Time for baseball
to face the music
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7144220/
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Dibble,
I get the public policy arguments (they can be made for any situation) - I am skeptical about the gov's ability to help the problem and quite frankly skeptical about their actual motives.
BTW, there is a poll in the article asking whether the government should be involved in the steroid issue. When I voted, it was 54% no and 46% yes. Assuming the poll is somewhat representative, I will assume 46% of the readers of this site disagree with my take on on government involvement in this area.
I see ML baseball as a private enterprise. If they (MLB) can't clean up the mess - so be it. Look at the music business, for instance. Why don't we hold hearings on all the dangerous drugs being abused in that situation. Don't misundertand, there is a problem with steroids in baseball and something needs to be done. In baseball's case, the negative publicity should do the trick along with testing and so forth.
I get the public policy arguments (they can be made for any situation) - I am skeptical about the gov's ability to help the problem and quite frankly skeptical about their actual motives.
BTW, there is a poll in the article asking whether the government should be involved in the steroid issue. When I voted, it was 54% no and 46% yes. Assuming the poll is somewhat representative, I will assume 46% of the readers of this site disagree with my take on on government involvement in this area.
I see ML baseball as a private enterprise. If they (MLB) can't clean up the mess - so be it. Look at the music business, for instance. Why don't we hold hearings on all the dangerous drugs being abused in that situation. Don't misundertand, there is a problem with steroids in baseball and something needs to be done. In baseball's case, the negative publicity should do the trick along with testing and so forth.
How about drug and alcohol abuse among lawyers, doctors, etc---the government does not intervene there and I for one am more concerned with the doctors abuses than baseball players.
I know personally of a group of surgeons that I was made aware of--don't have them operate on you on a certain day of the week--the night before is their "night out".
I know personally of a group of surgeons that I was made aware of--don't have them operate on you on a certain day of the week--the night before is their "night out".
Well the hearings will produce anything is hard to say. But it is puting a very negative light on baseball and they ignoring a long term problem of steriod abuse. A senator on Meet the Press mentioned 1 in 16 HS athletes use (Steriods)
Jose Canseco is likley resposible for alot of current publicity and even more responsible for dealing steriods to MLB players. The MLB steriod users are about as bright as crack addicts.
Jose Canseco is likley resposible for alot of current publicity and even more responsible for dealing steriods to MLB players. The MLB steriod users are about as bright as crack addicts.
Can't argue with the numbers or the valid points you make Dibble. We can probably quote similar numbers or worse for marijuana or EXSTACY (SP). The negative publicity was there before congress got involved and has already caused positive movement in the process. They are merely piling on at this point.
You shouldn't be skeptical of Congress's motives here. The motive is to get on TV and come across as donnie do-gooder.
It's a no-lose situation for them . Who's FOR steroid use?
The one good thing that might come out of this about this will be a total humiliation of the Players Union. How could they ever put any resistance to a drug testing policy after this?
It's a no-lose situation for them . Who's FOR steroid use?
The one good thing that might come out of this about this will be a total humiliation of the Players Union. How could they ever put any resistance to a drug testing policy after this?
You have to question the underlying agenda of anyone who doesn’t want to seek truth and accountability regarding the steroid issue.
Simple question. Do you think steroid is going up, down or stay the same since congress and public scrutiny has got MLB to get serious about steroids?
If they would have done this a few years ago, do you even think we’d be talking about it now?
It’s real easy to attack politicians and say they are grandstanding. On this issue they have already served as a catalyst in getting MLB to do something. Perhaps we should give them a little credit when credit is due. Most of the politicians I’ve known in my area are pretty decent people. The exception is Iowa Senator Tom Harkin who is as slimy as they come.
Simple question. Do you think steroid is going up, down or stay the same since congress and public scrutiny has got MLB to get serious about steroids?
If they would have done this a few years ago, do you even think we’d be talking about it now?
It’s real easy to attack politicians and say they are grandstanding. On this issue they have already served as a catalyst in getting MLB to do something. Perhaps we should give them a little credit when credit is due. Most of the politicians I’ve known in my area are pretty decent people. The exception is Iowa Senator Tom Harkin who is as slimy as they come.
I had watched Jose Canseco on TV last night and he made alot of very good points. If they had good steriod and drug testing program like the minor leagues, they would not have the steriod problem they do now. Players are looking for an edge and if they have to compete with steriod users, they think they have to take it to compete at that level. Players using steriod number have gone up, which meant they made more money, even more reason to cheat.
GM and coaches did not ask or care. Bud Selig and Donald Feir are at most to blame. Their policies led to this mess. Hopefully they will be grilled by the hearings
GM and coaches did not ask or care. Bud Selig and Donald Feir are at most to blame. Their policies led to this mess. Hopefully they will be grilled by the hearings
SBK and arizonared (see other thread) state the case quite well for congressional involvement in this matter. The government has already been involved however, with the FBI and Grand Jury indictments in the Balco case that led to the negative publicity in the first place. There is much agreement on all sides that steroids are a serious problem. I am all for enacting tougher steroid laws/penalties. Will that stop all steroid use? No. It will cause some to give up the practice however and that is about all I think we can hope for.
Help me understand why baseball is any different than any other form of entertainment such as movies, music, writing etc and deserves such focus by congress. We have some very tough drug laws in place and people continue using them. What about Dana Plato, or River Phoenix, Elvis, Rick Nelson, Judy Garland, Kurt Cobain, Hunter Thompson.... This list could be made enormous if we really tried. Am I way out in left field for wondering how Sylvester Stallone's appearance changed so dramatically after Rocky II?
I think congressional hearings are justified in certain cases. The Kennedy mafia hearings that led to the RICO laws being passed come to mind. Recently, we heard all this hullabaloo about McCain-Feingold and how money was corrupting politics. The last election saw the most money in the history of politics being spent. I am not trying to be right in this matter and am always open to changing my mind.
Help me understand why baseball is any different than any other form of entertainment such as movies, music, writing etc and deserves such focus by congress. We have some very tough drug laws in place and people continue using them. What about Dana Plato, or River Phoenix, Elvis, Rick Nelson, Judy Garland, Kurt Cobain, Hunter Thompson.... This list could be made enormous if we really tried. Am I way out in left field for wondering how Sylvester Stallone's appearance changed so dramatically after Rocky II?
I think congressional hearings are justified in certain cases. The Kennedy mafia hearings that led to the RICO laws being passed come to mind. Recently, we heard all this hullabaloo about McCain-Feingold and how money was corrupting politics. The last election saw the most money in the history of politics being spent. I am not trying to be right in this matter and am always open to changing my mind.
ClevelandDad....the entertainment industry has been mentioned frequently....Doctors, lawyers..., etc., etc.....the argument, as put forth by many is....they use, and abuse....why are we just concentrating on baseball. Well....there are laws in effect to bring criminal charges against those caught...and/or testing positive for illegal substances. We all know celebrities who have faced drug charges....even baseball players....IMO....the arena is different....very different.
Baseball is using a substance illegally, to make their game better, and at the same time they are saying to the "cop on the street and/or team officials"...you can test me... but you can't punish me...only if you catch me four times. Then they get to take a year off.... And how long did it take them to get to that point?
How many people do we know that can go to work...be it Hollywood or Hoboken and test positive 3 times for illegal drug usage and still stay working?
Besides, as a kid, my son didn't look up to Kurt Cobain or River Phoenix....
Baseball is using a substance illegally, to make their game better, and at the same time they are saying to the "cop on the street and/or team officials"...you can test me... but you can't punish me...only if you catch me four times. Then they get to take a year off.... And how long did it take them to get to that point?
How many people do we know that can go to work...be it Hollywood or Hoboken and test positive 3 times for illegal drug usage and still stay working?
Besides, as a kid, my son didn't look up to Kurt Cobain or River Phoenix....
Arizona,
Many fine points you raise - I hope you are not upset with me - merely expressing my opinion. I think we are both on the same side of the issue just differ slightly on the means to solve it. I mentioned Cobain and Phoenix for a reason. Phoenix has been in several movies that kids watch. Cobain's music is played on the radio every day. I get your point however, kids don't generally watch those movies and apsire to be like the actor's appearing in them.
Many fine points you raise - I hope you are not upset with me - merely expressing my opinion. I think we are both on the same side of the issue just differ slightly on the means to solve it. I mentioned Cobain and Phoenix for a reason. Phoenix has been in several movies that kids watch. Cobain's music is played on the radio every day. I get your point however, kids don't generally watch those movies and apsire to be like the actor's appearing in them.
ClevelandDad....I'm upset with a certain union boss, and association head...and a few players....and owners....but not you.....you also raise some good points. Now I'm off to a high school ballgame...where we will play the best team in town...they have the pitching depth we lack....maybe that's what I'm really upset about!
PS: Let me add...before anyone posts back at me....I'll be a happy smiling Mom at the game...and be very positive during and after...I've learned how not to behave!!!
PS: Let me add...before anyone posts back at me....I'll be a happy smiling Mom at the game...and be very positive during and after...I've learned how not to behave!!!
Hey Folks.... Has everyone forgot that MLB has gotten an Anti-Trust excemption? Which they recieved because they asked congress for it!
Congress has the right to remove the excemption, which would make them liable for operating a monopoly! Ask Bill Gates about anti-trust violations!
Congress has the right to remove the excemption, which would make them liable for operating a monopoly! Ask Bill Gates about anti-trust violations!
Not to change the subject, but what are the legal ramifications involved in an ordinary person taking steroids?
In other words, if a police officer stops someone and notices "steroid cream", does he arrest that person or ask to see a prescription. What then is the charge and what is likely to be the penalty?
I'm not talking about the people who distribute the stuff, but those who use it.
Why did the government not get involved when everyone knew that Mr. and Mrs body building champions were openly using steroids. Now we have the governor of California who states he used steroids. Shouldn't he be subpoenaed in this fact finding mission.
If steroids are the problem and it is, why limit it to just baseball? Let's get it out there in the open. Afterall, is this about steroids or is this just about baseball?
In other words, if a police officer stops someone and notices "steroid cream", does he arrest that person or ask to see a prescription. What then is the charge and what is likely to be the penalty?
I'm not talking about the people who distribute the stuff, but those who use it.
Why did the government not get involved when everyone knew that Mr. and Mrs body building champions were openly using steroids. Now we have the governor of California who states he used steroids. Shouldn't he be subpoenaed in this fact finding mission.
If steroids are the problem and it is, why limit it to just baseball? Let's get it out there in the open. Afterall, is this about steroids or is this just about baseball?
PG....would you please advise me of one sport in which steroid usage is approved of...better yet....please advise me of one sport in which a player can test positive for steroid usage and continue to play his/her sport?
Any and all federally regulated drugs, not available over the counter....must be prescribed by licensed professionals......and to make you stronger to play baseball better....would not be a reason for prescribing steroids....these drugs are harmful...hence the necessity to have them regulated...and dispensed for legitimate medical necessity. To do otherwise is illegal....and now to the citizen on the street...with steroid cream....if it wasn't prescribed for them...then yes, it's illegal...but PG...don't think you'll find many ordinary Joe's applying steroid cream...for the heck of it....
Intent, PG....it's all about intent....an ordinary citizen is not using steroids in the same arena as a baseball player. I stated this in my previous post...and I'l say it again....the arena is much different....as it should be....
I think...in athletic competition.....it should be a battle of skills, strength, endurance, intelligence, and some luck.....and there should also be rules.....rules are probably the most important factor....they prevent chaos, cheating, and a level field for all to start from and finish on.....one of the reasons we love our umpires so much....right? PG...where do steroids fit into this equation?
We have heard a lot of arguments that there are other things going on in our society that are worse and require attention....more so than steroids.....well...that will always be the case...but.....baseball....like it or not....got pushed to the front page....think their arrogance and continual refusal to institute and an effective program helped get them here....that and Jose's writing skills....
I can understand the resentment and anger about the attention it is now getting....I love baseball too...but....as much as I love the game....I resent the steroid usage...and what it is doing to the game.
Finally, PG...body building??? Is that a sport? Say it ain't so.....please!
Any and all federally regulated drugs, not available over the counter....must be prescribed by licensed professionals......and to make you stronger to play baseball better....would not be a reason for prescribing steroids....these drugs are harmful...hence the necessity to have them regulated...and dispensed for legitimate medical necessity. To do otherwise is illegal....and now to the citizen on the street...with steroid cream....if it wasn't prescribed for them...then yes, it's illegal...but PG...don't think you'll find many ordinary Joe's applying steroid cream...for the heck of it....
Intent, PG....it's all about intent....an ordinary citizen is not using steroids in the same arena as a baseball player. I stated this in my previous post...and I'l say it again....the arena is much different....as it should be....
I think...in athletic competition.....it should be a battle of skills, strength, endurance, intelligence, and some luck.....and there should also be rules.....rules are probably the most important factor....they prevent chaos, cheating, and a level field for all to start from and finish on.....one of the reasons we love our umpires so much....right? PG...where do steroids fit into this equation?
We have heard a lot of arguments that there are other things going on in our society that are worse and require attention....more so than steroids.....well...that will always be the case...but.....baseball....like it or not....got pushed to the front page....think their arrogance and continual refusal to institute and an effective program helped get them here....that and Jose's writing skills....
I can understand the resentment and anger about the attention it is now getting....I love baseball too...but....as much as I love the game....I resent the steroid usage...and what it is doing to the game.
Finally, PG...body building??? Is that a sport? Say it ain't so.....please!
As I noted in an earlier post the body builder fraternity, not that I consider it a sport, was up in arms when the story first broke--- they all use it in one form or another and they openly admitted it on a sports talk callin show
Also keep in mind that steroids are used to help a players "body" recover not necessarily make him a better hitter or pitcher.
EX: the year Big Mac broke the record was a year that he was totally healthy all year--until then he was always getting hurt
Heard Canseco on a morning talk show yesterday and he evaded every question regarding direct use of 'roids--all he said was "you read it in the book" --it is all about the book---do not get the idea that he is a "do gooder" trying to help the baseball community.
The craziness of the entire picture is that we have a Governor in California who admits being a "roids" user and nobody says anything while at the same time efforts are being made to change the laws so he can run for President.
I guess the government is being selective--by the way, Giambi has been excused and I think you can expect to see others excused as well
.
Also keep in mind that steroids are used to help a players "body" recover not necessarily make him a better hitter or pitcher.
EX: the year Big Mac broke the record was a year that he was totally healthy all year--until then he was always getting hurt
Heard Canseco on a morning talk show yesterday and he evaded every question regarding direct use of 'roids--all he said was "you read it in the book" --it is all about the book---do not get the idea that he is a "do gooder" trying to help the baseball community.
The craziness of the entire picture is that we have a Governor in California who admits being a "roids" user and nobody says anything while at the same time efforts are being made to change the laws so he can run for President.
I guess the government is being selective--by the way, Giambi has been excused and I think you can expect to see others excused as well
.
Although valid points have been stated, increasingly people are able to "rationalize" certain behavior, but the bottom line will always be...steroids = cheating.
quote:Also keep in mind that steroids are used to help a players "body" recover not necessarily make him a better hitter or pitcher.
TR, do you consider your statement above as science or is it just nonsensical BS? If so, state your source.
Ice, rest or going for a little jog is used to help a player’s body “Recover”, steroids are used by unethical players who want to increase strength without putting in all the work.
As everyone should know, increased strength is what athletes are striving for in order to increase their hitting or pitching.
TR, you can keep reproducing your inaccuracies but it doesn’t make them true. Is propagating these kinds of inaccuracies meant to minimize the seriousness of steroid use? What’s your agenda? TR, you are almost always on the good side of an issue that affects player’s health, why is this issue clouding your good judgment?
Steroids are injected into a chronically inflamed injury, by a doctor using sound, ethical medical standards. Those standards include an extremely moderate and limited approach. You can check with any AMA guideline to confirm.
SBK
I am humbled to be in your company since you know so much more than I !!!
BUT
If you call info from noted ortho docs who handle the likes of hockey players from the Rangers, Islanders and Devils as well as the football Jets nonsensical BS then so be it--I will trust what they tell me
You can believe what you want, that is your right but that does not make me wrong or you right.
There is no need to debate with you--I know what I know and you believe what you believe--great--that is why we can all go to the church we choose and vote for whom we choose
You think my judgement is clouded--it is your right to believe so--some might say yours is clouded-- I know my wife does
Trust me on this--though you might not think so, having had three boys play college ball I have done a bit of study on "roids" and other drugs and supplements -- I do not profess to know more than you or any other person but I do know what I know--that is enough for me--you take the trail you seek--I will take mine--I am happy there-
I am humbled to be in your company since you know so much more than I !!!
BUT
If you call info from noted ortho docs who handle the likes of hockey players from the Rangers, Islanders and Devils as well as the football Jets nonsensical BS then so be it--I will trust what they tell me
You can believe what you want, that is your right but that does not make me wrong or you right.
There is no need to debate with you--I know what I know and you believe what you believe--great--that is why we can all go to the church we choose and vote for whom we choose
You think my judgement is clouded--it is your right to believe so--some might say yours is clouded-- I know my wife does
Trust me on this--though you might not think so, having had three boys play college ball I have done a bit of study on "roids" and other drugs and supplements -- I do not profess to know more than you or any other person but I do know what I know--that is enough for me--you take the trail you seek--I will take mine--I am happy there-
quote:Trust me on this--though you might not think so, having had three boys play college ball I have done a bit of study on "roids" and other drugs and supplements --
TR,
So based on your, "bit of study", would you have wanted your boys to do steroids?
Would you want baseball to insure they are able to compete on a level playing field against nonsteroid users?
So why not join us in doing everything reasonably possible to make it happen?
arizonared,
Please don't think that I am pro-steroids for baseball. That is certainly not the message I want to give. I'm as much against steroid usage as anyone else who posts here. I have not read a single post where anyone feels using steroids is "good" for the game.
My question was... What exactly are the legal charges involving using steroids? Is it a felony? Do people go to prison? Is it the same as other drugs? I'm just curious, because the penalty involved needs to be a strong deterrent.
We do know what MLB has set up for penalties and I agree that they are not stiff enough. But, it's a start in the right direction. There are many reasons players are not going to want to be on that list of suspended players. To me the biggest penalty is being recognized as a steroid user. It is a small step in the right direction.
I heard the figure of 1 of every 16 high school athletes is using steroids. Does anyone really believe that? If that number is true, the government needs to step up in a much bigger way than holding a hearing for MLB players and officials. If somehow true, this problem is so much bigger than Major League baseball. I for one, don't believe those figures, but it is alarming.
While using steroids may be cheating, cheating in baseball has gone on for more than a century. I'm not saying that corked bats, spit balls, etc. are as dangerous as steroids, but they do and have had an affect on the record books.
To think that steroids are not used in other arenas besides baseball is naive. There are many reasons someone in the general public might try to get bigger and stronger. Supplements that are legal are big business throughout the country. So one has to realize there are many who are going to go the extra mile and use the "illegal" substances.
What I'm saying is this "is" a big problem! But, it seems as though baseball is getting more of a black eye than everyone else. However, if baseball can help solve this problem, then it's a good thing.
Do you think Ahnold should be at the hearings? Afterall, what other "elected official" has more experience and knoweledge of this subject?
Please don't think that I am pro-steroids for baseball. That is certainly not the message I want to give. I'm as much against steroid usage as anyone else who posts here. I have not read a single post where anyone feels using steroids is "good" for the game.
My question was... What exactly are the legal charges involving using steroids? Is it a felony? Do people go to prison? Is it the same as other drugs? I'm just curious, because the penalty involved needs to be a strong deterrent.
We do know what MLB has set up for penalties and I agree that they are not stiff enough. But, it's a start in the right direction. There are many reasons players are not going to want to be on that list of suspended players. To me the biggest penalty is being recognized as a steroid user. It is a small step in the right direction.
I heard the figure of 1 of every 16 high school athletes is using steroids. Does anyone really believe that? If that number is true, the government needs to step up in a much bigger way than holding a hearing for MLB players and officials. If somehow true, this problem is so much bigger than Major League baseball. I for one, don't believe those figures, but it is alarming.
While using steroids may be cheating, cheating in baseball has gone on for more than a century. I'm not saying that corked bats, spit balls, etc. are as dangerous as steroids, but they do and have had an affect on the record books.
To think that steroids are not used in other arenas besides baseball is naive. There are many reasons someone in the general public might try to get bigger and stronger. Supplements that are legal are big business throughout the country. So one has to realize there are many who are going to go the extra mile and use the "illegal" substances.
What I'm saying is this "is" a big problem! But, it seems as though baseball is getting more of a black eye than everyone else. However, if baseball can help solve this problem, then it's a good thing.
Do you think Ahnold should be at the hearings? Afterall, what other "elected official" has more experience and knoweledge of this subject?
SBK
For some reason you seem to have a personal vendetta with me--- your choice
Never said I advocated steroids --did'nt I say I did research because of the boys
My "bit of study" as you term it was my own research with constant input from docs in the field.
WHAT I AM SAYING,, please read my lips SBK, is that the goverment is being quite selective in this process---why not bring football , basketball and all other sports into the picture--- they are making it seem that baseball is the only sinner--- why are football players having strokes and heart attacks in their forties after they retire--and please-- dont give me the Caminiti stuff-- he was a crackhead/herion user-- look where he died-- it was crak heaven --that was not steroids
If the government wants to do it right then bring all the sports in before them--not just baseball-- does this all have to do with baseball being exempt from the anuit trust laws===perhaps !!!! Just Perhaps
You can purchase steroids on the internet--- Why is that allowed by the government?
For some reason you seem to have a personal vendetta with me--- your choice
Never said I advocated steroids --did'nt I say I did research because of the boys
My "bit of study" as you term it was my own research with constant input from docs in the field.
WHAT I AM SAYING,, please read my lips SBK, is that the goverment is being quite selective in this process---why not bring football , basketball and all other sports into the picture--- they are making it seem that baseball is the only sinner--- why are football players having strokes and heart attacks in their forties after they retire--and please-- dont give me the Caminiti stuff-- he was a crackhead/herion user-- look where he died-- it was crak heaven --that was not steroids
If the government wants to do it right then bring all the sports in before them--not just baseball-- does this all have to do with baseball being exempt from the anuit trust laws===perhaps !!!! Just Perhaps
You can purchase steroids on the internet--- Why is that allowed by the government?
TR,
Stop it with the personal “Vendetta” stuff. Anyone who has read my posts the last couple of weeks knows that you are one of my favorite posters.
When people start rationalizing, minimizing or throwing up obstacles regarding my hope of, “Total elimination of steroid use in baseball”, I call them on it.
As far as the government being selective on picking on baseball, my attitude is that I’m thankful they are doing it. It appears that it is the only way my stated hope may be reached within a reasonable time frame.
TR, you bring up football. Football appears to have cleaned up their mess. If baseball used their steroid testing program as a blueprint, baseball would be a cleaner sport.
As far as congress giving baseball a black eye, I say baseball did a good job of doing it to themselves. Congress is just trying to keep this black eye from becoming a contagious disease and I am thankful someone is providing baseball with the balls to do something about it.
I have 3 boys coming up and I do not want them to do steroids or have to compete against cheaters who do. I'm sure others join me in this sentiment. TR, my friend, join me in being supportive of doing whatever is necessary for the “Total elimination of steroid use in baseball”.
Stop it with the personal “Vendetta” stuff. Anyone who has read my posts the last couple of weeks knows that you are one of my favorite posters.
When people start rationalizing, minimizing or throwing up obstacles regarding my hope of, “Total elimination of steroid use in baseball”, I call them on it.
As far as the government being selective on picking on baseball, my attitude is that I’m thankful they are doing it. It appears that it is the only way my stated hope may be reached within a reasonable time frame.
TR, you bring up football. Football appears to have cleaned up their mess. If baseball used their steroid testing program as a blueprint, baseball would be a cleaner sport.
As far as congress giving baseball a black eye, I say baseball did a good job of doing it to themselves. Congress is just trying to keep this black eye from becoming a contagious disease and I am thankful someone is providing baseball with the balls to do something about it.
I have 3 boys coming up and I do not want them to do steroids or have to compete against cheaters who do. I'm sure others join me in this sentiment. TR, my friend, join me in being supportive of doing whatever is necessary for the “Total elimination of steroid use in baseball”.
To answer the question as to what might happen to anyone caught with steroids illegally:
---------------
The Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990 became law on November 29, 1990, when former President Bush signed the Omnibus Crime Control Bill. The law applies in every Federal court across the country. It places steroids in the same legal class - Schedule III -- as barbiturates, LSD precursors, veterinary tranquilizers like ketamine and narcotic painkillers like Vicodin. Simple possession of any Schedule III substance is a federal offense punishable by up to one year in prison and/or a minimum fine of $1,000. Simple possession by a person with a previous conviction for certain offenses, including any drug or narcotic crimes, must get imprisonment of at least 15 days and up to two years, and a minimum fine of $2,500. Individuals with two or more such previous convictions face imprisonment of not less than 90 days but not more than three years, and a minimum fine of $5,000, just for simply possessing. Selling steroids, or possessing them with intent to sell, is a federal felony. An individual who sells steroids, or possesses with intent to sell, is punishable by up to five years in prison (with at least two additional years of supervised release) and/or a $250,000 fine. An individual who commits such a violation after a prior conviction for a drug offense faces up to ten years imprisonment (with at least four additional years of special parole) and/or increased fines.
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Steroid Law
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Congress can get involved more easily with this because of the Ant-Trust Exemption --- that makes it "their business"; other professional sports, the entertainment industry, and any stray high-powered professionals don't enjoy that exemption.
---------------
The Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990 became law on November 29, 1990, when former President Bush signed the Omnibus Crime Control Bill. The law applies in every Federal court across the country. It places steroids in the same legal class - Schedule III -- as barbiturates, LSD precursors, veterinary tranquilizers like ketamine and narcotic painkillers like Vicodin. Simple possession of any Schedule III substance is a federal offense punishable by up to one year in prison and/or a minimum fine of $1,000. Simple possession by a person with a previous conviction for certain offenses, including any drug or narcotic crimes, must get imprisonment of at least 15 days and up to two years, and a minimum fine of $2,500. Individuals with two or more such previous convictions face imprisonment of not less than 90 days but not more than three years, and a minimum fine of $5,000, just for simply possessing. Selling steroids, or possessing them with intent to sell, is a federal felony. An individual who sells steroids, or possesses with intent to sell, is punishable by up to five years in prison (with at least two additional years of supervised release) and/or a $250,000 fine. An individual who commits such a violation after a prior conviction for a drug offense faces up to ten years imprisonment (with at least four additional years of special parole) and/or increased fines.
--------------
Steroid Law
----------------
Congress can get involved more easily with this because of the Ant-Trust Exemption --- that makes it "their business"; other professional sports, the entertainment industry, and any stray high-powered professionals don't enjoy that exemption.
SBK
Talk about blinders--- football players are smart enough to make it work for them--it has not "cleaned up" as you say--- where is the government with regard to "roids" in HS ?
I am all for 'roids" being eliminated but not at the cost of making baseball the scapegoat, which they, the government, is striving to do. At least in my eyes.
Talk about blinders--- football players are smart enough to make it work for them--it has not "cleaned up" as you say--- where is the government with regard to "roids" in HS ?
I am all for 'roids" being eliminated but not at the cost of making baseball the scapegoat, which they, the government, is striving to do. At least in my eyes.
PG...I don't recall ever saying you were pro-steroid usage. We can debate penalities, fairness, and usage... until the cows come home...but I'm not going to....said all I have to say on the subject....I'm now leaving it up to my elected representatives to sort through....if they think Arnold can shed some light on steroid usage in baseball...(???)...let them call him...don't care....
TR...when my son gets in trouble he'll say..."well yeah mom, but what about the other kid....he did this or he did that...."trying to deflect blame...and my anger...
This defense never worked for my kid...nor will it work for baseball.....as I said in an earlier post....we can blame Jose's book...or MLB/Players Union arrogance .....take your pick...it doesn't matter...
I can't work up any sympathy for the situation...I'm on the side of anger....they brought this on themselves....
TR...when my son gets in trouble he'll say..."well yeah mom, but what about the other kid....he did this or he did that...."trying to deflect blame...and my anger...
This defense never worked for my kid...nor will it work for baseball.....as I said in an earlier post....we can blame Jose's book...or MLB/Players Union arrogance .....take your pick...it doesn't matter...
I can't work up any sympathy for the situation...I'm on the side of anger....they brought this on themselves....
TR,
Stop it before you lose credibility in areas where you are better informed.
Are you familiar with the NFL program? You can’t be if you think baseball and football are even remotely similar.
Here is a link that talks about it and why it is much different than baseball’s attitude. http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=cr-steroids121604&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
The article talks about the random testing and the possibility of being penalized 25% of your salary.
You lose me when you ask where the government is regarding other sports as well as high school. Is this just a smoke screen or an obstacle in trying to get the government out of baseball?
TR, Do you think the government’s attention to baseball is or will have a positive effect in achieving my and others goal of, “The total elimination of steroids in baseball”?
Then why wouldn’t everyone who shares my goal welcome it? Do you welcome it?
Stop it before you lose credibility in areas where you are better informed.
Are you familiar with the NFL program? You can’t be if you think baseball and football are even remotely similar.
Here is a link that talks about it and why it is much different than baseball’s attitude. http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=cr-steroids121604&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
The article talks about the random testing and the possibility of being penalized 25% of your salary.
You lose me when you ask where the government is regarding other sports as well as high school. Is this just a smoke screen or an obstacle in trying to get the government out of baseball?
TR, Do you think the government’s attention to baseball is or will have a positive effect in achieving my and others goal of, “The total elimination of steroids in baseball”?
Then why wouldn’t everyone who shares my goal welcome it? Do you welcome it?
SBK
I do not need you tell me what I do or not know--get off that platform
You keep talking about your goal--who the heck are you--a politician ?? --I have the same goal but I am realistic not unrealistically idealistic--you think football players dont do 'roids---then explain the high incidence of spousal abuse among football players and the number of retired players having strokes and heart attacks--ever hear of masking agents ???
I never said baseball and football are similar--
Why dont you cease and desist--no need to debate anymore-- enjoy yourself---
I do not need you tell me what I do or not know--get off that platform
You keep talking about your goal--who the heck are you--a politician ?? --I have the same goal but I am realistic not unrealistically idealistic--you think football players dont do 'roids---then explain the high incidence of spousal abuse among football players and the number of retired players having strokes and heart attacks--ever hear of masking agents ???
I never said baseball and football are similar--
Why dont you cease and desist--no need to debate anymore-- enjoy yourself---
Arizonared,
You make your case so well. I share your passion and anger regarding this issue.
It is an insult to common sense to watch baseball handle this issue.
You are so right when you compare them to the way a kid might act. Everyone knows they treat this issue like it’s a game. I wouldn’t accept this behavior from my employees or my kids.
They could have solved this problem fairly easily and could have done so a long time ago if they were sincere.
There latest attempt, everyone should be able to recognize is a bandaid. Baseball has proven that they cannot police themselves. They are embarrassing themselves and are poor stewards of the game.
So I ask myself, where is the outrage and passion from every single baseball fan, parent and citizen? How can anyone rationalize what’s going on. The byline I adopted by Edmond Burke is so true. Steroids represent evil and it’s time for all good people to make a stand!
You make your case so well. I share your passion and anger regarding this issue.
It is an insult to common sense to watch baseball handle this issue.
You are so right when you compare them to the way a kid might act. Everyone knows they treat this issue like it’s a game. I wouldn’t accept this behavior from my employees or my kids.
They could have solved this problem fairly easily and could have done so a long time ago if they were sincere.
There latest attempt, everyone should be able to recognize is a bandaid. Baseball has proven that they cannot police themselves. They are embarrassing themselves and are poor stewards of the game.
So I ask myself, where is the outrage and passion from every single baseball fan, parent and citizen? How can anyone rationalize what’s going on. The byline I adopted by Edmond Burke is so true. Steroids represent evil and it’s time for all good people to make a stand!
Orlando,
Thanks for all that information. It would be interesting to know how many have been charged and thus penalized.
SBK,
I share your opinion of eliminating steroids, but there will never be total elimination as long as steroids can be prescribed.
The reason I think this important issue is somewhat blown out of proportion... I received an email from a parent who was disappointed in the grade we gave their son at an underclassmen event. I usually don't mind these type emails because I realize we do make mistakes at times. Sometimes people have a legitimate point and we want to listen.
However, the complaints in this case were as follows... "Our son didn't stand a chance against all those ROID boys out there. All you have to do is look at them (15-16) year olds and realize they are all doing ROIDS. You should take this into account when ranking these boys. Don't you care about those who play by the rules? How do you think those young boys got that big and strong? Wake up and be fair!"
I must admit, we do not test participants for Steroids. But, I know from experience that some boys are bigger, stronger and more talented than other boys the same age. We never used to get these kind of complaints.
What bothers me is without a method to totally ban steroid use, some people will always fall back on "he is that good because he is on steroids". "He is that big and strong because of steroids." "He hit that homerun because of steroids"
The innocent become suspects. There are other ways to get strong. Anyone who follows college football must know about the types who come to college at 6'3/210 and end up as linemen weighing 300 lbs or more. Not pointing fingers, but how they doing that?
Thanks for all that information. It would be interesting to know how many have been charged and thus penalized.
SBK,
I share your opinion of eliminating steroids, but there will never be total elimination as long as steroids can be prescribed.
The reason I think this important issue is somewhat blown out of proportion... I received an email from a parent who was disappointed in the grade we gave their son at an underclassmen event. I usually don't mind these type emails because I realize we do make mistakes at times. Sometimes people have a legitimate point and we want to listen.
However, the complaints in this case were as follows... "Our son didn't stand a chance against all those ROID boys out there. All you have to do is look at them (15-16) year olds and realize they are all doing ROIDS. You should take this into account when ranking these boys. Don't you care about those who play by the rules? How do you think those young boys got that big and strong? Wake up and be fair!"
I must admit, we do not test participants for Steroids. But, I know from experience that some boys are bigger, stronger and more talented than other boys the same age. We never used to get these kind of complaints.
What bothers me is without a method to totally ban steroid use, some people will always fall back on "he is that good because he is on steroids". "He is that big and strong because of steroids." "He hit that homerun because of steroids"
The innocent become suspects. There are other ways to get strong. Anyone who follows college football must know about the types who come to college at 6'3/210 and end up as linemen weighing 300 lbs or more. Not pointing fingers, but how they doing that?
TR,
I will not cease and desist regarding this issue. That is how evil triumphs, remember?
Why must I be a politician to state my hope of, “Total elimination of steroids in baseball”.
As far as debate, what are you talking about? You have yet to answer any direct question I pose to you.
Did you even read the linked article?
Do you think baseball would have better served if they took a similar approach as the NFL?
Here are a couple of the previous ones I asked of you.
TR, Do you think the government’s attention to baseball is or will have a positive effect in achieving my and others goal of, “The total elimination of steroids in baseball”?
Then why wouldn’t everyone who shares my goal welcome it? Do you welcome it?
I don’t take this personal and have always tried to make my posts factual, respectful and as an intelligent as I can. I have tried to provide 3rd party documentation when helpful. I appreciate the opportunity to defend my positions and convictions. I thought this site was about reasonable discussion. Would you prefer that I not frequent this site because I ask the same of others?
I will not cease and desist regarding this issue. That is how evil triumphs, remember?
Why must I be a politician to state my hope of, “Total elimination of steroids in baseball”.
As far as debate, what are you talking about? You have yet to answer any direct question I pose to you.
Did you even read the linked article?
Do you think baseball would have better served if they took a similar approach as the NFL?
Here are a couple of the previous ones I asked of you.
TR, Do you think the government’s attention to baseball is or will have a positive effect in achieving my and others goal of, “The total elimination of steroids in baseball”?
Then why wouldn’t everyone who shares my goal welcome it? Do you welcome it?
I don’t take this personal and have always tried to make my posts factual, respectful and as an intelligent as I can. I have tried to provide 3rd party documentation when helpful. I appreciate the opportunity to defend my positions and convictions. I thought this site was about reasonable discussion. Would you prefer that I not frequent this site because I ask the same of others?
quote:Anyone who follows college football must know about the types who come to college at 6'3/210 and end up as linemen weighing 300 lbs or more. Not pointing fingers, but how they doing that?
PG,
I can't speak for anyone else, but here at the University of Tennessee we use "Pinto Beans and Ham Hocks".
original post by PGStaff
arizonared,
You said
Here are a few replies you wrote regarding the post above.
Does this sound like it's directed to a person firmly against Steroids?
Does this sound like it's directed to a person firmly against Steroids?
Does this sound like it's directed to a person firmly against Steroids?
Does this sound like I'm against Steroids?
Don't know, but didn't say it was. Does this sound directed to some one who is against Steroids?
arizonared,
I apologize for being so touchy, but I want to make it perfectly clear on which side of this issue I stand. I know it is sometimes difficult to write things exactly how one feels. Please understand, that my concern is that others could have read only your post and got the wrong impression. Often I don't have the time to read an entire thread, so I take it for granted some others don't either.
On a more personal note... I agree with pretty much everything you are saying. I just sort of felt I was put on the stand there. I don't think that was your intention. Once again, sorry for being so touchy.
quote:Not to change the subject, but what are the legal ramifications involved in an ordinary person taking steroids?
In other words, if a police officer stops someone and notices "steroid cream", does he arrest that person or ask to see a prescription. What then is the charge and what is likely to be the penalty?
I'm not talking about the people who distribute the stuff, but those who use it.
Why did the government not get involved when everyone knew that Mr. and Mrs body building champions were openly using steroids. Now we have the governor of California who states he used steroids. Shouldn't he be subpoenaed in this fact finding mission.
If steroids are the problem and it is, why limit it to just baseball? Let's get it out there in the open. Afterall, is this about steroids or is this just about baseball?
arizonared,
You said
quote:PG...I don't recall ever saying you were pro-steroid usage.
Here are a few replies you wrote regarding the post above.
quote:PG....would you please advise me of one sport in which steroid usage is approved of...better yet....please advise me of one sport in which a player can test positive for steroid usage and continue to play his/her sport?
Does this sound like it's directed to a person firmly against Steroids?
quote:but PG...don't think you'll find many ordinary Joe's applying steroid cream...for the heck of it
Does this sound like it's directed to a person firmly against Steroids?
quote:Intent, PG....it's all about intent
Does this sound like it's directed to a person firmly against Steroids?
quote:rules are probably the most important factor....they prevent chaos, cheating, and a level field for all to start from and finish on.....one of the reasons we love our umpires so much....right? PG...where do steroids fit into this equation?
Does this sound like I'm against Steroids?
quote:Finally, PG...body building??? Is that a sport? Say it ain't so.....please!
Don't know, but didn't say it was. Does this sound directed to some one who is against Steroids?
arizonared,
I apologize for being so touchy, but I want to make it perfectly clear on which side of this issue I stand. I know it is sometimes difficult to write things exactly how one feels. Please understand, that my concern is that others could have read only your post and got the wrong impression. Often I don't have the time to read an entire thread, so I take it for granted some others don't either.
On a more personal note... I agree with pretty much everything you are saying. I just sort of felt I was put on the stand there. I don't think that was your intention. Once again, sorry for being so touchy.
HV,
Here in Iowa they're Corn Fed Cattle, errr Linemen.
Here in Iowa they're Corn Fed Cattle, errr Linemen.
PG,
I have absolutely no doubt that you share my hope of, “The total elimination of steroids in baseball”. I would hope that all good baseball people do. The problem I have is that some people want to rationalize or minimize the problem or create obstacles. For example, the government is providing a catalyst for baseball to get serious about confronting the problem. After watching baseball “Handle” the issue, I wish they wouldn’t have had to, but now I recognize it’s needed and welcome their involvement.
As far as showcases, I’m sure there are some kids who are doing steroids. The short-term benefits are too easy and advantageous for some to turn down.
You are right, there are also many kids who have busted their butt lifting weights in addition to many who have been blessed with good genetics who some may wrongly assume are doing steroids.
Until there is something done at all levels, there is going to be a problem.
As far as some people using this as an excuse for their lack of their own performance, some people will use anything. I would remind these people as well as my own kids that just cause a few kids use steroids to shortcut the system, it does not mean that they can’t elect to better themselves by building their bodies up the old fashioned way.
I do believe that good will eventually prevail and eventually the cheaters will be exposed and they will reap what they sow. I do not wish bad health upon them but that’s what the cheaters have to look forward to, even if their sport doesn’t penalize them.
As far as showcases, I think there are probably better venues for testing such as high school and college sports but I can see the day when you guys or others might provide an option for players to prove they are clean if they choose.
If I were a player who busted their rear, I’d be proud of it and welcome a chance to prove it. Eventually, if not already colleges as well as professional affiliations will have a vested interest in knowing which athletes are for real and which ones are manufactured. When this happens and there is accountability, the potential for steroid use at this level will be reduced significantly.
PG, speaking of corn fed beef. That sounds good, I think I’m going to lunch and get a little slab of creatine.
I have absolutely no doubt that you share my hope of, “The total elimination of steroids in baseball”. I would hope that all good baseball people do. The problem I have is that some people want to rationalize or minimize the problem or create obstacles. For example, the government is providing a catalyst for baseball to get serious about confronting the problem. After watching baseball “Handle” the issue, I wish they wouldn’t have had to, but now I recognize it’s needed and welcome their involvement.
As far as showcases, I’m sure there are some kids who are doing steroids. The short-term benefits are too easy and advantageous for some to turn down.
You are right, there are also many kids who have busted their butt lifting weights in addition to many who have been blessed with good genetics who some may wrongly assume are doing steroids.
Until there is something done at all levels, there is going to be a problem.
As far as some people using this as an excuse for their lack of their own performance, some people will use anything. I would remind these people as well as my own kids that just cause a few kids use steroids to shortcut the system, it does not mean that they can’t elect to better themselves by building their bodies up the old fashioned way.
I do believe that good will eventually prevail and eventually the cheaters will be exposed and they will reap what they sow. I do not wish bad health upon them but that’s what the cheaters have to look forward to, even if their sport doesn’t penalize them.
As far as showcases, I think there are probably better venues for testing such as high school and college sports but I can see the day when you guys or others might provide an option for players to prove they are clean if they choose.
If I were a player who busted their rear, I’d be proud of it and welcome a chance to prove it. Eventually, if not already colleges as well as professional affiliations will have a vested interest in knowing which athletes are for real and which ones are manufactured. When this happens and there is accountability, the potential for steroid use at this level will be reduced significantly.
PG, speaking of corn fed beef. That sounds good, I think I’m going to lunch and get a little slab of creatine.
SBK
Plain and simple the Governments role right now is to make themselves look like Knights in shining armor on white stallions coming to the rescues as belated as it may be.
I answer your questions --why not answer mine-- a Governor who admitted he was on steroids? Why cannot he brought in to testify?--
Can you explain why Roger Maris never hit more than 40 home runs other than the year he hit 61-- can you explain that other than calling is a "Career Year"?
You can have your goals no matter how idealistic they may seem--they are yours --we all have the same dream but some are more realistic in their dreaming than others
Why not a testing system in HS to prevent it before it starts? Won't happen !!!--invasion of peoples rights-- but that is where it should begin, not in the pros-- I am all for mandatory testing of HS athletes, male and female in all sports esepcially tennis-- do you thing the Williams sisters have "natural" bodies? Did Martina?- do that and we are nipping it in the bud before it starts-- will you alLow your kids to be tested randomly? Mine where
Plain and simple the Governments role right now is to make themselves look like Knights in shining armor on white stallions coming to the rescues as belated as it may be.
I answer your questions --why not answer mine-- a Governor who admitted he was on steroids? Why cannot he brought in to testify?--
Can you explain why Roger Maris never hit more than 40 home runs other than the year he hit 61-- can you explain that other than calling is a "Career Year"?
You can have your goals no matter how idealistic they may seem--they are yours --we all have the same dream but some are more realistic in their dreaming than others
Why not a testing system in HS to prevent it before it starts? Won't happen !!!--invasion of peoples rights-- but that is where it should begin, not in the pros-- I am all for mandatory testing of HS athletes, male and female in all sports esepcially tennis-- do you thing the Williams sisters have "natural" bodies? Did Martina?- do that and we are nipping it in the bud before it starts-- will you alLow your kids to be tested randomly? Mine where
quote:As far as showcases, I think there are probably better venues for testing such as high school and college sports but I can see the day when you guys or others might provide an option for players to prove they are clean if they choose.
SBK,
All ideas are welcome, but I doubt the day will come that players will be tested at these events. I do think high schools and colleges could and should implement something.
The problem with allowing players to prove they are clean, is in essence you are making it mandatory. Those who decline testing will be labeled.
We would be interested in any ideas that might include our involvement in the fight against drugs, including steroids.
I do think it's a big problem that needs to be addressed. After reading what you and arizonared and others think, I'm kind of changing my mind about the government getting involved. Still think they have more important issues and wonder if they are involved for all the right reasons. But if it helps, that's a very good thing!
I believe pretty much everyone is on the same page here including TR. It's just when people get to discussing these things, sometimes it gets confusing. Usually I try to stay away from contoversial subjects on this board for fear of being misunderstood. This one got me though.
I am a sweet corn addict. I heard Bill Maher, the guy on HBO, say corn was one of the worst things we can eat. I'm going to keep eating it!
I truly believe if Bonds were still in the 500 HR club and not the 700 HR club knocking on Ruth and Aaron's door, this is a
non-issue.
non-issue.
PG
I agree that we are all on the same page-- but where do you start in knocking "roids " out of the box---I think it has to happen at the HS level and then go from there--if it happens there the problem lessens in college and at the pro level
I agree that we are all on the same page-- but where do you start in knocking "roids " out of the box---I think it has to happen at the HS level and then go from there--if it happens there the problem lessens in college and at the pro level