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Torso Turn

floridafanfloridafan5,000+ posts
The hitting instructor that works with my Son is very particular about having my Son's hands begin moving toward the hitting zone before his front shoulder moves. My guy has a difficult time with that sometimes, starting his shoulder to turn fractionally before his hands start moving. If his shoulder begins first, the arguement is that this in turn slows down his batspeed.

The Journey Continues!

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floridafanfloridafan5,000+ posts
Deviled Eggs is a pure rotational swing adocate.

My guy is a hands guy. It works very well for him. The hands contain some of the quickest muscles in the body. Get them started first then power through with the core muscle group.

This has been a very successful approach for my Son.

Remember that "the hand is quicker than the eye".
floridafanfloridafan5,000+ posts
The teaching that my Son recieves encourages him to stay "stacked" and not leaning over to reach a pitch. We let the outside pitches get deeper and take them the opposite way. His posture is more upright maintaining balance throughout the swing.
If he is leaning over we believe he is "bleeding" power from his swing.

The method works well for him. You can see a clip of him in this forum under "video of my Son".

It is not a rotational approach, nor is it a linear approach. But it is his approach.
handyrandyhandyrandy100+ posts
It's called hitting, and too many folks here and at other sites get so into which muscle does what and which bone does this or that, and get so defensive protecting their "philosophy" and trying to win by yelling the loudest that they forget the point is to hit the da-- ball! It would be comical, if their arguments wern't so childish. Son's instructor teaches much like yours, it sounds.

BTW-saw your son's swing-I hope my sons's look that good someday.
Last edited by handyrandy
right arm of zeusright arm of zeus1,000+ posts
It has been my experience that people who hit the way you are describing usually hit for a higher average and are fooled less on pitches. A.K.A "using your hands to start" and not the torso. the best hitters are usually the ones who can use "Their torso" until they get the two strikes and then "Start with their hands" with two strikes. Of course this is using your terminology. I cannot get the clip to see the swing, but just reading and adding input.
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
The hitting threads here all seem to focus on delivering power in the swing. Nothing wrong with that, but my experience is that if you don't hit the ball on the sweet spot the most powerful swing is no good to you at all.

For some, the hands approach helps them to square the ball up more consistently. I've always thought that in teaching hitting, you should start a younger player with that philosophy, then develop power as the player becomes more confident and comfortable and able to put the barrel where the ball is consistently.

It also helps them to adjust to off-speed and breaking pitches more, IMHO.

And with that, I'll now bow out, as the usual diatribes will no doubt take over this thread.
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
The hitting threads here all seem to focus on delivering power in the swing. Nothing wrong with that, but my experience is that if you don't hit the ball on the sweet spot the most powerful swing is no good to you at all.

For some, the hands approach helps them to square the ball up more consistently. I've always thought that in teaching hitting, you should start a younger player with that philosophy, then develop power as the player becomes more confident and comfortable and able to put the barrel where the ball is consistently.

It also helps them to adjust to off-speed and breaking pitches more, IMHO.

And with that, I'll now bow out, as the usual diatribes will no doubt take over this thread.




According to Louisville Slugger, not hitting on the sweetspot, but still on the fat of the bat only costs you 30 to 40 feet. If you are big enough and strong enough, you can still hit a HR.

I think guys that lead with their hips still hit the ball on the sweetspot quite often. Ted Williams did pretty well doing that. On the other side, however, Tony Gwynn, Wade Boggs, and Rod Carew did well the other way too. It's all a matter of taking the hitter's strengths and using them to their advantage.
T TripleDad500+ posts
I don't understand the "start with your hands thing". When I watch video of mlb players I never see this. The hands are the last to launch. Also, the hands control the bat. The core can start the swing, but the hands don't necessarily have to swing the bat. The longer the hands stay back, the longer you see the ball.

I would like someone to show me exactly what they mean with "start the hands" approach. I must be misunderstanding it!
D deaconspoint100+ posts
While reading this I had a thought. floridafan, I don't know how old your boy is, but I do see that handyrandy's is 12. So could it be that teaching hitting to these boys may be a little different than teaching to an older, stronger player. Maybe teh fact that you don't see many MLB players lead with the hands is because they are strong enough to lead with the bigger muscles and not have the bat get left behind.

What I've seen with my son and a lot of other young hiteres is that power is always looked at as the untimate goal. The big muscles of the body can produce more power. However, when they start with the middle and turn using the hips and torso first the hands and bat get left behind. They just don't have the strength to keep up. This may be why we see so much of what we call bat drag in these swings. They're trying to do all teh right things, but just can't hang on to that momentum. Just a thought.

It could be that your hitting instructor is on to something with your kids. Getting the hands involved early may cause more tension in the arms. This in turn may help those arms stay connected to the momentum of the body turning. Getting the hands involved early might also help with the casting that is seen so much when kids are trying to blast the ball.

I'm still not sure I am there with "starting with the hands", but I can see where involving them, and doing so early on may help them stay where they are supposed to be. Inside the ball and connected to the momentum created by the larger muscles at work.

TM
L LClifton10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by floridafan:
The teaching that my Son recieves encourages him to stay "stacked" and not leaning over to reach a pitch. We let the outside pitches get deeper and take them the opposite way. His posture is more upright maintaining balance throughout the swing.
If he is leaning over we believe he is "bleeding" power from his swing.

The method works well for him. You can see a clip of him in this forum under "video of my Son".

It is not a rotational approach, nor is it a linear approach. But it is his approach.

The hitting instructor that works with my Son is very particular about having my Son's hands begin moving toward the hitting zone before his front shoulder moves. My guy has a difficult time with that sometimes, starting his shoulder to turn fractionally before his hands start moving. If his shoulder begins first, the arguement is that this in turn slows down his batspeed.


I like your son's swing---a lot.

I happen to think that since he is getting instruction that has him swinging the way he is now and it includes a thought of the hands "getting going" then his instructor is doing a fine job. Your son is interpreting the thought very well, IMO.
That is a very good thing. I like it.

A constant bellowing of "be careful using the words--- "use the hands" --- is tiresome as well as inaccurate.

It is not a taboo thing to talk about the hands and your son is evidence of that.

The way / the manner in which his hands start to the hitting zone (to use your words) is quite good. Few younger hitters do this.
Kudos to your son and his instructor.

I like his swing, florida fan. A lot.
DC Diablo con Huevos500+ posts
FLAfan- hands are quick muscles - but so are muscles that control eyelashes... why not use physics to get the maximum velocity you can in your bathead at impact with ball... are you telling me that you want the momentum in a baseball swing to start up at the hands and then work their way down to hips? and then back up again in to baseball? try the kinetic link of energy... it works from the ground up in anything - simple physics... besides, wouldn't you want larger muscles yanking smaller ones instead of the other way around...??

your son is not linear or rotational? impossible. you have to be one or the other... ask any Ex. Science dept in any University in America - it is learned in any intro biomechanical principles of
human movement class.... unless of course you are changing science... (and the hand path dicates which you are)

handyrandy- you want front elbow working down? so you want the bat head traveling down? do you realize that the ball you are trying to hit is also traveling down? very minimal area (LxW) to make contact that way... not to mention 87% of ground balls are outs (if you make solid contact) in major leagues as of last year...

and FLAfan, i teach what i see the best hitters in the world doing... i have 6 clients in big leagues, 13 in minors and over 50 in college as of this past spring... what i teach works... it may not be for everyone... but it is for everyone who wants to reach their overall future potential - and if you can run a sub 3.8 from hm to 1st, well cast those hands and more power to ya...

mic- don't put gwynn in that group of players... he was linear for most of career but made a point to come out and speak about him changing his swing later in career to drive in more runs(because all his singles made him a doubleplay just waiting to happen) (oddly enough he continued to challenge .400 as well).. but he is an advocate of hips leading hands, and matching swing plane to path of ball, and hands inside baseball on a circular hand path... look it up...
Last edited by Diablo con Huevos
DC Diablo con Huevos500+ posts
FLAfan- just looked at video of your son, Eric, in cages... you are blind if you do not think his hips lead his hands.. he has pretty good seperation.. he could hit for a chunk more power if he would change is hands approach to ball... the torque is there he just slows his bathead down but allowing his hands to to stay off of a circular path.. his arms look to be getting yanked around his body on a long path - but i bet (if he has good eye/hand coord.) he is a pretty good h.s. hitter... i like how he tries to stay behind the ball at contact for more body leverage ( = greater ball exit speed)...
ShepsterShepster1,000+ posts
quote:
Shep, these cats talking circular handpath mean a circular handpath to the ball, not after the ball is hit..........


Okay, I understand BlueDog. The description they promote defintely sounds like a sweeper swing, if that indeed is the case. You have to take the barrel to the ball, this is so true. You can't hit successfully at higher levels sweeping those arms in circular path. You do have to keep the hands inside the ball and never outside the ball in a circular path. I totally agree with that premise.
peace shep
Last edited by Shepster
ShepsterShepster1,000+ posts
quote:
Ted's scapulas were staying loaded and his hands and arms were staying connected to his shoulder, how in the heck could his bat barrel drop like it does so far from ball contact?


That's easy. The splendid splinter took the barrel to the ball before rolling that top-hand, or should I say, "snapped the barrel through the zone at contact". Smile All that movement in the hitch is a way to keep the bat "floating" while he awaits the message to "take the barrel to the ball, aggressively".

peace
shep
Last edited by Shepster
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
quote:
He probably could have hit a few more homeruns with more tilt in body posture and load in scapula. I agree.


Shep, not my point, at all.......

I'm saying, posture setting swing plane and scapula load are non-factors in the MLB swing......I know it's an about face for me, but, that's what I now see...

The hands and arms do not connect to the shoulder, IMO........

Scapula load and posture should not be factors in teaching hitting....
Last edited by BlueDog
ShepsterShepster1,000+ posts
quote:
I'm saying, posture setting swing plane and scapula load are non-factors in the MLB swing......I know it's an about face for me, but, that's what I now see...


When you say mlb, do you mean minor league baseball? Big Grin Just kidding BlueDog. peace however Smile See below>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

How about Rickey's Tilt?
Last edited by Shepster
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Diablo con Huevos:
FLAfan- hands are quick muscles - but so are muscles that control eyelashes... why not use physics to get the maximum velocity you can in your bathead at impact with ball... are you telling me that you want the momentum in a baseball swing to start up at the hands and then work their way down to hips? and then back up again in to baseball? try the kinetic link of energy... it works from the ground up in anything - simple physics... besides, wouldn't you want larger muscles yanking smaller ones instead of the other way around...??

your son is not linear or rotational? impossible. you have to be one or the other... ask any Ex. Science dept in any University in America - it is learned in any intro biomechanical principles of
human movement class.... unless of course you are changing science... (and the hand path dicates which you are)

handyrandy- you want front elbow working down? so you want the bat head traveling down? do you realize that the ball you are trying to hit is also traveling down? very minimal area (LxW) to make contact that way... not to mention 87% of ground balls are outs (if you make solid contact) in major leagues as of last year...

and FLAfan, i teach what i see the best hitters in the world doing... i have 6 clients in big leagues, 13 in minors and over 50 in college as of this past spring... what i teach works... it may not be for everyone... but it is for everyone who wants to reach their overall future potential - and if you can run a sub 3.8 from hm to 1st, well cast those hands and more power to ya...

mic- don't put gwynn in that group of players... he was linear for most of career but made a point to come out and speak about him changing his swing later in career to drive in more runs(because all his singles made him a doubleplay just waiting to happen) (oddly enough he continued to challenge .400 as well).. but he is an advocate of hips leading hands, and matching swing plane to path of ball, and hands inside baseball on a circular hand path... look it up...




No, I understand he changed his swing later and took a lot of that from Ted Williams. I was just giving examples of guys that made hands hitting successful for them.
ShepsterShepster1,000+ posts
Quote by Splendid Splinter in a conversation with Wade Boggs and Peter Gammons a few decades back on the topic of weight shift in swing and other hitting points:

"WILLIAMS: I'm doing it with my hips."-Ted Williams

This is what I said last night before reading what Deemax posted for us. I remember his dad BBscout posting that very same conversation a few years back.

My quotes from Nov. 8th, 2007 speaking of Ted Williams:

#1-He did lead with hips from the ground up with excellent hand-eye coordination in the "do swing/don't swing" decision making process.-Shep

#2-That's easy. The splendid splinter took the barrel to the ball before rolling that top-hand, or should I say, "snapped the barrel through the zone at contact". All that movement in the hitch is a way to keep the bat "floating" while he awaits the message to "take the barrel to the ball, aggressively".-Shep

I think the one word I used last night, "aggressively", would be the same description Ted uses when he says the following in the part of discussion on weight transfer: "I'm doing it with my hips".-Ted Williams

That is a very good read on hitting! Thank you Deemax for sharing that with us again. You would make your father proud, as well as Ted Williams.

Here's your link I will post here for others to benefit in this thread also. Smile

Conversation between Ted Williams, Wade Boggs and Peter Gammons: Hitting POW-WOW!

Whoops! Didn't mean to leave Don Mattingly out Big Grin
Last edited by Shepster
floridafanfloridafan5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Diablo con Huevos:
mic- nice that you came up with three... do you want to list the ones that didn't cast hands - the other 98% of MLB players???

bluedog-
didn't mean to sound as if shoulders started swing - shoulders only turn because of core muscles working...


I think that this is the distinction that the hitting instructor we use stresses. I believe that it is a mental cue to get the hands moving before the shoulder opens. Period. Obviously the lower half and the core are where much of the power comes from. But in no way do I believe that the hands are along for the ride. Strong forearms and hands are key. Not just for holding onto the bat.
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