Time to Clean House

Bulldog

I just heard the best line from a sports announcer--"You cannot show up the umpire" --what about the umpire showing up the players !--As Ozzie said today--"the fans come to see the players not the umpires"--do the umpires know that???

You cannot show up the umpire.

Instant replay proves the umpire correct about 95% of the time. Yes we miss a few, we are human and sometimes things happen that prevent us from getting the best possible look at a play. We have to make a call.

Remember;

1. I am in a better position to see the play than the coach is

2. I am better trained than the coach is to see the play

3. I am totally objective when making a call, whereas the coach is highly biased to get the call that favors him.

The coaches see what they want to see.

In the case of judgement calls, umpires are the final authority on the field.

We, as umpires, do not need to take the **** that moron coaches attempt to dish out when they disagree with our call.

quote:

We, as umpires, do not need to take the **** that moron coaches attempt to dish out when they disagree with our call.

Watch some recent film, would ya?

Umpires storming out to the mound, umpires making contact with players and managers. Umpires in Major League Baseball need to do their jobs and lose the ego.

Wow? "Remove every single" one of them, eh?

Dealing with facts rather than emotion and looking at the complete picture that one or two pixels reveals:

Umpires are correct 95%+ of the time. When they err it ususally due to a mechanics issue. MLB fired all MLB umpire supervisore before this season, hired new ones and gave them the mandate to fix the mechanics issue. That has begun.

Now then, please name a manager or player who has 95% a rating for doing his job with mistakes.

If you want to be taken seriously and as a TWhit clone, try starting a reasonable conversation about a specific call that we can look at and discuss rationally.

If you're just intent on back bench bomb throwing, well, fee free. TWhit has us used to that.

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Originally posted by TRhit:
Bulldog

I just heard the best line from a sports announcer--"You cannot show up the umpire" --what about the umpire showing up the players !--As Ozzie said today--"the fans come to see the players not the umpires"--do the umpires know that???

I hope you didn't hurt yourself rushing to be the first "me, too" poster.

Showing up the umpire is a well known, traditional and sanctioned automatic ejection in MLB. It isn't even reviewed when it occurs. The players know it, the managers know it, even idiot announcers know it.

Apparently most everyone with any baseball knowledge knows it, except maybe for an internet poster or two.

Jimmy zero


You are totally unreal---gotta love your "superior than thou" umpire attitude

where does it say the umpire can show up the player(s)?----it is great how you tap dance around the questions you do not want to or cannot answer

As for your condescending "TWIT" statements--enjoy yourself in your small little world lof "blue"

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where does it say the umpire can show up the player(s)?----it is great how you tap dance around the questions you do not want to or cannot answer

This is my exact point. I'm not even sure whether if the specific call (today in Cleveland) was right or wrong. That's not the point. The point is umpires are "showing up players and managers" and get away with it. And an umpire made contact with a player today as well. If that player were to make contact with the umpire, it'd be an automatic suspension.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Jimmy zero


You are totally unreal---gotta love your "superior than thou" umpire attitude

I'm sorry TWit, no one hear has poted anything intended as being superior. But from your viewpoint I can certainly understand how you perceive knowledge as superior.

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where does it say the umpire can show up the player(s)?

I give...where? Certainly not in any post any umpire has posted here.. Let me know when you find it.

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----it is great how you tap dance around the questions you do not want to or cannot answer

No dancing, TWit. I never answer a hypothetical questions that has no basis in fact. It would be liking anwering, "Where is it written that TWit has to act like an idiot and lump all umpires together and pretend to know a rule that he hasn't the foggiest idea about."

The only possible answer is "Lord only knows".

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As for your condescending "TWIT" statements--enjoy yourself in your small little world lof "blue"

You need to look up the word "condescending".

Oh, and what does lof blue mean?

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

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where does it say the umpire can show up the player(s)?----it is great how you tap dance around the questions you do not want to or cannot answer

This is my exact point. I'm not even sure whether if the specific call (today in Cleveland) was right or wrong. That's not the point. The point is umpires are "showing up players and managers" and get away with it. And an umpire made contact with a player today as well. If that player were to make contact with the umpire, it'd be an automatic suspension.

Please, seeing TWit get his exercise by jumping to conlcusions is enough for one site.

If, in fact, the umpire iniated the contact, he will be disciplined. Despite what you may think, that always leads to discipline of an umpire.

Take a deep breath and stop assuming so much.

I assume you are speaking about the altercation the other dsy where the pitcher yelled at the umpire, walked off the mound toward and the umpire came out and shut him down. How the hell is that showing up the player? The pitcher had to be restrained by his teammates to keep him in the game.
Perhaps you would be speaking about the TB game where the batter turned and went at the umpire complaining about the pitch. He knows as a professional that that is an auto ejection and when the manager went out he knew he was getting tossed. YOU CAN NOT ARGUE BALLS AND STRIKES, it is against the RULES.

Been both a coach and an umpire. Depending on which hat I am wearing that day they other guy is a know nothing blowhard.

To be serious it seems to me at least in MLB there is not enough respect for either camp for the other. About the only thing IMO that can be said as a fact is everyone is doing their absolute best to get it right because with all the video noone can hide from the screw ups.

Joe West
http://florida.marlins.mlb.com...p?content_id=8366649

Kulpa
http://florida.marlins.mlb.com...p?content_id=8136439

Marques
http://florida.marlins.mlb.com...p?content_id=7932039

Marques
http://florida.marlins.mlb.com...p?content_id=7916437

Iassogna
http://florida.marlins.mlb.com...p?content_id=7798355

Rapuano
http://florida.marlins.mlb.com...p?content_id=8226363

If players or managers were to do any of the things that these umpires did in these clips, they would be fined or suspended. They need to go back to umpiring the game and leave the egos at home.

Don't even get me started on the awful strike zones...

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
Joe West
http://florida.marlins.mlb.com...p?content_id=8366649

Kulpa
http://florida.marlins.mlb.com...p?content_id=8136439

Marques
http://florida.marlins.mlb.com...p?content_id=7932039

Marques
http://florida.marlins.mlb.com...p?content_id=7916437

Iassogna
http://florida.marlins.mlb.com...p?content_id=7798355

Rapuano
http://florida.marlins.mlb.com...p?content_id=8226363

If players or managers were to do any of the things that these umpires did in these clips, they would be fined or suspended. They need to go back to umpiring the game and leave the egos at home.

Don't even get me started on the awful strike zones...

Much better approach. We might even get an intelligent dialong going now. Specifics are much better than the emotional and, sorry, unthinking approach of "get rig of'em all."

Now, then, I haven't had time to see the West video yet, but what makes you think that Marques was not disciplined. Why do you assume that?

Oh, and anyone without a strong ego would not survive being placed in charge of multi-millionaire players and managers. MLB entrusts the safety, well being and the conduct of all other ML baseball participants to the umpires. You want a wimp to back down everytime a player gets in his face?

I don't think so.

Okay...I saw the West video. Pitcher balks, which is called by two umpires. Pitcher comes off mound and gives West a ration of $hit. West tell;s to shut up if he wants to stay in the game. Ozzie comes out despite being told everything is okay and don't come out. Ozzies accuses West of making up the balk call...Ozzie is gone.

What's the problem? Try watching the video without the idiotic mumblings of the homer announcers. "No way that's a balk," is enough to judge their lack of rule knowledge.

But go ahead, whatch without the sound on. Watch the pitcher mouth off. Watch West warn him. Watch the pitcher mouth off again. Watch West warn Ozzie not to get involved. Watch Ozzie get involved anyway. See Ozzie go. Go Ozzie go.

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Now, then, I haven't had time to see the West video yet, but what makes you think that Marques was not disciplined. Why do you assume that?

Well seeing as I don't get to watch all 15 games played on a daily basis, I don't see who umpires every single game. If he was suspended, the only way I would know that is if he was supposed to do a game that I would have watched and they mention it. It's not in the news. If a player or manager gets suspended, it's in the news.

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Oh, and anyone without a strong ego would not survive being placed in charge of multi-millionaire players and managers. MLB entrusts the safety, well being and the conduct of all other ML baseball participants to the umpires. You want a wimp to back down everytime a player gets in his face?

If a police officer explodes on somebody and it's caught on film, it is all over the TVs and he is often suspended. I would consider an umpire to fall into that same category. I'm not saying they should "back down" but wagging their finger or making contact should not be allowed.

Today Joe West called a balk on Beuhrle. Pitcher questioned him and he got upset. Wouldn't tell the pitcher why it was a balk. Ozzie comes out and West waves him off as in "go away" and obviously Ozzie didn't like that. Ozzie ejected. I have seen West quoted as saying to Buehrle something along the lines of "You want to do something about it, punk?" No clue as to the truth there of course... Next inning West calls balk again for the same move. Buehrle drops/throws his glove on the mound, West ejects him. Then the 2nd base umpire comes over and won't let Buehrle get anywhere near West and is pulling him away. He, too, should get in trouble in my opinion. Umpire shouldn't be putting his hands on a player unless he is preventing a potential injury (as in a brawl).

We know that Ozzie will get a fine and I think he'll get suspended. After seeing the video and hearing his comments after, he deserves a suspension.

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But go ahead, whatch without the sound on. Watch the pitcher mouth off. Watch West warn him. Watch the pitcher mouth off again. Watch West warn Ozzie not to get involved. Watch Ozzie get involved anyway. See Ozzie go. Go Ozzie go.

Have you watched the umpires mouth off? There's plenty of that too.

As for the initial call, my only problem is that it is not called very often. There have been 3 balks called for that exact move TODAY. I'll bet that move hasn't been called a balk 10 times in 2-3 years at that level.. Otherwise I don't have a complaint about the balk.

Here are some quotes for what it's worth...

Ozzie
"When you tell the manager to get the f--- off the field, I don’t think that’s a good way to handle situations."

Buehrle’s side: “I did the same move the toss right before that and [West] didn’t call a balk on it. I think he’s too worried about promoting his [Country Music] CD and I think he likes seeing his name in the papers a little bit too much instead of worrying about the rules. I’d like to find out what he called a balk on me. Your knee can cross over the rubber. I know your foot can’t and I didn’t do that. I watched the replays trying to see what it was called a balk and I have still yet to see what I did.’’

Those are from the Chicago Sun-Times

"I shrugged my shoulders and wasn't trying to show him up by throwing my glove," Buehrle said. "But once I got tossed, I was going to go say a few words and try to get my money's worth, just kind of find out what did I do wrong to balk. I did the same move the toss right before that, and he didn't call a balk."

From the Chicago White Sox website

Yeah I looked at the videos you linked to and your argument is weak.

They prove nothing.
I didn't see where the balk was in the first one but even if the umpire is wrong, you can't come out and act like an azz.

In the second video Bobby Cox was 100% wrong and deserved to get tossed.

The third video shows an argument over balls and strikes which the umpire got right, Justified ejection.

The fourth is a runner out at first which the umpire got right and the runner threw a fit. Another justified ejection.

The fifth was another case of arguing balls and strikes. (notice the pulled glove). Correct call by umpire and he has to deal with idiots.

The sixth was a definite correct call of ball by umpire an the spoiled brat pitcher throws a fit.

As I said in an earlier post, we don't have to take this C R A P.

I hope you are not influenced by the idoiot announcers.

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As I said in an earlier post, we don't have to take this C R A P.

I hope you are not influenced by the idoiot announcers.

And we shouldn't have to take the C R A P of watching these umpires. But apparently to you, their actions are all justified.

A catcher knows he is not supposed to turn around to talk to the umpire. In return, the umpire is not supposed to come to the front to talk to the catcher. He is especially not supposed to be wagging his finger in the catcher's face.

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

And we shouldn't have to take the C R A P of watching these umpires. But apparently to you, their actions are all justified.

A catcher knows he is not supposed to turn around to talk to the umpire. In return, the umpire is not supposed to come to the front to talk to the catcher. He is especially not supposed to be wagging his finger in the catcher's face.

Again, take a breath, relax. Marques indeed, in my opinion, crossed the line with the finger wagging. I have no doubt he will be disciplined.

Now, ozzie is complaining about an umpire saying get the F off the field? What? Is this his first year in the majors? This is not LL, HS or college. Players and umpires have talked like that since before the 40's. There's no issue with either of them talking to each other like that in the majores unless and until the F is personally addressed as in F you. I've had MiLB mangagers, former players all, start conversation with "what the F did you see?" No problem. Ozzie is being a cry baby. Ozzie was given fair warning and decided to get ejected. That simple.

All of your sources are White Sox sources or player and managers who just got tossed. Not really the best source. Heck, even golden boy Jeter got caught lying about what an umpire told him last year. I don't pay much attention to what an ejected player who is about to appeal an ejection says.

These are big boys and they are acting like virgins. This is major league baseball. They should stop whining and start playing and managing.

Again, I agree with on Marques, but Joe's ejections were righteous.

Thanks for the diaglog. This is a heck of lot better than "F them all", whether one is talking about players or umpires.

Obviously you've never had to umpire spoiled brats day after day. These umpires are only human. They are authority figures but that doesn't mean much in this era of spoiled brat players and idiot coaches.

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Again, I agree with on Marques, but Joe's ejections were righteous.

I'm not completely disagreeing with the calls nor with the ejections. But the waving of the hand I think is wrong. And the way he stood there while another umpire restrained the player from talking to him is wrong IMO.


All I ask is that the umpires respect the players and managers and that the players and managers respect the umpires. It really isn't that difficult to do..

And we can actually get things accomplished without name-calling

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

quote:

Again, I agree with on Marques, but Joe's ejections were righteous.

I'm not completely disagreeing with the calls nor with the ejections. But the waving of the hand I think is wrong. And the way he stood there while another umpire restrained the player from talking to him is wrong IMO.

Marques hand and finger waving was over the line. Joe's was within accepted practice to warn a player or manager.

And I appreciate the civlity with which you have discussed this.

Buerhle's comment about West wanting to promote his CD is stupid but how about West (post Red Sox/Yankee quote about slowness of play)?

"[That] is what's kind of disheartening, this is one of the fastest working pitchers in the world, we're not trying to get him out of the game," West said. "As soon as I kicked him out of the game, I was thinking, 'This is great, now how long is this game going to take?'

quote:

Originally posted by HawksCoach:
Buerhle's comment about West wanting to promote his CD is stupid but how about West (post Red Sox/Yankee quote about slowness of play)?

"[That] is what's kind of disheartening, this is one of the fastest working pitchers in the world, we're not trying to get him out of the game," West said. "As soon as I kicked him out of the game, I was thinking, 'This is great, now how long is this game going to take?'

All umpires are like that. It's normal. There is nothing like a well-played two-hour game game (9 innings).

Compare that to a 3+ hour marathon of pickoff throws trying to nail a runner with a two-foot lead, maximum conferences, batters taking 15 seconds to get signs from a 3B coach who looks like he's landing planes on a carrier - all with no one on, 2 outs and an 0-2 count, pitchers working ponderously slow, etc. In those games, we secretly root for the home team to get out of there half an inning early.

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Compare that to a 3+ hour marathon of pickoff throws trying to nail a runner with a two-foot lead, maximum conferences, batters taking 15 seconds to get signs from a 3B coach who looks like he's landing planes on a carrier - all with no one on, 2 outs and an 0-2 count, pitchers working ponderously slow, etc. In those games, we secretly root for the home team to get out of there half an inning early.

Have you seen what the SEC is doing in their tournament this weekend?

This article is aprpos of this discussion

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s...ccountability-052610

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Let me be clear: I have great respect for umpires. They have extremely demanding jobs. I'm not arguing that they need to be disciplined more. I just happen to think they should be disciplined publicly, in the same way that managers and players are.

I think it's hard for us to know whether they should be disciplined more until they are disciplined publicly. But I would agree with what he says here...

I disagree with a public discipline. The reason is b/c the umpire will lose authority on the field. Every manager/player/fan/announcer will be saying things like "Remember what that cost you last time" or they will be trying very hard to force the umpire to do it again. Also, it will be one more tactic they will use to push the umpire and hope he won't push back to avoid public humiliation.

Umpires can't and shouldn't brush it off like the managers/players do. Who is the authority and who are the ones having to be looked after?

I don't agree with some of the umpires' approaches but look at the level of mentality they are dealing with and the spotlight they are under.

And, yes, people to pay to see the umpires when it comes to this kind of stuff. Some go to the game to see the umpires and watch them work. I don't but have seen so many posts on other sites of people doing it.

People want to see a good game and a good altercation which is why they cheer when it happens. A quiet ejection goes unnoticed. If the managers would just go on instead of coming out onto the field after being ejected, very little would come of it.

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Umpires can't and shouldn't brush it off like the managers/players do. Who is the authority and who are the ones having to be looked after?

The authority is Major League Baseball. Those needing looked after are EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON THE FIELD. Umpires, players, managers, EVERYONE

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

quote:

Umpires can't and shouldn't brush it off like the managers/players do. Who is the authority and who are the ones having to be looked after?

The authority is Major League Baseball. Those needing looked after are EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON THE FIELD. Umpires, players, managers, EVERYONE

That is absolutely wrong when it comes to the ones on the field.

MLB handles things off the field such as fines/suspension and negotiations with the umpire union. The umpires handle things on the field. No one else does. The authority on the field is the umpires.

You don't see Bud Selig or any others out there during the game. Do you?

My issues with umpires (MLB, and as a parent of a HS player)have very little to do with the other side of the "95%" being claimed as correct calls. Here are the things that get under my skin:

1. Blatant inconsistency. My son pitches and hits. Inconsistency in the strike zone is completely unfair to the pitcher and hitter. You just can't move the strike zone around. It is also unfair to adjust the zone to the situation of the game...as often happens.

2. Umpire provocation. The game isn't about the umpire. Initiating an argument, escalating an argument, moving toward a player/coach, etc., are childish and immature.

3. MLB strikezone. It is ridiculous. Goes from about 2 inches above the knee to about 2 inches above the belt. Call a freakin' strike. You getting paid by the hour, or what? Best way to shorten MLB games? Call the strikezone as outlined in the rulebook. Easy. Done. Simple.

I can't imagine how difficult being an umpire is -- but I will say this: I respect the job. As long as you are consistent and let the game be the show you'll never have a problem with me.

Funny how no one ever sees the ones(players/coaches) who start most arguments as being the problem.

1. No camera angle in the world will show what the umpire sees. Nice to call pitches from behind a TV screen or a fence. Fans can really see a lot from that vantage point. I love the "blatant" accusation of cheating or being manipulated.

2. The game is about every participant, including umpires. The saying "A good umpire goes unnoticed" is a crock perpetuated by bad umpires, media, or clueless fans. Oh, but the players/coaches are the well-behaved ones in every argument. They never approach the umpire first.

3. Don't believe the K-zone. Again, they don't have the same view and are as accurate as their human designers.

The game is the show and how all participants contribute to it, including the umpires. It is about all of them.

it is interesting to watch the reaction of parents who have their kids at bat or pitching...especially when they are 100 feet to the side. Not that there aren't some really bad calls, and inconsistencies. After 15 years of watching my kids, I've really mellowed. Not much use in blaming it on someone else, for every bad call someone says good call. Like they say in MMA -You really never want to go to the scorecard.

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Originally posted by brookspw:
As long as you are consistent and let the game be the show you'll never have a problem with me.

"Be consistent" aacording to whose view of consistency? Their's? Your's? Someone else's?

I know that for every call I make, there are coaches, players and fans who do not see what I see. They can't, they aren't standing where I am standing and most likely haven't been to pro school and don't even look for what I look for.

What keeps the game the show? When skipper comes out and says "You're a F@#$ing idiot" or "That's two you owe me A$$hole" does the umpire have to turn and meekly walk away to keep from being part of the show?

I've seen this on another site but avoided repeating fit because it's a crass generalization. But since crass generalizations seem to be common in this thread...When coaches and players stop lying and cheating, you won't need umpires.

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Funny how no one ever sees the ones(players/coaches) who start most arguments as being the problem.

Gee I think this whole thread started due to A) Bad call by an umpire? Whether by the rule it was a balk or not, it was inconsistent as to whether it was a balk in back-to-back attempts!

B) Umpires sticking their heads into the dugout bringing on a confrontation.

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3. Don't believe the K-zone. Again, they don't have the same view and are as accurate as their human designers.

I don't believe the K-zone or Fox-Trax or whatever else they want to call it. I don't believe how accurate or inaccurate they are.


I will say, though, there is something wrong with the strike zone. Not sure what and I wish I did. But there is something not right...

ESPN reporting Joe West, Mark Buehrle, and Ozzie Guillen all fined after incidents the other day. I am surprised that Ozzie wasn't suspended..

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

Gee I think this whole thread started due to A) Bad call by an umpire? Whether by the rule it was a balk or not, it was inconsistent as to whether it was a balk in back-to-back attempts!

Why was it a bad call? Do you know what the two umpires simultaneously saw when they made the call?

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B) Umpires sticking their heads into the dugout bringing on a confrontation.

Joe was practicing an old and accepted technique to quiet down someone and keep from having to eject him. He strolled over and picked up a piece of garbage from the field and gave his warning calmly when within hearing range rather than shout and point from the field. I'm amazed anyone is complaining about that.

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I will say, though, there is something wrong with the strike zone. Not sure what and I wish I did. But there is something not right...

A few years back the umpires were ordered to call the rule book high strike. Within three weeks the players union and management bitched so loud, that, very quietly, the word went out to bring the high strike down.

One always needs to remember that it is the players' association, owners and management who ultimately make the rules and policy.

At the beginning of the year MLB ordered umpires to follow all timing rules and policies to speed up the game, including all pitching regulations. When they did, or even talked about it, the noise from the players and managers was deafening.

I enjoyed the disparity of the post game comments. Joe said he respected both the pitcher and Ozzie and knew that everyone would get past this.

The pitcher went off on how Joe is more concerned with his CD sales than knowing the rules, and Ozzie dropped F bomb after F bomb after calling Joe fat.

Class, pure class.

[/QUOTE]
When skipper comes out and says "You're a F@#$ing idiot" or "That's two you owe me A$$hole" does the umpire have to turn and meekly walk away to keep from being part of the show?
[/QUOTE]

No, he does not have to meekly walk away. Why can't he very calmly say "leave the game, now" and go back about his business. As soon as umpires get hot, start yelling and turn up the heat, they have become part of the problem instead of the solution. It is not easy. Cops don't get to yell at the ***holes they must deal with, nor do judges or priests. It is the nature of the job. If you are a hot head, maybe you should try another profession. The managers and players are absolutely wrong, but so are the umpires when they join the fray....

Dave