To throw or not to throw

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
To throw, or not to throw: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to subject
The tendons and ligaments to outrageous throwing,
Or to take arms against a sea of throwing,
And by opposing end the pain? To rest: to atrophy;
No more; and by a rest to say we end
The tendon-ache and the thousand natural tears
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To rest, to heal;
To rest: perchance to atrophy: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of rest what dreams may come
When we have fired off this mortal pitch...,

Holy c**p! .... sniff...sniff...that was beautiful man....

Wouldn't it be fascinating if someone could do a scientific study of arm injuries that took in when the player began to have discomfort and what he did along the way to deal with it before he had to have more serious treatment? In this day and age when researchers can get a government grant to study three eyed muck suckers or five spotted lizard lickers, why can't they get some money to study something that would actually benefit many people? I think it would be a very worthwhile study that would actually benefit someone other than the researcher.

I believe that in the old days, there were probably as many injuries and very possibly a higher percentage of players became injured along the way, but those players either quit playing or were just condidered not good enough to make it to the next level. Keep a couple things in mind, in the old days there weren't nearly as many people playing the game with the seriousness we see today. I can't imagine that college recruiting bore much resemblance in the 1960's or 1970's to what it does today. Way more people are taking it very seriously in this day and age, and that has brought a much sharper focus on how to avoid injuries and treat them when they occur so that junior can get back out there to keep moving along. I think in the old days, when a player suffered a serious problem it was probably just said that junior came down with a sore arm, and nobody thought too much about it when he gave up the game. I can't recall baseball details from back in the '70's too well, but I don't seem to remember anyone discussing pitchers having a torn UCL or rotator cuff. They just sort of faded away and everyone else went about their business. Imagine if we'd had the diagnostic and treatment options back then that we have now. Imagine the players who'd have come along that none of us have ever heard of. What would Sandy Koufax have been able to do if he'd have had a James Andrews or Frank Jobe to take care of his arm? Maybe we wouldn't call it the Cy Young award these days, it might be the Koufax award.

I'm rambling, but the point I'm trying to make is that there is much more awareness these days of injuries and how to avoid them or treat them when they happen. I too have heard many older baseball people say that players these days don't throw enough. I'm not sure I agree with that. I doubt that many teenage or young twenties aged players back in the 50's through 80's routinely played in over 100 games per year, with the exception of those playing professionally. You pretty much played spring baseball and maybe a little summer ball and then you were done in the overwhelming majority of cases. Nowadays, players throw through much or all of the year and they tend to play many, many more innings of baseball than when I was growing up.

I think players that choose to shut it down for 4-6 weeks in the fall or winter can do themselves a service if they take that time and increase their workouts in the gym, and for purposes of this discussion we'll assume they are in there all year long anyway. They can put plenty of load on their muscles, tendons and ligaments to build strength, but without subjecting their arms to the stresses that high intensity throwing causes. In an expanded sort of way, this is truly a version of cross training for baseball players.

Just like anything in life, there are different opinions on this subject and more than one method is correct.

What is vitally important is to have some understanding of limits and to proceed cautiously whenever necessary.

We also must remember that in the 'old days', and again, most of us have different thoughts on exactly when the old days were, but major league players didn't throw much at all in the off season for several months.....many of them were working other jobs in the winter. Also in the past, most high school athletes were not specializing in one sport as much as they are now; thus they were practicing other sports in the winter and fall.

Some pitchers need to work on velocity in the off season, some need to add new pitches, some need to improve the overall condition of their bodies, some need to rest their arms much more than others........but again, if there is an idea that rest is needed then it probably is.

And also again, it is not the long period of rest that causes injury when throwing again......it is the failure to be patient when returning to throwing that causes injuries.

quote:

......it is the failure to be patient when returning to throwing that causes injuries.

nicely said - that is one of the things that is hard for kids to do.

Very well said, Grateful.

The trend in recent years has been to throw all year round. Thsi trend has developed with the advent of elite teams. Yes there are a lot more kids playing ball.
I think PG summed it up well. Most coaches of elite teams offered all year training as throwing develops arm strength. We have been over all the reasons why you should or shouldn't throw all year. It is up to the individual pitcher to decide what works for him. All our teams over the last 5-6 years threw all year. The results spoke for them selves. Minimal injuries and many college level players. A lot of the injuries I saw were catchers and the injury was compounded by continuing to throw after feeling pain. One had TJ and never recovered. It is up to the parents/coaches to make sure their son's understand the importance of reporting soreness and or pain. Playing through pain is a big risk that may not be anything serious but it has to be delt with.

A little bit off subject:

I heard Tom House say that throwing off a mound is far more stressful on the arm than throwing on flat ground (I think he said 30% more stress) and he went on to say that a kid cannot hurt his arm by throwing on flat ground.

This was about 4 years ago, at a small clinic run by an associate of his who runs a pitching training facility in Portland (http://www.bioforcebaseball.com/)

Anybody else ever heard the same thing? Agree or disagree?

quote:

a kid cannot hurt his arm by throwing on flat ground.

---- I disagree ---

I invite you guys to read up on this first...these guys flat out know their stuff!

www.theflatearthsociety.org/

Living in a state that has year round baseball (little downtime) because of the weather, producing many first,second round draft picks,top college prospects, MLB players, I have seen major injuries that have included ending careers for many.

I don't think Cesar Izturis threw off a mound very often before his TJ problem.

In our area the development of elite teams and winter programs was to as best as possible get our players to a level they could compete with the warm climate players.
We have over 700 players playing US ball and I would suggest that without our winter programs we would have a lot less. Our AAA city teams played until labor day and did not start up until may. No winter programs. The coaches knew that they needed more and developed the elit teams and all year programs. It worked.

Bobbleheaddad,
That is where your advice differs from mine.

When you are in a situation where you can be playing outside 365 days a year vs less than half due to weather, things take on a different meaning. LT and light pens become more important when no actual game throwing exists.

Rest in HS becomes very important (complete shutdowns) when a pitcher puts in 100 plus innings a season. Rest becomes even more important when a college or pro player puts in 100+ innings a year when they did the same in HS.

As they say, so many bullets are in the gun. You have a lot more available to you when you live in a climate where you have shortened seasons to be on the hill.

So in giving advice and advocating year round activity understand that things are different and each player, his parents and coach need to decide when and if a shut down in necessary.

Down here, mnay young pitchers/catchers play fall, spring and summer. Some play multiple teams. Some pitchers catch, some catchers pitch, not giving it a rest. I have seen the amount they play take tolls on pitchers and catchers. And ususally it's all because of the need to win, to get better and to get noticed at too early of an age.