Fastball. Perhaps you are right. Maybe the word "most" was strong. Maybe it's correct. My point is that the top 15U travel teams are concentrations of talent. There is no weak spot in the order, no hole in the defense. And 6'3" kids throwing mid to high 80's in some cases. Some of these teams have seven or eight QUALITY pitchers. How many varsity teams can say that? A lot of these kids will play varsity baseball as freshman."Most" high school teams have varying levels of talent. I still think any of the top ten nationally ranked 15U teams would be very competitive against "most" varsity teams. Anyhow, great discussion. Happy New Year, and GO BEARS!
You also have to take into account the maturity level and mental toughness of a 15 year old compared to a 17 or 18 year old varsity player. Just because you might have what you consider to be better talent , doesnt necessarily mean victory .
behind the plate, I realize that there are many very good 15u players out there. Are you referring to many of the Illinois 15u playing varsity as freshmen? I was just looking at the top 20 from pbr for the class of 2007 and I can't speak for all of them but some of the top 20 I have seen since 9 years old and are very good ballplayers. Matt Gailey,Butch Biela, Elliot Soto, Joe Huenecke, Dane Hall, Teddy Schell, Jake Smolinski and Grant Monroe are all listed pretty high if not in the top 20, Of these only Monroe played varsity as a freshman Huenecke pitched on a limited basis on the varsity and even as a Sophmore only pitched on Varsity and then 1b for the sophmores. The rest I listed did start as Sophmores. I think these are some pretty good ballplayers, I just think it is usually a big jump as a Freshmen playing against 18 year old players. They all played varsity as sophmores. Just a thought.
Lineshot - No, I wasn't limiting the statement to Illinois 15U. There are a few in Illinois, however, that probably will play varsity ball. I was referring to the national 15U talent pool. I believe most of the top ten nationally ranked travel teams will have kids fresh from varsity ball this summer. Most of them, will probably be pitchers. It will be interesting to see how they fare against the older kids. Keep in mind that some varsity teams have few seniors on the team, and that the age difference may only be a year or two. And some of the 15U's coming in are very well seasoned from years of competitive travel ball.
BeenthereIl,
A very impressive listing indeed. I guess that assuming that "young timers" have put together a group of future talents, such as listed in your grouping, they could possible have the success against high school varsity teams as 15 year olds.
Reviewing some of your listed school rosters, it seems like at least some of the players from your team are no longer playing. Have they left school or lost interest in the game or other issues?
A very impressive listing indeed. I guess that assuming that "young timers" have put together a group of future talents, such as listed in your grouping, they could possible have the success against high school varsity teams as 15 year olds.
Reviewing some of your listed school rosters, it seems like at least some of the players from your team are no longer playing. Have they left school or lost interest in the game or other issues?
I dont know which 15 year old teams behind the plate and grandslam are referring to when they say these teams could compete against 17 and 18 year olds . If they are that confident , then they should get their teams in some 17u or 18u tourneys during the summer and see how they fare. Pure speculation otherwise.
quote:it seems like at least some of the players from your team are no longer playing. Have they left school or lost interest in the game or other issues?
lsc...Some have transferred and a couple have stopped playing...one because of his own decision; and, another, because of a coaches' decision.
A few are talking about MBA's and professional schools and are unwilling to "play and hope" for $1000 a month in the low minors (short season).
I'm a big fan, of course, but some 19-20 year old young men have plenty more on their minds (like intelligent, good-looking women) than playing baseball if there is no "further payoff" for them down the line....
Time to enjoy summers for some of them and plan for life after the game.
Sulltiger24, again you're clueless. If the top 15u teams would enter summer tournaments against 17 and 18u teams, that would be against travel teams not school teams. Those 17 and 18u teams would be very strong travel teams also. The conversation was competing against JV or Varsity school teams, not older travel teams. Again you miss the point. As for which certain 15 and 16u teams from Illinois could compete and defeat certain varsity HS teams. I think the list would be limited, but there's many select teams from all around the country that would compete very well against local school ball teams. A select few teams from every state including Illinois would do very well playing against varsity teams. I'm sure many top 15u teams will play up a year or two in a few select tournaments, but the 15u level is showing to have many highly skilled tournaments in 2006. Again, if teams that are "elite" would want to play up a year or two in summer tournaments, then most of those tournaments would be against top older travel teams. I'm sur 99% of the readers on here understand what I just explained.
Quote:
________________________________________
(like intelligent, good-looking women)
________________________________________
I would probably add wealthy as well.
To try to tie this back to the thread...
One of the main reason to play for high level teams that participate in top 15 and 16u tournaments is to get ready for the next level
of play.
BeenthereIL stated reasons why some of his obvious talented and highly recruited group may not be playing at this point. Hopefully, the reasons will be remembered by all parents (especially the younger ones) reading this thread today.
Heres a couple other thoughts paraphrased from the mouth of college athletes and parents to me:
Its not fun to wake up at 5:00 a.m. for weights only to be back later in the late afternoon for practice.
There is no off season.
Trips to Cancun on spring break is what other people do.
Realization that you are a member of a collegiate program that your skills won't allow you to compete favorable but, your mom and dad sure are proud.
The JUCO kid who transfers and takes a spot away from your kid after waiting two years for his shots, may force a transfer to a school he really don't like. (If he wants playing time).
Knowing that turning down acceptance for this a "fast-track" internship, because of baseball, may be the biggest mistake made in my life.
Just a couple thought to help keep things in perspective and certainly not to understate the experience or benefits of collegiate athletics as there are many.
________________________________________
(like intelligent, good-looking women)
________________________________________
I would probably add wealthy as well.
To try to tie this back to the thread...
One of the main reason to play for high level teams that participate in top 15 and 16u tournaments is to get ready for the next level
of play.
BeenthereIL stated reasons why some of his obvious talented and highly recruited group may not be playing at this point. Hopefully, the reasons will be remembered by all parents (especially the younger ones) reading this thread today.
Heres a couple other thoughts paraphrased from the mouth of college athletes and parents to me:
Its not fun to wake up at 5:00 a.m. for weights only to be back later in the late afternoon for practice.
There is no off season.
Trips to Cancun on spring break is what other people do.
Realization that you are a member of a collegiate program that your skills won't allow you to compete favorable but, your mom and dad sure are proud.
The JUCO kid who transfers and takes a spot away from your kid after waiting two years for his shots, may force a transfer to a school he really don't like. (If he wants playing time).
Knowing that turning down acceptance for this a "fast-track" internship, because of baseball, may be the biggest mistake made in my life.
Just a couple thought to help keep things in perspective and certainly not to understate the experience or benefits of collegiate athletics as there are many.
Isc59, and Grandslam I agree with much of what you guys have just mentioned. This was a good topic in regards to top tournaments around the country, and the additional discussion on HS and Travel baseball. I think this topic has said about all that can be said. I think most of us can agree on, top travel baseball is where the best teams and many of the top players play to seek out the best competition. Highschool ball at the freshman and sophomore levels are less than competitive at times, but the HS goal for all players is to play for their varsity teams. Which is very good. I think most people know that travel baseball is so strong, and that's why most of the top 15 thru 18 year olds play on very good travel teams. Many players from all around the country go play for top programs in other states so they can seek out the best competition while playing for a very good program. This can all be done for the most part, and that player can still represent their HS and have a good season in March thru May as well for the school team. The more baseball you play, the better you'll be!
Grandslam
Im sure you could find some 17 or 18u tournament that had just average teams entered . This would be comparable to playing a varsity team. Since you cant play a varsity team during their season ( spring) and they cant play you during your season , this would be the only option. You leave yourself open to criticism when you know you cant play these varsity teams in season, but yet you talk about how you think you can compete with them . Maybe you can , maybe you cant, there is only one way to find out.....actually PLAY THE GAMES on a field . All the talk is meaningless unless you are willing to actually play the games against the competition that you are up here on the board talking about. How about coming back on the board after your team has done this and then you can give the results . That would be a much better solution than just talking up a good game . If you are serious , than im sure you will schedule your team against this older competition you keep talking about. Let everyone know the name of your team so they can follow the schedule during the summer.
Im sure you could find some 17 or 18u tournament that had just average teams entered . This would be comparable to playing a varsity team. Since you cant play a varsity team during their season ( spring) and they cant play you during your season , this would be the only option. You leave yourself open to criticism when you know you cant play these varsity teams in season, but yet you talk about how you think you can compete with them . Maybe you can , maybe you cant, there is only one way to find out.....actually PLAY THE GAMES on a field . All the talk is meaningless unless you are willing to actually play the games against the competition that you are up here on the board talking about. How about coming back on the board after your team has done this and then you can give the results . That would be a much better solution than just talking up a good game . If you are serious , than im sure you will schedule your team against this older competition you keep talking about. Let everyone know the name of your team so they can follow the schedule during the summer.
Lets follow up on this thread in the spring and report how many of these super Illinois 15U freshman made and played on their varsity teams this coming spring. In fact some of these 15U were already freshman last year how many of them played on their varsity team last spring? Its amazing to me how the quality of varisty high school baseball is challenged I mean we have schools like Naperville Central, Lockport, New Trier, Sangburg, Notre Dame, Joliet Catholic to name a few. Even some varsity teams that finish in the middle of the conferance and don't get deep in the playoffs I think most would completely womp the best 15U Illinois travel teams next year. I think travel ball has more to offer but you can't compare 15U and varsity baseball.
Sulltiger24, like I said you're clueless. I never mentioned one specific team in matching up against varsity teams. For that matter I started this thread talking about all the great 15 and 16u tournaments listed for this upcoming season. A topic I guess you're very unaware of. I jumped into the conversation when it turned to Travel ball vs HS ball, and yes I gave my opinion on what I thought. I think there's a select few "elite" teams from every state that could compete against some good varsity teams. My son goes to a good HS, that has a decent baseball program, but it won't even come close to comparing to the travel ball experience he'll continue to receive over the next three to four seasons. The best competition is in travel baseball. That's nothing against the varsity highschool teams, but none of those HS teams will get to play in Florida, and many other states against the best competition in the country like top travel teams do.
Well said Playdog! There were quite a few freshmans playing last year at 14u - not playing at the varsity level - Lets wait until spring and see who does what at the high school level
Playdog, that's a great point. I really feel there's a select few teams at the 15 and 16 year old divisions that would play very well against certain varsity teams. This was a good discussion. Speaking of very good 15u teams in Illinois. There's two teams that I think will do very well on the national level this year. The Schaumburg Seminoles and the Dupage Diamondbacks. The Diamondbacks have two very strong pitching prospects in Chris Briggs who played alot on varsity last year as a freshman, and Jake Naumann who's attending Naperville H.S. Both these pitchers are very good. The Seminoles added Jack Havey who's attending Loyola HS not New Trier which somebody mentioned in an earlier post. This kid should be playing varsity this year as a Freshman, and will do very well for the Seminoles. I seen him play a few games in Wilmette last year. Mike Olp, and Sean Kennedy are two of the top players at the 15u level in Illinois, and have been helping the Seminoles win for years. The best pitcher maybe on the team is Duplessis, and he goes to a very good Highschool in Lockport. They won't be moving him up anytime soon, with the varsity team they've at Lockport. These two teams should be the class of the 15u teams in Illinois this year. In regards to Grandslam, and to Sulltiger. First Grandslam, I agree with some of what you said, but like I've already indicated this topic has probably said everything it's needed to be said. If your son plays on an elite travel team, then congratulations that's great for you guys. Sulltiger, I think only productive posts should be listed on this site. Keep it positive. I do think some people forget that not evey player will play varsity baseball, or not every player can play for the top elite travel teams. That's what makes tryouts, cuts, competition, and development so interesting and important. Happy New Year to everyone. I guess I'm now an official member to this site with the rest of the people who post so much on here. My wife is four months pregnant so I guess I have a few months left to have some free time between work and the house. P.S. I got two pm's and if we've another boy the name Ozzie might be a possiblity. I don't think my wife will go for it though. Thanks for the pm though.
Rebel222, I just read your last post. I started this thread and it was a good one. My last few posts were just responding to a post from someone misinformed. This was a very good overall thread, and yes I'm very proud my son plays for a very good travel team. Also, congrats on your wife being pregnant. Don't name the baby Ozzie, and for that matter definetely don't name your son Dusty either!
Not that my opinion is worth a nickle to a dime, but I think Sulltiger24 made some good points. He is absolute right when he states that there are some very good "non-elite" tournaments available at the 17 year old level that could prove to be interesting competition. If the mentioned 15 year old teams are that talented and assuming that some of the team coaches participate on this website, you would think they would want to seek out the best competition. Just like BeenthereIL mentioned in regards to playing the best competition in his post. I would think such teams would gravitate to such a tournament, so to use as a measuring stick toward skill development and talent levels of their ball team. Sulltiger24 is right...until such a game(s)are played everything else is just guesswork. Everything else being equal, I would think the week in week out competition within their age group is minimum due to their stated talent level. If not tournaments, are there any games scheduled against 16/17/18 year old teams of any caliber?
Sulltiger did make some good points. And both Behindtheplate and Grandslam while making some points as well have backtracked quite a bit from their earliest statements regarding the 15 year olds and their level of success against Varsity Teams.
I guess that's what you call give and take.
I guess that's what you call give and take.
So did I on the possible skill level of some 15/16 year old teams. That is the beauty of this site.
I like many others, think the term elite is often used to describe a good or even darn good team. The concept and design of travel is changing....no doubt about that point. Here is an example....I was watching a game betwen the Seminole and the Longshots at 11 year old level last summer. The Seminoles lost....all I heard from the Manager was how they were an elite team and it was the umpires fault.(AIn between blasting his 11 year old players). The umpire was my son. He umpired a very good game. If he did not, the Seminole coach would have had to wait in line behind me to advise him of his poor game calling skills. Is the 11 year old Seminoles an elite team? No! Do they think they are because at an older level they have had great success and may even be elite? Absolutely! Are they a good team? Very good!
I like many others, think the term elite is often used to describe a good or even darn good team. The concept and design of travel is changing....no doubt about that point. Here is an example....I was watching a game betwen the Seminole and the Longshots at 11 year old level last summer. The Seminoles lost....all I heard from the Manager was how they were an elite team and it was the umpires fault.(AIn between blasting his 11 year old players). The umpire was my son. He umpired a very good game. If he did not, the Seminole coach would have had to wait in line behind me to advise him of his poor game calling skills. Is the 11 year old Seminoles an elite team? No! Do they think they are because at an older level they have had great success and may even be elite? Absolutely! Are they a good team? Very good!
Isc59, my sons team will play in many 16u national tournaments as well as I think one 17u tournament this year. The main focus is playing in all the top 15 and 16u events. I think that's more important than playing some average 17 and 18u teams in small local tournaments. The top teams and programs have much bigger fish to fry than playing some local tournaments. Our team will be playing in the 16u Junior Olympics and the 16u Perfect Game World Series. Playing up one year in these events will be much more worth while and challenging than playing some local 17 or 18 year old teams. I think this thread along with many others was for good conversation. Fastball, never went back on what I said. I always said certain select or that word again "elite" teams from every state could compete playing a few years up in class. Who would win? Who cares, it's conversation. There's always exceptions to every rule. Here's another case of that. A few select teams, is exactly what it is a few select teams. For the teams that can't afford to travel, or aren't a strong enough team to travel then stay home and play local tournaments. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm just glad my son made a select team that travels and plays the BEST competition all the time.
Grandslam what team does your son play on?
Lineshot, my son is on the Seminoles. This will be his first full season on the team. We're really looking forward to this upcoming season. It's a very good team. Last year we played on a good local team, but really wanted to play for a good program and against the best competition available. The Sems provide that. We played in Florida and Las Vegas last fall. The Las Vegas tournament was great competition and my son felt honored to play on the same field with and against so many good players. I agree with Rebel222 in that the Diamondbacks will also be a very good team. Although atleast in Illinois it looks like the Diamondbacks and Sparks will be our best competition. I've heard alot of good things about the Junior Olympics and I'm glad our team is taken the challenge and will be playing in this 16u tournament. Coach Russ, always puts the Seminoles in the toughest tournaments, and I've always respected their team and schedule each and every year. At our last practice the coaching staff made a joke, and told me and my son. See if you can't beat us then join us. It was funny, and we both laughed. My older nephew played so called "elite" travel ball at this age group about 5 years ago, and I think the teams, and top players are so far ahead of the game at this time. Travel ball is at an all time high. I'm proud our family is apart of it. I meant no disrespect to certain varsity teams. I hope my son's playing varsity, if not this year then maybe next year. It's just I've seen so many strong players at this level and there's a few teams that will really shine this year. Our team should be one of them. Also, to Sulltiger it's ok to disagree and I respect your opinion as I'm sure you respect mine. That's what makes this board so interesting.
I do like the give and take going on here. Grandslam...sorry but I guess I lump you and Behindtheplate and a couple of others together...seem to have the same perspective. I did re-read your post and you did qualify your remarks so to some degree I agree that "certain" u-15 travel teams could and probably would defeat most Freshman HS Teams, and "certain" Sophomore Teams as well.
Fastball, I agreed with alot of Behind The Plates statements, but I disagreed with a post or two of his as well. That's whats good about this site. I said the top travel teams would in most all cases defeat all freshman and sophomore teams. That seems very obvious. Anyways, I think another good point to bring up is, it really depends what HS you go to in respect to moving players up. My sons school hardly ever moves up Freshman players to even the Sophomore level. Then there's some schools that move up their freshman up to sophomore right away. The freshman season will be average, but the key is to keep working hard on your skills. When May comes around the top baseball will begin to be played, and that's what I'm really looking forward to. These big time travel tournaments. I think good travel teams playing good competition will really help those players have a good varsity career also when that time comes.
Grandslam,
Good points. What high school district does your son attend?
Good points. What high school district does your son attend?
Reggie...where do you go to school?
Grandslam, I figured your son was on a very good team considering the way you were talking. You make some very good points. Good luck to your son and the Seminoles team in participating in the 16u Junior Olympics and the Perfect Game World Series. I think one of the most impressive things about the Seminoles and coach Gangler is the ability their program has to draw so many top teams from all around the country to Illinois for their tournament. The current list updated on TBS shows top teams from Florida, Ohio, and many other states that are entered in their tournament. They'll probably have more top out of state teams at their Memorial Weekend tournament than Caba will have in August for the World Series. This tournament was very well run, with great competition last year also. The Seminoles Slugest and the TBS Tournament I think the following week will both be two of the top 15u tourneys in the country in 06. Being from Illinois, I'm very impressed to see teams from Florida, Ohio, Arizona, and other states traveling to play in a top Illinois teams tournament. I think it's great for our state, and really helps all the Illinois teams that get to play these out of state teams in this tournament.
I'm looking forward to seeing that Florida Select team and the Georgia Roadrunners play in this tournament!
Fastball - Re-read my last post. If you would like to call that "backtracking quite a bit" or "giving and taking" so be it. Are you the "Doctor Phil" of the message board? The Frazier Crane of High School Baseball? Let's let this rest and move on. I'll say it again. THERE ARE SOME NATIONALLY RANKED 15U TRAVEL TEAMS THAT WOULD BE VERY COMPETITIVE AGAINST MOST HIGH SCHOOL VARSITY TEAMS. There it is. Send it to the presses. After you remove the cream of the crop from the Varsity team list, the competitiveness drops off substantially. That's just the way it is. JMO! Especially when you get into the smaller schools. Now, just for you Fastball, I will add this little diddy. THE TOP VARSITY HIGH SCHOOL TEAMS WOULD LIKELY PUT A WHOOPIN ON MOST 15U TRAVEL TEAMS. See! There's that give and take, Phil. And lsc59, look up any of the nationally ranked teams' schedules listed on USASPortsrankings.com and tell me that competition within their age group is "minimal".
Actually more like Oprah.
Behind the Plate
Its irresponsible to make comments like that without having any kind of tangible evidence to back it up. 15 year old travel teams do not ( as far as i know ) play against varsity competition. To come on the board and try to speculate how a travel team would compete against them is just plain silly . What exactly are you basing your comments on ? The simple fact is this...these two groups never play each other . How do you know what would happen ?
Its irresponsible to make comments like that without having any kind of tangible evidence to back it up. 15 year old travel teams do not ( as far as i know ) play against varsity competition. To come on the board and try to speculate how a travel team would compete against them is just plain silly . What exactly are you basing your comments on ? The simple fact is this...these two groups never play each other . How do you know what would happen ?
Rebel, thanks it's going to be a great season for baseball. Our teams schedule is packed with entering all the best tournaments, and hosting one of the top tournaments also. We're really looking forward to it.
Behindtheplate, you said it yourself. The topic and everyone's opinion has been expressed. Time to move on!