Good stuff.
Given these work place issues, should Milb unionize? Personally I'm not a fan of many unions now but historically they've served a purpose to protect vulnerable workers in industries which have exploited them to the max.
One problem is leadership and which player would want to be this generation's Curt Flood ?
Absolutely they should unionize. 90% of these guys are there to provide teammates and opponents for the other 10%. They work 29 days a month for seven months, making slave wages, and are dismissed en masse making room for the next crop.
Meanwhile MLB can buy out The Expos for $150 million or loan teams $20 million at a time.
I'm not buying the "They don't have a gun to their heads" argument for being a non-union shop. The MLB guys pre-Curt Flood had no gun to their heads, either. Hockey has a minor league system that actually pays players to play. There is no reason baseball can't do the same.
Meanwhile MLB can buy out The Expos for $150 million or loan teams $20 million at a time.
I'm not buying the "They don't have a gun to their heads" argument for being a non-union shop. The MLB guys pre-Curt Flood had no gun to their heads, either. Hockey has a minor league system that actually pays players to play. There is no reason baseball can't do the same.
I was looking over the list of transactions the other day and couldn't help but notice the disabled lists contained many players for many teams and also many familiar names as well. This usually happens after spring training but it's pretty early for so many to hit the 7 day DLafter a week into the season.
This essentially means that you showed up to do your job and fight for a spot, only to possibly get hurt and have to sit out early season, while others get the chance to move ahead of you. You are bound to that organization, if you walk away you become restricted, you can't go anywhere else unless they say so.
I do realize that everyone signs on the bottom line knowing what is in front of them, but I would like to know if there is any other job out there where you get hurt, can't move forward and can't change your employer without permission (and who wants someone that is hurt anyway). This is much tougher for those coming straight from HS than those with 3-4 years of college. Yes, perhaps a senior sign didn't get as much as he should have, but he also has plan B in place to start earning at another job quicker.
These are the things that make this job much tougher and harder than most.
JMO.
This essentially means that you showed up to do your job and fight for a spot, only to possibly get hurt and have to sit out early season, while others get the chance to move ahead of you. You are bound to that organization, if you walk away you become restricted, you can't go anywhere else unless they say so.
I do realize that everyone signs on the bottom line knowing what is in front of them, but I would like to know if there is any other job out there where you get hurt, can't move forward and can't change your employer without permission (and who wants someone that is hurt anyway). This is much tougher for those coming straight from HS than those with 3-4 years of college. Yes, perhaps a senior sign didn't get as much as he should have, but he also has plan B in place to start earning at another job quicker.
These are the things that make this job much tougher and harder than most.
JMO.
From what I've seen it is fairly standard practice to carry a player for quite a while they are on the DL long term(good because I assume that means the club is paying for medical attention, then again you know what they say about assume). Then it is fairly standard practice to release a lot of those players once they are cleared to practice again.
Tough business.
Tough business.
quote:I do realize that everyone signs on the bottom line knowing what is in front of them, but I would like to know if there is any other job out there where you get hurt, can't move forward and can't change your employer without permission (and who wants someone that is hurt anyway).
I'd like to know of some jobs where you can sign on straight from high school or a couple years of college and get a bonus for six figures just like that. I realize not every player gets that, but more than enough do to make the point valid...
also the "phantom" d. l. is used for very good players who impressed but organization has no roster spot,so they keep em till somebody does get hurt then swap em. how nerve racking is that? what kind of job security is that? we like you but....
Bulldog,
Maybe you can tell us what percentage get six figures? Then after that perhaps you can tell us how much of that is left after supplementing a few years of very little pay while toiling in the minors. Don't forget taxes on that signing bonus when you are doing your calculations.
Maybe you can tell us what percentage get six figures? Then after that perhaps you can tell us how much of that is left after supplementing a few years of very little pay while toiling in the minors. Don't forget taxes on that signing bonus when you are doing your calculations.
rabe,
Sounds a lot like being redshirted.
Sounds a lot like being redshirted.
quote:Bulldog,
Maybe you can tell us what percentage get six figures? Then after that perhaps you can tell us how much of that is left after supplementing a few years of very little pay while toiling in the minors. Don't forget taxes on that signing bonus when you are doing your calculations.
Higher than the average profession I'll bet... Hmm I'll be lucky to make six figures for a total yearly salary with 6 years of higher education. And I'll get to take the first two years after undergrad making about $10k meanwhile let's not forget all the loans from undergrad I have to pay off still...
They don't make much compared to those in skilled professions when you average it over the first 5 years and there's a lot more security in the skilled professions.
It is really only the first rounders and the few others who get first round money who make out well just on the basis of their signing bonuses.
It is really only the first rounders and the few others who get first round money who make out well just on the basis of their signing bonuses.
I once asked a scout why there are sixty rounds (at that time) in the draft. He said it's so the top third of the draft have enough teammates to play ball. He added they do make mistakes in evaluating players since some develop late.quote:I believe he was only half-kidding when he said the only reason the minor leagues exist is so the prospects have someone to play against.
As for the thread I don't think a post should be started using someone's name when it has the potential to turn into a bltch session over the person.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
From what I've seen it is fairly standard practice to carry a player for quite a while they are on the DL long term(good because I assume that means the club is paying for medical attention, then again you know what they say about assume). Then it is fairly standard practice to cut a lot of those players once they are cleared to practice again.
Tough business.
infielddad is more versed on this than myself, but a team cannot release you unless you have been cleared to be able to play (no matter how long that may be), but in may cases, lost time, certain injuries, the player insisting he's still not healthy, your age, do not allow a player to continue to play the game any longer.
If you have spent time on the DL, released, it's pretty hard for another team to consider you, unless of course you have reached the MLB level and at one time proven yourself and come at a bargain price, and you have someone who is willing to fix your problem ( Dave Duncan famous for that with cast off pitchers), which this isn't about.
Somethings are not as clear cut as others, depends on position, as in the case of pitchers, although cleared at signing, healthy, who is to say where the problem actually began. In the case of some injuries that happen, broken legs, arms etc., that happen while in play, that's another story, a clear case that your injury occured while you were employed by that organization.
MLB players have the right for second opinions and the team pays, milb do not, they have to pay and seek out that opinion, in most cases. If the team doc says you are ok, and you feel you are not, you have a choice, play or go get someone elses opinion all the while losing time at at a job that requires that you spent time in the game to get better.
BTW, while on the DL a milb player has to be assigned to a team and paid. And I am going to assume that the team files for worker's comp, so some of that is picked up there, and the player gets no forms to fill out like everyone else does when they get hurt on the job. He isn't going to hire an attorney, like most people have the option to do when hurt seriously on their job. When you get hurt on the job and then fired, you have rights under the law, most players will not follow this option.
quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:quote:Bulldog,
Maybe you can tell us what percentage get six figures? Then after that perhaps you can tell us how much of that is left after supplementing a few years of very little pay while toiling in the minors. Don't forget taxes on that signing bonus when you are doing your calculations.
Higher than the average profession I'll bet... Hmm I'll be lucky to make six figures for a total yearly salary with 6 years of higher education. And I'll get to take the first two years after undergrad making about $10k meanwhile let's not forget all the loans from undergrad I have to pay off still...
Bulldog19,
To be honest, I am a bit surprised by your comments in this thread. I say that because I think you posted that you worked in Milb for a team one Summer and I assumed would have seen the broad spectrum.
If so, I am not sure why you have the focus so much on the narrow spectrum.
Just some illustrations:there are 50 rounds in the draft, about 40 players get signed. Of those 40, most are like our son.
They sign for $1,000 and work morning, noon and night to earn one chance and then do the same to earn another chance tomorrow.
Our son ended up with 2 shoulder surgeries, 6 anchors in his shoulder and risks for degeneration later in life.
He is not an exception. There are many, many like him, far more than the players with larger bonuses that seem to cause some angst for you on a comparative basis. There are equally compelling stories to describe how that injury/disability process occurs vs how it legally should/must occur.
Let's just say the players who don't fight tooth and nail might not get what they should when they are on their way out of MLB.
Probably the majority of players drafted get released within 1-2 years. Many, many of those remaining after 1-2 years get released with some injury, often times permanent, to live with for life.
If you want to compare your financial situation with those drafted in the first 5-6 rounds, that is certainly fair to do.
It just does not represent, on a comparative basis, the vast population of those who get drafted, play and get released or get injured and permanently disabled along the way.
So we present all sides, one player with whom I am familiar was drafted after his junior year in rounds 10-20. I assume he may have received anywhere from $15,000 to $30,000.
Pitched for a bit less than 3 full seasons.
Is now out of baseball having had one spine surgery, one shoulder surgery, is looking at a possible need for a 2nd spine surgery(is recommended but the team refused to pay), and was offered less than $5,000 for his settlement.
So, would you like to be starting over in life at age 27 with that?
infielddad, all I have been trying to express is that while playing professional baseball may be a tough gig, I do not believe it is the "toughest" like others believe. Yes, it is a hard job and it's a hard life. But it is a choice the player makes and sometimes choices come with consequences.
I do believe that some of the things the teams do to their players are wrong no doubt about it.
I do believe that some of the things the teams do to their players are wrong no doubt about it.
I don't know if it is the toughest either.
What I do feel is that it is a "job" that is distinctly different than just about any.
There are not many places of employment that generate large amounts of money for very rich people(the MLB and MILB club owners), but the wages are paltry, and the demands to excel at what you do and to get better at what you do are measured daily and with such attention to ruthless(objective?) detail. MLB treatment of MILB players and MILB club ownership is not surpassed by many place of employment in terms of the lack of the fairness in bargaining power between employer/employee. By and large it is non-existent.
For a few, those who make it to MLB or who get very large bonus after taxes, it has positives.
For those who suffer career ending injuries that result in life long disability, it may border on the most unfair situation of any work in the Country.
In general, since I grew up in a town where underground mining was the major part of the economy, I can safely say I was/am happier my son had baseball as an option under any circumstances. If that is along the lines of your view and what you are thinking, I would obviously agree.
What I do feel is that it is a "job" that is distinctly different than just about any.
There are not many places of employment that generate large amounts of money for very rich people(the MLB and MILB club owners), but the wages are paltry, and the demands to excel at what you do and to get better at what you do are measured daily and with such attention to ruthless(objective?) detail. MLB treatment of MILB players and MILB club ownership is not surpassed by many place of employment in terms of the lack of the fairness in bargaining power between employer/employee. By and large it is non-existent.
For a few, those who make it to MLB or who get very large bonus after taxes, it has positives.
For those who suffer career ending injuries that result in life long disability, it may border on the most unfair situation of any work in the Country.
In general, since I grew up in a town where underground mining was the major part of the economy, I can safely say I was/am happier my son had baseball as an option under any circumstances. If that is along the lines of your view and what you are thinking, I would obviously agree.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
infielddad, all I have been trying to express is that while playing professional baseball may be a tough gig, I do not believe it is the "toughest" like others believe. Yes, it is a hard job and it's a hard life. But it is a choice the player makes and sometimes choices come with consequences.[QUOTE]
I do beleive if you go back and read correctly, the things being presented that are tough are circumstances mentioned that don't normally occur in other professions.
And remember you are NOT talking the highest level of the game.
infielddad, all I have been trying to express is that while playing professional baseball may be a tough gig, I do not believe it is the "toughest" like others believe. Yes, it is a hard job and it's a hard life. But it is a choice the player makes and sometimes choices come with consequences.[QUOTE]
I do beleive if you go back and read correctly, the things being presented that are tough are circumstances mentioned that don't normally occur in other professions.
And remember you are NOT talking the highest level of the game.
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:
There are equally compelling stories to describe how that injury/disability process occurs vs how it legally should/must occur.
Let's just say the players who don't fight tooth and nail might not get what they should when they are on their way out of MLB.
Probably the majority of players drafted get released within 1-2 years. Many, many of those remaining after 1-2 years get released with some injury, often times permanent, to live with for life.
Important things to consider. Thanks for sharing, infielddad.
I suppose a good agent would guide a player through this process, but how many of the non-prospects have representation? I don't know the answer, but after an injury is probably not the best time to be shopping for an agent.
"BTW, while on the DL a milb player has to be assigned to a team and paid. And I am going to assume that the team files for worker's comp, so some of that is picked up there, and the player gets no forms to fill out like everyone else does when they get hurt on the job.'
While basically true, you get paid at the level you were in the previous season, si if a short season level, you don't get paid till June. You still work to get better, but no salary
While basically true, you get paid at the level you were in the previous season, si if a short season level, you don't get paid till June. You still work to get better, but no salary
Baseball like any other profession is a profession of choice but in baseball there is the Golden Carrot at the end--multi million dollar paydays if you make it---you also have the goal of the 40 man MLB roster where the minimum pay is 400,000--not bad--in many professions you cannot make that kind of salary EVER---and today you can hit .200 and still make a great living PLAYING A GAME
This thread isn't about the 750 players making the MLB minimum, or more, who are protected by collective bargaining and one of the strongest unions in the Country. I would have thought that would be pretty obvious by reading through the thread. This isn't even really about the top picks who sign for large sums of money.
This thread is about the vast majority of players in Milb, not the ones in MLB who have a very, very different situation.
It is important to have accurate information.
Players on the 40 man do not all make the MLB minimum of $400,000.
Players on the 25 man make the minimum, at least. Those on the 40 man playing in Milb do not.
Saying it is a game is just what the owners making billions, while paying Milb players about $1,200 to $1,500 per month love to have fans believe.
Players and those who have been around Milb know it is a game for about 3 hours per day.
It is a **** tough business the rest of the hours of each day. For some, they will carry the medical residuals for the rest of their life.
TR, these are the guys this thread is about.
This thread is about the vast majority of players in Milb, not the ones in MLB who have a very, very different situation.
It is important to have accurate information.
Players on the 40 man do not all make the MLB minimum of $400,000.
Players on the 25 man make the minimum, at least. Those on the 40 man playing in Milb do not.
Saying it is a game is just what the owners making billions, while paying Milb players about $1,200 to $1,500 per month love to have fans believe.
Players and those who have been around Milb know it is a game for about 3 hours per day.
It is a **** tough business the rest of the hours of each day. For some, they will carry the medical residuals for the rest of their life.
TR, these are the guys this thread is about.
if i'm not mistaken isn't first year on the 40 man 35k?
it is a chosen profesion,( or it chooses you) unlike any other in the usa. i'd be much better off in my business if i didn't have labor laws to follow, even minimum wage.
a big business,disquised as a little boy's dream.
it is a chosen profesion,( or it chooses you) unlike any other in the usa. i'd be much better off in my business if i didn't have labor laws to follow, even minimum wage.
a big business,disquised as a little boy's dream.
infield dad
READ MY POST CLOSELY---did I not say it is, like others, a profession of choice ?---you go in with open eyes--and you deal with what you get in the process
Ironworkers walk steel oon high rises every days and they know they can fall and die and time !
Coal miners do what they do!
Policeman and Firefighters have the same danger every day
They all do it by choice---such is the way in our country --we have that freedom to choose our path
Stop with the PITY POT THINKING---life is tough
READ MY POST CLOSELY---did I not say it is, like others, a profession of choice ?---you go in with open eyes--and you deal with what you get in the process
Ironworkers walk steel oon high rises every days and they know they can fall and die and time !
Coal miners do what they do!
Policeman and Firefighters have the same danger every day
They all do it by choice---such is the way in our country --we have that freedom to choose our path
Stop with the PITY POT THINKING---life is tough
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:
(who signed for over $3/4 M in 2007).
Keep posting TR, I'll enjoy reading them.
Yet as we both get older, greyer, and fatter,
I am also enjoying more and more, my grandchildren.
Bear,
Now that is hysterical.
$3-4 M in 2007?
Amazing, just amazing.
I do think you and TR should keep on enjoying each other ....At least provide comments with reasonably accurate information please. Just "reasonably accurate" would be a nice start.[/QUOTE]
------------
Just like a fricking attorney who may not have
passed elementary fractions or middle school algebra (or retained much from).
Read the words from my lips:
Three quarters is larger than one half, yet less
than one. In other words, greater than three quarters of million dollars. As in $800,000.
I do think you owe an apology for your mistake.
quote:Originally posted by Bear:
Three quarters is larger than one half, yet less
than one. In other words, greater than three quarters of million dollars. As in $800,000.
I do think you owe an apology for your mistake.
3/4 or 3-4M.
NOT. You should get your facts straight.
Bear
You better listen to TPM
You better listen to TPM
Good advice TR, Bear should listen to TPM.
He does not have his facts straight, and it is easy enough to fact find on the internet these days, before just making things up and posting them here.
He does not have his facts straight, and it is easy enough to fact find on the internet these days, before just making things up and posting them here.
One person I would listen to on this site when it comes to the pro aspect of the game of baseball-- i know the mans background--do you?
And people tell me I have no sense of humor--you totally missed my point in regard to Bear
And people tell me I have no sense of humor--you totally missed my point in regard to Bear
Well, we will just let that be some inside humor with you and Bear.
If you are touting "the mans background" when it comes to the pro aspect of the game of baseball, he should have got the number right don't you think?
If you are touting "the mans background" when it comes to the pro aspect of the game of baseball, he should have got the number right don't you think?
Perhaps he did---do you know for sure he is wrong?
I don't
Also I was not touting his background---I asked you a simple question question--do you know what his background is?
I don't
Also I was not touting his background---I asked you a simple question question--do you know what his background is?
Simple answer, no I do not know what his background is. I only know of him what he writes in these forums.
I really don't see the relevance of his background except that someone like that should have the numbers straight before he posts.
Yes, I know the number. Yes, he is for sure wrong.
I really don't see the relevance of his background except that someone like that should have the numbers straight before he posts.
Yes, I know the number. Yes, he is for sure wrong.
Well, as with most threads that get touched by TR and his good baseball buddy Bear, lots of good information posted by reliable and knowledgeable folks gets contaminated.
TR comes here and yaps about the 40 man getting the MLB minimum. Wrong.
Bear continues his baseless and false information of TPM and her son's bonus. Whether his number was $3-4 million or 3/4 of a million, or $800,000 all of them are wrong and it is easy to check.
Oh well, just proves TPM was right all along when she closed her prior thread.
Thanks to everyone else who posted thoughts, views and experiences.
TR comes here and yaps about the 40 man getting the MLB minimum. Wrong.
Bear continues his baseless and false information of TPM and her son's bonus. Whether his number was $3-4 million or 3/4 of a million, or $800,000 all of them are wrong and it is easy to check.
Oh well, just proves TPM was right all along when she closed her prior thread.
Thanks to everyone else who posted thoughts, views and experiences.
Good day to your too Infielddad
I find it amazing and yet a load of fun to see others come on here and rag on me but when I do it I am reprimanded---just shows the minds at work if you can call it that
I find it amazing and yet a load of fun to see others come on here and rag on me but when I do it I am reprimanded---just shows the minds at work if you can call it that
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
Good day to your too Infielddad
I find it amazing and yet a load of fun to see others come on here and rag on me but when I do it I am reprimanded---just shows the minds at work if you can call it that
Yup, so many people are wrong and you are right!
***Note from Moderator CD****
This thread has run its course imho.