To Gain MPH

work on mechanics, lift weights, long toss...there is no one way to add velocity. but to take stress off the arm, you MUST have proper conditioning and good mechanics.

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What would be the best route for my son that is going to be a senior next year to gain several MPH on his fast ball.

There are more variables then you can shake a stick at...video?

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Originally posted by scatpac:
What would be the best route for my son that is going to be a senior next year to gain several MPH on his fast ball. There is a lot of knowledge out there from dads and players that were in the same place my son is in now. What is the best program that is a proven winner with out stressing the arm.

Forget any program that focuses on arm action.

Instead, the key to throwing hard is learning to throw with the entire body and not just the arm.

Tim Lincecum is a great example of this...



Notice how his hips are open (belt buckle pointing at the target) while his shoulders are still closed (facing 3B). This stretches the muscle of the core, which will enable them to powerfully pull his shoulders around.

That's why such a (relatively) small guy is still able to throw so hard.

This implies that, while conditioning the shoulder is important (which is different than just doing a lot of max-effort bench presses), it's more important to develop the muscles of the core.

Please --I ask again--let the people who know what they are talking about give out advice--- you are not one of them !!!!!

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Originally posted by TRhit:
Please --I ask again--let the people who know what they are talking about give out advice--- you are not one of them !!!!!

Core development is not important? Core development and conditioning is important to a pitcher. Maintaining effective velocity as long as possible is important and directly linked to conditioning, the core being part of a conditioning program.

Gotta agree with TPG and Dad04 on this one.

Posted by TR:
Please --I ask again--let the people who know what they are talking about give out advice--- you are not one of them !!!!!

TR, no offense, but since when did you become judge and jury. Not that I agree 100% with everything TPG says, but then again not sure I agree 100% with everything anybody says.

frank

Sorry you feel that way--but the man is suspect in my eyes ---I am not a judge and jury--I am expressing my opinion---the man dispenses info with all the little words like "I think", "I read", "this implies"----he is in his own little world ---typical cyperspace guru !!!

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Originally posted by TRhit:
Please --I ask again--let the people who know what they are talking about give out advice--- you are not one of them !!!!!

Rather than attacking me personally, please explain exactly which of my ideas you have a problem with and why.

Oh, and the whole "cyberspace guru" or "cyberspace cowboy" line is really played.

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my ideas

????

PAIN this is the problem.

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Originally posted by thepainguy:
Forget any program that focuses on arm action.

Instead, the key to throwing hard is learning to throw with the entire body and not just the arm.

UNBELIEVABLY BAD ADVICE...

...that doesn't get moderated by the one who really knows this stuff.

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Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:

quote:

my ideas

???? PAIN this is the problem.

Which ideas are you suggesting I have stolen and from whom?

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Originally posted by Chameleon:
UNBELIEVABLY BAD ADVICE...

...that doesn't get moderated by the one who really knows this stuff.

Please explain exactly why this is such bad advice.

Are you suggesting that hip/shoulder separation is inconsequential? If so, then why do you see it in pretty much every ML pitcher?

For example...





















I have collected hundreds of examples like these...

- Hips Rotating Before Shoulders

One reason it is bad advice is that arm action is part of good pitching and your statement makes no sense.

We are all talking ideas that we have acquired from someone else. I listen and I learned.
You have no ideas that you have not picked up from others but you try to lay claim to them.
The ASMI has debunked your theories. Thsi is a case of garbage in garbage out.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
One reason it is bad advice is that arm action is part of good pitching...

There's no question that arm action is important. However, it's not the only thing that matters.

You also have to have the correct arm action (e.g. no Inverted W).

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
...and your statement makes no sense.

What exactly doesn't make sense?

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
You have no ideas that you have not picked up from others but you try to lay claim to them.

The idea that the Inverted W (or "M") is dangerous is mine alone. Everyone else is either neutral to positive about the Inverted W (or "M").

I'm glad to see that Will Carroll and Dick Mills are staring to see things my way (even if they don't credit me with the idea).

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
The ASMI has debunked your theories. Thsi is a case of garbage in garbage out.

Please give me a specific example.

Are you saying that ASMI thinks that hip/shoulder separation is inconsequential?

Her you are posting pretty pictures again trying to prove your theories. The fact that these guys throw the way they do shows the methodoligy existed before you did.
What doesn't make sense is that no P coach emphasises arm action except as a part of the total motion.

Not going to spoon feed you. Try reading their research.
I suppose you invented the separation of shoulder and hips ?
You are not talking to 10yo here.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I suppose you invented the separation of shoulder and hips? You are not talking to 10yo here.

I never said I invented the concept. I picked it up from Tom House.

All I'm doing is advocating it.

Theres a cocept. Maybe this young man should listen to Tom House.

"I have collected hundreds of examples like this"

Anyone can collect examples !!!!!


That says it all---you have no depth other than the books you read and the sites you visit---I know the limitations of my pitching mechanics knowledge --that is why we have two pitching coaches---they have pitched at the pro level and high college levels--they don't use examples and pictures from cyberspace

TR I think Pain is looking for a P coach job. Oh I forgot he is a scout/advisor he went straight to Management. Forget worring about the learning process right to the top.

Chris,

It is my belief that the closer this seperation takes place the more arm speed the pitcher has. Thus the more velocity!

In regards to the hip/shoulder seperation... Is it possible to throw a baseball without any? Does anyone throw without first opening up their hips?

I like Nolan Ryan's picture the best. It shows the belt buckle pointing to a different spot than most of the other photos and it is NOT home plate! All the photos show pitchers that have already landed. Once you land (some would say as you land) the hips must open or you would be locked up and off balance. Personally, I prefer keeping that belly button pointed to the side as long as possible, but AFTER landing it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE!

That is the problem with still photos vs video! Unless you have the sequential shots. JMO

tpg

quote:

You also have to have the correct arm action (e.g. no Inverted W).

Chris, I dont think you know what arm action is. It is not defined by wether someone M-scaps or not. John Smoltz has a terrific arm action and he M-scap loads. Greg Maddux has terrific arm action and he does not M-scap load.

PGstaff

quote:

It is my belief that the closer this seperation takes place the more arm speed the pitcher has. Thus the more velocity!

Staff, I think I agree with this but Im not 100% sure I follow. Can you elaborate on "the closer this seperation takes place?" Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
It is my belief that the closer this seperation takes place the more arm speed the pitcher has. Thus the more velocity!

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
In regards to the hip/shoulder seperation... Is it possible to throw a baseball without any?

Yes, but not hard.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Does anyone throw without first opening up their hips?

Certainly at the youth level. Not at the ML level.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I like Nolan Ryan's picture the best. It shows the belt buckle pointing to a different spot than most of the other photos and it is NOT home plate! All the photos show pitchers that have already landed.

This is exactly the point. Ryan's hips aren't all the way open yet because his foot has not yet landed. He achieves a differential approaching 90 degrees once his GS foot plants. I think that helps to explain why he threw so hard.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Once you land (some would say as you land) the hips must open or you would be locked up and off balance.

I agree.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Personally, I prefer keeping that belly button pointed to the side as long as possible, but AFTER landing it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE!

I would say that it IS impossible. Dick Mills gets this wrong.

Do you know how lost you are?

You are so lost that TR and I are on the same side.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
Do you know how lost you are? You are so lost that TR and I are on the same side.

So you're saying there's no value in hip/shoulder separation?

Please...

Chris

Chameleon's post has to tell you something !!!!

Again, you exhibit that you simply don’t have enough experience throwing off a mound or teaching someone how to throw hard off a mound.

quote:

Forget any program that focuses on arm action.

This is an absurd statement to make. Arm action is very important to the overall efficiency of high velocity ballistic movement performed by the arm.

Arm action is one part of the total package, but the one that should be started with first. Once the efficiency of the arm action is established with the upper torso loading, then the rest of the torso can be adjusted to support that desired arm action.………………not an absolute, but the best way to get the desired results quicker.

There is so much more than to having good separation and/or having your hand passing its apex height at foot plant, you just don’t understand it….yet. Timing is a major factor. Tempo is a major factor. Knowing the purpose of loading to unload, and an efficient way of loading to unload are major factors. Then being able to recognize and teach an efficient tempo matched with the timing of loading to unload is another factor.

In other words, your statement to disregard any program that focuses on arm action puts all throwers at risk of arm/shoulder damage because you assume that as long as the arm and hand is up at solid foot plant, why worry about how it got there. Scap load, no scap load. Inverted M or inverted W. High elbows, low elbows. Circle up or throw with the elbows. Load now, and unload later…….or load to unload now. Throw with high velocity or throw slowly.

tpg

Need a napkin?

quote:

Originally posted by cap_n:

quote:

Forget any program that focuses on arm action.

This is an absurd statement to make. Arm action is very important to the overall efficiency of high velocity ballistic movement performed by the arm.

I'm not saying that arm action isn't relevant. It is. But it isn't all or even most of the deal when it comes to a high-level throw.

In a high-level throw, the vast majority (e.g. 80%) of a pitcher's power is generated by the core and the majority of the remainder is generated by the stride. The arm is important because it funnels the force to the hand and thus the ball.

However, the job of the arm is to FUNNEL the force rather than GENERATE the force.

As a result, IMO a good pitching program FOCUSES on the stride and the torso/core. Arm action has to be addressed, but it's a secondary consideration.

To use an analogy, the muscles of a pitcher's core are the equivalent of the engine in a race car, the shoulder is the equivalent of the transmission, the arm is the equivalent of the suspension, and the hand is the equivalent of the tires. All are important, but if your engine isn't any good, then it doesn't matter how good your transmission, suspension, and tires are.

quote:

Originally posted by cap_n:
Arm action is one part of the total package, but the one that should be started with first. Once the efficiency of the arm action is established with the upper torso loading, then the rest of the torso can be adjusted to support that desired arm action.………………not an absolute, but the best way to get the desired results quicker.

If arm action is so critical, then why is there so much variation in it? Why isn't there nearly as much variation in terms of hip/shoulder separation?

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
If you add an ounce of liquor to your knowledge you might fill a shot glass.

You refuse to answer my questions and obviously have nothing to contribute to this forum other than personal attacks.

I think it's kind of pathetic that the moderators refuse to muzzle you.

It detracts from the conversation.

tpg

quote:

If arm action is so critical, then why is there so much variation in it?

If arm action is not critical in your opinion, then why harp that the "M" is a part of bad arm action (which its not).

tpg

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Why isn't there nearly as much variation in terms of hip/shoulder separation?

Think about this Chris... How can you have much variation of the hips clearing before shoulders (vs. arm actions). They either clear first or they dont. Now compare this with the possible variations in how a pitchers arm works.

I find contradictions in your statements.

BobbleheadDoll, why come on here talking so much ****? TPG's advice makes sense to me...I have always been taught to use my hips and torso. He has the same right to voice his opinion and theories (or even someone else's theories, I still haven't seen him claim one) as you do. The only difference between you two is that he is giving advice and trying to help, you are just bashing other members. I don't care how long you've been on this sight or how short I've been here, you and everyone else who bashes tpg make this forum VERY unpleasurable for me.

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quote:

You may not be a 10 year old, but a man doesn't hide behind a computer screen to talk ****.

moderate this. delete it. i don't care...there is no reason to bash people.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
If you add an ounce of liquor to your knowledge you might fill a shot glass.

You refuse to answer my questions and obviously have nothing to contribute to this forum other than personal attacks.

I think it's kind of pathetic that the moderators refuse to muzzle you.

It's 100 times more pathetic that the moderators don't muzzle you.

YOUR ADVISE IS HURTING KIDS.

It detracts from the conversation.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
If you add an ounce of liquor to your knowledge you might fill a shot glass.

You refuse to answer my questions and obviously have nothing to contribute to this forum other than personal attacks.

I think it's kind of pathetic that the moderators refuse to muzzle you.

It detracts from the conversation.

It's 100 times more pathetic that the moderators don't muzzle you.

YOUR ADVISE IS HURTING KIDS.

What I really wish is that people could post differing opinions and the thread continue forward. However, as soon as someone states something that many of you disagree with, the whole thread gets taken over by this kind of stupidity. Why not let TPG say what he wants and you say what your theories are? I don't think for one moment that you are all that concerned for the "poor little boys" who may be reading this thread and who will hurt themselves because of TPG's advice. For the love God...

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
YOUR ADVISE IS HURTING KIDS.

First, all you are doing is filling up threads with personal attacks.

Second, how exactly am I hurting kids? By teaching them to throw like Greg Maddux?

Third, it's "advice" not "advise". You advise someone by giving them advice. It's a small and subtle, but important, difference.

Chameleon, my last post does towards you, too. You are pathetic. And also worthless to this topic.

Do you have your own theory? Do you personally know how to add velocity?

Or are you just some LOSER who never made it any where?

I think it's the latter.