to the plate. It really doesn't get further out (away from the body) as he goes to plant. The foot just starts a little outside (e.g., at the apex).

So it could be interpreted by some as a "sweep" merely because the foot is outside the knee.

But the foot doesn't "kick" out. Thus I am with you on how I would classify the action. And I would not call it a sweep.

To me a sweep is where the foot travels further outward as it goes down and then arcs back to the plant position.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
To me a sweep is where the foot travels further outward as it goes down and then arcs back to the plant position.

I would classify Roy Oswalt as a sweeper...



However, I don't share the concern of others that this increases a pitcher's injury risk.

quote:

But his foot is going down & straight to the plate. It really doesn't get further out (away from the body) as he goes to plant. The foot just starts a little outside (e.g., at the apex).

?????


The epitome of sweeping into foot plant.

"Down and out" has been tought as a move of the stride foot to go up and come down (on a knee lift), or move straight forward on a slide step, following a path that is as parellel to a line formed between the posting foot and the target. The 2 x 4 "drill" was used for this purpose. This is designed to make the throwers postures and mechanics as linear as possible toward the target. Another intent of the drill was to prevent counter rotating of any body parts.

Nice clips Cap_n

quote:

Originally posted by cap_n:

Based on this, I'd say that Ryan was a more of a sweeper early on in his career and then became more down and out as he got older.

Painguy, I would like to see a clip of a good major league pitcher from the windup who does not sweep. You either sweep or you don't sweep. Some do it a little and some do it a lot, but I sure don't have any film of a guy who goes straight down and straight out.......do you?

Not to get too technical here.

For me it's pretty easy small guys like Lincecum, Ron Guidry (remember him) and Oswalt must be "sweepers' as you calling them because they rely so heavily on torque to generate arm speed and power. Little guys gotta torque that back side "snap it" to generate that juice.

Do they hold up - not really - it does put a strain on your body to put everything you have into velocity and you last longer if you're more vertical.

cap, look at Nolan clips with the Rangers, as I think bbscout posted earlier in this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Painguy, I would like to see a clip of a good major league pitcher from the windup who does not sweep. You either sweep or you don't sweep. Some do it a little and some do it a lot, but I sure don't have any film of a guy who goes straight down and straight out.......do you?

No.

Like I said, it's all relative.

Pure down and out is really pretty much impossible (even with a slide step). If you end up with the GS upper leg level and the GS foot below the GS knee, then you have to do some sweeping to get back on line (or else you will land extremely closed).

I think the real question is how much to the 3B side of the GS knee the GS foot goes (for a RHP).

Great clips Cap_n.!

This thread really hit home for me as my son "sweeps" as in the above clips (more or less), and he is trying to be "reformed" into a pure "down and outer" much to my displeasure.

I really see no other way to achieve a good throwing posture and loading, without sweeping the leg to some extent.

The more the better I say.

Boy, when I started this discussion about sweeping or down and out I had no idea it would generate this much. It's good though.

I don't think there is a problem with either down and out or "sweeping". I have seen many examples of both in MLB (no, I don't have clips). I believe that pitchers doing one or the other is not so much a concious decision as a normal adjustment to how they like to have their torso positioned during delivery. I think you will see that pitchers who like to "come over the top" will tend to sweep more. When I say over the top, their arm angle is still the same but their torso will be leaning to the left (for RHP) as they come through. They will, without thinking about it, set this up with a little more back leaning at the beginning of delivery. To do this they have to counter balance by extending their leg outward sooner. Think about it. The leg is pretty heavy. Try it yourself. When you stick your leg out you have to either move your butt back or lean back to balance. I think the leg sweep has more to do with where they want their center of gravity as they stride forward more than anything else. Here we go again!

A sweep is a...............

To answer the original Question "Tim Lincecum (anybody watch him pitch)"

I was able to watch nearly all of his outings last year at the UW.

I heard a whole bunch about the “look” of his wind-up. The interesting thing was that nearly everyone who watched him dominate, were impressed.
The game at Oregon State had Tim against Buck. The stadium was sold out. We were told there were only 4 no-shows. The best team in College baseball last year looked silly several times trying to hit Tim's fastball or curve ball.

The Seattle local press got on the Lincecum bandwagon. There were several articles, exposes and stories about Tim. The end results were that the days that Tim pitched, Husky Ball Park was packed.

I predict that Tim will become a fan favorite. People will come to games just to see this "different" pitcher battle. It reminds me of the fan buzz of when Mark “The Bird” Fidrych came onto the scene.

I'm sure we'll be watching Tim mow 'em down for many years to come. I wish him well. It's not easy to get where he is.

I would say that Joel Zumaya goes straight down and straight out. If I rememebr correctly, he does not sweep his leg at all.