Is it better for a young pitcher (16) to throw long toss and bullpens between now and January (we live in Florida - our season starts a bit early)or rest the arm?
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Have you given your arm some time to rest? As I've often posted, we take a couple of months off and then get back at it. It is important, in my opinion, to take that brief break.
We have done the exact opposite. 3 weeks at Xmas and back at it 3 times a week. LT and bull pen 3 times a week all winter starting in Nov. I believe a well conditioned athlete recovers in a few days max. In the season 4 days rest and a light bull pen inbetween. LT and more LT.
BobbleHead- How difficult is it for you to find LT time/space? Come December, January, you can't throw more than 90 ft. indoors and you can't move through the snow outdoors in NY. I don't know where you are in Canada but my American stereotypical mind tells me you go through probably the same thing
Strongly recommend some downtime to let the arm recover.
JH we practiced in a dome with 2 s****r fields end to end all winter. Our team booked it all winter 3 times a week. We even had MLB scouts that come to watch. Had 3 mounds and the dome was made with navy blue back drop to allow us to see the ball better.Thye top is white and sides navy. More than enough room. They also play indoor football (league play)
JH we are 12 miles from Niagara Falls NY. Our weather is considerably better than Buffalo.
I have shut down all throwing for my son (2 month duration) - he is curently working out in the weight room and doing some cage work. Will start with some light thwoing in early November working up to first practice in late January. He was on a baseball field at least 160 times thus year either in practice or games. As a catcher he throws more then anyone on the team.
Billy answered this question a long time ago:
To throw, or not to throw: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous overuse,
Or to take arms against a sea of lunatic coaches,
And by opposing end them? To blow out an elbow: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To blow out an elbow, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
You go Billy - you go!
To throw, or not to throw: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous overuse,
Or to take arms against a sea of lunatic coaches,
And by opposing end them? To blow out an elbow: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To blow out an elbow, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
You go Billy - you go!
Nice, its.
In my opinion you need to rest the throwing motion. Take a couple of months off from throwing and spend your time working on core strength, Tubing exercises , med balls , proper weight training and lots of running. Kids come back even stronger and gain velocity.
quote:Originally posted by Coach May:
In my opinion you need to rest the throwing motion. Take a couple of months off from throwing and spend your time working on core strength, Tubing exercises , med balls , proper weight training and lots of running. Kids come back even stronger and gain velocity.
Shakespeare was smart IMO - but Coach May has him beat.
quote:Shakespeare was smart IMO - but Coach May has him beat.
What team did this guy Shakespear play for? Did he have arm trouble??
He played for the NY Mets.
Had some finger problems later in his career - "Writers Cramp" - but his arm was cool.
Ya Gotta Believe!!!
Had some finger problems later in his career - "Writers Cramp" - but his arm was cool.
Ya Gotta Believe!!!
Let me see >
You guys are working on weights, bands etc and learning poetry. Is this resting your arm ?
I just fail to see the difference in terms of resting your arm. Using the muscles is using the muscles.
You guys are working on weights, bands etc and learning poetry. Is this resting your arm ?
I just fail to see the difference in terms of resting your arm. Using the muscles is using the muscles.
Rest, my Canadian buddy..go shoot some moose or elk,go snowmobile'n.Give you MIND as well as your arm a break!That way you will come back with some FIRE!!quote:Originally posted by Coach May:
In my opinion you need to rest the throwing motion. Take a couple of months off from throwing and spend your time working on core strength, Tubing exercises , med balls , proper weight training and lots of running. Kids come back even stronger and gain velocity.
Our son takes 2 months off from any throwing motion. He is working out at the gym, doing some strengthening work with the physical therapist he works for, and will start throwing (LT mostly then work towards pitching flat, then mound, etc to full bullpens) later this month.
I believe his MLB club has a recommended throwing program for the off-season ... which he probably modifies to suit his situation ... so he is ready for spring training in Feb/March.
I believe his MLB club has a recommended throwing program for the off-season ... which he probably modifies to suit his situation ... so he is ready for spring training in Feb/March.
3up you are in the wrong part of Canada. No moose, no elk and never been on a snowmobile.
My son works out with guys in the minors and they are right there with him. I wonder if Clemens takes a couple months of? I watched aprogram on him and his schedule was brutal.All of my sons teammates over the years have all gone right from fall showcase into the winter workout. One year at 17U my son did his team workout and went straight to the 18U workout. You guys read too much poetry.
My son works out with guys in the minors and they are right there with him. I wonder if Clemens takes a couple months of? I watched aprogram on him and his schedule was brutal.All of my sons teammates over the years have all gone right from fall showcase into the winter workout. One year at 17U my son did his team workout and went straight to the 18U workout. You guys read too much poetry.
Hunting season started Saturday....have to put off the poetry for awile
quote:Originally posted by shermanreed:
Is it better for a young pitcher (16) to throw long toss and bullpens between now and January (we live in Florida - our season starts a bit early)or rest the arm?
It's better to rest.
That's the only way that significant healing can occur.
REST!!!!!!!!!!!!
I just saw an interview with son's pithing coach. He said a lot depends on each individual player. Most of the older guys have off 4-5 weeks, and are working on conditioning, the younger ones a bull pen once a week and long toss twice a week, mechanics.
But the overall emphasis is generally fall is a time for conditioning.
But the overall emphasis is generally fall is a time for conditioning.
Give yourself a little break.
Work the abbies - work the hammies - make sure you bag a moose or two - and read a little sumthin sumthin too!
Ya Gotta Believe!!!
Work the abbies - work the hammies - make sure you bag a moose or two - and read a little sumthin sumthin too!
Ya Gotta Believe!!!
quote:Ya Gotta Believe!!!
I still believe ITS! Those were some special pics in the Blue Lagoon in MN riding that moose!
Tell Darin Shep wants to talk with him about the future with ZSMG and Major League baseball.
You guys are in like Flynn
peace, Shep
Shep, I'm getting e-mails wondering why you are being allowed to break the "No Advertising in forum posts" rule. Don't you think you're pushing it a bit too far in the past couple of days?
As usual you're right MN-MOM. I shall bow out gracefully for a while, just thought I would check in since I haven't been here in a while.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving with all the trimmings!
Sincerely,
Shep
Have a Happy Thanksgiving with all the trimmings!
Sincerely,
Shep
No need to leave, but you could just ... you know, discuss baseball and stuff. 
Wow! The general consensus on this thread seems to be SHUTDOWN. But the overwhelming feedback in other threads and from college coaches, former pros, and others I have talked to is to continue throwing in the off-season, just take a break from bullpens. All I know is my own son continues to long-toss, even in the winter (indoors) and he has vastly improved compared to his peers.
Maybe I've been over-using my legs all these years, walking everyday. I think I'll shutdown for 2 months, sit on my ARSS and logon to HSBBW.
Maybe I've been over-using my legs all these years, walking everyday. I think I'll shutdown for 2 months, sit on my ARSS and logon to HSBBW.
Bum,
Never shut down your hammies.
Eat alot of pasta and grilled moosemeat.
And never ever log off the HSBBWEB.
Those are the things I find to be most important during the offseason.
Never shut down your hammies.
Eat alot of pasta and grilled moosemeat.
And never ever log off the HSBBWEB.
Those are the things I find to be most important during the offseason.
TPM, got a link to that Sully interview?
quote:Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
I just saw an interview with son's pithing coach. He said a lot depends on each individual player. Most of the older guys have off 4-5 weeks, and are working on conditioning, the younger ones a bull pen once a week and long toss twice a week, mechanics.
But the overall emphasis is generally fall is a time for conditioning.
Late fall acttivities should be determined by the previous spring and summers pitching work load, general arm health and conditioning status and goals for the next baseball season. Working backward from the beginning of the next season, the goal should be sharp, commanding all the pitches, with stamina and arm strength to go 70-80 pitches the first game and 7 innings after that staying around 100 pitches for a starter. How each player does that is determined individually.
If you are learning and/or refining newer pitches, you will need more bullpen time than ussually the older guys with more experience, as TPM says.
Barring recovery of some sort of injury, shutting down completely from now until January is not what I have seen most successful pitchers do. At the very least, guys will throw flat grounds, long toss and condition regularly until teams start to practice in late January in Florida.
southerNo1,
Will send it to you this evening.
Dad04 is correct, most college pitchers do not completely shut down. Lots depends on past work load and pending work load.
Moat important thing, it DEPENDS on the INDIVIDUAL.
Will send it to you this evening.
Dad04 is correct, most college pitchers do not completely shut down. Lots depends on past work load and pending work load.
Moat important thing, it DEPENDS on the INDIVIDUAL.
Its called use it or lose it.
My son always loves winter workouts. he runs throws socializes and when spring comes he is in top shape. Some of his best games are the 1st ones.
Freshman year in college he was one of the few not throwing up in the 100+ degree weather. If his arm feels tired he shuts down for a few days. I am not talking sore but dosen't have the snap. If you are a serious pitcher you have to know your body. I listen to him and so did his coaches over the years. He has pulled himself once or twice when he was finished. I know most people have their well meaning points of view but we have been taught to keep throwing and working out by pros. Our teams use pro workout programs that are handed out along with codes of behaviour etc. If your pitcher is properly conditioned his recovery time should only be a few days.
My son always loves winter workouts. he runs throws socializes and when spring comes he is in top shape. Some of his best games are the 1st ones.
Freshman year in college he was one of the few not throwing up in the 100+ degree weather. If his arm feels tired he shuts down for a few days. I am not talking sore but dosen't have the snap. If you are a serious pitcher you have to know your body. I listen to him and so did his coaches over the years. He has pulled himself once or twice when he was finished. I know most people have their well meaning points of view but we have been taught to keep throwing and working out by pros. Our teams use pro workout programs that are handed out along with codes of behaviour etc. If your pitcher is properly conditioned his recovery time should only be a few days.
Unfotunately I've just had "crash" course in Tommy John injuries.
We all know pitching is an unatural motion that significantly stresses the elbow and shoulder. HS age pitchers and younger typically are not cared for with the expertise of college/pro players and typicaly are not conditoned as well for throwing.
That being said, youth pitchers who throw hard, 80mph or faster are very prone to micro tear injuries of the UCL. There is usualy no pain associated with these micro tears. If a picher lacks flexibilty and/or is over used and/or not in great physical condition it is very likey he will, at the least, suffer micro tears of the UCL.
Without rest these micro tears will lead to, over time, a loss of structural integrity of the ligament.
With adequate rest these micro tears usually heal enough to prevent further injury.
Im not a doctor and I've just repeated what was explained to me by this guy regarding pitching elbows:
Altchek
He said as a rule, youth pitchers should be shut down from any hard throwing for 3 months.
He was quick to add that all pitchers are at risk at any time for a UCL injury, some more then others, but all. It's a very serious consideration and should not be taken lightly. Prevention of the injury through proper mechanics, throwing specific conditioning and overall conditioning combined with adequate rest for the skill level should be a primary concern for all pitchers.
I told him my son pitched games from april thru the end of October every year for the past 4 years. He would not throw for 4-6 weeks then began bullpens twice a week sometime in December straight thru until April.
The guy looked me straight in the eye and said, "Dont worry dad, it may have happened anyway". I felt like I got punched in the gut.
I can tell you pitching dads and you pitchers. Do everything you can to minimize your risk of a serious elbow injury. The very last thing you want is to feel like this dad or his son who will miss his senior HS season and if all goes well, wont be back on the mound until the spring of 2008.
Like most of us here I investigated how to care for my son to the point where I felt he and I knew what we needed to know to keep him healthy. It seemd like we did. We took care of his arm and he never had anything other then typical soreness after pitching. Sure his arm bothered him sometimes but never any pain before, during or after pitching. Then there was that one throw to me early this fall. "Dad, something popped."
We all know pitching is an unatural motion that significantly stresses the elbow and shoulder. HS age pitchers and younger typically are not cared for with the expertise of college/pro players and typicaly are not conditoned as well for throwing.
That being said, youth pitchers who throw hard, 80mph or faster are very prone to micro tear injuries of the UCL. There is usualy no pain associated with these micro tears. If a picher lacks flexibilty and/or is over used and/or not in great physical condition it is very likey he will, at the least, suffer micro tears of the UCL.
Without rest these micro tears will lead to, over time, a loss of structural integrity of the ligament.
With adequate rest these micro tears usually heal enough to prevent further injury.
Im not a doctor and I've just repeated what was explained to me by this guy regarding pitching elbows:
Altchek
He said as a rule, youth pitchers should be shut down from any hard throwing for 3 months.
He was quick to add that all pitchers are at risk at any time for a UCL injury, some more then others, but all. It's a very serious consideration and should not be taken lightly. Prevention of the injury through proper mechanics, throwing specific conditioning and overall conditioning combined with adequate rest for the skill level should be a primary concern for all pitchers.
I told him my son pitched games from april thru the end of October every year for the past 4 years. He would not throw for 4-6 weeks then began bullpens twice a week sometime in December straight thru until April.
The guy looked me straight in the eye and said, "Dont worry dad, it may have happened anyway". I felt like I got punched in the gut.
I can tell you pitching dads and you pitchers. Do everything you can to minimize your risk of a serious elbow injury. The very last thing you want is to feel like this dad or his son who will miss his senior HS season and if all goes well, wont be back on the mound until the spring of 2008.
Like most of us here I investigated how to care for my son to the point where I felt he and I knew what we needed to know to keep him healthy. It seemd like we did. We took care of his arm and he never had anything other then typical soreness after pitching. Sure his arm bothered him sometimes but never any pain before, during or after pitching. Then there was that one throw to me early this fall. "Dad, something popped."
quote:Originally posted by BackDash:
That being said, youth pitchers who throw hard, 80mph or faster are very prone to micro tear injuries of the UCL. There is usualy no pain associated with these micro tears. If a picher lacks flexibilty and/or is over used and/or not in great physical condition it is very likey he will, at the least, suffer micro tears of the UCL.
Without rest these micro tears will lead to, over time, a loss of structural integrity of the ligament.
With adequate rest these micro tears usually heal enough to prevent further injury.
This is exactly what I meant when I talk about it taking time for healing to occur.
When you are talking about damage to ligaments, it can take weeks or months (or even years) for the body to repair this damage. And this damage can occur without the person being aware of it.
That's why year-round baseball is so problematic and you see greater rates of TJ surgery in places like California, Texas, Florida, and Taiwan.
Good post backdash and I agree. My son used to throw all year until he was forced to shut down the fall after his freshman year of college. He broke the index finger of his throwing hand and had pins put in the joint. This stopped his throwing all fall and he couldn’t start back throwing until early his sophomore year. He was amazed at how much better his arm felt after the forced layoff. He said it felt better than it ever had. Based on what that did for him, he continues to shuts down for about two months each year and says it has improved his arm strength. I’m not sure if by him being a catcher and a pitcher put extra stress on the arm and made the shutdown more effective or not, but that’s what worked for him. I used to be an advocate of throwing all year long simply because my son always had done this and he had a strong arm. But he was forced into learning a better way. Wasn’t “use it or lose it” a Dr. Ruth Westheimer slogan? ---
Fungo
Fungo
Backdash, best of luck to yours in his recovery. There but for the grace......
I've been chastised for advocating pitch limits lower than some would prefer and breaks after long seasons of lots of innings. If mixing in a 2 or 3 month break is recommended by ortho guys to heal micro tears in the UCL, I would follow that regimen. If the kid has not gotten that break yet this year, now is a good time.
I've been chastised for advocating pitch limits lower than some would prefer and breaks after long seasons of lots of innings. If mixing in a 2 or 3 month break is recommended by ortho guys to heal micro tears in the UCL, I would follow that regimen. If the kid has not gotten that break yet this year, now is a good time.
My son's doctor is a former pitching coach for the Teaxas Rangers. We have him checked 2 times evrey season. Will that prevent injury ? No. He has had a pulled Ulnar when he was pitching in extreme weather and his arm coolede down. His team went on a scoring rampage. He fely slighty stiff around the elbow. He called the coach out and pulled himself. He was having a great day until he felt the stiffness. 8 Ks in 3 innings and showed great maturity. His doctor examined him and told him to take it easy for a week but no tears etc.
On my son's summer team there was a closer who was not in great shape and had pitched 4 years in NAIA breaking several school records. 92+ FB and he would blow his arm routinely. He was an amazing talent but never gets into 100% shape.
If you are quoting this guy you will notice he said Hard Throwing. Winter workouts do not have a lot of hard throwing. 25-30 pitches in bullpens at mostly 75% depending on how you feel.
Almost all of my son's former teammates are playing college ball and I can only think of 1 that had tommy John. He had it in his soph year at a D1 NCAA school in the south. Performed by doctor Andrews and he is throwing better than he ever did in his senior year.
I have seen lots of guys at MLB camps who sport the tell tale zippers on the arms. One guy from a top D1 NCAA school at a Royals camp had beautiful mechanics. He really stood out. He also had Tommy John. So it can happen to anyone at anytime. This is no longer career ending.
We have been fortunate that we have had great coaching and medical advice.
My son was also a big inning guy 120-140 every season. His 1st year at college was the 1st time he didn't throw a lot of innings and he had a hard time in the summer going mare than 5 innings reagrdless of the brutal workout at college.
On my son's summer team there was a closer who was not in great shape and had pitched 4 years in NAIA breaking several school records. 92+ FB and he would blow his arm routinely. He was an amazing talent but never gets into 100% shape.
If you are quoting this guy you will notice he said Hard Throwing. Winter workouts do not have a lot of hard throwing. 25-30 pitches in bullpens at mostly 75% depending on how you feel.
Almost all of my son's former teammates are playing college ball and I can only think of 1 that had tommy John. He had it in his soph year at a D1 NCAA school in the south. Performed by doctor Andrews and he is throwing better than he ever did in his senior year.
I have seen lots of guys at MLB camps who sport the tell tale zippers on the arms. One guy from a top D1 NCAA school at a Royals camp had beautiful mechanics. He really stood out. He also had Tommy John. So it can happen to anyone at anytime. This is no longer career ending.
We have been fortunate that we have had great coaching and medical advice.
My son was also a big inning guy 120-140 every season. His 1st year at college was the 1st time he didn't throw a lot of innings and he had a hard time in the summer going mare than 5 innings reagrdless of the brutal workout at college.
How old are the pitchers ? ... I would think there is difference between adult and developing bodies and they wouldn't be treated the same.
My son is not a pitcher, but he takes 2 months off throwing each year
My son is not a pitcher, but he takes 2 months off throwing each year
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
If you are quoting this guy you will notice he said Hard Throwing. Winter workouts do not have a lot of hard throwing. 25-30 pitches in bullpens at mostly 75% depending on how you feel.
Yes I was quoting him and he was speaking to my sons age group. What you say above, 75%, may be fine. Granted he said "hard throwing" a pretty general term. the question is:
Is 25-30 pitches at mostly 75% off max backing off enough to let the arm heal?
The most important point I was making is to be as sure as possible with regards to arm health. I for one will never again assume anything regarding my sons arm.
How much rest my kid will need going forward will depend on many variables. I'll err on the side of caution. His future rest time throwing will only be just above a conversational catch.
Dad04, Thanks for the well wishes!