Tools

Speed, then Arm Strength...or vice versa!

quote:

Originally posted by funneldrill:
Speed, then Arm Strength...or vice versa!

What I tell our incoming freshman is that the quickest way to make the team, is to show good arm strength. Even if you can't run, or hit, if you can throw it, we'll just put you on the bump and try to make a pitcher out of you!

To me, arm strength is the number 1 tool. I also am of the belief that just not anyone can hit. I think that hitting is a natural skill not unlike speed and arm strength. Alot of old school guys disagree with that. To them, I tell them to come out to my tryouts and watch the kids that, "have not played in a couple of years." This may sound mean, but those kids do not have much of chance of making the team when they are competing for spots with the kids that play year round baseball. The kids that play year round are refining their skills on a daily basis and are much better for it.

You dads out there, we kind of did the same thing when we were young. Except instead of playing select baseball or going and getting lessons, we would ride our bikes up to the park and learn by trial and error. Whiffle ball taught me more about hitting the curveball than anything else...ahhhh the good old days!!!

funneldrill,
I respect your knowledge of the game and, as this is the High School Web, you may be correct that arm strength is the most important tool at the high school level. I can tell you, though, in my experience over the last couple of years, that arm strength is way down the list of tools that scouts and college coaches look for. For position players, it is guys that hit for power or guys that can run (athletes). For RH pitchers, it is velocity, plain, pure, and simple. LH pitchers are viewed differently.

quote:

Which tools are most important to scouts? It seems speed is at the top of the list

Hit and hit for power. These guys dont have to throw or run well in order to be first rounders (Beau Mills). Not as often will you see a prospect who cant hit at all, but runs and throws well do the same. Hitters are a premium. They are much tougher to find and scout then guys that are speed/arm players.

quote:

These are 9 of the top 37 times in Long Beach and the team did not show well.

At these games scouts and coaches dont care one bit who wins and loses this event. This event is 100% about individuals getting a chance to show their stuff to scouts/coaches.

quote:

but what does .2 seconds mean on the diamond? <--- an interesting subject to me.

PD,

It’s an interesting subject to me too.

Two tenths is approximately one stride. In any given game or even series of games it might not mean anything. But over the course of a season or many seasons it could make a big difference in many things including winning games.

One stride faster to first base is an obvious advantage. Of course that would be 2/10s quicker in 30 yards rather than 60 yards. So if everything were equal the 6.5 – 60 runner would get to first base a half stride quicker than the 6.7 – 60 runner. This can make a big difference over a long period of time. The same thing could be said for stealing bases, getting extra base hits, going from first to third, scoring from second base, ect.

The there is the advantage on defense. One stride can make a player much more valuable.

Every time an outfielder fails to reach a ball by one stride or less. Every time a base runner is thrown out on a bang bang play. It all adds up over a long period of time. Ichiro might be the single best example of the difference speed can make.

Of course, pure running speed is only a big advantage if the runner also has good instincts. Instincts can equalize that 2/10s difference at times. But instincts being equal, the faster runner has a big advantage.

With all that said… The single most important tool for a position player these days IMO is hitting!

IMHO, the glove is getting too little emphasis these days. Saw parts of two MLB games this weekend (maybe six innings total). And saw four really ugly defensive plays. None of which was scored as an error. But all four plays should have been made by any decent HS player, much less MLB'er. And all four cost their teams (either on that particular play, or through the remainder of the prolonged inning) multiple runs.

Is it not possible to find another player with a glove who can hit almost as well? But who wouldn't cost the team runs on defense? I would imagine. But today, as PG noted, the stick overrides all.

Also found it interesting that in one game both starting pitchers had 85 mph fb's. Yet a HS kid can't be a "prospect" if he isn't throwing 90 or is 6'6"...

deemax -- I agree that the game results are not important. My comment is directed more towards the thought that a particular tool is more heavily weighted in choosing these teams. Let me be clear....this is a discussion on a subject that intrigues me ----- I am not criticizing the kids listed here -- and I do NOT think my kid should have made this team. There is no back-handed intent.

PGStaff -- I agree that hitting should be the most important tool. But, in many cases, gap hitters need to be sub-7 in order to be considered for "center" positions, even if they consistently make MIF/CF plays. If they are not sub-7, they are viewed as corner guys who need to hit for power....yadda yadda. As many have mentioned over the years here....if a kid can hit, they'll find a place for him to play.

It certainly matters if a kid knows how to use his speed in the game. There can be a 7.5 runner in Centerfield, but if he gets good jumps, he will make more plays and he can look faster to the eye than the 6.6 runner who doesn't get good jumps.

Same thing on the bases. The instinctive baserunner who knows how you use his speed is an ideal situation. Problem is, there's not too many of those out there. There's a lot of kids who have good 60 times that can't run the bases.

Running is only one tool. All things being equal (they never are) the faster a player runs the more valuable he is.

Same thing could be said for all the tools, including fielding. All the tools give a player an advantage. But arm, run, field, all by themselves without another tool, really isn’t going to have much of a chance. At least if we are talking about the draft. I have seen outstanding hitters, especially those with power, go in the first round based on that alone for the most part. Prince Fielder for one.

Dillon,

Welcome. I respect your opinion and understand what you’re saying, but must add this… I don’t recall any 7.5 – 60 guys playing centerfield in professional baseball. No matter how good their instincts are. Possibly there might be some in college ball, but I think this discussion was started in regards to pro scouting and pro tools.

Instincts are very important and sure do make a big difference. However the difference between a 6.6 runner and a 7.5 runner needs to be looked at as distance rather than time.

The 6.6 runner will cover 60 yards in 6.6 seconds. The 7.5 runner will cover approximately 50 yards in that same 6.6 seconds. This means the 7.5 runner would have to have instincts to beat the 6.6 runner at the start by 10 yards. In other words, in this example, the great instincts slow runner, can’t possibly make up for the difference in running speed/ability. Now if we were talking about two tenths difference, that’s a different story. We have seen guys who run the 60 two tenths slower, beat the faster guy in the first 10 yards.

You are correct, we have seen lots of very fast runners who are not good base runners. We have also seen slow runners who are smart base runners. But I don’t recall ever seeing a slow runner who is a fast runner! If you know what I mean.

PGStaff -- you make a good point regarding the intent of the discussion (pro or otherwise). I suppose my comments are something I have noticed regarding college "scouts" as well, despite the fact that many do not insist on 4/5-tools guys -- they don't have that luxury in most cases. Everyone loves those guys!

quote:

6.6's can turn into 6.8's...6.8's to 7.0's.....alot depends on the track and the timing approach. Granted a fast kid is still fast, no matter the running surface.....

RANDALL THORPE | 6.50 | RANGERS
JARROD MCKINNEY | 6.63 | RANGERS
ROSS SEATON | 6.80 | RANGERS
BRANDON LOY | 6.82 | RANGERS
JP RAMIREZ | 6.82 | RANGERS
JEREMY RATHJEN | 6.90 | RANGERS
KALEB MERCK | 6.92 | RANGERS
JONATHAN PERLMAN | 6.96 | RANGERS
HUNTER CERVENKA | 6.97 | RANGERS

100% agree!!! Ringer1 son said he ran a 6.7? this summer. I'm going to tell him to ask Loy to lace em up this fall so we can see how accurate that 6.7? really is. Just joking Darren!!!

I have a feeling that 6.7? is more like 7.0?

Well, of coarse, I'm gonna put a different twist on this great topic..........

The single most important tool for who?????????

1. A Pro Scout
2. A College/Scout

Yes, the five tools we talk so much about are obvious tools that are necessary to compete at the college level or above.

And yes, average tools make great players in college and sometimes great players in pro ball.

There are different grading scales to measure these tools.

But other than a handfull of ballplayers in the history of this game................

There is one tool all successful ballplayers have that I believe is or should be the most important tool of all. All coaches love it and all scouts should want it.......................

#1 Tool = Heart

But I haven't found a way to measure it yet and unfortunately society doesn't compute it when figuring wins/losses.

But I will garauntee you one thing.............

When it's the bottom of the 9th, 2 outs, down by 1, runner on third, closer on the mound,..........

Give me the man with heart any day over a guy with just a good arm, speed, power, average hitter, or power hitter.

In my opinion, "heart" is more measurable in game situations -- as Ken eluded to above. It's a tough read in showcase or tryout situations. Of course, it's somewhat common to hear, "you have to see this kid play to appreciate his abilities" -- but I think it's often true. Coaches have to make evaluations based on what they see....at all levels. That's why it's a good idea for players to view every opportunity as a tryout of sorts....and learn to embrace them.

Ken,

No argument from me about the importance of that.

Only thing is... From a scouting perspective... Heart would not only be the hardest thing to evaluate... It would be one of the last things a scout would evaluate. Unfortunately I've seen many kids with a great big giant hearts, but they simply lacked the necessary ability/tools.

First one has to find the ability and then start comparing "heart". IMO And when that is all done... The guy with the biggest heart will most likely end up being the most successful.

American League stolen bases leaders since 1991..

I would have to say most of these guy's had all the tools .. some power, avg, great in the field,strong enough arms to get it done for quite a few years.. and most of all extremley fast.. I think speed in any sport is the one factor that gives those that have it the advantage and longevity over other players.

SPEED KILLS!



1991 Rickey Henderson, OAK 58
1992 Kenny Lofton, CLE 66
1993 Kenny Lofton, CLE 70
1994 Kenny Lofton, CLE 60
1995 Kenny Lofton, CLE 54
1996 Kenny Lofton, CLE 75
1997 Brian Hunter, DET 74
1998 Rickey Henderson, OAK 66
1999 Brian Hunter, DET-SEA 44
2000 Johnny Damon, KC 46
2001 Ichiro Suzuki, SEA 56
2002 Alfonso Soriano, NY
41
2003 Carl Crawford, TB 55
2004 Carl Crawford, TB 59
2005 Chone Figgins, LA Ang 62
2006 Carl Crawford, TB 58

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Ken,

No argument from me about the importance of that.

Only thing is... From a scouting perspective... Heart would not only be the hardest thing to evaluate... It would be one of the last things a scout would evaluate. Unfortunately I've seen many kids with a great big giant hearts, but they simply lacked the necessary ability/tools.

First one has to find the ability and then start comparing "heart". IMO And when that is all done... The guy with the biggest heart will most likely end up being the most successful.

Agreed...........

We both know there must be some ability tools wise to even have a chance.........

I have some of these...can I play?

A few of those are average major league players, john -- even with speed.

quote:

Hitters are a premium.

quote:

It certainly matters if a kid knows how to use his speed in the game. There can be a 7.5 runner in Centerfield, but if he gets good jumps, he will make more plays and he can look faster to the eye than the 6.6 runner who doesn't get good jumps.

Same thing on the bases. The instinctive baserunner who knows how you use his speed is an ideal situation. Problem is, there's not too many of those out there. There's a lot of kids who have good 60 times that can't run the bases.

quote:

I don’t recall any 7.5 – 60 guys playing centerfield in professional baseball.

quote:

RANDALL THORPE | 6.50 | RANGERS
JARROD MCKINNEY | 6.63 | RANGERS
ROSS SEATON | 6.80 | RANGERS
BRANDON LOY | 6.82 | RANGERS
JP RAMIREZ | 6.82 | RANGERS
JEREMY RATHJEN | 6.90 | RANGERS
KALEB MERCK | 6.92 | RANGERS
JONATHAN PERLMAN | 6.96 | RANGERS
HUNTER CERVENKA | 6.97 | RANGERS

The players in that group above that can hit will play.

AT the upper D1 level and the pros, the decision about whether to choose speed or hit does not have to be made.

They get to choose the best of the best that can hit and run.

quote:

I have a feeling that 6.7? is more like 7.0?

Ringer, I have a feeling your feelings are likely to get hurt.

I hope I don't get quoted on all of this.

One visit to the PG World Wood bat series will change your observations on these issues..............

It is a fascinating subject.

PD,

Rickey, Ichiro Kenny, Carl, Sori,etc....
AVERAGE PLAYERS...HMMM..

You have high expectations

Hunter, Damon, and Figgins are average MAJOR league players -- I didn't say all of them fit that description. I have no expectations -- just keeping it real.

PD,

I think those of us that are 40 plus should never say " KEEPING IT REAL "

YOU FEEL ME DAWG?

Keeping it real is one thing -- feeling your dog is another! Stuff happens to these topics after a few days, eh?

Fo shizzle!

I noticed this thread addresses all positions but the pitching except I agree with the 1 comment about having to throw 90+ to be on the radar when some pro's pitch upper 80's.
So what do you look for on a pitcher besides 95mph fastballs?
I've seen some boys throw in the high 80's and have several pitches, wins games, has heart, a good head in tight situations yet be ran away from when a kid accross the way is chunking 93 mph and has minimal other pitches..... perplexing to say the least!!

You can't teach speed.

Plano- It's a situation I've lived in my entire life. It's all about upside, and really, who is to blame them? Wouldn't we all love to throw 93 ?

quote:

Originally posted by planoball34:
I noticed this thread addresses all positions but the pitching except I agree with the 1 comment about having to throw 90+ to be on the radar when some pro's pitch upper 80's.
So what do you look for on a pitcher besides 95mph fastballs?
I've seen some boys throw in the high 80's and have several pitches, wins games, has heart, a good head in tight situations yet be ran away from when a kid accross the way is chunking 93 mph and has minimal other pitches..... perplexing to say the least!!

Good question, but here's the shake down.

Yes, a guy throwing 85 in HS can get a bunch of guys out.

But you take that same guy and send him to the big leagues and his chances are slim. Not saying it doesn't happen, but scouts and organizations will play the percentages.

The percentages say that a 6 footer with below average major league fastball will have a very short or no major league career.

Now, look at those percentages of of successful major league pictures and see if you can come up with average height and fastball velocity.

True Story: 1997
Had 2 pitchers that I thought were both pretty special. Pitcher 1 was 10 & 1 and was named Area "Player of the Year" Pitcher 2 was 4 & 6

Pitcher 1 settled for a partial deal at Galveston JC and Pitcher 2 got drafted by the Chicago White Sox but went to school at a JC and then signed with Alabama. Pitcher 1 was a valet after 1 year. UGH! I was sitting with RG (MLB Scout) the next fall and asked what the deal was.
Pitcher 1's potential was to probably be a Great college pitcher. Pitcher 2's potential was to someday be a MLB pitcher.
Heigth and body structure as well as family history were all brought into play and considered.
Both threw in the high 80's.
I didn't like it but now I get it.

Just a random question, but in a way, could we not consider height --for pitchers-- a tool?

When speaking of potential and projected body type it is considered huge to an organization. Pitchers fit in their prototype or else they must be pretty dang sure they are a "can't miss" prospect. The bigger they are the more apt they are to withstand a 162 game schedule.

Swing doc -- you have a PM.

quote:

Originally posted by swingdoctor14:
The bigger they are the more apt they are to withstand a 162 game schedule.

I would have to see that statement backed up by a good study before I could accept it. Quite a few big boys have hit the DL over the past several years.

That was just passing on information given to me.
That's the thought process. I'm with KG that HEART
can and should be a factor.

A player must have 2 WOW factor tools. If a player is at a combine and he runs a 6.3 that is a WOW tool. But if he looks like my sister hitting or throwing he will be a NO. Hitting for average is a tool but a scout watching a game does not know his average they look at does he swing and miss too much. The best WOW factor tool is flat hitting the ball off the wall. Example: If you are a 6.8 runner (witch is good) and you just hit singles time and time again and your average is .400 (witch is good) you are not a prospect. You must drive the ball. My point is you can’t look at just one tool. What I think is if I see a kid absolutely smokes a ball off the wall at that point I start looking for one more WOW tool.

and KCR would say this because he is a WOW hitter with power when the ball is set on a tee!

quote:

Originally posted by KCR:
...If you are a 6.8 runner (witch is good) and you just hit singles time and time again and your average is .400 (witch is good) you are not a prospect.

Someone needs to tell Ichiro he isn't a prospect. Guess Ty Cobb wasn't a prospect either. We should yank that singles hitting piker out of the HOF...