Tourney Teams vs. Exposure Teams

Joe,  that's exactly what my son's team did last year at 17U.  We played 5 or 6 "showcase" weekends....and 2 regular tourneys.  We saw as many as 30-35 coaches at games...depending on who and where we were playing.  I'm convinced that my son wouldn't have gotten a D1 offer had we stayed on a traditional "tourney" team....but I guess I really have no way to know.  I will say that at 16U, the team I ran had kids who were better than some of the kids from last year who ended up at D1's.  They played either Legion or tourneys last year...and got nowhere near the exposure my son's team had.  They ended up at some smaller schools and in the case of a very, very good catcher, ended up with nothing more than some D3 interest....so he enlisted in the Marines.  It's all about getting your player...and his info out tot he coaches...and then letting his play speak for itself.  If they don't see you, they won't offer you!!

Joe, correct me if I'm wrong, but your kid will be a JR. this fall(I seem to recall from previous posts)?

 

So I think that is the time when it definitely changes toward exposure.  Up thru the 14/15U age level, I think it is mostly about learning the game and the plastic trophies.  But you are right, during HS it should be about exposure to the next level.  Sounds like a good program.  I'm going to PM you as I am in your area.   

What a strange way to go about building a winning college program. I mean this nicely. Are the colleges looking for winners who can play? Or actors who can play a role in a scripted game?

 

I do not understand.

Its about getting kids who can already play exposure.  

Remember, different coaches want different things and have different preferences.  

So, if a team is in a tourney with a bunch of college coaches/recruiters watching and ahead 4-0 with a power pitcher on the mound that is mowing everyone down, the easy thing to do to get the win in the game is to leave the power arm up there and cruise to a victory.  Pulling the power arm and getting a kid a few innings who doesn't have the velocity but is control pitcher may very lose the game, but, it will give the coaches the opportunity to see another kid....and a different kind of player.  

If the teams objective is about getting players who can play exposure ect. then this serves the kids better.  

College coaches are looking for specific things....they need a catcher and a short stop for example....or they prefer tall power arms, or they want some left handed pitching....they come to games recruiting different things with different preferences.  They certainly don't care if the team they are watching wins the game or the tournament.  

Leftside said it perfectly.  My son's team (and my son) were perfect examples.  We had 2 kids committed before last summer started.  The first  to get a D1 offer commit during the summer was our #2 catcher.  The second was my son who was a utility IF (could play SS, 2B or 3B)....and I would say no better than our #4 or 5 pitcher.  My son had gone the first 4 weeks of the summer in a 1-30 slump with 8 or 9 K's.  Obviously the coaches recruting them saw something...who knows what that something was.  Our team was just over .500 for the summer...but regularly had as many as 20 coaches watching.  At this point, 14-15 out of the 20 kids are committed/signed...with a few more yet to come so it all worked out fairly well

You are correct going to be a Jr.  Please PM me.  

I'll take this one step further:  I ran a team when my son was 15U & 16U.  We basically handpicked the kids for the team...(myself and the HC).  Every kid was from NW Ohio/SE Michigan....and at the time (fall of 2011...these kids were 2015's) not one of them had even gotten an email from a college. 

 

We had a core of 13 or 14 kids....and used a couple guys to fill in that the kids on the team know from playing in the past.

 

We went to some very good tourneys...emailed the coaches ahead of time promoting our kids...and did everything "right" as far as trying to get our kids exposure.  However we were a "new" team....the only team in our organization and just not recognized as a top level program....so it was very hard to get coaches to come see us.

 

We played 7 tourneys....won 4, finished in the top 3 in the others....and lost 2-1 to Top Tier out of Illinois the last game of our 16U season.

 

By the time we finished that year, we had exactly 1 kid who had any serious college interest.

 

As of TODAY:

 

-4 of the regulars are heading to  D1's...including the Big Ten, MAC, ACC and Big 12

-2 or the regulars are going to D2's

-1 of the regulars is walking on at a mid-major D1....up to 88 this spring as a HS senior

-3 are heading to a very good JUCO that went to the regionals this spring

-1 is going to a D1 as a kicker

-1 had mutliple D2 offers...but enlisted in the US Marines

 

Of the subs.....2 are going to D1's....Big Ten and SEC (though 1 of them was committed before he played for us

 

 

I guess my point is....a good team playing in the right tourneys....may still get ZERO interest....unless they are a well-known program.  Coaches know which teams have produced in the past...and will make every effort to see those teams before newer or lesser known teams. Nothing wrong with it....just a fact.

 

Leftside  pretty much put it correctly.  What we are finding out is that these guys don't care if you win or loose.  Everyone of them has something specific they are looking for.  Not just in the way of positions but mechanics and body type as well.  There are games we could be winning, heck even killing the other team.  In the end it doesn't matter to these guys what they are looking for is something specific in the way an individual plays.

I think the "travel" industry is gradually starting to bifurcate, especially at 16U and above (but to a lesser extent even at the 14U level).

 

My son played on a traditional travel team that was by certain measures a powerhouse.  We won local and regional tournament after tournament.  By some  measures we were considered a top "national"  team -- i.e. we were #1 in USSSA power rankings, etc, in the nation.  The coach was proud of that and used it as a marketing tool, to prove that his was a top shelf organization to parents in the area.  

 

But the thing is, as many of our eyes started to open up to the wider world,  we came to realize that the coach never entered us into any of the big national exposure events, like the PG/WWBA national championship, etc.   For reasons, I couldn't quite fathom,  he didn't think that was necessary.  When a group of us finally brought it up, he said  that we weren't ready for that level of competition.  Maybe he was right, who knows.  He once got really pissed off at a group of players who who would regularly miss our tournaments to play in various showcases or attend various camps.  Gave both the parents and the players a very stern lecture about commitment and loyalty.  He kept telling us all that he was our  ticket to college, that a letter from him could make or break them.  So we had better stick with him.

 

The guy was a piece of work.   I gradually came to realize what was going on.  He had built a very successful business model, which had worked for a very long time, and I think he saw it slipping away.   More and more of our best players and their parents, some of whom had played with him since they were 9 or 10,  started wanting much more exposure than he had built his cost structure and infrastructure  to provide.  He just didn't, and still doesn't have the depth of coaches or the connections or the infra-structure for that. Don't get me wrong, it was and is a big operation.  He still has  lots of local travel teams, at different age groups.  

 

In the end, most of the older players basically revolted.  Now he is not fielding either a  16U or an 18U team.  The top players just aren't interested in simply playing a bunch of local  tournaments against other local travel teams, with maybe one regional tournament a summer thrown in for good measure.  They want national level exposure against the very best competition. 

 

There are a definitely couple of organizations around here that specialize in that sort of thing -- especially for the 16U to 18U crowd.  You see  them at local tournaments too, but only  to get in some pre-exposure reps in advance of their big exposure events. They seem to have a greater depth of coaching, more contacts, and  more infrastructure. It seems to be a different ball game to run that sort of operation.

 

If my our old organization is any indication, I  think old style travel can still thrive very well at 14U and below.  He now mostly  emphasizes getting players ready to compete in HS, rather than college these days.   And, again, he still has a huge operation with lots of takers, which enables him to mount several teams at each age group, especially the younger age groups.  Some of his teams are highly competitive still -- others, not so much.  

 

But definitely for older players who have any ambitions to play at the next level, I think old style travel is starting to fade and be replaced by exposure type teams.  And what remains of old style travel seems to me to be taking on the quality of not quite rec league, but sort of summer HS leagues, except minus the very best HS players.  

 

Wish I had realized it sooner myself. Would have saved several confrontations with the old coach. But sadly  It took me awhile to see the shape of the overall landscape,  Put way more trust in the guy than he deserved. 

 

 

To tack onto that, this weekend there were a number of exposure tourneys going on in Chicagoland.  One run by the HS coaches association (or something like that), one run by the Chicagoland Scouts Association(CSA) (teams known for producing players - this is where we played) and one run by an organization promoting it as an "exposure tourney with top teams.  

 

The HS event is very highly attended by the college guys.  The CSA event was attracted pretty much the same guys as the HS coaches event.  The "exposure tourney with top teams" had guys there but no in the amounts as the Scouts Association tourney.  At the CSA we saw 8 or 9 guys at pretty much every game we played in, many with 10 or more.  Some teams playing in the "exposure tourney" tweeted out that it was cool that they had 2 to 5 guys watching every game.

 

The main difference the CSA event had that attracted more guys was the programs playing.  The event is limited to a few teams and each one of them is known for producing guys who can play at the next level.  The "exposure tourney" had some good teams in it but they are not necessarily known as programs that produce year after year.

Obviously doesn't matter if team wins or loses. I just don't see how a scripted event tells you much about how an actual game will be played when it does eventually count.

 

Showcase should be spelled $howcase. Exposure should be spelled Expo$ure.

 

And whether that is the state of the landscape or not (which I do agree it is), I remain clueless what either has to do with the athletic ability it will take to play at next level.

 

The For Profit gatekeepers that have inserted themselves between High School ball and College ball have essentially locked the athletes without a disposable several thousand dollars to spend out. No $, No expo$ure.

 

Spend enough $ on expo$ure and anyone with any connection or knowledge can be made to look good, in limited controlled scripted situations.

 

What chance does the athlete with no disposable $ for Expo$ure have in this subverted landscape called college recruiting??

 

Especially when the only available $ solution in to play for an underfunded, non profit team, with volunteer as best they can knowledgeable coaches? IE Conectionless Coaches because they also got shut out by the for profit gatekeepers.

With regard to costs....my son's team last year at 17U was likely the least expensive team we've played on...and we had 3 college coaches coaching it.  The events we played in were FAR, FAR less expensive than the "top tourneys"....in most cases...less than half the money for a 4-game guarantee...against top level programs in front of a lot of coaches.  There is  a program here in Ohio that runs some very well-attended tourneys....sometimes as many as 3 age groups per weekend...at fields as far as 60 miles away from town.  We played in it last year...and saw maybe 4 to 5 coaches per game.  Keep in mind there were 60+ teams.   We played in the same area in a "scout league" with 8-12 teams per weekend....no "champions"...just good baseball....and had 20-30 coaches.  The scout league cost us roughly 70% less than the tourney.  A much, much better value....we could buy a lot of medals and $5 trophies with that 70% if that's what we were looking for....lol

 

Also, I think you're getting the wrong impression of the so-called exposure events.  They differ from traditional tourneys...only in that they aren't playing for a championship and some cheap hardware.  The kids want to win....there are some really good "rivalries" between some top programs.  The games are every bit as competitive as some other tourneys....and likely better because there aren't any 'weak" teams or gimme games.   And again, the costs are typically lower than the "play for plastic" tourneys....

Joes87 - We play the round robin circuit with CSA also.

Agreed with everything you said. Top programs here in the Chicago area.

No tournament. No champions. Just good competition every game.

No cupcakes that you would find in the typical tournament style.

Takes getting used to, your kid playing a half game or so at times, however is best for all. Lot of good players. We are very strong top to bottom, and to play in a typical local tournament would not be challenging.

However regionally and nationally we are playing tournaments in Cincy (Dinger Wood BAT) and the PG WWBA Championships in GA

Not expecting any cupcakes in these two.

Exactly what we did....5 league / showcase events....and the same two tourneys as you are attending.  Worked out well for us and our kids.

FYI - Dinger schedule posted already.

 

PM me your team and see if we're close to playing at a similar site.

How do you tell whether a team is "Tourney" or "Exposure"? What term should I search for in Bing or Google to find a Exposure team in my region?

Not sure google will help you.  A team can claim to be an "exposure" team...but if they aren't getting the kids into the right events, that means nothing.  I would ask around and see what parents (I would talk to 16U and 17U) and see what they've experienced.  You can also go to a teams website.  Teams that have a good record of getting kids into colleges will typically have a list of "commitments" from previous years.  If there is 1 or 2 per year...it's not likely working....but if there are 10-12/year for multiple years, then you're onto something.   Keep in mind the "national" programs will draw kids from all over the country for 17U and 18U....most of those kids had a pretty good chance of going to college anyway (or had already committed) but then get listed on the website as being a commit of the "national program"...which technically is true...but maybe that organization didn't have to do as much work as a smaller regional program to help that kid get into college.  He was already very well known before he got there. 

I think Joe pretty much knocked this one out of the park.  Look at the tournaments.  There are many that claim to be "exposure" tournaments but he only thing you're exposed to is the sun.  That said, there seems to be a lot more standard tournaments and only a few select exposure events.  Which makes sense.  Otherwise they would just be see a repeat week after week. 

It doesn't necessarily translate into money.  The organization that my son currently plays for is not the most expensive around.  Its actually cheaper then most of them at my sons age.  Im not saying its cheap, but its a good value for the exposure he is getting compared to the other teams.  For about $500 less then I would have payed to play on a good tourney team I am getting, games lessons for my kid, unis and exposure.

 

BTW there is at least one organization in the association that is made up of mostly inner city kids and charges very little to play.

 

As for the games, the only thing scripted at exposure type events is the player rotation.  Is there something wrong with letting the recruiters and coaches in attendance have an opportunity to see as many players as possible?  They players are still out there trying to perform as well as they can.

 

As for showcases ($howcase - so witty...) there is no requirement to attend them.  If you do choose to attend them, there is no reason why a player needs to pick a high priced one.  There are several opportunities a year for my son to work with and play in front of 25+ college coaches for less than $200 a weekend.

 

I've yet to see a truly talented player "locked out" of exposure.  A really talented player will be gladly subsidised by an organization because they know having those players on the team benefits all their players when it comes to "exposure".

 

For the record, my son's "exposure" team charges a grand total of nothing. Tough to make a profit that way.  The coaches are all MLB scouts.  I guess they're knowledgable. 

BTW, the majority of our fees go towards rental of an indoor practice facility 3 to 4 days a week during the winter.  If you were to subtract that out I am guessing our fees would be less then $400.

When my son's travel team played in showcases the ultimate goal was exposure. But they were playing to win. The talent was equitable. The coach could have pulled a lineup out of a hat. No one would have argued it's a bad lineup.

 

A quality travel team gets you playing whee the right people are watching relative to the talent on the team. The coaches have reputations and contacts with college coaches. They know how to sell your players to college coaches.

 

I'm not sure what is the agenda of one poster here. But I preferred to have my son in front of twenty colleges at the right tournament rather than hoping one college coach showed up for a Legion game.

 

Coming off an injury my son's travel coach made a phone call to declare him physically ready. His word was good enough for the college coach Sight unseen post injury. The contacts and credibility of the travel team coaches were worth the price by itself.

Had a local kid from a small town recently offered a D1 baseball scholarship to a large school.  He plays in American legion program and throws 90 as an incoming senior.  He has never played tournament ball.

On my sons team there were at least 38 kids on the roster, 18 PO's then 2 to 3 for every other position on the field. Every inning the rotated out and no one rarely got more than 1 at bat during a game. Pitchers were told what game to come to in advance so they wouldn't be sitting around all day.
When they went to Jupiter, Atlanta or St. Petesburg to play PG events only 15-18 would make that trip and it was by invite only. Then they played to win.
It worked well for this group, of the 38 kids on the team 34 were 2013's and 30 went to play somewhere. Most were signed during the fall of Sr year, the rest during that summer.

Also be cautious of organizations that list players who played for them when they were 9 YO but then moved on to play elsewhere. There are a number of those in this area.  You can find the same player listed on 3 or 4 sites if you try. Best way I know of to find an exposure program is to start asking around in your area. 

The best situation is when the right teams come to the player.

If you want to see if the "team" is providing exposure, check their schedule and see what tournaments they are attending.  Go to the tournament websites and see which coaches / scouts are attending or have attended in the past. Here is a sample from a tournament this past weekend.

Was this from the Dynamic tournament last weekend? 

Were there seriously 115 college recruiters at this event??  That's a lot.  Did it seem like that many?  Do you really think all those guys showed up?

Wow....impressive.  We played in some good events....but never anything like that.  I'm thinking we were at 50+ at a couple of them.

The tournament was put on by Diamond Nation (Super 17 Invitational in NJ). You could not move very far without bumping into someone with a clip board, stop watch, and a radar gun. Each Coach identifiable by their team gear, pretty impressive gathering (this type of exposure seemed more like the Honor Roll Baseball Camp in NY, except you had coaching attendance on every pitch / play in every game).  Several fields, all well attended. Very good baseball being played on all fields.

 

Impressive! What team was your son playing with while in NJ if I may ask?

 

NTGson played at this event this past weekend. Well-run, well-attended by coaches and scouts UNLESS you were scheduled to play at Rutgers' facility at 8:00AM Saturday morning! That showed us which HC or RC was truly interested in any one of the kids playing: no concessions, no a/c building, gravel parking lot, no cages opened up for kids to hit pre-game, no whiteboard, just a really good ball game between two teams with quality pitchers.

 

Semis and Championship game very lightly-attended at the main facility on Monday.

No scouting report includes "Plays on a winning team."

Why not? It is on my list

 

Bob