Maybe an honest mistake. There are some who talk very tough but, when banned for good reason, slink back like jackals. Something to do with a personality dissorder IMO. Anyway, it seems rather childish.
I've always respected the way that board was run. Perhaps you should try again and see if the error has been corrected. Give the board another chance, they're just trying to police it and keep one or two trolls away.
You'll probably get much better info at this site than at BBF.
OK, I can't stand it anymore. I always thought I knew something about the swing and the kinetics of it. Now, I'm not so sure.
Hand vs. Hand, push this way, pull that way....I think alot of folks are trying to say the same thing but are getting hung up on semantics.
Exactly what is torque and when does it happen? How is it accomplished, exactly? I've read Mankin and his THT and BHT but for an engineer, he does a very poor job explaining it. That, and too pompous to read for long.
Alot of what I hear of "torque" can't be torque as the action described is linear or a straight line force/movement. In no way, shape or form is torque a straight line movement. Period.
The word torque means a rotational or turning force being applied. Pulling and pushing of hands against each other ain't torque...maybe both hands applying a lever action to the bat in opposite directions, but not torque in itself unless a rotational action takes place caused by the lever action (that means the bat would have to rotate in you hands while the lever action is being applied. maybe, but doubtful just through a lever action).
Torque also implies a storage or release of energy (think of twisting a spring in the direction to tighten the coils= stored energy waiting to be released occurs) when applied to an object.
For true torque to be beneficial in a baseball swing, untorquing ( No,I don't know if that is a word or not) must take place at some point during the swing. Where, when and how?
Here's my take (get your bow and arrows out)....
Yes, I do believe torque takes place in a swing (can actually take place intially before the swing starts) and aids in cocking the bat ( some might call it tipping)and that torque aids in reducing wrapping the bat barrel ( barrel actually dropping behind the head during the stride/load to where it points out at the ss/pitcher). This torque in the hands also helps a hitter adjust to various pitch planes. The torque is released as the front elbow works it's way up and the top hand is working it's way under the bat as the swing/bat approaches the hitting the zone. Phase 1 of torque can be a conscious movement but Phase 2 (release) is not.
Simply put, look at MLB hitter's hands as they stride/create seperation....look at the bottom hand/wrist. Is flat, convex ( wrist is broken so that back of hand faces in general direction of pitcher) or concave? Nearly all will be convex to some degree... ( torque has taken place in the hands).
Exercise...hold a bat with the bottom hnad flat (no angle from hand to forearm). Have the label facing you. Note the relative angle to your forearm. Now bend your wrist in a convex direction. Look at the label and the change in relative angle to your forearm.
You have done and gone torqued a bat. If your swing is any good at all, you'll release the torque just before hitting the ball. If your swing isn't too good, wear a batting helmet.
Not all players apply the same amount of initial torque....some have a somewhat flatter bottom wrist during the stride. They tend not to tip the bat much as they stride either. Essentially, less an emphasis on hand action and more on rotation of the core/body. Never, ever concave wrist position.
That all, folks. My fingers are cramping so I gotta go pound some Gatorade.
I just put my "Apple of Torque" on my head...shoot away.
Hand vs. Hand, push this way, pull that way....I think alot of folks are trying to say the same thing but are getting hung up on semantics.
Exactly what is torque and when does it happen? How is it accomplished, exactly? I've read Mankin and his THT and BHT but for an engineer, he does a very poor job explaining it. That, and too pompous to read for long.
Alot of what I hear of "torque" can't be torque as the action described is linear or a straight line force/movement. In no way, shape or form is torque a straight line movement. Period.
The word torque means a rotational or turning force being applied. Pulling and pushing of hands against each other ain't torque...maybe both hands applying a lever action to the bat in opposite directions, but not torque in itself unless a rotational action takes place caused by the lever action (that means the bat would have to rotate in you hands while the lever action is being applied. maybe, but doubtful just through a lever action).
Torque also implies a storage or release of energy (think of twisting a spring in the direction to tighten the coils= stored energy waiting to be released occurs) when applied to an object.
For true torque to be beneficial in a baseball swing, untorquing ( No,I don't know if that is a word or not) must take place at some point during the swing. Where, when and how?
Here's my take (get your bow and arrows out)....
Yes, I do believe torque takes place in a swing (can actually take place intially before the swing starts) and aids in cocking the bat ( some might call it tipping)and that torque aids in reducing wrapping the bat barrel ( barrel actually dropping behind the head during the stride/load to where it points out at the ss/pitcher). This torque in the hands also helps a hitter adjust to various pitch planes. The torque is released as the front elbow works it's way up and the top hand is working it's way under the bat as the swing/bat approaches the hitting the zone. Phase 1 of torque can be a conscious movement but Phase 2 (release) is not.
Simply put, look at MLB hitter's hands as they stride/create seperation....look at the bottom hand/wrist. Is flat, convex ( wrist is broken so that back of hand faces in general direction of pitcher) or concave? Nearly all will be convex to some degree... ( torque has taken place in the hands).
Exercise...hold a bat with the bottom hnad flat (no angle from hand to forearm). Have the label facing you. Note the relative angle to your forearm. Now bend your wrist in a convex direction. Look at the label and the change in relative angle to your forearm.
You have done and gone torqued a bat. If your swing is any good at all, you'll release the torque just before hitting the ball. If your swing isn't too good, wear a batting helmet.
Not all players apply the same amount of initial torque....some have a somewhat flatter bottom wrist during the stride. They tend not to tip the bat much as they stride either. Essentially, less an emphasis on hand action and more on rotation of the core/body. Never, ever concave wrist position.
That all, folks. My fingers are cramping so I gotta go pound some Gatorade.
I just put my "Apple of Torque" on my head...shoot away.
It is my contention that too much is attempted to be explained in a good swing.
In the load when arms are raised and bent, the triceps are stretched as much as possible. In the 'go' or 'fire', the simultaneous combination of movement (weight shift, hip turn and tricep flex) propel the bat in a linear fashion. The hands act as a fulcrum and in maintaining string tension. The laws of centripetal accelleration come into play once the bat is set in motion.
Any conscious muscle control after 'go' or 'fire' will negate the benefits.
In the load when arms are raised and bent, the triceps are stretched as much as possible. In the 'go' or 'fire', the simultaneous combination of movement (weight shift, hip turn and tricep flex) propel the bat in a linear fashion. The hands act as a fulcrum and in maintaining string tension. The laws of centripetal accelleration come into play once the bat is set in motion.
Any conscious muscle control after 'go' or 'fire' will negate the benefits.
Quincy,
Your contention is dead on....
..then you had to go throw in that centripetal thing. Aww man.
Your contention is dead on....
..then you had to go throw in that centripetal thing. Aww man.
Centripetal accelleration is the key to bat speed. Once started in motion, the arms do not propel the bat but merely maintain direction while the hands maintain string tension.
Centripetal accelleration is what causes the 'wrist uncocking'. It is not caused by hand manipulation.
I usually give the cue that batters relax after initial thrust.
I would appreciate your view as to what causes the bat to continue to gain speed in the swing.
Centripetal accelleration is what causes the 'wrist uncocking'. It is not caused by hand manipulation.
I usually give the cue that batters relax after initial thrust.
I would appreciate your view as to what causes the bat to continue to gain speed in the swing.
S. Abrams -
Bluedog is describing and illustrating things well.
I think it helps to have a swing model for analysis that has several levels, including a mechanical level, a biomechanical level and a sequential joint motion or kinesiological level.
The most important factors at a biomechanical level, for example, would be soft tissue elasticity muscular force production working on the skeletal framework creating what is measured by motionanalysis as the dynamics of shoulder to hip separation or x-factor and x-factor stretch which measures the twist/load of the torso.
Kinesiological sequence and synch are a long discussion, probably pompous too.
Mechanically, Mankin is very good separating out the torque and CHP components. CHP is just connection via a swing radius that does not lengthen analagous to ball on string type action.
Also important mechanically is the kinetic chain/kinetic link/summation of levers/summation of velocity which is the powering of the swing by whipping/conservation of angular momentum, the framework on whcih the x-factor/x-factor stretch works. Momentum transfer is also driectional since the velocity component of momentum is a vector.
Ball on string (what Mankin calls Circular Handpath or CHP)works for the bat, but in addition, the bat can be influenced (even controlled) by torquing the handle which Mankin sorts out using a steering wheel device.
***** tried to look for/disprove handle torque and actually ended up demonstrating that "reactive" handle torque DOES exist related to "just holding the bat" with the top hand while the shoulders turn.
The more the back arm weighs, the more the handle is torqued and the quicker the bat is accelerated to max batspeed.
Now the question becomes, can torque be consciously applied and how. I think it can and IS and is a KEY to the quickness and early batspeed and late plane adjustment of the MLB swing. A center of rotation is set up between the hands as the location of the pitch is being recognized and before the shoulders move.
Here is a link to Mankin's description of *****'s model and a link to the model if you are interested.
http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/92831.html
Bluedog is describing and illustrating things well.
I think it helps to have a swing model for analysis that has several levels, including a mechanical level, a biomechanical level and a sequential joint motion or kinesiological level.
The most important factors at a biomechanical level, for example, would be soft tissue elasticity muscular force production working on the skeletal framework creating what is measured by motionanalysis as the dynamics of shoulder to hip separation or x-factor and x-factor stretch which measures the twist/load of the torso.
Kinesiological sequence and synch are a long discussion, probably pompous too.
Mechanically, Mankin is very good separating out the torque and CHP components. CHP is just connection via a swing radius that does not lengthen analagous to ball on string type action.
Also important mechanically is the kinetic chain/kinetic link/summation of levers/summation of velocity which is the powering of the swing by whipping/conservation of angular momentum, the framework on whcih the x-factor/x-factor stretch works. Momentum transfer is also driectional since the velocity component of momentum is a vector.
Ball on string (what Mankin calls Circular Handpath or CHP)works for the bat, but in addition, the bat can be influenced (even controlled) by torquing the handle which Mankin sorts out using a steering wheel device.
***** tried to look for/disprove handle torque and actually ended up demonstrating that "reactive" handle torque DOES exist related to "just holding the bat" with the top hand while the shoulders turn.
The more the back arm weighs, the more the handle is torqued and the quicker the bat is accelerated to max batspeed.
Now the question becomes, can torque be consciously applied and how. I think it can and IS and is a KEY to the quickness and early batspeed and late plane adjustment of the MLB swing. A center of rotation is set up between the hands as the location of the pitch is being recognized and before the shoulders move.
Here is a link to Mankin's description of *****'s model and a link to the model if you are interested.
http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/92831.html
I am curious as to how the conservation of angular momentum could cause an increase in accelleration if there is no decrease in the radius of the swing.
For this to be true, the bat would have to be drawn closer to the center of axis throughout the swing.
This is not the case in the swing.
For this to be true, the bat would have to be drawn closer to the center of axis throughout the swing.
This is not the case in the swing.
Quincy -
The longer the radius of the "CHP" the quicker the momentum is sucked out of the turning torso by ball on string type mechanical action.
You could also think of this as a 2 piece whip of 2 levers or a "double pendulum" where the first pendulum would be the torso mass/momentum connected to a fixed lead arm, fixed at the shoulder and elbow so that the "hinge" betwen the two pendulums is the lead wrist.
In general, momentum transfer with conservation of momentum means that smaller mass segments speed up a lot when larger mass segments decelerate as long as there is adequate "alignment".
If the hands are indeed fixed to the torso as described above, then they would follow a CHP as the torso turns and decelerates. Prior to this the hips have turned and the torso twisted, then momentum transfer also works its way up the torso as the hips decelerate to acelerate the untwisting of the torso.
Once the cenetr of mass of the bat gets out of the arc of this handpath circle, then the "self -feeding" or amplifying transfer of momentum accelerates the bat as long as the handpath radius is not lengthened.
This transfer will speed up if the handpath is lessened ( what N-Yman calls momentum/inertia transformer "step up").
The transfer will also "step up" if torque is being applied at the handle to force the bathead out faster. This is easier if you have established a center of rotation between the hands as a "running start".
But then you have to believe in handle torque.
The longer the radius of the "CHP" the quicker the momentum is sucked out of the turning torso by ball on string type mechanical action.
You could also think of this as a 2 piece whip of 2 levers or a "double pendulum" where the first pendulum would be the torso mass/momentum connected to a fixed lead arm, fixed at the shoulder and elbow so that the "hinge" betwen the two pendulums is the lead wrist.
In general, momentum transfer with conservation of momentum means that smaller mass segments speed up a lot when larger mass segments decelerate as long as there is adequate "alignment".
If the hands are indeed fixed to the torso as described above, then they would follow a CHP as the torso turns and decelerates. Prior to this the hips have turned and the torso twisted, then momentum transfer also works its way up the torso as the hips decelerate to acelerate the untwisting of the torso.
Once the cenetr of mass of the bat gets out of the arc of this handpath circle, then the "self -feeding" or amplifying transfer of momentum accelerates the bat as long as the handpath radius is not lengthened.
This transfer will speed up if the handpath is lessened ( what N-Yman calls momentum/inertia transformer "step up").
The transfer will also "step up" if torque is being applied at the handle to force the bathead out faster. This is easier if you have established a center of rotation between the hands as a "running start".
But then you have to believe in handle torque.
You are describing accelleration away from the axis.
The principle of conservation of angular momentum increases speed by decreasing the radius.
Conservation of angular momentum as a batting style would produce what is commonly referred to as a spinner.
The principle of conservation of angular momentum increases speed by decreasing the radius.
Conservation of angular momentum as a batting style would produce what is commonly referred to as a spinner.
I was pounding Gatorade until the last couple of postings.
I got lost at "Bluedog is...."
Being that men don't ask for directions, I'm changing the Gatorade to Budweisers.
"The ankle bone is connected to the shinbone, the shinbone is connected to the kneebone, the kneebone is connected to the thighbone...." train of thought might work. Think freight train instead of bullet train when explaining stuff to ballplayers/coaches.
Maybe a GPS will help. And another 6-pack.
I got lost at "Bluedog is...."
Being that men don't ask for directions, I'm changing the Gatorade to Budweisers.
"The ankle bone is connected to the shinbone, the shinbone is connected to the kneebone, the kneebone is connected to the thighbone...." train of thought might work. Think freight train instead of bullet train when explaining stuff to ballplayers/coaches.
Maybe a GPS will help. And another 6-pack.
It's easier and more effective to just tell players not to use their biceps in the swing.
Kids and coaches hear about the conservation of angular momentum when an ice skater is spinning. They figure that the closer they pull in the bat the faster they will swing. Kids are smart.
Explaining the physics or the biological processes of the swing to a player is meaningless. They just want to hit hard and effectively.
Kids and coaches hear about the conservation of angular momentum when an ice skater is spinning. They figure that the closer they pull in the bat the faster they will swing. Kids are smart.
Explaining the physics or the biological processes of the swing to a player is meaningless. They just want to hit hard and effectively.
Quncy-
Momentum transfer is important whether you are spinning or not.
Ideally you segment more/stretch and fire or store and fire more segmentally/sequentially so you can adjust better for hitting as opposed to spinning with "alligator arms" (true CHP).
Momentum transfer is important whether you are spinning or not.
Ideally you segment more/stretch and fire or store and fire more segmentally/sequentially so you can adjust better for hitting as opposed to spinning with "alligator arms" (true CHP).
The issue is not momentum. The issue is accelleration.
Momentum is constant by definition.
Try swinging a bat as if you were using all the power generated to throw the bat at the base on the foul line in front of you and then relax and let the swing happen.
You may have the capability to video the swing as you promote it and the swing as I am describing. See which one allows greater bat speed as well as better balance and control.
Momentum is constant by definition.
Try swinging a bat as if you were using all the power generated to throw the bat at the base on the foul line in front of you and then relax and let the swing happen.
You may have the capability to video the swing as you promote it and the swing as I am describing. See which one allows greater bat speed as well as better balance and control.
Tom,
You're right that Bluedog and Wayback do a good job explaining things. Actually do a much better job than Mankin does on explaining torque on the video ( Jack's "torque" isn't truly torque but lever/fulcrum in nature).
Totally disagree with Mankin about his "torque" in starting the swing. In golf that is called swinging from the top; causing a loss in clubhead speed. Casting is another term. I agree with Mankin that this torque happens early and well before contact, but not to intiate the swing.
What Mankin thinks of as torque has been around forever. Flat hand snap was used for years to demonstrate what Jack refers to as torque.
Mmankin needs a writer to get his ideas across in the videos. Most of his stuff isn't too bad, just poorly explained.
You're right that Bluedog and Wayback do a good job explaining things. Actually do a much better job than Mankin does on explaining torque on the video ( Jack's "torque" isn't truly torque but lever/fulcrum in nature).
Totally disagree with Mankin about his "torque" in starting the swing. In golf that is called swinging from the top; causing a loss in clubhead speed. Casting is another term. I agree with Mankin that this torque happens early and well before contact, but not to intiate the swing.
What Mankin thinks of as torque has been around forever. Flat hand snap was used for years to demonstrate what Jack refers to as torque.
Mmankin needs a writer to get his ideas across in the videos. Most of his stuff isn't too bad, just poorly explained.
Endorsing the lever/fulcrum nature of the swing is not commercially viable.
Endorsing Newton's Second Law as the secret to the swing being promoted would hinder legal ownership of the method.
For this reason 'gimmick terms' or 'gimmick products' are endorsed as the grail.
I always notice this when I see the term 'angular momentum' promoted as the reasoning for the endorsed swing method.
One day the instructors will come to realize that the less that is explained on an anatomical basis in the swing the better.
But then, that can't be trade marked or copyrighted.
Endorsing Newton's Second Law as the secret to the swing being promoted would hinder legal ownership of the method.
For this reason 'gimmick terms' or 'gimmick products' are endorsed as the grail.
I always notice this when I see the term 'angular momentum' promoted as the reasoning for the endorsed swing method.
One day the instructors will come to realize that the less that is explained on an anatomical basis in the swing the better.
But then, that can't be trade marked or copyrighted.
quote:But then, that can't be trade marked or copyrighted.
Then so be it.
Quincy, good point, good post.
Exactamundo....
If you can't be original. baffle 'em with $%$#%
Old idea...new packaging
If you can't be original. baffle 'em with $%$#%
Old idea...new packaging
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
One day the instructors will come to realize that the less that is explained on an anatomical basis in the swing the better.
Quincy, I understand the intent of your post. However, IMO, an instructor/coach/parent needs to do their best to understand these things if they intend to teach their child to be as efficient in the swing process as that child can be. Of course, terminology and transfer of the info has it's own demons. We always break off into various "camps" but the reality is that we all want our children/players to not only know how to swing a bat but the "whys" of what they are doing. JMHO!
S and Q -
Thanks for the posts.
I think Mankin (overall very good) is best on the "mechanics" torque (BHT/THT) and CHP (ball on string) and how they blend.
Less good on biomechanics (xfactor stretch) and kinesiology (esp shoulder tilt vs turn).
Q said:Momentum is constant by definition
>>mechanically we assume a closed system, but BIOmechanically, there is a lot of loss to inefficiency and some gain by soft tissue elasticity and muscle force production.
Q said:Centripetal accelleration is the key to bat speed. Once started in motion, the arms do not propel the bat but merely maintain direction while the hands maintain string tension.
>>The swing is more like a double pendulum than ball on string. Double pendulum is 2 segment or "flail" type whipping with conservation of momentum/momentum transfer. Furthermore, the body can again influence this with soft tissue/muscle action, it is not just a matter of nonlengthening radius/string tension.
Q said:You are describing acceleration away from the axis...The principle of conservation of angular momentum increases speed by decreasing the radius.
>>Acceleration away from axis or with lebnghtening of radius to center of rotation means disconnection and deceleration.
Q said: Centripetal accelleration is what causes the 'wrist uncocking'. It is not caused by hand manipulation.
>>I think what we are seeing in the mlb pattern is mechanically correct to call handle torque which means the hands are transmitting forces that turn the bat about a center between the hands BEFORE the shoulders are active. So this force is somehow generated by the arms/forearms.
This is a running start that turns the bat between the hands WITHOUT uncocking the wrists.
In fact, this torquing of the bat by the upper extremities out of plane as it transitions into the swing plane creates a reactive force that assists in keeping the shoulders and hands back as the hips turn open.
As long as the shoulders do not turn as fast as the hips, the torso is continuing to twist/load.
The ongoing twist/load of the torso is what results in "maintenance of the hinge angle" as golfers describe it. In fact the hinge angle in double pendulum gets VERY narrow before the second pendulum (BAT) is accelerated by the first pendulum.
It is necessary to apply the torquing force to the handle before the torso unloads to drive the bathead to resist narrowing of the hinge angle too much which would slow acceleration(one advantage of running start).
The bathead will trigger momntum transfer out of the turning torso when the center of mass of the bat gets out of the arc of the connected (to the turning torso) handpath which is slightly before the traditional "lag" position where the bat is pointing back at catcher.
Centripetal force assists in uncocking the hands, bottom wrist first only closer to contact as the handpath decelerates and bathead fires.
So biomechanically, the swing is like a double pendulum with the ability to actively apply torque to the handle (without uncocking the wrists)from prior to bathead launch all the way to contact, to assist in direction and degree and timing of loading so unloading is better matched to the pitch location.
Thanks for the posts.
I think Mankin (overall very good) is best on the "mechanics" torque (BHT/THT) and CHP (ball on string) and how they blend.
Less good on biomechanics (xfactor stretch) and kinesiology (esp shoulder tilt vs turn).
Q said:Momentum is constant by definition
>>mechanically we assume a closed system, but BIOmechanically, there is a lot of loss to inefficiency and some gain by soft tissue elasticity and muscle force production.
Q said:Centripetal accelleration is the key to bat speed. Once started in motion, the arms do not propel the bat but merely maintain direction while the hands maintain string tension.
>>The swing is more like a double pendulum than ball on string. Double pendulum is 2 segment or "flail" type whipping with conservation of momentum/momentum transfer. Furthermore, the body can again influence this with soft tissue/muscle action, it is not just a matter of nonlengthening radius/string tension.
Q said:You are describing acceleration away from the axis...The principle of conservation of angular momentum increases speed by decreasing the radius.
>>Acceleration away from axis or with lebnghtening of radius to center of rotation means disconnection and deceleration.
Q said: Centripetal accelleration is what causes the 'wrist uncocking'. It is not caused by hand manipulation.
>>I think what we are seeing in the mlb pattern is mechanically correct to call handle torque which means the hands are transmitting forces that turn the bat about a center between the hands BEFORE the shoulders are active. So this force is somehow generated by the arms/forearms.
This is a running start that turns the bat between the hands WITHOUT uncocking the wrists.
In fact, this torquing of the bat by the upper extremities out of plane as it transitions into the swing plane creates a reactive force that assists in keeping the shoulders and hands back as the hips turn open.
As long as the shoulders do not turn as fast as the hips, the torso is continuing to twist/load.
The ongoing twist/load of the torso is what results in "maintenance of the hinge angle" as golfers describe it. In fact the hinge angle in double pendulum gets VERY narrow before the second pendulum (BAT) is accelerated by the first pendulum.
It is necessary to apply the torquing force to the handle before the torso unloads to drive the bathead to resist narrowing of the hinge angle too much which would slow acceleration(one advantage of running start).
The bathead will trigger momntum transfer out of the turning torso when the center of mass of the bat gets out of the arc of the connected (to the turning torso) handpath which is slightly before the traditional "lag" position where the bat is pointing back at catcher.
Centripetal force assists in uncocking the hands, bottom wrist first only closer to contact as the handpath decelerates and bathead fires.
So biomechanically, the swing is like a double pendulum with the ability to actively apply torque to the handle (without uncocking the wrists)from prior to bathead launch all the way to contact, to assist in direction and degree and timing of loading so unloading is better matched to the pitch location.
When I speak of the wrists uncocking, I refer to the wrists turning just prior to contact. This should be involuntary as the result of bat speed.
When you speak of the double pendulum/double fulcrum you are incorrectly using the conservation of angular momentum as your reasoning for bat speed. A pendulum does not use angular momentum in its movements. A pendulum maintains a constant radius in the swing.
What you may find more apropo would be angular accelleration and centripetal force. This is vastly different. The radius remains constant.
The initial force generated in the swing comes from the triceps. With that initial movement, the first fulcrum effect takes place as the wrists turn the bat in the swing.
Maintaining the circular path allows angular acceleration to take place until the speed doubles (approximately in front of the body).
At this point the bat speed doubles increasing centripetal force by a factor of four causing the wrists to uncock or turn (second fulcrum) as the result of the bat speed allowed to develop.
There is no momentum transfer. There is angular acceleration and centripetal acceleration.
You are using the wrong terminology that leads to a misunderstanding in the forces that dvelop and increase bat speed.
When you speak of the double pendulum/double fulcrum you are incorrectly using the conservation of angular momentum as your reasoning for bat speed. A pendulum does not use angular momentum in its movements. A pendulum maintains a constant radius in the swing.
What you may find more apropo would be angular accelleration and centripetal force. This is vastly different. The radius remains constant.
The initial force generated in the swing comes from the triceps. With that initial movement, the first fulcrum effect takes place as the wrists turn the bat in the swing.
Maintaining the circular path allows angular acceleration to take place until the speed doubles (approximately in front of the body).
At this point the bat speed doubles increasing centripetal force by a factor of four causing the wrists to uncock or turn (second fulcrum) as the result of the bat speed allowed to develop.
There is no momentum transfer. There is angular acceleration and centripetal acceleration.
You are using the wrong terminology that leads to a misunderstanding in the forces that dvelop and increase bat speed.
Q -
I believe it is scientifically acceptable to call the "flail" or double pendulum a whipping action simplified to 2 segments.
The bat as a lever is certainly different from ball on string and very similar to golf where conservation of momentum is well demonstrated, see pictures in this online golf chapter, for example:
http://www.newgolfswing.com/newgolfswing08.php
and on how to avoid the "Sunday duffer spin" when starting down :
http://www.newgolfswing.com/newgolfswing07.php
In mlb hitting, unlike golf you need to torque th handle and tilt the shoulders to quicken control swing load/adjustment on fly without the "hitting early" (hitting around/slicing across) problem that S. Abrams mentions.
You need a two handed torquing type handle action in hitting unlike the one piece "hinge" grip in golf.
I believe it is scientifically acceptable to call the "flail" or double pendulum a whipping action simplified to 2 segments.
The bat as a lever is certainly different from ball on string and very similar to golf where conservation of momentum is well demonstrated, see pictures in this online golf chapter, for example:
http://www.newgolfswing.com/newgolfswing08.php
and on how to avoid the "Sunday duffer spin" when starting down :
http://www.newgolfswing.com/newgolfswing07.php
In mlb hitting, unlike golf you need to torque th handle and tilt the shoulders to quicken control swing load/adjustment on fly without the "hitting early" (hitting around/slicing across) problem that S. Abrams mentions.
You need a two handed torquing type handle action in hitting unlike the one piece "hinge" grip in golf.
Babe Ruth said that the only difference between a golf swing and a baseball swing is the stride in the baseball swing.
Considering that Babe used a 42 ounce bat, he would have had to have had enourmous strength, super human strength, to swing using your method and be as productive as he was.
You should reconsider your sources as to the mechanics of the golf swing.
Here is a short film in which Babe exhibits his swing and compares it to a golf swing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEYSb66ndNY
Considering that Babe used a 42 ounce bat, he would have had to have had enourmous strength, super human strength, to swing using your method and be as productive as he was.
You should reconsider your sources as to the mechanics of the golf swing.
Here is a short film in which Babe exhibits his swing and compares it to a golf swing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEYSb66ndNY
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
Babe Ruth said that the only difference between a golf swing and a baseball swing is the stride in the baseball swing.
Considering that Babe used a 42 ounce bat, he would have had to have had enourmous strength, super human strength, to swing using your method and be as productive as he was.
You should reconsider your sources as to the mechanics of the golf swing.
Here is a short film in which Babe exhibits his swing and compares it to a golf swing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEYSb66ndNY
interesting comment...
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
I tell players not to use their biceps in the swing.
It's easier and clearer than trying to explain the advantages of proper use of the triceps in the swing.
After watching a D-1 fall game, I made the suggestion to a few players I noticed were doing the short arm/bicep/pop up/pull swing. I could see them use the triceps in their second or third at bat in the next game. Vast improvement in their contact and power generated.
I tell batters of all ages to leave the biceps out of the swing.
I want you to do a one-arm swing with the lead arm and use the triceps only. Now do a one-arm swing with the top hand using the triceps.
Now do both contracting the biceps instead of the triceps.
You will feel that using the biceps AND triceps will maintain the integrity of the swing compared to using ONLY the triceps. Your "use the triceps, ignore the biceps theory" does not fit. The biceps will keep the hands close to the body. The contraction of the biceps creates a load on the forearm. The "releasing" of the biceps allow the hands to get to the ball. If the pitch is inside, the biceps don't release in an effort to keep the hands close to the body. If the pitch is outside, the biceps release in order to "let" the elbow extend. A conscious effort to extend the elbow by contracting the triceps will lead to casting and bat drag.
High-level hitters don't primarily use the triceps to extend the elbow. The elbow gets extended due to centrifugal force. The bicep must apply centripetal force to overcame and delay the extension of the elbow.
Contracting the biceps in the swing would cause the arms to rise. This is the short arm/pull hitter/ popup swing.
Using the biceps in the swing is what I refer to as carrying the bat through the zone. Much less acceleration created, thus less bat speed.
It can be done and a batter could be successful, but the batter would not be using their abilities to the maximum. They would usually be a line drive pull hitter at best.
Centrifugal force is not relative to the discussion. It is a force without constant string tension and exerts force away from the axis. It could apply to throwing, but not hitting.
The term centrifugal roughly translated means to 'flee from center'.
Using the biceps in the swing is what I refer to as carrying the bat through the zone. Much less acceleration created, thus less bat speed.
It can be done and a batter could be successful, but the batter would not be using their abilities to the maximum. They would usually be a line drive pull hitter at best.
Centrifugal force is not relative to the discussion. It is a force without constant string tension and exerts force away from the axis. It could apply to throwing, but not hitting.
The term centrifugal roughly translated means to 'flee from center'.
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
Contracting the biceps in the swing would cause the arms to rise. This is the short arm/pull hitter/ popup swing.
I never said anything about keeping the biceps flexed and the elbows at a fixed angle throughout the swing. The "releasing" of the biceps allow the elbow to extend and adjust for location.
Boxers don't use just their triceps to punch. The biceps must stabilize and release in order to let the elbow extend.
Also the biceps supinate the forearm. Bend your arm and have your wrist in a pronated position. Now supinate your wrist. You see the bicep moving? Therefore, the biceps also control/delay the pronation of the lead forearm. The biceps also supinate the top hand/arm.
You obviously don't know much about boxing.
Tell me what effect the biceps have in the jab.
Any time you straighten your arm, you are using your triceps.
Any time you raise your arm. you are using the biceps.
Muscles only work by contraction.
Tell me what effect the biceps have in the jab.
Any time you straighten your arm, you are using your triceps.
Any time you raise your arm. you are using the biceps.
Muscles only work by contraction.
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
You obviously don't know much about boxing.
Tell me what effect the biceps have in the jab.
Any time you straighten your arm, you are using your triceps.
Any time you raise your arm. you are using the biceps.
Muscles only work by contraction.
I wasn't referring to a jab. I'm talking about the hardest punch a boxer can execute.
Do the hands "jab" at the ball?
Muscles work by contraction, but there are three types of contraction.
One that shortens the muscle.
One that allows lengthening of the muscle.
One that maintains a fixed length.
You obviously don't know much about muscle contraction.
Contraction does not lengthen the muscle. Never.
The biceps contract conversely to the triceps.
The hands do 'jab' into the swing. The first move in the swing is to lengthen the arms towards the ball.
I think you are trying to lengthen our muscles.
But that is called stretching.
The biceps contract conversely to the triceps.
The hands do 'jab' into the swing. The first move in the swing is to lengthen the arms towards the ball.
I think you are trying to lengthen our muscles.
But that is called stretching.
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
Contraction does not lengthen the muscle. Never.
The biceps contract conversely to the triceps.
The hands do 'jab' into the swing. The first move in the swing is to lengthen the arms towards the ball.
I think you are trying to lengthen our muscles.
But that is called stretching.
Are you serious?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_contraction
When you do a squat and come down, you must not be using your quads then, because your quads have lengthened. Is that what you are trying to say? That is 100% false. The quads are working throughout the whole motion of a squat, regardless of length.
You can report that as another Wikipedia error.
We are talking about the arms not the legs.
If your quads are working on the downward movement, you are doing your squats wrong.
Muscles contract. That is all they do. When they relax, they lengthen.
http://health.howstuffworks.com/muscle.htm
We are talking about the arms not the legs.
If your quads are working on the downward movement, you are doing your squats wrong.
Muscles contract. That is all they do. When they relax, they lengthen.
http://health.howstuffworks.com/muscle.htm
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
You can report that as another Wikipedia error.
We are talking about the arms not the legs.
If your quads are working on the downward movement, you are doing your squats wrong.
Muscles contract. That is all they do. When they relax, they lengthen.
http://health.howstuffworks.com/muscle.htm
Once again, are you serious? You must not have read your own link. Go to your link and click on 3.Contracting a Muscle. Scroll down the the text with yellow background. This is what is says:
quote:
The shortening of the fibers creates mechanical force, or muscle tension. Whether the muscle itself changes length (same-force or isotonic contraction) or not (same-length or isometric contraction) depends upon the load attached to the muscle. For example, your biceps muscle is attached to your shoulder blade at one end and to your ulna in your forearm at the other end. When the biceps contracts, it shortens and pulls the ulna toward the shoulder blade (the ulna is attached to the elbow joint). This movement allows you to lift your forearm and a given load. In contrast, if you are carrying a heavy load, such as a full suitcase, that makes you unable to lift your forearm, then the biceps does not shorten significantly. But the force that the muscle generates is helping you carry the suitcase.
Now tell me that I am wrong and that the Wiki is wrong. The Wiki just uses different words (same meaning) to describe the contraction types.
As for the squat exercise, go tell that to a strength coach. The quads working on the way down is imperative to develop muscle. Only bodybuiders tend to ignore the eccentric contraction. If you don't use your quads on the way down, you will fall on your @$$, it's that simple. You think only the hamstrings are keeping you up?
When muscles relax they don't lengthen. When muscles relax they stay at resting length. Stretching is when muscles are pulled beyond resting length. Stretching is NOT when muscles are lengthened while contracted.
quote:The shortening of the fibers creates mechanical force, or muscle tension. Whether the muscle itself changes length (same-force or isotonic contraction) or not (same-length or isometric contraction) depends upon the load attached to the muscle. For example, your biceps muscle is attached to your shoulder blade at one end and to your ulna in your forearm at the other end. When the biceps contracts, it shortens and pulls the ulna toward the shoulder blade (the ulna is attached to the elbow joint). This movement allows you to lift your forearm and a given load. In contrast, if you are carrying a heavy load, such as a full suitcase, that makes you unable to lift your forearm, then the biceps does not shorten significantly. But the force that the muscle generates is helping you carry the suitcase.
All contraction.
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:quote:The shortening of the fibers creates mechanical force, or muscle tension. Whether the muscle itself changes length (same-force or isotonic contraction) or not (same-length or isometric contraction) depends upon the load attached to the muscle. For example, your biceps muscle is attached to your shoulder blade at one end and to your ulna in your forearm at the other end. When the biceps contracts, it shortens and pulls the ulna toward the shoulder blade (the ulna is attached to the elbow joint). This movement allows you to lift your forearm and a given load. In contrast, if you are carrying a heavy load, such as a full suitcase, that makes you unable to lift your forearm, then the biceps does not shorten significantly. But the force that the muscle generates is helping you carry the suitcase.
All contraction.
I give up. You are either blind or lack reading comprehension. Tell me in your own words what isometric contraction is. You only bolded "contraction". Why didn't you bold "isometric". You say that when a muscle is contracted they shorten. Then why do you bold "contraction" in "isometric contraction" to back yourself up when in actuality only proved yourself wrong since isometric contraction does not change the muscle length?
I'm sorry, but the more you write only shows the less you really know. I don't know why it is hard for you to comprehend the different types contractions. Maybe I need to read them to you.
Why don't you do some more reading so you can understand what I'm trying to point out.
http://us.commercial.lifefitness.com/content.cfm/benefi...tricstrengthtraining
http://muscle.ucsd.edu/musintro/contractions.shtml
shortening of the fibers creates mechanical force, or muscle tension.
Isometric or any other form of contraction is making something smaller. Or in the vernacular, if a muscle contracts it gets shorter. Pretty simple.
You may be seeking some equilibrium in the lifting and lowering muscles, but that is not what we are looking for in the swing.
We are looking to exert the greatest force possible into contact.
The contraction of muscles that would delay, minimize or slow that force would be contrary to the task at hand.
Isometric or any other form of contraction is making something smaller. Or in the vernacular, if a muscle contracts it gets shorter. Pretty simple.
You may be seeking some equilibrium in the lifting and lowering muscles, but that is not what we are looking for in the swing.
We are looking to exert the greatest force possible into contact.
The contraction of muscles that would delay, minimize or slow that force would be contrary to the task at hand.
bump.
Torque talk.
Torque talk.
