Mental side is a biggie!! Kids that have been there and done it are much more relaxed in big situations. Bases loaded? They love it. Down a run? Love it. Turn a double play to end a bases loaded threat? Love it. Need a K? Love it.
" His travel ball team plays 54/80 and his Rec. team plays 60/90."
After reading the comments about the big field and travel ball, it was funny to read this.
Question, with travel ball playing 54/80 and league playing 60/90. which is better for a 13 year old. Is it better to take the plunge and play on the 60/90 field or is it better to ease into it by making smaller increases?
After reading the comments about the big field and travel ball, it was funny to read this.
Question, with travel ball playing 54/80 and league playing 60/90. which is better for a 13 year old. Is it better to take the plunge and play on the 60/90 field or is it better to ease into it by making smaller increases?
Many 13 year olds are still pretty immature but many are pretty mature. For those that are immature physically my preference would be 54/80. If you have to pick one diamond size for all 13 year olds, I would pick 54/80.
Awesome post CYN....I also enjoyed reading all the other posts as well. As a former travel team coach, I now enjoy being the quiet dad on the other side of the chainlink fence. Always my son's biggest supporter to and from practice and games.
Travel ball definately gets the player on the right track vs. just playing local league neighborhood ball. Competition is on a much higher level, and this based on our trips to Cooperstown, California, Las Vegas, Omaha, and the Dominican Republic. Although my son has his own short comings and is not the next A-Rod or Jeter, he definately possesses a very high baseball IQ. We went the travel route and it shows when he is on the Junior High team and local PONY team. Not only my opinion but mentioned by the coaches on these teams.
Teams that carry 12-14 players on their roster should not even concern a parent or a player. When you get to HS, the roster will be 18-20. My advice to my son, work harder, the big hot bat is always in the lineup. Get on the coaches radar in practice, hustle, and be mentally tough. If your not in the game, be the total teammate. Its been his experience when he did not start in a game (and there have been many), he always managed to get in and deliver in a clutch situation. I feel fortunate that my 13 year old, has been taught these lessons from the age of 8 and will no doubt help him in HS next year. Daddy has not padded every fall or egotized him!
The reason I stepped away from the coaching ranks 3 years ago, I didn't like the stigma of Daddy Ball. I bought into the mindset that its his game and if that is what he wants I will support it as a father not a coach. And, let it be his dream to get to the next level!!!! And go through the many processes, politics, and failures along the way to help shape his character as a ballplayer. I think this alone will be a major blessing when he tries out for the HS team vs. the daddy ballers who have been cereomiously given 100% playing time from age 7-14, the short stop role despite the 2-3 errors/game, and the 3-hole slot with a BA of .180 career (LOL).....Yes, I already know some of these kids in my area who are having a very hard time impressing their new freshman coach, and for some this will be the end of the line. Feel bad for the kids in this situation, but I totally blame the daddy coach for not preparing their own kids.
The kids that have gone through some adversity and always had to earn their playing time and position seem to go tremendously further and usually make the JV squad as an incoming freshman. At least that is what I observed with about a dozen kids from my area.....
Great stuff....I really enjoy reading all the messages!
Disclaimer: My reference to Daddy Ballers is not a slam aginst the many talented coaches who coach their own son. Alot of these coaches have a professional pedigree and or just top knotch individuals as in the case of our current team. The Coach has a son on the team, but played professionally and ALWAYS puts the game first not his son......
Travel ball definately gets the player on the right track vs. just playing local league neighborhood ball. Competition is on a much higher level, and this based on our trips to Cooperstown, California, Las Vegas, Omaha, and the Dominican Republic. Although my son has his own short comings and is not the next A-Rod or Jeter, he definately possesses a very high baseball IQ. We went the travel route and it shows when he is on the Junior High team and local PONY team. Not only my opinion but mentioned by the coaches on these teams.
Teams that carry 12-14 players on their roster should not even concern a parent or a player. When you get to HS, the roster will be 18-20. My advice to my son, work harder, the big hot bat is always in the lineup. Get on the coaches radar in practice, hustle, and be mentally tough. If your not in the game, be the total teammate. Its been his experience when he did not start in a game (and there have been many), he always managed to get in and deliver in a clutch situation. I feel fortunate that my 13 year old, has been taught these lessons from the age of 8 and will no doubt help him in HS next year. Daddy has not padded every fall or egotized him!
The reason I stepped away from the coaching ranks 3 years ago, I didn't like the stigma of Daddy Ball. I bought into the mindset that its his game and if that is what he wants I will support it as a father not a coach. And, let it be his dream to get to the next level!!!! And go through the many processes, politics, and failures along the way to help shape his character as a ballplayer. I think this alone will be a major blessing when he tries out for the HS team vs. the daddy ballers who have been cereomiously given 100% playing time from age 7-14, the short stop role despite the 2-3 errors/game, and the 3-hole slot with a BA of .180 career (LOL).....Yes, I already know some of these kids in my area who are having a very hard time impressing their new freshman coach, and for some this will be the end of the line. Feel bad for the kids in this situation, but I totally blame the daddy coach for not preparing their own kids.
The kids that have gone through some adversity and always had to earn their playing time and position seem to go tremendously further and usually make the JV squad as an incoming freshman. At least that is what I observed with about a dozen kids from my area.....
Great stuff....I really enjoy reading all the messages!
Disclaimer: My reference to Daddy Ballers is not a slam aginst the many talented coaches who coach their own son. Alot of these coaches have a professional pedigree and or just top knotch individuals as in the case of our current team. The Coach has a son on the team, but played professionally and ALWAYS puts the game first not his son......
GapFinder.....In our area, PONY 13U plays on 54/80. This is basically all the club/travel teams that play locally - you come as a team, not an open registration as in Little League Juniors.
LL Juniors (13's)play on 60/90, and I can tell you first hand it is hard to watch. The talent level, the experience, is just not there with the players.
Will these LL Juniors be better prepared for HS? alot of these players will not even be considered based on the volume of kids playing year round on competive teams and PONY.
I will give LL credit for attempting to get players in their organization ready for HS, but it has a very long way to go. Kids who play 20 games a year will not fare well against kids playing 100 games a year be it 54/80 or 60/90.
Most kids will transition to the 60/90 dimensions the summer and fall before their HS freshman year......Nothing wrong with the development steps for 13.....
LL Juniors (13's)play on 60/90, and I can tell you first hand it is hard to watch. The talent level, the experience, is just not there with the players.
Will these LL Juniors be better prepared for HS? alot of these players will not even be considered based on the volume of kids playing year round on competive teams and PONY.
I will give LL credit for attempting to get players in their organization ready for HS, but it has a very long way to go. Kids who play 20 games a year will not fare well against kids playing 100 games a year be it 54/80 or 60/90.
Most kids will transition to the 60/90 dimensions the summer and fall before their HS freshman year......Nothing wrong with the development steps for 13.....
First, I define instincts as someone who is always in the right place and seems to be playing the game a step ahead of everyone else and the play (ex: Jeter versus the A's being on the first base line for an errant throw). Anything else is just understanding the fundamentals of the game.quote:Travel ball definately gets the player on the right track vs. just playing local league neighborhood ball. Competition is on a much higher level, and this based on our trips to Cooperstown, California, Las Vegas, Omaha, and the Dominican Republic. Although my son has his own short comings and is not the next A-Rod or Jeter, he definately possesses a very high baseball IQ. We went the travel route and it shows when he is on the Junior High team and local PONY team. Not only my opinion but mentioned by the coaches on these teams.
My son has done travel from age nine to sixteen. From 9-12 CR or LL was the primary team in spring. I've seen plenty of players, even at the 18U level my son is now playing, who lack baseball IQ. I don't believe instincts are learned. I believe they're innate. When a former pro said my son had the instincts of a high school player when he was eleven I thought he was joking. It wasn't anything I taught him. He wasn't playing some high level of travel. He wasn't leaving the metro area. I'm guessing your son has natural mental instincts for the game. Some have it. Some don't. Combined with genuine ability it makes for a heck of a baseball player.
There are so many variables it is difficult to draw any reliable conclusions about the fate of 13 year old players. Whether they are playing rec or travel, reduced size or full sized diamonds is not significant. They are just too young yet to draw any meaningful conclusions.
The big factor is innate qualities, not learned skills. No matter where you play, your innate quality will not be significantly impacted. NOW HEAR THIS. The higher level of ball you play, the faster your learned skills will develop. But only to the level that your innate ability allows.
There is no learned skill that a rec player with innate qualities cannot pick up on the full sized diamond in the year before HS tryouts. If a player on the full sized diamond shows potential it is then he should be playing with and against the best players that he can. Before that time it is all rec ball.
People dealing in absolutes talking about 13 year olds are in unchartered waters.
The big factor is innate qualities, not learned skills. No matter where you play, your innate quality will not be significantly impacted. NOW HEAR THIS. The higher level of ball you play, the faster your learned skills will develop. But only to the level that your innate ability allows.
There is no learned skill that a rec player with innate qualities cannot pick up on the full sized diamond in the year before HS tryouts. If a player on the full sized diamond shows potential it is then he should be playing with and against the best players that he can. Before that time it is all rec ball.
People dealing in absolutes talking about 13 year olds are in unchartered waters.
quote:NOW HEAR THIS. The higher level of ball you play, the faster your learned skills will develop. But only to the level that your innate ability allows.
Exactly and that is why travel ball is the best route to go. The sooner your so called innate ability is exposed to better coaching and higher level of competition the more likely you will strive to reach your potential. Daque do you hear that ?
quote:Originally posted by Daque:
There are so many variables it is difficult to draw any reliable conclusions about the fate of 13 year old players. [.....] They are just too young yet to draw any meaningful conclusions.
Then:
quote:The big factor is innate qualities, not learned skills.
Seems to me that these two statements are logically inconsistent. How can you be sure that the capability of an older player is mostly due to innate qualities if you can't recognize those innate qualities in him as a younger player? If the purported innate qualiites weren't apparent at an early age, isn't it equally plausible to believe those later displayed capabilites were learned rather than innate?
Let's take a look at a two year old. The innate qualities are there since they are hereditary. But they are not yet developed to the degree that they can be recognized. Foot speed, height, arm strength for throwing, eye hand coordination, etc. The learned skills at this age are nonexistant.
As adolescence comes along, a clearer picture develops as to what the final product will be. This is generally around age 16 years.
A kid who is age 12 throwing 75mph strikes and who stands 5'7" tall may be about through. He may be well into adolescence, end up at 5'9", and have an 80mph fastball.
On the other side of the coin there is the same aged kid who weighs 80#, is 5'6" tall, throws 62mph, and has not yet entered adolescence. He could well end up at 6'4" with a 92 mph fastball and run like a deer. Or not. It is too soon to say.
Innate baseball atttributes are inborn. They are almost impopssible to project into adulthood before about age 16. Learned skills are just that. But how refined they will ultimately become depends on the limitations of his innate ability.
Think about a person with an IQ of 140. He was born with that. He can be taught to use the ability. No matter how hard a kid with an IQ of 100 tries, no matter how much tutoring, he will never reach the level of academic achievement level possible for the first kid.
Certain things are inborn and other things are learned. A 5'4" full grown basketball player aspiring to play in the NBA is snookered by his genetics. Such is life.
As adolescence comes along, a clearer picture develops as to what the final product will be. This is generally around age 16 years.
A kid who is age 12 throwing 75mph strikes and who stands 5'7" tall may be about through. He may be well into adolescence, end up at 5'9", and have an 80mph fastball.
On the other side of the coin there is the same aged kid who weighs 80#, is 5'6" tall, throws 62mph, and has not yet entered adolescence. He could well end up at 6'4" with a 92 mph fastball and run like a deer. Or not. It is too soon to say.
Innate baseball atttributes are inborn. They are almost impopssible to project into adulthood before about age 16. Learned skills are just that. But how refined they will ultimately become depends on the limitations of his innate ability.
Think about a person with an IQ of 140. He was born with that. He can be taught to use the ability. No matter how hard a kid with an IQ of 100 tries, no matter how much tutoring, he will never reach the level of academic achievement level possible for the first kid.
Certain things are inborn and other things are learned. A 5'4" full grown basketball player aspiring to play in the NBA is snookered by his genetics. Such is life.
quote:But how refined they will ultimately become depends on the limitations of his innate ability
SO YOU WOULD LIMIT THIS BY HAVING A KID PLAY REC BALL. ?
Motor skills are taught and the sooner they are taught the better.
DAQUE,
Sounds like from all the posts that I have been reading from you in most of your replies, your hiding behind your wordy analogies and working overtime trying to justify rec ball and somehow minimizing the club/travel ball experience. Trust me if your kid was playing against the best kids in the nation, and you saw first hand how hard kids work to be on this level, you'd be singing a different song.
Inate, Inate, Inate....Pretty anonnoying! Definately pschyo babble.
The making of a ballplayer has alot more to do with experiences that shape the player. Playing in "serious competitive events", visiting different destinations, and learning early what is needed to in the way of having a work ethic at practice and outside of practice (kids working hard). Speed agility, strength training, swing program where you take 300 cuts off a tee weekly as well as the other 300 swings live or at BP. And yes, 11 and 12 yr olds are doing this!
And you simply don't see that with the rec player that plays the sport as a hobbyist 8-10 weeks out of the year. I have nothing against that at all, but your in a fog if you think it doesn't make a difference when you get into HS. I have seen the poorly prepared player try out, and in shock that he didn't make the freshman team......Thank the Daddy Ball Coaches for those kids who end up playing LL seniors vs. all the club kids who are on JV as freshman.
Right now, watching the LL World Series.....I can spot the players on each team that are true club kids based on their mechanics, mental toughness, and athletism.
The competition you see on ESPN with LL, is no comparision to the level of play you would find at a 12U USSSA Elite Championship or a Triple Crown National event at Steamboat Colorado or Omaha.....NOT EVEN CLOSE!
Keep the INATE stuff up, it's entertaining. Its like watching the Daddy Baller Coach approach the HS coach and seeing him try to talk his kid onto the squad......
Sounds like from all the posts that I have been reading from you in most of your replies, your hiding behind your wordy analogies and working overtime trying to justify rec ball and somehow minimizing the club/travel ball experience. Trust me if your kid was playing against the best kids in the nation, and you saw first hand how hard kids work to be on this level, you'd be singing a different song.
Inate, Inate, Inate....Pretty anonnoying! Definately pschyo babble.
The making of a ballplayer has alot more to do with experiences that shape the player. Playing in "serious competitive events", visiting different destinations, and learning early what is needed to in the way of having a work ethic at practice and outside of practice (kids working hard). Speed agility, strength training, swing program where you take 300 cuts off a tee weekly as well as the other 300 swings live or at BP. And yes, 11 and 12 yr olds are doing this!
And you simply don't see that with the rec player that plays the sport as a hobbyist 8-10 weeks out of the year. I have nothing against that at all, but your in a fog if you think it doesn't make a difference when you get into HS. I have seen the poorly prepared player try out, and in shock that he didn't make the freshman team......Thank the Daddy Ball Coaches for those kids who end up playing LL seniors vs. all the club kids who are on JV as freshman.
Right now, watching the LL World Series.....I can spot the players on each team that are true club kids based on their mechanics, mental toughness, and athletism.
The competition you see on ESPN with LL, is no comparision to the level of play you would find at a 12U USSSA Elite Championship or a Triple Crown National event at Steamboat Colorado or Omaha.....NOT EVEN CLOSE!
Keep the INATE stuff up, it's entertaining. Its like watching the Daddy Baller Coach approach the HS coach and seeing him try to talk his kid onto the squad......
I was listening to a MLB coach on radio yesterday. He was stressing the fact that even pro players need constant instruction. He starts with the footwork and then proceeds to the glove work for defense. He was also stressing the necessity for young ball players to get great early instruction to ingrain the basics so that a player can become proficient without thinking about what he should be doing in a given circumstance. To me even if a rec team could teach the basics it is rare that they have the expertise to do so. Playing with kids who are just there to have fun is a downer for an intense player.
BB: It is interesting how people read into posts. I do not ever remember advocating rec ball any more than I have travel. Prior to the full sized diamond I do not believe it is important which a player chooses.
I would hate to see a good player who is playing rec ball get discouraged from trying out for HS because he couldn't play travel. That is why I continue to harp that travel on the small diamond is not critical to making HS. I have enjoyed coaching both.
Whether you and others accept the importance of innate qualities is of no concern. I am writing to the kids who read posts here. For the parents who have spent a lot of money on travel it is only logical that they see learned skills and being more important. They are expecting a return on their investment.
The better players naturally gravitate to travel for stiffer competition and because they enjoy playing more games than rec allows. But some do not. You just do not grasp the roles of innate ability and learned skills and where each plays into the equation.
I wish you all well and hope that we can share opinions without getting personal. I will debate but not argue and those who attack personally are on my ignore list.
I would hate to see a good player who is playing rec ball get discouraged from trying out for HS because he couldn't play travel. That is why I continue to harp that travel on the small diamond is not critical to making HS. I have enjoyed coaching both.
Whether you and others accept the importance of innate qualities is of no concern. I am writing to the kids who read posts here. For the parents who have spent a lot of money on travel it is only logical that they see learned skills and being more important. They are expecting a return on their investment.
The better players naturally gravitate to travel for stiffer competition and because they enjoy playing more games than rec allows. But some do not. You just do not grasp the roles of innate ability and learned skills and where each plays into the equation.
I wish you all well and hope that we can share opinions without getting personal. I will debate but not argue and those who attack personally are on my ignore list.
quote:That is why I continue to harp that travel on the small diamond is not critical to making HS
That is why we harp back at your opinion which is wrong. Travel ball can be quite inexpensive and still provide decent competition and coaching where rec in most cases provides neither. Trying to break into a travel or HS team can be very difficult if not impossible.
(((((((((((((((((SIGH))))))))))))))))))))
There is reading into a post, and then there is reading between the lines. And for the kids that are reading these posts.....GET THE HECK OUT OF REC BALL if your wanting to play High School!!!!
MOST KIDS WHO DON'T STUDY or PREPARE FOR THE SAT will not do as good as the ones that do....Same exact thing in all sports.....Reps, work, high level instruction, game situations, and serious work ethic is the typcial club player at age 13/14, not the rec player on a smaller/larger diamond....
Hey Bobble, your exactly spot on....In our area, 100 kids typcially try out for the Frshman baseball team. We have parents transferring their kids into schools 30 miles away just to have a shot at the freshman team, it riducolus....But the players that have had those teachings, and exposed to the club/travel system are being asked as they enter 8th grade, WHAT SCHOOL ARE YOU GOING TO....Because they want your son! Crazy!!!
Coaches in our area already know who the talented incoming freshmen are, and these are the kids that basically make the program in August, some 6 months before the official tryout notice. These kids commit, run daily, in the weight room, and working hard on their game.
Usually, about 2 frshman make varsity, 3-6 make JV, and about 16 make the freshman team. The other 76 rec players get the opportunity to do track or re-enter Little League Seniors program. The ****ed off daddy coaches who are in disbelief, usually form a club team, that typcially lasts about 4 tournaments with a 1-11 record and they usually disband, as that is what they are usually about, winning vs. player development.
But hey, INATE is a good thing, you gotta have hope and you gotta believe your kid has a shot.One thing for sure, in High School the coach does not have time for project kids who are behind the curve. Its a 20 game season, and its about being successful on the field, and that usually means winning!
GOD BLESS....Apologize if you thought I got personal, wasn't my intention...Just feel passionate about preparing a young man, for whatever he choses to do and giving him the best shot to succeed.........
There is reading into a post, and then there is reading between the lines. And for the kids that are reading these posts.....GET THE HECK OUT OF REC BALL if your wanting to play High School!!!!
MOST KIDS WHO DON'T STUDY or PREPARE FOR THE SAT will not do as good as the ones that do....Same exact thing in all sports.....Reps, work, high level instruction, game situations, and serious work ethic is the typcial club player at age 13/14, not the rec player on a smaller/larger diamond....
Hey Bobble, your exactly spot on....In our area, 100 kids typcially try out for the Frshman baseball team. We have parents transferring their kids into schools 30 miles away just to have a shot at the freshman team, it riducolus....But the players that have had those teachings, and exposed to the club/travel system are being asked as they enter 8th grade, WHAT SCHOOL ARE YOU GOING TO....Because they want your son! Crazy!!!
Coaches in our area already know who the talented incoming freshmen are, and these are the kids that basically make the program in August, some 6 months before the official tryout notice. These kids commit, run daily, in the weight room, and working hard on their game.
Usually, about 2 frshman make varsity, 3-6 make JV, and about 16 make the freshman team. The other 76 rec players get the opportunity to do track or re-enter Little League Seniors program. The ****ed off daddy coaches who are in disbelief, usually form a club team, that typcially lasts about 4 tournaments with a 1-11 record and they usually disband, as that is what they are usually about, winning vs. player development.
But hey, INATE is a good thing, you gotta have hope and you gotta believe your kid has a shot.One thing for sure, in High School the coach does not have time for project kids who are behind the curve. Its a 20 game season, and its about being successful on the field, and that usually means winning!
GOD BLESS....Apologize if you thought I got personal, wasn't my intention...Just feel passionate about preparing a young man, for whatever he choses to do and giving him the best shot to succeed.........
DAQUE, Just read your public profile. You are obviously a long time veteran of being around the game of baseball, be it a fan, a coach, a parent.
Just thought I would share a little insight into youth baseball. By no means, do I claim to be an expert but the rise of club/travel year round baseball is somewhat new (at least within Arizona). It has always been there in some form or another, but it has grown tremendosuly and exploded in popularity during the last 12 years. It is a fact, just check out the USSSA baseball site and view the thousands of teams in all age divisons, levels, and states...IT WILL BLOW YOUR MIND....And there are dozens of other sanctioned youth baseball organizations....Little League does not have the market share it once had back in the day!
To give you an example of how different organized baseball was between my 21yr old and 13 yr old. My older son didn't have the travel/club opportunities that my younger son has and enjoys currently.
They are only 8 years apart....Older one played LL, 15 games a year, fall ball was just getting popular and that was real recreational. You had middle school, and high school. The talented players got noticed out of HS, and offered some summer travel teams with American Legion, etc.....
My younger son started T-ball at 4, when my older son at age 12 went the s****r route.
Younger son went to USSSA World Series 8U Kid Pitch tournament in california. Then played an average of 70 games a year until age 11. Went to Cooperstown 3 years in a row, played in vegas 4 times, played in California 4 times, played in Dominican Republic last year for a week. This past summer, played in Colorado, Omaha, and turned down an invite to play in Florida, and Cooperstown again. LEft Little league when he was in the 2nd grade, and have played exclusively club/travel, about 100-120 games annually - we shut down for 2 mandatory rest cycles that last 6-8 weeks each. Our fall season is short by design to refine and work on the game. The Spring and Summer, our team is coming for you "mentality".
Just recently, he just recieved an invite to play more international baseball for a 14U team. Obviously, a great honor. Guess what, he never has played 60/90 before. Guess what again, the experience he has as a 12U on 50/80, along with some PONY experience playing up 13U on 54/80 has in fact prepared him for the bigger diamond. YEs, he will have to make an adjustment, but his skill set that has been developed over the last 6-7 yrs is what the coaches see. We all know all kids will have to make the adjustment to the bigger field.
Bragging, sure I am, very proud of him, of course. God bless his energy and desire. Glad I can support it, and sacrifice for what my son wants. But the point is my older son didn't have these opportunites, they didn't exist in our area. There weren;t websites and message boards when my older son was going through his little league days. That is how much Club/travel ball has EXPLODED.
Do you think for one moment, that a rec player (and I will use my older son as an example) would fare well showing up only playing 15-20 games a year in a more relaxed, average competitive atmosphere, diamond size aside????
The world has changed, the famous rec player that you may have known 10, 20, 3o yrs ago that was just a great athlete, and could compete for a spot is not the reality today with the type of players coming out of the club side of the business.....Yes, its a business...and I think that your belief system would be ideal, if this was the same sport you grew up with. It has changed on so many levels thanks to the club explosion!
This is true for ALL sports, not just youth baseball....Geez, have you seen what they are doing with 3 yr girls and beauty pageants??? The whole Society has blown up.....At least the baseball moms and dads that support club ball aren;t on that level yet!!!!!
Just thought I would share a little insight into youth baseball. By no means, do I claim to be an expert but the rise of club/travel year round baseball is somewhat new (at least within Arizona). It has always been there in some form or another, but it has grown tremendosuly and exploded in popularity during the last 12 years. It is a fact, just check out the USSSA baseball site and view the thousands of teams in all age divisons, levels, and states...IT WILL BLOW YOUR MIND....And there are dozens of other sanctioned youth baseball organizations....Little League does not have the market share it once had back in the day!
To give you an example of how different organized baseball was between my 21yr old and 13 yr old. My older son didn't have the travel/club opportunities that my younger son has and enjoys currently.
They are only 8 years apart....Older one played LL, 15 games a year, fall ball was just getting popular and that was real recreational. You had middle school, and high school. The talented players got noticed out of HS, and offered some summer travel teams with American Legion, etc.....
My younger son started T-ball at 4, when my older son at age 12 went the s****r route.
Younger son went to USSSA World Series 8U Kid Pitch tournament in california. Then played an average of 70 games a year until age 11. Went to Cooperstown 3 years in a row, played in vegas 4 times, played in California 4 times, played in Dominican Republic last year for a week. This past summer, played in Colorado, Omaha, and turned down an invite to play in Florida, and Cooperstown again. LEft Little league when he was in the 2nd grade, and have played exclusively club/travel, about 100-120 games annually - we shut down for 2 mandatory rest cycles that last 6-8 weeks each. Our fall season is short by design to refine and work on the game. The Spring and Summer, our team is coming for you "mentality".
Just recently, he just recieved an invite to play more international baseball for a 14U team. Obviously, a great honor. Guess what, he never has played 60/90 before. Guess what again, the experience he has as a 12U on 50/80, along with some PONY experience playing up 13U on 54/80 has in fact prepared him for the bigger diamond. YEs, he will have to make an adjustment, but his skill set that has been developed over the last 6-7 yrs is what the coaches see. We all know all kids will have to make the adjustment to the bigger field.
Bragging, sure I am, very proud of him, of course. God bless his energy and desire. Glad I can support it, and sacrifice for what my son wants. But the point is my older son didn't have these opportunites, they didn't exist in our area. There weren;t websites and message boards when my older son was going through his little league days. That is how much Club/travel ball has EXPLODED.
Do you think for one moment, that a rec player (and I will use my older son as an example) would fare well showing up only playing 15-20 games a year in a more relaxed, average competitive atmosphere, diamond size aside????
The world has changed, the famous rec player that you may have known 10, 20, 3o yrs ago that was just a great athlete, and could compete for a spot is not the reality today with the type of players coming out of the club side of the business.....Yes, its a business...and I think that your belief system would be ideal, if this was the same sport you grew up with. It has changed on so many levels thanks to the club explosion!
This is true for ALL sports, not just youth baseball....Geez, have you seen what they are doing with 3 yr girls and beauty pageants??? The whole Society has blown up.....At least the baseball moms and dads that support club ball aren;t on that level yet!!!!!
we tend to lump all players into our beliefs about travel, rec ball. all players aren't created equal.
being devils advocate let me ask a few questions.
are players better just because they play travel ball? (maybe it's the travel?
)
are just the better players playing travel?
should every player play travel, regardles of talent?
being devils advocate let me ask a few questions.
are players better just because they play travel ball? (maybe it's the travel?
)are just the better players playing travel?
should every player play travel, regardles of talent?
I love travel baseball and have had great fun on all sorts of travel teams with all three of my sons.
That said, I totally agree with Daque. Other than the fun, travel ball matters not at all before the field gets bigger. Players simply change too much, and in the end pure talent is the determining factor. In fact, I would say that what 12 and under travel ball provides is a great misread of what is to come and, perhaps, allows a less-talented, but well-seasoned player to play a little bit longer than his talent would otherwise allow. But only a little bit.
It is like hockey before and after checking begins (also around age 13). Great players pre-checking do not always remain great players. Baseball players who are great because they are big when they are young do not always remain great.
The last point I will make about baseball -- at least here in Arizona -- is that high school baseball is far, far more important that travel baseball. In fact, it is impossible here in AZ to play travel baseball at any kind of meaningful level during the high school season because even if you had a team there would be hardly anyone to play -- they are all playing high school baseball, at least the good players are.
Connie Mack is important and valuable in the summer, for sure, but it lacks the consistency and commitment. And so, so much of the rest of it (including lots of USA Baseball stuff) exists too much to simply make money for someone.
So, as much as I have enjoyed and continued to love travel baseball, it is far more important to those involved at any given time than the reality of the situation. Just because you play travel baseball does not mean that you will be a good player, a high school varsity player. And it is far from the only way to develop talent.
That said, I totally agree with Daque. Other than the fun, travel ball matters not at all before the field gets bigger. Players simply change too much, and in the end pure talent is the determining factor. In fact, I would say that what 12 and under travel ball provides is a great misread of what is to come and, perhaps, allows a less-talented, but well-seasoned player to play a little bit longer than his talent would otherwise allow. But only a little bit.
It is like hockey before and after checking begins (also around age 13). Great players pre-checking do not always remain great players. Baseball players who are great because they are big when they are young do not always remain great.
The last point I will make about baseball -- at least here in Arizona -- is that high school baseball is far, far more important that travel baseball. In fact, it is impossible here in AZ to play travel baseball at any kind of meaningful level during the high school season because even if you had a team there would be hardly anyone to play -- they are all playing high school baseball, at least the good players are.
Connie Mack is important and valuable in the summer, for sure, but it lacks the consistency and commitment. And so, so much of the rest of it (including lots of USA Baseball stuff) exists too much to simply make money for someone.
So, as much as I have enjoyed and continued to love travel baseball, it is far more important to those involved at any given time than the reality of the situation. Just because you play travel baseball does not mean that you will be a good player, a high school varsity player. And it is far from the only way to develop talent.
Daque, I hear everything you're saying. I understand.
People, he's not against travelball. All he's saying is that a lot of people think success in TB ALWAYS equates to success in H.S., and it's simply not true. The references to the big field are more about age and maturity than anything else. A lot can change at the age we reach the big field. I've been in T.B. for 5 years. I can tell you that all the big hard throwers that "dazzled" everybodys minds when they were 9-12 years old have suddenly dissapeared.It's funny that these overgrown boys who's parent were all 6' or under are suddenly covered in hair with a deep voice and done growing at 13 yrs old.Guess what, they aren't throwing it by ANYONE now! They're getting BOMBED! Baseball isn't fun anymore. They didn't learn good hitting mechanics because they didn't need them before.
My son, well he's 5' 6" and doesn't have a hair on him yet. Oh, and because he couldn't throw it by them all these years, he learned to "pitch". He's getting people out. Oh, and mechanics? Yeah, he needed them to hit when everyone was bigger than him. Try throwing one by him. AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. Good mechanics are the rule. Oh yeah, I'm 6' 1" and at least as big as most other parents we're around. I knew that these boys who dwarfed my son would end up looking him in the eye someday. I enterd H.S. 5'4" 120lbs and not a hair on me. My son will most likely do the same.
So to recap, what happened on the small field probably won't equate to the H.S. diamond because those kids who grew faster have quit growing. They didn't need good mechanics (even in T.B.) to be successful and now baseball isn't fun because they aren't dominating it. Can they get better? Sure they can. But there are no guarentees.
Daque, I do think baseball knowelege learned in travelball will be hard to overcome in H.S. The season is just too short here in the midwest. The rec league boys will probably wind up being outfielders and role players unless they work hard on their own.
People, he's not against travelball. All he's saying is that a lot of people think success in TB ALWAYS equates to success in H.S., and it's simply not true. The references to the big field are more about age and maturity than anything else. A lot can change at the age we reach the big field. I've been in T.B. for 5 years. I can tell you that all the big hard throwers that "dazzled" everybodys minds when they were 9-12 years old have suddenly dissapeared.It's funny that these overgrown boys who's parent were all 6' or under are suddenly covered in hair with a deep voice and done growing at 13 yrs old.Guess what, they aren't throwing it by ANYONE now! They're getting BOMBED! Baseball isn't fun anymore. They didn't learn good hitting mechanics because they didn't need them before.
My son, well he's 5' 6" and doesn't have a hair on him yet. Oh, and because he couldn't throw it by them all these years, he learned to "pitch". He's getting people out. Oh, and mechanics? Yeah, he needed them to hit when everyone was bigger than him. Try throwing one by him. AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. Good mechanics are the rule. Oh yeah, I'm 6' 1" and at least as big as most other parents we're around. I knew that these boys who dwarfed my son would end up looking him in the eye someday. I enterd H.S. 5'4" 120lbs and not a hair on me. My son will most likely do the same.
So to recap, what happened on the small field probably won't equate to the H.S. diamond because those kids who grew faster have quit growing. They didn't need good mechanics (even in T.B.) to be successful and now baseball isn't fun because they aren't dominating it. Can they get better? Sure they can. But there are no guarentees.
Daque, I do think baseball knowelege learned in travelball will be hard to overcome in H.S. The season is just too short here in the midwest. The rec league boys will probably wind up being outfielders and role players unless they work hard on their own.