Skip to main content

Now before I start please know that I realize that this is ultimately up to the coaches & ours to stay or go-- but, we are parents have been asked for some input by the coaches. Apparently our coaches and manager cannot agree completely this year.

So here goes we are a 14U "Select Travel Elite"(whatever the right term is) who play in the Major division. The debate is that at this age, the year before HS, is it more important to be seen and known locally(in state) or is traveling as much as possible(we are talking ALOT more 2-3times more than years past), & as far as possible to see what else is out there more important. Dates & trips have been kinda thrown out there for parents to consider before the parents meeting in two weeks. Parents are expected to still travel with the boys & the coaches have boys on the team too.

Also some of these dates conflict with HS fall sports tryouts and mandatory camps. The one coach said to the mom who brought that point up that the boys will have to committ to HS fall sports(football, s****r, etc..) or travel baseball this year. Spring will be different when HS baseball starts up since that is our sons goal. I thought that was harsh since they have never been in HS or had the chance to tryout for those sports.

One more thing I should mention is that we as a team have found a gold mine of a fundraiser and our bank account is very healthy-some parents think that one coach is 'drunk' on the money we are bringing is therefore thinking bigger, better(?) & more expensive travel this year.

Some opinions please
"A hot dog at the ballgame beats roast beef at the Ritz." ~Humphrey Bogart
Last edited {1}
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

quote:
Originally posted by Lefty34:

The debate is that at this age, the year before HS, is it more important to be seen and known locally(in state) or is traveling as much as possible(we are talking ALOT more 2-3times more than years past), &
Some opinions please


Seen by whom? For what purpose?

Who cares about 14U baseball…..other than the players, parents and apparently coaches over exuberant coaches.
Lefty, what does your son want to do? No doubt travel is exciting and fun, and sometimes travel teams are better than freshman/JV teams. But there is something about wearing that HS unie and being part of the experience that is special.

Our situation was a little different from yours in that 2B had the opportunity to play at the HS level while playing 13U and 14U (small K-12 school), but I think the basic premise still applies. When we were playing 12U to 14U (not very long ago) it did seem like it was the most important thing in the world. And we weren't on what you would call a Select Elite whatever team - just a pretty darn good local team (2006 fall 14U AAU D2 state champs, 5th at 14U AAU nationals). But just a short year later, as BOF says, we learned the hard lesson that no one really cares as much about what our son did at 14U (or any other level) as we parents think they should. Smile But the benefit of playing at that level (as opposed to rec ball) certainly did pay off when the time came for HS tryouts.

From the time 2B had the opportunity to play at the HS level, he always chose to play HS during the regular season, then returned to his travel team when the season was over. The travel coaches didn't like it too much, but always seemed happy to have him back for the summer and fall. Now that 2B is actually in HS, the 16U travel team doesn't operate in any formal way until the HS season is over because players generally aren't allowed by HS coaches to do both at the same time.

Looks like your travel coach isn't going to be as flexible as ours was, and that's really too bad. Our coaches felt the way redbird5 does - the reason they play travel ball is to make the HS team. I think the players on your team should have the opportunity to provide input.
Last edited by 2Bmom
The only thing that matter in 14U is becoming a better player in preparation for high school ball. Playing locally provides the high school coach an option to come see him play.

When a kid gets to high school he may have to make choices on sports. In some high schools it's hard to play multiple sports based on the demands of the coaches. My son is missing the winter physical training for baseball due to basketball. The coach gave him the routine to do on his own time.
I have a little different way of looking at it. Our program sets up our teams by grade- not age. Therefore, we do not have conflicts with HS baseball during the high school season. Secondly, I don't think 14&U baseball is solely to get them prepared for high school baseball.

HS baseball is great. Nothing like playing with your classmates and school pride. That said, I hope we are starting to prepare them for the level after high school. Most schools (there are some excellent exceptions) are not set up to prepare them for the next level.

I think schools and amateur programs outside high school should work in concert with players. Unfortunately, you get coaches on both sides who get greedy and don't have the best interest of the player in mind.
quote:
Originally posted by ncball:
...HS baseball is great. Nothing like playing with your classmates and school pride. That said, I hope we are starting to prepare them for the level after high school. Most schools (there are some excellent exceptions) are not set up to prepare them for the next level...


I agree. I guess I should have said HS and beyond. We have been fortunate to have some great kids on our roster. By being successful as a team, we always face each team's #1 pitcher. Facing this competition prepares them for more than just HS.

The only exposure we care about is to higher levels of competition, not college coaches at 14U.
quote:
Originally posted by YHF:
Lefty, if you don't mind sharing I'd love to know what type of fundraising you are doing?

Thanks.


HandyRandy & YHF- I don't mind sharing- we are located near StLouis and a major sports/concert venue-this venue has allowed groups to "volunteer" to work in the concession stands there. We are paid 10percent of our gross sales in that concession stand for the night. Each parent who works then gets their share of that $ distributed into accouts set up for each boy. Any tips made are saved for a parents night out. We work/volunteer for a couple events a month. 4-8 hours a month sure beats cookie dough or candy selling-I think that takes almost that much time to raise the kind of money travel requires.

Win win we earn money for the team and the venue can cut back on paid employees and benefits.
Last edited by Lefty34
quote:
HS baseball is great. Nothing like playing with your classmates and school pride. That said, I hope we are starting to prepare them for the level after high school. Most schools (there are some excellent exceptions) are not set up to prepare them for the next level.


Agreed...most definitely. High school ball is a step on the journey to the next level, and pre-HS travel ball can certainly instill the fundamentals, competitiveness, game savvy, and work ethic that can make a big difference in the player succeeding beyond high school. But as has been said so many times here on HSBBW, and what ncball alluded to, it is only one piece of the puzzle. At the same time, HS ball is where they learn to balance grades and athletics and a social life, and set priorities - the things that they will have to do on their own in college. It is also where they can - to a level higher than travel ball IMHO - be a part of something bigger than themselves and their circle of friends and teammates.
quote:
Also some of these dates conflict with HS fall sports tryouts and mandatory camps. The one coach said to the mom who brought that point up that the boys will have to committ to HS fall sports(football, s****r, etc..) or travel baseball this year. Spring will be different when HS baseball starts up since that is our sons goal. I thought that was harsh since they have never been in HS or had the chance to tryout for those sports.


The coach sounds like a moron. This sounds like a coach in it for the wrong reasons. I would bet his son is a star player.
For many teams, 14U is an odd situation, because some players will have started high school and others are still in 8th grade. So in the spring, the 8th graders may have some difficulty in getting together enough players to field a team, at least in states that require HS players to only HS ball. Large organizations may have two 14U teams and they can combine the 8th graders during the HS season.

In my opinion, players should also play other sports, certainly through the freshman year. It helps develop coordination, conditioning, and mental freshness. It will usually help a player make the team, because coaches like competitors. Kids who play football or sokker successfully also gain a reputation as an athlete before baseball tryouts. It helps.

Does this mean that a travel team can't travel? Not really, at least in our experience. The high schools here tend to have their freshman games mid-week or on Friday evenings. Travel ball tends to be on the weekends. My son plays on the freshman team in ncball's organization, and also played HS football. He missed a couple of games (not tournaments) because of schedule, and one tournament due to a mild football injury.

I think there is value in playing against strong competition, and it may be necessary to travel to find the competition. But it isn't necessary to have 100% of the team attend every game of every tournament.
Last edited by 3FingeredGlove
Lefty34,
You have gotten good advice from all. Athlete and their parents will always be forced to pick and choose as which “route” to take. High school baseball and select summer baseball are two different routes and they will conflict along the way. Other sports, social events, family matters, academic goals and personal desires will also conflict with both summer and high school baseball --- you have to look at each choice and determine which is the most important at that time. Pro active parents (and players) can expect to make choices that “step on some toes” during the pre-high school and high school years. I don’t know of any way to avoid this.
Fungo
Rising freshman can tryout for Legion/Summer League ball, you might want to check into that as well. A big send off for the players might be fun though.

Maybe, you could schedule tournaments out of state that don't conflict, saving the money for 15u, or possibly forming a showcase team at 16? Money makes some people nuts, so a two year long term wait may not work. If the boys are playing next spring at school, they won't be playing travel. As stated earlier, it is a transition time for everyone.

High School comes first imo.

(We just played our last with son's travel team. I'm very sad about it - we had a great combination of parents. The team was pretty good too. It's hard to say good bye.)
Last edited by 55mom
Travel teams are really considered showcase teams. High School is for school pride and recognition within that district.A smart high school coach will be glad to see kids play select if he wants what is best for the kid.If a kid wants to go to the next level he really needs to try to get on one of the " premeire teams". The problem these days eveyone call their travels teams select.
I do not think a kid should play select during the regular high school baseball season.That should be kept for summer or fall. If the high school coach thinks it is a conflict in the off season then he is being selfish.That should be a choice that the parents and kid makes.
quote:
Originally posted by Play hard:
Travel teams are really considered showcase teams. High School is for school pride and recognition within that district.A smart high school coach will be glad to see kids play select if he wants what is best for the kid.If a kid wants to go to the next level he really needs to try to get on one of the " premeire teams". The problem these days eveyone call their travels teams select.
I do not think a kid should play select during the regular high school baseball season.That should be kept for summer or fall. If the high school coach thinks it is a conflict in the off season then he is being selfish.That should be a choice that the parents and kid makes.


Per your own admission all travel teams are not "premier."

Go back and re-read the original post- the problem is "conflicting" schedules. Many States have student requirements that restrict them from participating in non-school sports during the HS season. The main reason for this is the Interscholastic Athletic Agencies found TB and their coaches are tearing the kids up with 100 game schedules. Much-maybe some- of the HS coaches' mission is program development. TB is all about winning.
quote:
Originally posted by JakeP:
Many States have student requirements that restrict them from participating in non-school sports during the HS season. The main reason for this is the Interscholastic Athletic Agencies found TB and their coaches are tearing the kids up with 100 game schedules. Much-maybe some- of the HS coaches' mission is program development. TB is all about winning.


I can't speak for most states, but in CA "a student on a high school team becomes ineligible if the student competes in a contest on an “outside” team, in the same sport, during the student’s high school season of sport". The rule applies to all team sports with a few exceptions, such as flag football is OK while participating in HS tackle football.

I believe the prohibition well predates the popularization of travel baseball, and 100 game baseball travel schedules really aren't the cause.

I sharply disagree that TB is "all about winning". All teams prefer to win, whether travel or HS. The two travel organizations that my son(s) have played with certainly like to win, and they do so by identifying good players, and then developing those player's individual and team skills. Son's present TB organization seems to get more satisfaction from successfully preparing players for college/draft than from winning. The latter tends to be a by-product of the former.
Last edited by 3FingeredGlove
quote:
Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
quote:
Originally posted by JakeP:
Many States have student requirements that restrict them from participating in non-school sports during the HS season. The main reason for this is the Interscholastic Athletic Agencies found TB and their coaches are tearing the kids up with 100 game schedules. Much-maybe some- of the HS coaches' mission is program development. TB is all about winning.


I can't speak for most states, but in CA "a student on a high school team becomes ineligible if the student competes in a contest on an “outside” team, in the same sport, during the student’s high school season of sport". The rule applies to all team sports with a few exceptions, such as flag football is OK while participating in HS tackle football.

I believe the prohibition well predates the popularization of travel baseball, and 100 game baseball travel schedules really aren't the cause.

I sharply disagree that TB is "all about winning". All teams prefer to win, whether travel or HS. The two travel organizations that my son(s) have played with certainly like to win, and they do so by identifying good players, and then developing those player's individual and team skills. Son's present TB organization seems to get more satisfaction from successfully preparing players for college/draft than from winning. The latter tends to be a by-product of the former.


Here's some interesting reading
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 20, 2006

Who’s Killing Kids’ Sports?
By David Oliver Relin
Published: August 7, 2005

Two years ago, when he was still in high school, pro basketball prospect LeBron James inked an endorsement contract with Nike worth between $90 million and $100 million. Five days later, the $1 million contract Nike offered to Maryland s****r prodigy Freddy Adu seemed almost ordinary, except for one detail—Freddy was just 13 years old.

In the summer of 2003, Jeret Adair, a 15-year-old pitcher from Atlanta, started 64 games with his elite traveling baseball team—more than most pro players pitch in an entire season. After the ligament in his elbow snapped, he had to undergo reconstructive surgery, a process once reserved for aging professional pitchers. In 2004, his doctor, James Andrews, performed similar surgery on 50 other high school pitchers.

Last March, Valerie Yianacopolus of Wakefield, Mass., was sentenced to one year of probation, including 50 hours of community service, and ordered to watch a sportsmanship video after she was found guilty of assaulting an 11-year-old boy who was cheering for the opposing team at her son’s Little League game. And in June, according to state police, Mark Downs, the coach of a youth T-ball team near Uniontown, Pa., allegedly offered one of his players $25 to throw a baseball at the head of a 9-year-old disabled teammate so the injured boy wouldn’t be able to play in an upcoming game. League rules mandate that every healthy child play at least three innings. “The coach was very competitive,” said State Trooper Thomas B. Broadwater. “He wanted to win.”

A Sports Culture Run Amok
Across the country, millions of children are being chewed up and spit out by a sports culture run amok. With pro scouts haunting the nation’s playgrounds in search of the next LeBron or Freddy, parents and coaches are conspiring to run youth-sports leagues like incubators for future professional athletes. Prepubescent athletes are experimenting with performance-enhancing drugs. Doctors are reporting sharp spikes in injuries caused by year-round specialization in a single sport at an early age. And all too often, the simple pleasure of playing sports is being buried beneath cutthroat competition.

“If I had to sum up the crisis in kids’ sports,” says J. Duke Albanese, Maine’s former commissioner of education, “I’d do it in one word—adults.”

Some adults, Albanese says, are pushing children toward unrealistic goals like college sports scholarships and pro contracts. According to National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) statistics, fewer than 2% of high school athletes will ever receive a college athletic scholarship. Only one in 13,000 high school athletes will ever receive a paycheck from a professional team.

“There is a terrible imbalance between the needs kids have and the needs of the adults running their sports programs,” says Dr. Bruce Svare, director of the National Institute for Sports Reform. “Above all, kids need to have fun. Instead, adults are providing unrealistic expectations and crushing pressure.”

As a result, Svare says, at a time when an epidemic of obesity is plaguing the nation’s youth, 70% of America’s children are abandoning organized sports by age 13. “The only way to reverse this crisis,” Svare argues, “is to fundamentally rethink the way America’s kids play organized sports.”

Is Change Possible?
Many communities are trying to change the way they approach children’s sports. Florida’s Jupiter-Tequesta Athletic Association, facing a rash of violent behavior by sports parents, now requires them to take an online course on how to behave at their children’s athletic events. School officials in Connecticut, concerned about the toll of too much focus on a single sport, instituted a statewide ban on students playing on a private travel team during the same season they play their sport in high school.

But no reform effort is more aggressive than that of the state of Maine, where educators, student athletes and others have teamed up to launch a counterrevolution called Sports Done Right. Led by J. Duke Albanese and Robert Cobb, dean of the University of Maine’s College of Education, and funded by a federal grant secured by U.S. Sen. Susan M. Collins, the project aims to radically remake Maine’s youth-sports culture and provide a model that the rest of America might emulate.

The Maine Challenge
Their first step is a sweeping campaign to dial down the kind of competition that leads many kids to drop out of sports at an early age. “I was a high school football coach—I know how badly communities want their teams to win,” Albanese says. “We’re not saying there’s anything wrong with competition. We’re saying what’s appropriate at the varsity level is out of bounds in grade school and middle school. That’s a time to encourage as many children as possible to play. Period.

”To do that, the Sports Done Right team held statewide summit meetings before producing an action plan. It chose 12 school districts as the program’s pilot sites, but so many other districts clamored to participate that it is now under way in dozens more.

The program has identified core principles that it insists must be present in a healthy sports environment for kids, including good sportsmanship, discouragement of early specialization and the assurance that teams below the varsity level make it their mission to develop the skills of every child on every team, to promote a lifelong involvement with sports.

Sports Done Right’s second task is to attack the two problems it says are most responsible for the crisis in kids’ sports—the behavior of parents and coaches.

Problem #1: Out-of-Control Adults
The behavior of adults has been at the center of the debate about reforming kids’ sports ever since 2002, when Thomas Junta of Reading, Mass., was convicted of beating Michael Costin to death during an argument at their sons’ youth hockey practice. “I’ve watched adult civility in youth sports spiral downward since the early 1990s,” says Doug Abrams, a law professor at the University of Missouri, who has tracked media reports of out-of-control sports parents for more than a decade. “At one time, adults who acted like lunatics were shunned as outcasts. But today, they are too often tolerated.”

The nearly 100 Maine students Parade interviewed recited a litany of incidents involving adults behaving badly, including examples of their own parents being removed from sporting events by police. Nate Chantrill, 17—a shot-putter and discus thrower at Edward Little High School in Auburn and a varsity football player—volunteers to coach a coed fifth-grade football team. “One game, a parent flipped out that we didn’t start his daughter,” Chantrill recalls. “He was screaming, using bad language and saying she’s the best player out there. Parents take this stuff way too seriously. Fifth-grade football is not the Super Bowl. It’s a place for your kid to learn some skills and have fun. One parent can ruin it for all the kids.”

That’s why each Sports Done Right district is holding training sessions to define out-of-bounds behavior at sporting events and requiring the parents of every student who plays to sign a compact promising to abide by higher standards of sportsmanship.

Problem #2: Poor Coaching
Dan Campbell, who has coached Edward Little’s track team to two state championships, says he sees too many of his peers pressing to win at all costs and neglecting their primary responsibility—to educate and inspire children. “One coach can destroy a kid for a lifetime,” he says. “I’ve seen it over and over.”

“I was at an AAU basketball game where the ref gave the coach a technical and threw him out of the game,” says Doug Joerss, who was starting center on Cony High School’s basketball team. “Then the coach swung at the ref. The kids ended up on the floor, getting into a huge brawl. You look up to coaches. Kids think, ‘If it’s OK for them to do it, it’s OK for me to do it.’ ”

A campaign to improve the quality of coaching is at the center of Sports Done Right. “The most powerful mentors kids have are coaches,” J. Duke Albanese says. “Coaches don’t even realize the extent of their influence.” He disparages the national trend to offer coaches salary incentives based on their won-lost records. Instead, Sports Done Right recommends compensation based on their level of training. And each pilot school district is encouraged to send coaches to continuing-education classes in subjects like leadership and child psychology.

Exporting Good Sense
Educators in 30 states have requested more information from Sports Done Right. “We think a small place like Maine is a perfect place to get kids’ sports culture under control,” says Albanese. “And if we can do that, maybe we can export the good sense Maine is famous for to the rest of the country.”

An example of that good sense recently occurred at a Sports Done Right pilot site. “An influential parent, a guy who volunteers to coach sixth-grade basketball, wanted the kids divided into an A and a B team, so he could coach just the elite kids,” says Stephen Rogers, the principal of Lyman Moore Middle School. “I said we weren’t going to separate the kids and discourage half of them. We were going to encourage all of our interested kids to play.”

“But we won’t win the championship,” the parent complained.

“I don’t really care,” Rogers replied. “We’re not talking about the Celtics. We’re talking about sixth-graders.”
________________________________________
How To Be a Good Sports Parent

Fixing the crisis in kids’ sports begins at home. Here are some tips from Sports Done Right to get parents started:

* Encourage your child, regardless of his or her degree of success or level of skill.

* Ensure a balance in your student athlete’s life, encouraging participation in multiple sports and activities while placing academics first.

* Emphasize enjoyment, development of skills and team play as the cornerstones of your child’s early sports experiences while reserving serious competition for the varsity level.

* Leave coaching to coaches and avoid placing too much pressure on your youngster about playing time and performance.

* Be realistic about your child’s future in sports, recognizing that only a select few earn a college scholarship, compete in the Olympics or sign a professional contract.

* Be there when your child looks to the sidelines for a positive role model.
Last edited by JakeP
Your article is one person's view of the world. A well coached travel team is about development for the next level. The talent on the team lends itself to winning. My son's 14U team, 16U in the fall was about getting players ready for high school. My daughter's 18U softball team's focus was showcase visibility for all players.
quote:
Originally posted by RJM:
Your article is one person's view of the world. A well coached travel team is about development for the next level. The talent on the team lends itself to winning. My son's 14U team, 16U in the fall was about getting players ready for high school. My daughter's 18U softball team's focus was showcase visibility for all players.


We were talking about a freshman so we should keep it in that context.

Anything done in moderation for the right reasons is helpful. Unfortunately more and more experts feel that excessive TB is one of the major reasons why arm injuries amoung prepubescent players are on the rise, but that topic has been beaten to death and as long as their are dilusional parents interested in winning the trend will continue. I asked college and high schools coaches at the World Baseball Convention what they felt the number one problem in youth baseball is right now, most agreed TB and excessive ball.

For the young man who the original post was about playing HS ball and then Legion is plenty of baseball for one year (approximately 40-50 games). During his Junior and Senior year he will need to attend some showcases.

Having been there as a parent (Youngest son still playing as an adult and now coaching), HS coach (22 Years total coaching)and clinician (15 years) I can't tell how many players I have seen destroyed by parents hiding behind the "we are getting them prepared for the next level" veil.

The bottom line with this particular thread is that a travel coach who shedules conflicting TB during HS ball season is in it for them not the kids.
Last edited by JakeP
Okay I have got a lot of good info. And Thank You,

The TB coaches conflicts come end of July begining of Aug 2008. He wants to try to be out of state at some "big" tournament at the same time as the boys who want to play football or s****r, for their schools, as freshman, need to be in mandatory camps or practices for tryouts for those HS teams. One mom thinks we should just approach the HS coaches and 'explain' that little Johnny wants to be out of state to play baseball and will be back soon.
My question is do the boys need those late summer 'big' out of town TB tournaments or should they be trying to impress coaches, get off on the good foot and make teams in other sports at their HS.

PS-our football & s****r coaches teach classes and coach other sports as well. If we ask for this permission would that leave a bad feeling with those coaches and team mates because of those special favors??? Could those bad feelings carry on beyond 2008 fall sports?

PSS Modad sent you a PM
Last edited by Lefty34
Jake- You are obviously biased. That's okay. What about the high school coach who makes it mandatory to play on the local legion team (disguise for extended high school team) instead of playing against better competition? The reality is that I have found most high school programs care more about winning in their program than they do the individual. Once the player is gone, so is the concern for the player. It's the quality amateur programs, as a rule, that are actually interested in the development of the player.

There are great high school programs and there are great amateur development programs (I detest the terms travel, premier, select, etc. and am looking for a better term- for now development programs). Start pitting one against the other like you are doing and you will exacerbate the problem that already exists with high school coaches having a "superiority complex".
Last edited by ncball
quote:
Originally posted by ncball:
Jake- You are obviously biased. That's okay.


Yes I am. I personally feel that TB is killing the game. As a HS coach I found HS and Legion to be enough. I found most TB parents to be a PITA. Most HS coaches could care less about what little Johnny did when he was U10TB. The only thing that matters is what he brings to the field the day he shows up for tryouts. The statistics and studies are there you need only to read. The article above is not ONE man's opinion it's the opinion of most every knowledable coach I speak with. Look, I've been there - both boys played - the youngest into college. One is now a coach himself. I see it as a former parent and a former HS coach and I offer my opinion from taht perspective. If you disagree so be it.

quote:
What about the high school coach who makes it mandatory to play on the local legion team (disguise for extended high school team) instead of playing against better competition?


This can no longer occur in our State and more and more Interscholastic State Organizations are restricting what a HS coach can do in the off-season. As a State Committee Member of American Legion Baseball I can find the requirements for your particular State. Here they can't have more than five players from their school if they coach both and ALBB cannot begin until the HS season is over.

quote:
The reality is that I have found most high school programs care more about winning in their program than they do the individual. Once the player is gone, so is the concern for the player. It's the quality amateur programs, as a rule, that are actually interested in the development of the player.
Respectfully disagree. What reality do you speak of. What HS coaches organization do you belong to? Becasue the organizations I'm associated with would disagree with you. When a coach is geographically bound they develop. Most HS coaches are in it for the long haul. I would wager a bet that 90% of the TB coaches are dads placating their own egos under the guise of "better ball." THEY are there to win.

quote:
There are great high school programs and there are great amateur development programs (I detest the terms travel, premier, select, etc. and am looking for a better term- for now development programs). Start pitting one against the other like you are doing and you will exacerbate the problem that already exists with high school coaches having a "superiority complex".


It has nothing to do with egos it has everything to do with uneducated coaches and over-zealous parents ruining arms by trying to get Little Johnny the edge. Google Little League Elbow, Tommy Johns and Little League Shoulder. Our coaches saw the graphic result of kids playing 50+ games a year in an annual
clinic I conduct. Speak with any of your local orthopedic offices and ask them what the fastest rising injury among youngsters is. If your son is a stud he will play HS ball no matter how much TB he plays. Talent has a hard time finding the shade. We have been having this argument for 20 years and every year there is a new batch of parents coming through the ranks chewing up good ball players.

I agree times have changed. To play college you need summer ball (Legion or a reasonable TB program)and you need to attend showcases starting in your junior year. But when they are young - Little League and sandlot are all they need. When we attend Showcases as coaches we just shake our heads at the parents who show up with the next Babe.

Hope this helps.
Last edited by JakeP
Jake- I'm not a parent. Coached about three years of high school and have run a summer/fall/winter program for 16 years that has been fortunate to have over a dozen big-leaguers and over 250 alumni play at the D1 college level. I also headed up the state of California for 10 years at the Jr. Sunbelt Classic. I'm also very fortunate to know dozens of D1 head coaches and recruiting coordinators on a first-name basis and communicate with them on a regular basis (as opposed to their high school coach). I have a little bit of experience here.

I understand that "TB" can be a bad thing. I also know that, at it's highest level, is far superior to high school and those programs are set up specifically for development and helping get the kids to the next level. A college coach's first call about a player is usually to the program he sees him play with. As you know, they are seen more during the summer/fall than they will ever be seen in the spring. That's the new landscape of baseball.

Amateur baseball has changed drastically. That said, I don't always agree with it. I've seen the things that you are talking about. I've also seen the abuse at the high school level as well. There are good and bad coaches at every level of baseball. To place blame on "TB" is ridiculous. We consult with two prominent Orthopedic doctors on a regular basis regarding our training as well as pitch workload versus recovery time. I don't know any high school program that does the same.

The next point is your comment about when to showcase. The time-line has moved up a full year. We have three kids from our program that have already committed and they are 2009 grads. The reality is that the sophomore year is a real key and colleges are making decisions and asking for commitments between their sophomore and junior years. BTW- I think that's a horrible trend but it is fact.

I'll leave you with this- We had a 16 year old pitcher from the central valley that was slated to play with us in the summer. The kid threw 10 innings every week for the whole high school season. 120 pitch counts followed by three more innings two days later were the norm. When summer came, the player was barred from playing with us because of the amount of innings he threw that spring. Who barred him? The same coach who abused him all spring!
Last edited by ncball
quote:
I personally feel that TB is killing the game. As a HS coach I found HS and Legion to be enough.
Travel ball isn't the problem. Excessive levels of travel ball may be the problem.

Everyone used to play Legion. It was the premier program. It's not the case anymore in some regions. Many of the better college prospects in our area are now passing on Legion for showcase teams. I'm not talking about daddyball travel. I'm talking about showcase ball like the programs people on this board are connected. I watched some Legion games this past summer. The quality is not what I remember when I played. I don't see future D1 and/or pro prospects.
quote:
One mom thinks we should just approach the HS coaches and 'explain' that little Johnny wants to be out of state to play baseball and will be back soon.
My question is do the boys need those late summer 'big' out of town TB tournaments or should they be trying to impress coaches, get off on the good foot and make teams in other sports at their HS.

PS-our football & s****r coaches teach classes and coach other sports as well. If we ask for this permission would that leave a bad feeling with those coaches and team mates because of those special favors??? Could those bad feelings carry on beyond 2008 fall sports?



NO! As a mom of one whose son has graduated after playing high school sports and has another now playing, you do not miss those August practices and tryouts as a freshman or any other level! You do not contact those football and s****r coaches and tell them you are playing baseball at 14! YES - it can leave a bad feeling - They do not care - please start off on the right foot for those coaches. Also at our school, they pick up their pads and get their football lockers early - they need good pads/helmets and lockers next to their buddies if possible.

It is so important for those freshman boys to be involved in athletics - the influence those football/s****r coaches have over those kids is amazing. If coaches find out Little Johnny is acting up in English - Little Johnny will be running extra laps in football that day - a lot better discipline than Mom getting upset about the teacher calling complaining. (Every school is different - but for the most part those coaches are in it because they love kids!)

If they want to stick to just baseball after that freshman year - that's great but let them try one year of high school football or another sport. It's also good to have a sport to fall back on if the freshman does not make the high school baseball team.

At this early date, I'd just tell the travel coach that your son will not be available in August for the tournaments - he can then plan accordingly to get subs if needed. There are lots of showcase opportunities in the junior summer year that count!
quote:
Originally posted by ncball:I understand that "TB" can be a bad thing. I also know that, at it's highest level, is far superior to high school and those programs are set up specifically for development and helping get the kids to the next level. A college coach's first call about a player is usually to the program he sees him play with. As you know, they are seen more during the summer/fall than they will ever be seen in the spring. That's the new landscape of baseball.


We agree more than we disagree here. At some point if that is what a player wants to do he has to comitt. The trend of it getting younger and younger is however problematic. And the model does not produce more players as the number of professional players in America is somewhat constant. What we create is more players who thought they shouls have had a shot. With your experience - I am certain you see this.

quote:
Amateur baseball has changed drastically. That said, I don't always agree with it. I've seen the things that you are talking about. I've also seen the abuse at the high school level as well. There are good and bad coaches at every level of baseball.
Again we agree. The difference between HS ball and TB is that HS typically has more regulations and supervision attached to it. Here in CT our certification process is lengthy and we are evelauated each season by the AD who usually recieces heavy input from parents and principles.
quote:
We consult with two prominent Orthopedic doctors on a regular basis regarding our training as well as pitch workload versus recovery time. I don't know any high school program that does the same.

Again with your background you must realize you are the exception rather than the rule here. Anyways - good for you - more coaches should do this.

quote:
The next point is your comment about when to showcase. The time-line has moved up a full year. We have three kids from our program that have already committed and they are 2009 grads. The reality is that the sophomore year is a real key and colleges are making decisions and asking for commitments between their sophomore and junior years. BTW- I think that's a horrible trend but it is fact.
I spoke with the head coach of the largest D1 program in CT - he and his fellow coaches agree - BUT - he also said if it's a good showcase he's the first one there. We are all part of the problem.

quote:
I'll leave you with this- We had a 16 year old pitcher from the central valley that was slated to play with us in the summer. The kid threw 10 innings every week for the whole high school season. 120 pitch counts followed by three more innings two days later were the norm. When summer came, the player was barred from playing with us because of the amount of innings he threw that spring. Who barred him? The same coach who abused him all spring!

Again we agree there are good and bad at every level.

Again, NC I believe we agree more than we disagree.

Jake
Lefty 34,

You know there are alot of other major teams in St. Louis that your son can pitch for. They will play the same competition as you and will wrap up their seasons in early to mid-July. They'll play the same competition as your current team. Maybe it's time to jump ship?

There's a real good team out of Kirkwood that I can put you in contact with if you'd like. Just PM me.
Jake P wrote:
"Unfortunately more and more experts feel that excessive TB is one of the major reasons why arm injuries amoung prepubescent players are on the rise, but that topic has been beaten to death and as long as their are dilusional parents interested in winning the trend will continue. I asked college and high schools coaches at the World Baseball Convention what they felt the number one problem in youth baseball is right now, most agreed TB and excessive ball."

Interestingly, at ABCA during the pitching coaches hot stove, there was a long discussion about this and the "consensus" in the room (maybe 40 D-1 pitching coaches and another 50-60 randoms (JC guys, HS coaches, and "low-man-on-the-totem pole" Travel Ball guys) was that lack of preparation to throw was the "culprit" for the rise in injuries. Today's pitchers were called "soft" and "coddled" and that coaches have developed a CYA mentality when it comes to pitching use, erring on the side of "caution" so they can never be blamed in case an athlete gets hurt.

Just to be clear, this is not so much my position on this, because I probably fall somewhere between the D1 guys and Dr. Andrews, but is it reasonable to think that one could prevent injury by throwing (practicing) MORE rather than less? That a high inning load may be acceptable for some pitchers if they were adequately prepared?

As one of the D1 guys (I think it was Fred Corral of UT, but it could have been someone else) said, if you lift weights once a week you will always be sore, but if you lift 3 times a week you'll only be sore at the beginning.

Anyway, I don't intend to hijack this thread with a discussion of whether pitch counts and inning limits are good, but just wanted to mention what I think was a very interesting and surprising perspective.
Last edited by XtremeBB
So what's a player to do if the HS "requires" them to play fall and summer with them when he is fully capable of playing at a higher level? How does this affect his future? What if the possibility exists for the player to play at a higher level but he can't be "seen" if he is always playing locally for the HS (which might be in a smaller, remote type area Smile)
The real question is TB coach hijacking a boy from the opportunity of being a 2 or more sport athlete in HS. We are talking late summer TB during HS Fall sports mandatory camps, practices & tryouts.(football s****r etc...), not mandatory HS Fall Baseball.

JakeP---thank you that is what I was looking for, a TB coach should not interfere with HS tryouts for other sports, right? (iguess we were posting at the same time)
Last edited by Lefty34

Add Reply

×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×