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quote:
Originally posted by KCR:
The best WOW factor tool is flat hitting the ball off the wall. Example: If you are a 6.8 runner (witch(which) is good) and you just hit singles time and time again and your average is .400 (witch (see above)is good) you are not a prospect. You must drive the ball. My point is you can’t look at just one tool. What I think is if I see a kid absolutely smokes a ball off the wall at that point I start looking for one more WOW tool.


What % of hits would have to be non-singles to consider the player with the 6.8 time and .400 avg. described above?
Last edited by collikar
You don't understand oh mighty wielder of the purple pen. It isn't the stats. It is being a big kid and smacking a ball off the wall while a scout is watching. Strictly a matter of clobbering the ball at the right time.

At that point, you become "projectable". You have power & projectability. They can teach you everything else... Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by FormerObserver:

quote:
I have a feeling that 6.7? is more like 7.0?

Ringer, I have a feeling your feelings are likely to get hurt.

I hope I don't get quoted on all of this.

One visit to the PG World Wood bat series will change your observations on these issues..............

It is a fascinating subject.


Oh, I was just joking around anyway. I truly have no idea how fast he is, honestly. Although I did call him up and ask what he ran and he said a 6.72.
I think someone might want to calibrate that watch.

I was at the PG World Wood Bat Series. Sorry, but they grow em to run just as fast here as they do anywhere else. And we played two of the teams that made the top 8. I believe one made it to the semi's.
quote:
Originally posted by Texan:
quote:
Originally posted by KCR:
...If you are a 6.8 runner (witch is good) and you just hit singles time and time again and your average is .400 (witch is good) you are not a prospect.

Someone needs to tell Ichiro he isn't a prospect. Guess Ty Cobb wasn't a prospect either. We should yank that singles hitting piker out of the HOF...


Man, I thought I was doing okay. . .
I'm getting confused.

.400 hitter at what level, Major League, high school, or Little League? All are good but they are not the same by any stretch of the imagination.

All singles? That would amount to a .400 slugging percentage and that is not so good!

Not sure about Ty but Ichiro runs much faster than 6.8, he steals lots of bases and Ty was the best base stealer of his era. Also Ichiro has one of if not the best arms in baseball. He's also an outstanding defensive outfielder. That gives him 4 plus plus tools, only minus a plus in the power department.
quote:
Originally posted by Texan:

I would have to see that statement backed up by a good study before I could accept it. Quite a few big boys have hit the DL over the past several years.


I got a statement that will back it up........

Every year millions of dollars are spent on Tall lengthy frames for pitches........

Every year there are very few contacts given to small short framed pitchers..........

How's that for a statement.......Money talks. Wink
Last edited by Ken Guthrie
Sorry, kg, that doesn't cut it. I've seen multimillions wasted by huge, highly respected corporations. Thrown away on mantras that were similar in nature to what we're discussing here. Just because mutlimillions were spent pursuing that mantra didn't mean the mantra was right.

Anyone who thinks that throwing dollars at something means it is true has a very shallow thought process.
quote:
Originally posted by Texan:
Sorry, kg, that doesn't cut it. I've seen multimillions wasted by huge, highly respected corporations. Thrown away on mantras that were similar in nature to what we're discussing here. Just because mutlimillions were spent pursuing that mantra didn't mean the mantra was right.

Anyone who thinks that throwing dollars at something means it is true has a very shallow thought process.


Yep, very shallow I guess........

**** stupid baseball people........how dare they spend money on what the percentages tell them.

Greg Maddox pipe dreams regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Texan:
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
That gives him 4 plus plus tools, only minus a plus in the power department.


quote:
Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
Ichiro is a 5 tool player............


Six? Do we hear six? Come folks, let's keep the bid moving up.


When PG reads this, I'm sure he will include that his 4 tool profile includes what his numbers only dictate.

Stand by the cage during his BP session, or in your case from the homerun porch row double fistin' hot dogs.

Yep, I said 5 regards,
kg, by means of illustration, tell the scouts that to be a successful bullpen catcher, you've got to weigh at least 275 lbs. So what will the scouts start doing? They will start making sure that, except for rare exceptions, the bullpen catcher prospects coming up weigh at least 275. The scout will be concerned about considering a lighter bullpen catcher a "prospect", because if the lightweight doesn't make it the scout will be castigated for being stupid by going against "conventional wisdom". But if he only chooses the big boys, when one of them fails it will just be said "Well, they don't all make it. But dang that 275 pounder could sure hold that bench down good!"

And after a while, pretty much all the bullpen catchers will be at least 275. Any bullpen catcher weighing under that will have a tough time getting on board, no matter how great he is, because he won't be considered a "prospect".

Then some bright person (like you) will come along and observe that obviously a bullpen catcher needs to weigh 275. Because dang near all the bullpen catchers now in the pros weigh at least 275. Sometimes called a self-fulfilling prophesy...

And you can have the last word...
Last edited by Texan
quote:
Originally posted by Texan:
kg, by means of illustration, tell the scouts that to be a successful bullpen catcher, you've got to weigh at least 275 lbs. So what will the scouts start doing? They will start making sure that, except for rare exceptions, the bullpen catcher prospects coming up weigh at least 275. The scout will be concerned about considering a lighter bullpen catcher a "prospect", because if the lightweight doesn't make it the scout will be castigated for being stupid by going against "conventional wisdom". But if he only chooses the big boys, when one of them fails it will just be said "Well, they don't all make it. But dang that 275 pounder could sure hold that bench down good!"

And after a while, pretty much all the bullpen catchers will be at least 275. Any bullpen catcher weighing under that will have a tough time getting on board, no matter how great he is, because he won't be considered a "prospect".

Then some bright person (like you) will come along and observe that obviously a bullpen catcher needs to weigh 275. Because dang near all the bullpen catchers now in the pros weigh at least 275. Sometimes called a self-fulfilling prophesy...
And you can have the last word...


Alex, I'll take "Have a clue" for $500........

Your answer, a daily double...

Simple statement and a simple question...........

Twelveth round Milwaukee Brewers, 1997.............

What about you?

Thankyouverymuch regards,
Last edited by Ken Guthrie
Holy smokes where's PD? Maybe I can step in before the "eye" sees this. Settle down guys, com'n. I'm not 100% sure what this argument is exactly about, but something is telling me that it's being influenced from something OUTSIDE this thread.

Taller pitchers create a greater angle when throwing, thus making is harder to hit. There, although it's much too little of an explanaition, maybe we can leave it at that. Easy easy... I'm short, I ain't complaining. (On this message board).

My comment is a waste of internet space!
quote:
Originally posted by Dtiger:
Holy smokes where's PD? Maybe I can step in before the "eye" sees this. Settle down guys, com'n. I'm not 100% sure what this argument is exactly about, but something is telling me that it's being influenced from something OUTSIDE this thread.

Taller pitchers create a greater angle when throwing, thus making is harder to hit. There, although it's much too little of an explanaition, maybe we can leave it at that. Easy easy... I'm short, I ain't complaining. (On this message board).

My comment is a waste of internet space!


DTiger, trust me...........I'm as cool as the other side of the pillow.

Actually, my 275 pound gut is hurting from laughing so hard. Big Grin
Texan,

If you think that Ichiro does not have at least 2 WOW tools then you don't watch the game. Ichiro has all of them. Arm, 6.4 runner (not a 6.8 runner), big time pop. I said you must have 2 WOW tools and he does. Oh by the way he also can hit the ball out in BP when ever he feels like it, but he does not want to play the game that way. He could hit in the 3 hole for most MLB teams if he wanted to play the game that way.
Last edited by KCR
quote:
Originally posted by KCR:
Texan,

Oh by the way he also can hit the ball out in BP when ever he feels like it, but he does not want to play the game that way. He could hit in the 3 hole for most MLB teams if he wanted to play the game that way.


Oh, he knows..........

I saw him at the bottom of a dog pile during BP.

But he still held on to his radar gun.



Big Grin
Last edited by Ken Guthrie
quote:
Originally posted by Texan:
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:
I saw him at the bottom of a dog pile during BP.

But he still held on to his radar gun.
Big Grin


Pssst. kg. Your ignorance is showing again. Pretty badly, actually. Anyone who has read much on this board knows I'm not a fan of radar. Better luck next with your next guess.


Dang it...........

Can't believe I showed my ignorance again.......

You win regards,
quote:
Originally posted by KCR:
Example: If you are a 6.8 runner (witch is good) and you just hit singles time and time again and your average is .400 (witch is good) you are not a prospect. You must drive the ball. My point is you can’t look at just one tool. What I think is if I see a kid absolutely smokes a ball off the wall at that point I start looking for one more WOW tool.


Perhaps I misunderstood your statement. But it appeared to me that unless a kid "smokes a ball off the wall", he won't get a further look. If he does "smoke a ball off the wall", then you start looking for another "WOW tool".

Had you been scouting Cobb when he was coming up (or any Cobb type player), odds are that you wouldn't have seen him "smoke a ball off the wall". Just based on sheer probabilities. Sure he hit some HR's over the years, but a small percentage. Whether by ability or choice, Cobb was not a long ball hitter. So someone using "smoke a ball off the wall" as the first screening criteria probably would have screened out Cobb.

That was my point.

And I am using Cobb as an example or "type", one that should be well know to all.

If I misunderstood what you were saying, then my apologies.
If I was scouting back then odds are I would have not seen anyone hit the ball off the wall. Ruth hit 14 homeruns his 3rd third year and led the league. Also how do you know Cobb did not have 2 WOW tools? I don't even think they had stop watches then. Or a radar he could have had a big time arm. But times have changed.... He may not have been a prospect today. I also need to tell you I was only talking about what the pros look for. Not college players. Plenty of colleges will take a kid with 1.5 tools.

By the way the Dodgers have a few openings in the scouting Department. Maybe you can give them some good insight on what to look for in a player. I heard they like drafting 6.8 runners with No pop. Please research www.ladodgers.com
Last edited by KCR
Let me be a devil's advocate, and just throw this out there... to get to Farmington, you have to have 1 tool--winning. Big Grin. In all seriousness, I do feel like there are (and I'd think people would agree with me) better or not so good "winners." I could use myself as an example, but I'd make everyone go to sleep. For Farmington, yes, tools can be great... but I've played on lots of teams with great tools, it's how they mesh and the attitude ("winners") that comes with those tools that seem to be the best solutions to winning-at this level. Of course, now that I just said that... I haven't been to Farmington, so any stickler can feel free to mention how I don't really know... I'm just imagining.

PD-...
quote:
Originally posted by KCR:
By the way the Dodgers have a few openings in the scouting Department. Maybe you can give them some good insight on what to look for in a player. I heard they like drafting 6.8 runners with No pop. Please research www.ladodgers.com


Nawww... kg will be the one to chase that one down. I don't own a Stalker or a laser timer. And I even think pitchers don't have to be over 6'2" to be successful at any level of ball.
Ichiro can hit the ball out of the park. Tools are graded at the Major League level. This is very hard to predict in most amateur players, but much easier in MLB players. Power is based on the ability to hit a certain number of HRs at the MLB level. Ichiro falls short of average based on the results. When amateurs are compared to MLB players (which is a fairly common practice in scouting), no one will claim some amateur power hitting prospects power compares to Ichiro.

So it is possible that someone could say Ichiro has average or even above average MLB power and it’s only his style that is the reason he doesn’t hit more HRs. And some could argue that, that is true. Wade Boggs for instance had plus power that he would show off in BP, but didn’t hit a ton of HRs because of his opposite field approach in games. The question is… would guys like Wade Boggs and Ichiro grade out as high as hitters (ave.) if they had hit for more power (HRs)?

Others could say that a true plus power hitter does or can hit a certain number of home runs at the Major League level. I’ve never heard of an average college level ever being used.

There are players who hit for average and hit home runs. Pujols, ARod, etc. These would be the players who have both the plus hitting and plus power tools.

IMO There are a few things that distinguish true power in an amateur player. Distance is one obvious thing that shows “raw” power. Raw power is usually the one thing we most often see in BP. Frequency is another that shows true power in BP but more importantly in games, and another plus to those who can hit it a long ways to all fields and hit with power from different levels of the strike zone is another plus. Top spin hitters (Ichiro) are rarely graded out high as power hitters, but there have been some exceptions to that.

Wade Boggs would hit long balls in BP to the pull side and line drives to opposite field. Note: sometimes the guys with the most raw power just don’t hit many HRs in games for lots of reasons, so you have to take that into account. Raw power relates to distance, the power grade relates more to frequency. Some of the very best grade high in both. There are 5 tools, but each of those has several other “tools” that are graded.

So it would be a matter of opinion regarding how to grade power. Let’s just say that of the five tools, Ichiro grades out higher in run, throw, field, and hit than he does in power. I think that would hold true that power would be his “weakest” tool in every scout’s estimation.

Then again there has never been a true explanation of a 5 tool player. In my mind, it is some one who is above average in all 5 tools. Thus I would have a hard time grading Ichiro above average in power.

Grading an amateur player in hitting and power is different in some ways than grading a Major League player (that which the grades are based on). One is based on prediction, the other is based on results. Many amateurs with above average power grades do not become average power hitters if and when they get to the Major Leagues.

What was the topic here again? Smile

Anyway, it's always interesting to read everyone's opinions on subjects like this.
PG,

I think you and I are on the same wave length on an Ichiro type player and his "power" tool.

But you suggest that he does not display above average major league power in game situations thus making him a 4 tool player............

Why would you grade a MLB player on game action vs. how pro scouts grade an amatuer player on skills alone.

We agree that Achiro can put a show on like anyone during BP.........

So if he showed up to a PG workout and was 18, how would his "power" tool be graded..........

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