To throw or not to throw

quote:

Originally posted by njbb:
How old are the pitchers ? ... I would think there is difference between adult and developing bodies and they wouldn't be treated the same.
My son is not a pitcher, but he takes 2 months off throwing each year

Probably a good idea. Has your son had any arm problems? Three pitchers on son's college team, including him, threw over 100 innings in the spring. None played summer college ball. One was drafted and played short season pro ball, but only threw about 20 innings. He had asked for a summer assignment prior to turning pro. The school coaches explained his arm needed time to recover from the spring.

After fall instructs the coaches told all the players (not just pitchers) to shut down (no lifting, no throwing, ok to do cardio) for 3-4 weeks. They can start again next week which will give them more than enough time to get ready for spring training.

I'd like to think they know a little about what they are doing.

How old is your son and what level is the progam at ? Is the team run well as far as conditioning ?
We were very aware of arm issues at an early age and were constantly on my son about it. He was told that we had to know at the earliest possible any signs of stiffness or pain.
We met this doctor through a corporate lawyer whos son played on my son's AAA city team. Several MLB players would stay at this mans house/mansion while in town to do business with the doctor. Several big names including Nolan Ryan and Tom House. They hooked up when the doctors coached at Texas. He has contributed to their books so this guy knows his stuff. Getting checkups and advice has been a part of our routine for atleat 5-6 years.
We also live in a city that had a minor league team for several years and we were involved with them as well. Training camps etc. They always promoted throwing and more throwing. The unatural motion becomes even more unnatural after a long layoff.
Our programs that we were involved in were top notch and worked out all winter inside domes. 3-4 hr workouts 3 time a week. Of all the pitchers I know that have been through their systems I can only think of a couple that have arm problems. We were taught proper mechanics and pitcher specific conditioning by pros at an early age.
I also feel that your arm should never be sore. Tired is one thing but never sore.
I watched some kids last summer who were not very well trained throw against a radar gun. Everyone after several throws walked away holding their elbows, shoulders and forearms. It was interesting how swift the pain started and where it was depending on how these young untrained kids threw. There has to be some significanrt conclusions that could be arrived at watching these young kids.
Proper mechanics and conditionnig is the key to avoiding injury. Lots of kids learning improper technique from people who thing they know how to pitch. Emphasis on velo is a mgor contibutor as well in the younger years.

My son would get a sore arm while he was in high school, during his first rookie season he was taught the correct way to throw a ball (can you believe it) has not had a sore arm since. He feels its important for him to stop throwing for 2 months. He is lifting but did not work his legs for a two weeks he felt they also need a rest

Sore does not equal pain and hurt does not equal injured.
But if your injured its probably gonna hurt.

Pretty typical for pitchers at all levels to have some degree of soreness after an outing.

I have seen 3 off season conditioning programs from major league clubs. Each includes an instruction for down time on throwing. Our son's is the same as njbb's, no throwing for 60 days.
I have been doing a fair amount of reading on shoulders/throwing/baseball this winter. Nearly every medical article mentions that throwing a baseball is a very unnatural motion for the shoulder and the shoulder structure.
If MLB teams shut down their players for a period after the season, severely restrict innings for pitchers after the draft, and doctors talk about how "unnatural" the motion is, it seems prudent that baseball players, especially at younger ages where joints are still in development, should be treated more cautiously, not less. JMO.

when I say sore he did not have pain but his arm was dead... could not lift arm

If your son went to college did he tell the coach when he got their that he had to take a few weeks off before he started throwing. Maybe his coach said you just finished your senior HS ball and travel ball so you can take a break. I don't think so.

Not sure what that post means.
When our son went to college, he showed up in top shape and ready to compete in Fall ball. When Fall ball ended around the end of October, he then lifted and ran, lifted and ran, lifted and ran for about 30 days. Took tons of ground balls and hit BP. No throwing for that 30 days. Did that each year he was in college. Started throwing again around 12/15, started college practice around 1/15 of each year, and ended his summer wood bat league in August.
Same thing in minor league ball. There has always been a period of about 45-60 days where he weight trains/runs and does not throw, all per the instruction of the college coach or his major league team.
I hear you advocating throwing year round. I disagree with that approach, and the difference in opinion increases as the player gets younger.

a trainer at the University of Nebraska told me about a report that showed that approximately 70% of position players in MLB are from south of the mason-dixon line and 70% of pitchers are from north of the mason-dixon. The theory is that the pitchers in the north don't have as high of a risk of overuse injuries and overtraining due to weather.

I feel that 2 months a year without throwing is a great idea.

I work with athletes from several universities, and I am finding that the pitchers that are able to let their arms rest over the winter, while they concentrate on leg and core work, have a lot less risk for impingement syndrome and labrum tears. BUT, if you do take time off, you must work back into it slowly. I have also found that ramping back up to 100% too quickly can lead to ulnar collateral ligament damage.

There are exceptions to every rule, but I would do everything in my ability to keep the odds in my favor.

quote:

Originally posted by spinedoc:
I would do everything in my ability to keep the odds in my favor.

Ya nailed it spinedoc!

Control what you can

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
If your son went to college did he tell the coach when he got their that he had to take a few weeks off before he started throwing. Maybe his coach said you just finished your senior HS ball and travel ball so you can take a break. I don't think so.

When son first came to college he had a lighter load that summer, on purpose, so he could work in fall instruction and practice.
Gave up pitching on the cape, following summer,because he had put in 70+ innings and if he pitched in the summer would not be able to partake in fall instruction and practice on a larger scale.
Between last season and this summer his innings were close to 100. Rest when he returned, long toss, bullpens for a month, limited pitching time in practices and now off for quite a few weeks.
Baseball players are considered investments for schools and pro teams, and investments have to be protected.
As a parent, one who invests in their players future, should protect it as such.

My son's pitching coach told me once that he beleives that pitchers should continue throwing on a limited basis off season(LT), however, after significant work loads, rest is best. It depends on the individual.

What you advocate (to use Infielddad's words) is not with what I agree with either.
Philosophies on year round throwing have changed significantly and varies for individuals. You have told us over and over again who you know and who your son has worked with, that is all well in good, but does NOT mean that it is right for everyone.

TPM the reason I repeat myself is that many of these people are new. I do not pull this stuff out of the air but it comes from top level people. I also know coaches who take time off to rest.My son prefers to throw. I think that other opinions are fine but we have experienced good results with year around workouts. Yes the throwing is limited. Throwing a light bullpen & LT is not nearly as hard on an arm as game pitching. It also in my opinion it is harder on the arm to start up from a layoff.

No matter how many times this subject is written about on this great website, and no matter how many times people copy/paste quotes and recommendations from the medical experts (Dr. Andrews, etc.), there are still those who come on here and claim that they know better than those doctors.

Everyone can say that their kid never had an injury, until the day comes that he has an injury.

In my sixteen years a college head coach, and now as a private instructor and college pitching coach, I often shut down pitchers during fall practice if I believe they have throw too much in the spring/summer. Those of you who don't believe college coaches do such things are wrong.

I have met many parents (mostly dads) who don't seem to see the big picture and I have actually told them that I care more about their son's arm than they do. That usually ****es them off considerably, but I believe it to be a true statement when I say it.

As a private instructor, I often tell kids/parents who inquire about instruction that they need to take time off. Do I lose some income? Yes, but I get pitchers who maintain better arm health because of it.

For those of you trying to make the point to some people that their kids whould take some time off........they aren't going to listen. But I am glad to read that some of you advocate 2-3 months off.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
If your son went to college did he tell the coach when he got their that he had to take a few weeks off before he started throwing. Maybe his coach said you just finished your senior HS ball and travel ball so you can take a break. I don't think so.

My son did not attend college

Kinda like arguing religion. Grateful keep your shirt on.

quote:

Kinda like arguing religion.

Except for the impact on the UCL, rotator cuff, labrum and other joint related items that impact your ability and keep you best friends with the medical staff and out of Church on Sunday morning.

Ill let you know if he ever has a medical problem. He has gained 10lbs this year so far. Maybe he taking a break and munching on Fritos.

Long breaks allow tendons and ligaments to heal and then to atrophy. A couple months without throwing, unless there is significant damage is quite risky and may lead to injury.

A couple weeks off with no throwing is a good idea as long as there is a bit of range of motion work done to prevent scar tissue buildup and a couple months with no hard throwing (i.e. playing catch from about 60' max and not putting any "zip" on the ball)is also a good idea. Generally speaking light throwing that causes no pain will not cause damage to intact tendons or ligaments but will increase the limited blood flow to them to help heal microtears. Throwing rehab programs recommend taking 2 days off and going back down a level in throwing distance after feeling a twinge. Tendons can do some minor healing over that amount of time and then dropping back to a shorter distance gets enough stress on the tendon to avoid atrophy without further damage before increasing the distance again. It is a bit of a trial and error process.

If one has to take a significant amount of time off from throwing it is very important to work back into the throwing very gradually.

The reality is that tendons and ligaments heal slowly and at a bit different rate for every pitcher. There is no one amount of rest or throwing that works for everyone.

Infielddad,
It makes sense that MLB teams would shut down pitchers for an extended time in the off season. Most of those guys do significant damage to their arms during the season and finish the season throwing in pain to some degree. That type of damage requires time to heal. If a young pitcher does that much damage to their arm then they also need to take a long break. However, it would be better if young pitchers never damaged their arms to that degree and could throw through the year with only a couple weeks off from throwing and some longer periods without any hard throwing.

My son threw nearly year round at a moderate level without ever injuring his arm. He then had a mild injury after coming back too quickly from a two week break from throwing. That recovered just fine. Then he was forced to take 3 months off from throwing due to a non-arm related injury. He suffered a significant arm injury coming back from that break from throwing that 3 months off from throwing wasn't sufficient to fully heal. I'm virtually certain that if he'd been able to continue light throwing during his injury down time he wouldn't have suffered the arm injury.

Great post CADad,
So what i'm reading is short break help's with micro tear's.
And longer break's help with Tendon's and ligiment's.
But after a long break take your time at ramping back up.
EH

theEH,
Microtears in the muscles only take a day or so to heal reasonably well. Tendons take a bit longer. I'd say the minimum is probably two days for microtears and it really depends on the individual and the particular tendon. Each tendon tends to heal at a different rate depending on it's blood supply and the loads on it. During a rehab when you take two days off and then back down in distance you are probably giving the tendon about a week to heal micro tears. Significant partial tendon tears can take 2 or 3 months to heal and sometimes they don't fully heal.

The problem we all face is that you have to do damage (microtears) to tendons and ligaments to make them stronger. Unfortunately, given that tendons and ligaments heal slowly it is easy to create new microtears before the old ones can heal and the tendon or ligament gets weaker and vulnerable to tears. The ideal program is one where throwing is spaced out such that the damage is always healing and the tendon or ligament is always getting stronger. Since that is very hard to do just right people tend to take the easier route by allowing damage to mount up and then take a long break.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
....Tubing exercises...

Interesting concept coach. But doesn't it get kind of chilly to be tubing during the winter? What exercises are done while riding the tube....crunches? And if a wave knocks them off the tube mid-set, do they have to start over when they get back on the tube or just pick up where they left off??? I reckon this guy is doing some sort of tubing exercise....

Fully agree with CADad.
If my son had a problem I would shut him down and seek his doctors guidance.
I have seen lots of injuries on other teams but not on his. The other teams are summer travel teams and do not throw all year. I have seen 15 yo olds that need TJ surgury. I have always saw them as part time ball players who play another sport and do not properly prepare their arms.

quote:

Ill let you know if he ever has a medical problem.

I know, it never will happen to our son!

The thing is, you don't know if he is having a problem if it is caused by repeated and cumulative activities associated with the unnatural act of thowing a baseball.

If it helps any, I will copy and send a color VHS of an arthroscopy showing what throwing can do to a shoulder on a cumulative basis. Will also send a photo of a player with tears in his eyes as he drives himself in daily PT to regain his range of motion and be ready to compete at 100% by March.

Inf you blame that on throwing all year ? I can show you 50 guys playing US college ball that have no problems and threw all year.

Do you sell insurance ?

quote:

Infielddad,
It makes sense that MLB teams would shut down pitchers for an extended time in the off season. Most of those guys do significant damage to their arms during the season and finish the season throwing in pain to some degree. That type of damage requires time to heal. If a young pitcher does that much damage to their arm then they also need to take a long break. However, it would be better if young pitchers never damaged their arms to that degree and could throw through the year with only a couple weeks off from throwing and some longer periods without any hard throwing.

CADad, I am not sure I follow this.
We agree that players at the professional level should be shut down because of the wear and tear that season has on a fully developed arm.
We agree that it would be great if younger players never had arm injuries or damage.
We agree that if younger players did "that much damage" to their arm, they should shut down for a period.
Where I don't follow is how younger players, who are more vulnerable to injury because of the development of joints, tendons, muscles and cartilage, will benefit from throwing year round. How are they not doing a commensurate amount of damage to a younger arm by competing and throwing at maximum intensity on a year round basis. Remember, the intial post had to do with shutting down or throwing bullpens and the like over a 2 month time for a 16 year old in Fla. To my way of thinking, throwing a bullpen is max effort to mirror game situations.

quote:

Do you sell insurance ?

That was uncalled for - we can all disagree but why take that turn?

quote:

Inf you blame that on throwing all year ?

The team orthopedic surgeon for his professional team, who has coauthored a number of articles on baseball and shoulder injuries, and who did similar surgeries on a number of his teammates/players within the organization, was the one who provided that opinion. It was the cumulative effects of multiple years, not just one.

Micro tears of muscle is the soreness felt after overexerting a muscle. The muscle soreness you feel the day after a workout is caused by micro tears. Because of the way muscles heal muscle micro tears are actually beneficial for increasing strength and muscle size. They heal by adding muscle tissue not scar tissue. Muscle micro tears heal very fast because the muscles have a large blood supply. If not allowed to heal with rest they will not heal. Continued overexertion WILL cause an injury to the muscle.

Micro tears of ligaments heal even less well then tendons. There is minimal blood flow to ligaments. If the micro tears in ligaments are not allowed the opportunity to heal with rest they wont heal. The weakened state of the ligament will create new micro tears and deepen the existing ones. There will be minimal to no pain because the ligament has very few nerves.
A pitcher may loose some velocity or accuracy at this point. If he continues to pitch he his at great risk of damage that will require reconstructive surgery of the ligament in order to continue pitching.

So the same is true for muscles, tendons and ligaments. If not allowed to heal continued overexertion of will cause an injury.

The important thing to remember is that there is almost no pain or discomfort or soreness with ligamnet micro tears. You dont know when they are damaged and you cant feel when they get better.

For HS age pitcher and younger:
Be safe take a month off from throwing then start throwing lightly buildng back up over the next 2 months. If you think about its really not hard and is a small sacrifce to make.

No throwing in November, start throwing very easy in December, by the end of January your thinking that in February your going to be throwing full out. Seems to me that come March the arm will be good to go. How hard is that?

Ive gotten quite an education over the past 8 weeks. Its all information I wish I had sooner.

In its simplist terms, rest will help your arm, not resting may hurt your arm. Or maybe its rest will not hurt your arm but not resting it may hurt it. Either way You choose.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Long breaks allow tendons and ligaments to heal and then to atrophy. A couple months without throwing, unless there is significant damage is quite risky and may lead to injury.

Tendon and ligament atrophy only occurs under the most extreme circumstances (e.g. complete and extended immobilization of a joint).

It's not going to happen to someone who's in normal health and is just taking a few months off from throwing (and is probably playing basketball in the meantime).

Of course, you have to gradually work your way back into condition if you do take time off.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
The problem we all face is that you have to do damage (microtears) to tendons and ligaments to make them stronger.

Sorry, but your science is simply wrong here.

Muscles are completely different than ligaments, and the idea of microtears doesn't apply to ligaments. Ligaments tend to just get weaker over time (because scar tissue isn't as strong as the original tissue).

quote:

Originally posted by Beezer:

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
....Tubing exercises...

Interesting concept coach. But doesn't it get kind of chilly to be tubing during the winter?

There's also the problem of tubes going airborn...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8cHm8FIz78 (go to 35 seconds into clip)

;-)

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
A couple months without throwing, unless there is significant damage is quite risky and may lead to injury.

Only risky if you don't ease back into it.

the pain guy - that is EXACTLY correct! None of our players need to worry about atrophy! No one is saying for them to take to their beds for two months! Also correct that tendons and ligaments don't strengthen by tearing and rebuilding.

Also mentioned earlier about rehab programs resuming after two days rest - that completely depends on what the rehab program is for. Two days rest for some diagnosis would mean permanent damage!

As a nurse, some of the information in this thread is alarming and completely wrong! Anyone that thinks rest for a pitcher or a position player is wrong should spend some time in a orthopedic or rehab office!

It seems that some people think that a pitcher (or position player) who is shutting it down is not doing any kind of conditioning. At least it has been implied in a couple posts referring to college aged guys gaining weight.........atrophy taking place in connective tissue, etc.

Taking 2-3 months off, away from throwing, in NO WAY will increase the risk of injury. It is the failure to exhibit patience and failure to gradually get the arm back into shape that creates the risk.

Tendons and ligaments are used when players run, when they use the weight room, etc., just as are muscles.

Perhaps somebody will again post the recommendations from the best arm doctors in the land.........if anybody recalls what they recommended, they even say that in the three months away from throwing, players should also avoid the arm motion used in swimming the 'crawl'.

I have to head out again in a few minutes, otherwise I would look for it and post the link to it.

Sometimes parents don't understand that their intimate experience is only with their own sons/daughters, and if they have remained healthy then their methods must be the best methods. Doctors and even coaches have worked intimately with hundreds of pitchers, on a daily basis. Docs are the experts; coaches have daily experience, year after year with players.

Normally I restrain from getting into these discussions with salesmen, lawyers, pipe fitters, engineers, etc. It is similar to me arguing about courtroom procedures with trial attorneys.

Bobblehead,
Your son pitched a dozen innings last season.

What would you have him do if he had pitched 100-125? No rest at all?

As I said each situation is different, you can not even begin to compare his situation to a starting pitcher at some programs or in pro ball. In fact HS players unfortunetly put in more in a combined seasons of fall, spring and summer.

If your son puts significant time on the mound this year, pitches in a summer league, let me know if he needs rest or not next year.

quote:

Bobblehead,
Your son pitched a dozen innings last season.

Too funny.

I didn't mean it to be funny.

What I meant was, it's pretty hard NOT to be on a year round program when you put little time on the mound. If it was mine, I would hope he would be long tossing and throwing pens just to keep the arm healthy. You have to be honest when giving information.

You can't argue with a parent of a player who puts in 100 innings in college and another 50 in pro ball he doesn't need a rest. Or a young HS player trying to get a scholarship who pitched all spring then into summer and into fall he doesn't need a rest. Or a catcher who has caught 100 games. These guys NEED rest.

Some of you are talking like Fall ball is over. Heck, my son just pitched 5 innings tonight! I asked my son how he felt and he said he felt like he could have gone on forever. I think we will throw long toss once or twice a week, and maybe a bullpen or some flat ground once a week. We'll probably take off a couple of weeks after Thanksgiving and get back into throwing in the middle of December.

I will say that I have always paid attention to pitch counts - even the point of informing the coach to put the brakes on if the count is getting too high. We almost never pitch more than once a week - I think this has saved his arm.

This has been a very interesting thread. Today, I'm firmly of the opinion that teenaged players, at least pitchers and catchers, need to take some time off from throwing, ideally in the fall. Just a few years ago, I believed in having kids throw all year, and still do for position players, but definitely not for pitchers and catchers.

What has changed my view is watching some very talented players who've had to undergo shoulder or elbow surgery at way too young of an age. These boys played for different schools and summer teams, but had the common factor of heavy throwing on a year round basis. Nowadays, I prefer that pitchers and catchers take at least 4-6 weeks off from throwing, but still work on other strength and flexibility aspects of their game during this time. This gives a player plenty of time to work back into top condition for spring ball, and if they've been doing all the other things they should be doing, it won't take very long at all to be back.

My personal view is that November is an ideal time to do other things, and this can extend forward and back into October and December, depending on each individuals schedule. You CAN go to Jupiter and still get rest afterward, while allowing time to get ready for spring. Play another sport, or just work out hard, but give the arm a rest for awhile if you're a pitcher or catcher.