Wow, I am wondering when this thread took a turn and hopefully not because of a simple congrats I made to a son of a member of the community. Funny thing I have never met the player or the father and I don't even have a Freshman. It was just that I met the older brother at a game the night before and the next morning picked up the paper and while reading the linescores I saw his name and it is just a natual thing for me to take notice and send out a congrats. If my post is the reason, forgive me, wait..........no I forgive those that have lost site of what is truly important.......
This message board is about helping each other, at least that is what I came here for. It is about learning something from those with either knowledge, experience or both, it is about support for those that are needing help either due to a players injury, slump, tryout anxiety or moving to the next level and needing direction. Isn't it?
When does saying a player that is talented enough to be recognized as a Freshman or Soph. such a "bad" thing. No one said, hey which Freshman is the next Barry Bonds out there? Who is the next Roger Clemmons? Did they?
You see I do not have a son that would ever be mentioned on here as a "player to watch", but I congratulate and support those players that are doing well today and will be doing even better hopefully tomorrow. I look for names of players from other schools and when we play those schools it is cool to pick them out, feel like you kinda already know them and see what they are all about. It makes the game that much more entertaining and more of a learning experience. I tell my son, hey so and so is on that team check him and see what he is about. And if that player has a great game then maybe my son will learn something and give him something, on his level to compare to.
I would have never known about A. Jackson, Preston P., S. Tolleson, or A. Luna (sorry for mentioning names I was told you can't do that but everyone knows them and it was a positive comment)3 years ago if I hadn't read about them here as someone to watch. It has been fun to see if they are continuing to grow as a player. And if someone is listed today and isn't heard of in a year or two don't we all wonder what happened?
What about those HSBB member's who's sons are Juniors or Seniors don't we look at them and take notice and wonder what the future holds for them? What is the difference?
Heaven forbid that any of the mentioned players on this thread experience an injury that would slow them down. And then what about losing focus that can happen because you have family issues, grade issues, girlfriend problems, coaching problems and yes it can happen because you have reached your carrott to early and because either the player/coach or parent does not know how to put more carrotts out there.......
Shouldn't we as a baseball community support those that are doing well, guide those that want to do well and be there for those that fail.
And in thinking, someday, Ken, you might have a son in High School and he might be someone that people take notice of as a Freshman, and I would imagine that you will be that proud papa, like these dad's/mom's here just as I am sure your father was of you. You are a great coach, a motiviator amongst your players but parents will always be the proudest and the ones that the son's will go to in the end......
Oldbat - I couldn't have said it better myself.
Oldbat,
After reading your last post, I can definately see a different point of view. Especially through the eyes of a parent. I can respect the fact that parents will always want to know where their kid mixes in with some of the best at their age group.
I guess I am guilty in looking into this topic from a coaches angle rather than a parents. This is where I need to expand my thought process when posting some of my opinions.
The question was asked...When do we start talking about kids?
This question is where my coaches point of view and opinions may be drastically different than a parents. I think comparing players at an early age is a delicate situation in many different aspects. One, who knows where these kids will be physically or mentally in years to come. Second, why put added pressure on a youngster or parent when all that really matters is helping this player become the best he can be rather as good or better than another.
Comparing players happens at all levels. Every year articles are written on where high school players rank in ability. Because of this, there is a tendency to take what we read or hear as gospel. My suggestion is this, look at your list of "top players" and follow them for 4-6 years. I will garauntee that your list will go from 100 players to 2 or 3.
This is where I go back to this point...Most of what we think is important now is a little white speck on top of chicken.........(you know the rest)
I think we as adults, can certainly channel our thoughts and actions towards something more productive than rating high school freshman.
Yes this board is put in place for opinions and such, but is this the best we can do? If it is, maybe someone was right in saying "if you don't like it, don't read it". But If I ignored everything I didn't like I believe I would be a lesser man because of it.
After reading your last post, I can definately see a different point of view. Especially through the eyes of a parent. I can respect the fact that parents will always want to know where their kid mixes in with some of the best at their age group.
I guess I am guilty in looking into this topic from a coaches angle rather than a parents. This is where I need to expand my thought process when posting some of my opinions.
The question was asked...When do we start talking about kids?
This question is where my coaches point of view and opinions may be drastically different than a parents. I think comparing players at an early age is a delicate situation in many different aspects. One, who knows where these kids will be physically or mentally in years to come. Second, why put added pressure on a youngster or parent when all that really matters is helping this player become the best he can be rather as good or better than another.
Comparing players happens at all levels. Every year articles are written on where high school players rank in ability. Because of this, there is a tendency to take what we read or hear as gospel. My suggestion is this, look at your list of "top players" and follow them for 4-6 years. I will garauntee that your list will go from 100 players to 2 or 3.
This is where I go back to this point...Most of what we think is important now is a little white speck on top of chicken.........(you know the rest)
I think we as adults, can certainly channel our thoughts and actions towards something more productive than rating high school freshman.
Yes this board is put in place for opinions and such, but is this the best we can do? If it is, maybe someone was right in saying "if you don't like it, don't read it". But If I ignored everything I didn't like I believe I would be a lesser man because of it.
Dirtbag,
thanks!
thanks!
Ken,
Rating and comparing is human nature. Think about plastic surgery, the need to be better, thinner, younger it even happens to us adults.
From the time a child is born there is comparison. What did your child weigh, how long was he/she. Then when did they walk, talk, spit up in a public place.........
Then on to school, are they in the accelerated program or basic, did they make national honor society and so on..........
Personally I think comparing can be hurtful and helpful. If it is used in a positive and as a means to motivate or to settle someone down then it is constructive.
The only aspect of this thread that bothered me was the "ranking" of a Freshman. The only true way, in my opinion is if you are looking at stats of the players in the same enviornment/against the same teams, otherwise they are not true/accurate.
If we are just saying these are players to mention/congratulate as Freshman no harm done.......
And I too appreciate both sides of these discussions from the parents and from the coaches and of course from those parent-coaches that have been on both sides.
Keep up the success Ken..........on the field and with your dogs (if you are still doing that)..........maybe our paths will cross again and if so I owe you a Starbucks.
ONE LAST THING: I just noticed this thread has had over 4,000 views either people are interested in this banter or there is a lot of interest in Freshman players. Makes one think?
Rating and comparing is human nature. Think about plastic surgery, the need to be better, thinner, younger it even happens to us adults.
From the time a child is born there is comparison. What did your child weigh, how long was he/she. Then when did they walk, talk, spit up in a public place.........
Then on to school, are they in the accelerated program or basic, did they make national honor society and so on..........
Personally I think comparing can be hurtful and helpful. If it is used in a positive and as a means to motivate or to settle someone down then it is constructive.
The only aspect of this thread that bothered me was the "ranking" of a Freshman. The only true way, in my opinion is if you are looking at stats of the players in the same enviornment/against the same teams, otherwise they are not true/accurate.
If we are just saying these are players to mention/congratulate as Freshman no harm done.......
And I too appreciate both sides of these discussions from the parents and from the coaches and of course from those parent-coaches that have been on both sides.
Keep up the success Ken..........on the field and with your dogs (if you are still doing that)..........maybe our paths will cross again and if so I owe you a Starbucks.
ONE LAST THING: I just noticed this thread has had over 4,000 views either people are interested in this banter or there is a lot of interest in Freshman players. Makes one think?
Ken, when you compared a DBat 16 year old Sophomore to a certain Denton Ryan center fielder on this board a few months back; that was OK?
I am a DBAT fan -- I welcome Ken's participation -- he has a unique point-of-view. And sure, there are "better" topics -- so, someone start one! 
This one has run it's course -- we haven't talked abot kids in 2 pages of posts.....everyone is afraid to now.
The fact remains that there was little, if any, player comparison here. Most posts simply mentioned strong freshmen players and where they are playing. There were 2 posts that I recall that "rated" players, but it was more like...."if I were a GM, I'd start my team with _______" ---- I continue to think that people are interested in those ideas. Aaron Luna or Austin Jackson? Craig Italiano or Sean Tolleson? Coach Collins or Coach Allen? Huh? Choosing one is not a slap at the other, is it?
In my opinion, the topic took a turn for the worse when people started to feel like the discussion was useless, a waste of time, or otherwise "harmful" in some way to these players. I feel confident that none of these guys will lose sleep because "that over-the-hill PantherDad didn't mention me!"
Ken, as you say, HS players are "rated" numerous times -- too much? -- perhaps. BA, PG, Area Code, yadda, yadda.....the least of our concerns should be whether Kirk picked PantherSon as an '08 to watch. But people are interested -- even people without kids in HS. Other coaches may be interested. Summer coaches may be interested.
I learned that it's foolish (just stupid) to throw Brandon Loy a fastball in -- it will land in another time zone! That may save my '08 an embarassing moment some day.
Peace!
Oh, and go Panthers.
This one has run it's course -- we haven't talked abot kids in 2 pages of posts.....everyone is afraid to now. The fact remains that there was little, if any, player comparison here. Most posts simply mentioned strong freshmen players and where they are playing. There were 2 posts that I recall that "rated" players, but it was more like...."if I were a GM, I'd start my team with _______" ---- I continue to think that people are interested in those ideas. Aaron Luna or Austin Jackson? Craig Italiano or Sean Tolleson? Coach Collins or Coach Allen? Huh? Choosing one is not a slap at the other, is it?
In my opinion, the topic took a turn for the worse when people started to feel like the discussion was useless, a waste of time, or otherwise "harmful" in some way to these players. I feel confident that none of these guys will lose sleep because "that over-the-hill PantherDad didn't mention me!"
Ken, as you say, HS players are "rated" numerous times -- too much? -- perhaps. BA, PG, Area Code, yadda, yadda.....the least of our concerns should be whether Kirk picked PantherSon as an '08 to watch. But people are interested -- even people without kids in HS. Other coaches may be interested. Summer coaches may be interested.
I learned that it's foolish (just stupid) to throw Brandon Loy a fastball in -- it will land in another time zone! That may save my '08 an embarassing moment some day.
Peace!
Oh, and go Panthers.
Jerry Ford of Perfect Game is compiling information on 05's through 08's. Baseball America and Prospects Plus rank players in lists for people to read. It is a fact and it happens. Regardless of how one thinks about it, it is there for all to see.
College coaches put rankings in the bios of the players to justify their choices.
Whether we like it or not it is here to stay and getting bigger.
The proliferation of PG and BA in todays scouting is having a dramatic impact. Full time scouts have dropped by 50% since 2001.(From a post on another site about mlb scouts; "clubs cutting back from over 450 scouts in 2001 to almost 210 scouts,") That is ahuge drop. Why? Many believe that huge showcase tournaments and showcase events are the reason why. Many believe that the scouts are no longer looking in the bushes. MLB teams are saving money, college guys can scout 100 players at a time. They are changing the way the game is from 6 years ago even.
So as distasteful as it is, it is here to stay and we better learn to deal with it. Burying your head in the sand and poo pooing it will not help.
That is why so many are making sure they are on tournament teams that are going to WWBA events or that the coach lets some of the players leave the team for a couple of weekends to go to large showcases. It is changing the landscape. Players are less interested in winng and more in being "seen". I think it a shame, but it is here.
jmo
College coaches put rankings in the bios of the players to justify their choices.
Whether we like it or not it is here to stay and getting bigger.
The proliferation of PG and BA in todays scouting is having a dramatic impact. Full time scouts have dropped by 50% since 2001.(From a post on another site about mlb scouts; "clubs cutting back from over 450 scouts in 2001 to almost 210 scouts,") That is ahuge drop. Why? Many believe that huge showcase tournaments and showcase events are the reason why. Many believe that the scouts are no longer looking in the bushes. MLB teams are saving money, college guys can scout 100 players at a time. They are changing the way the game is from 6 years ago even.
So as distasteful as it is, it is here to stay and we better learn to deal with it. Burying your head in the sand and poo pooing it will not help.
That is why so many are making sure they are on tournament teams that are going to WWBA events or that the coach lets some of the players leave the team for a couple of weekends to go to large showcases. It is changing the landscape. Players are less interested in winng and more in being "seen". I think it a shame, but it is here.
jmo
quote:Originally posted by mckinneylions:
who are considered the top freshman in the dfw area?
Since the name Colton Cain was mentioned I will comment..He lives just behind me so I know this young man well..He has a body that is beyond his years and at 6'3" and in the 8th grade he still has room to grow..His fastball just reached the 90 mph range and he has the off-speed to match..The kid can also hit and I mean long balls..I am sure coach Webb will move him up early next year and yes he has control..His Father has brought him along very well
MDS
quote:Originally posted by honest and unbiased:
No I am not saying Tanner should be playing on Varsity at Southlake. I just think Tanner should be included in the list of these players based on select ball performance. I do know and have followed each and every one of these kids and am very familiar with their talent level.
What I meant by popularity is popularity amoung students (ie being a stud athlete). I think many high school coaches have a number of agendas depending on the school. There are some freshmen playing varsity ball in the metroplex, at schools when in fact there are more talented players on that school's JV team.
My point was that just because a kid is playing varsity as a freshman doesn't necessarily make him that good. Some people seem to think that if a kid is playing as a freshman then he must be better than all of the other freshmen, sophmores, juniors, and seniors at his school not playing. I'm saying that this is certainly not true.
The real test come in the summer. Take a look at these kids, see which ones play at the highest level against the elite teams in their age group and up, how many lead there teams to championships, etc. Ask yourself if you had one choice in the 15 year old select age group who would you want:
a) In the batters box with the game on the line
b) On the mound with the game on the line
c) The field the ball with the game on the line
d) As a guest player with your team for a tournament
e) not to face as a hitter against your team with the game on the line
f) not to face as a pitcher with the game on the line
While we are at it throw in Kevin Diehl, Tant Shepherd, and Chris Slater in the mix when making your decisions as even though they are sophmores they are still able to play 15u on the select circuit.
Usually if a Freshman is on the Varsity it will be a positional player that is just better than what the coach has seen on the varsity/Jv..Now a pitcher moving up from Freshman to Varsity would have to be far beyond his age and has probably played in several older age leagues..I don't completely agree with that move as I feel that emotional experience plays an important part in developing a player especially a pitcher..
Smitty -- "90mph range"? Are you reporting that he has been clocked at 90 on a legitimate radar gun? If so, wow! I know Colten and his family and I agree that he has great potential. From my perspective, I hope he has a chance to pitch from 60.5 this summer, despite throwing for a 14 yr old team -- it will help him with the adjustment next year.
quote:Originally posted by Panther Dad:
Smitty -- "90mph range"? Are you reporting that he has been clocked at 90 on a legitimate radar gun? If so, wow! I know Colten and his family and I agree that he has great potential. From my perspective, I hope he has a chance to pitch from 60.5 this summer, despite throwing for a 14 yr old team -- it will help him with the adjustment next year.
Yes from what I was told(not a witness) he hit 90 on gun....Now I don't know the conditions etc..You know my nephew Ryan Anderson was so similar to Colten at that age--left hand pitcher good stuff and could hit---but like Colten he wanted to play football also..Well you know football coaches they see big body and they want to fill it up..They bulked him to 260 lbs or so and he played defense and offense on the line..Even tho he made all district from both sides it hurt his baseball..Just too big..I certainly hope that Colten's Dad can keep him from falling into this pit..I have told Colten that if he just had to play to stay at QB or at least not on the line..
I also hope he gets to pitch off the higher mound and distance as it can be a problem mentally if nothing else..
Where are they now? The list on the dallasblog reminded me of a list from a few years ago. It would be interesting to have an update on where these kids are today. It also is interesting to see that some of the same posters were touting the youth back then are ones trying to say the youth of today can't compete!