Travel vs. HS

That is hard to believe, but if it's true my first visit would be to the Coach himself, The AD, the Principal and the to the Board.

No HS Coach has the right to do that.

Ask yourself this.....

Is this directive supposed to be about the school? the coach? or the kid?

According to a prep newspaper article in the Suntimes this month high school summer baseball coaches have to realize it's not what it use to be. The top players are playing in travel leagues similiar to AAU summer basketball. (See Suntimes prep athletic website.)

The article will need to be "googled"..."Has time passed for high school summer baseball?" by Tim Stablein July 4th Pioneer Local.

dacoach,
Down Here in Texas we have an "extracurricular governing board", University Interscholastic League, UIL for short. This is our K-12 version of NCAA, in a way.
Clearly this coach would be in violation of our UIL sanctioning body policy.
If I were you, I'd suggest you look into the Illinois counterpart...read the rules..then get his edict in writing or a recording of this coaches directive...If he's in violation, you will want to take it up with not only your schools Athletic Director, but also the School District Athletic Director & your School Board & Superintendent.
Sounds like this guy is an intimidator, not a coach!

his nc42dad-please explain the meaning to your question. If I were a HS baseball coach, and I had 75% of my players playing at a higher level during the weekends-I would be thrilled when they came back to play for me during the week.

Anddd-BBMom-you hit the nail on the head.

dacoach1-

First off, there are many coaches who HATE travel baseball. They do not think kids should be playing at a higher level if it in anyway interferes with the high school summer season. The player's entire focus should be nothing except the high school season and the coach does not even want a balance. That is why the directive comes out that your kid is going to sit, or even worse yet, gets cut from the team in the spring if he plays elsewhere. Personally, I DO NOT understand it. Is this about the coach and his record and future goals? Is it about representing the school & community and making men out of them?

The question is why does this attitude exist? I am not sure I can give you a blanket answer for all coaches nor do I attempt to do so. I can really only speculate. Actions generally speak louder than words but as I have said many times, your kid is NOT going to get much exposure thru high school summer ball.

If you were a college coach and you were recruiting a hitter, do you want to watch him against a pitcher throwing 88 mph or a kid throwing 78 mph? Next question, how many high school summer games did you see & did you see anyone throwing 88 mph?

BBMom - I am jealous of your TX rules. Speaking in the dark, I do not know if any rule exists here. However, unfortunately many AD's are going to support whatever decision their high school coaches make.

How do you prove your kid is being "punished" when all they have to say is "coach's decision?" Every parent is afraid of repercusions on their kid.. and that is why I think you see so much angst on this topic in this forum. JMHO

Your kid only gets one real shot at this & why anyone would do something to squash a kid's dream...boggles my mind as well as many, many others.

It is sad because you also rarely see a kid going to the next level because his HS coach had made phone calls for him, put work outs together that invited colleges to see him, etc. I know you see travel ball guys do that. Colleges don't want to come to HS games because in any game there's an average of probably 3-4 kids on the field that are college level talent and like you mentioned they want to see kids competing against better competition so they can gauge how they will be against that better competition in the future. They can go to any summer tournament game and for alot of the good programs there's going to be 18 kids that are college players, so instead of going from HS game to HS game you can go to one tournament game and see 25 kids playing against each other in one location that are college type players.

Travel ball doesn't interfere with HS in the spring, they stop all correspondence with the kids, they then resume in the summer. This is essential because how the HS rules are you can't work out in the winter and the winter is when alot of these kids work on their skills and get better. The solution is less games in the summer for HS baseball, they play way too many games and way too many that are meaningless. Double headers Mon-Thursday is more games than they play in the spring even. These travel tournaments are roughly thurs-sunday. why can't the HS just play Mon and Wed, double headers. 4 games a week? Then everyone would be happy, there's barely be any interference, the kids would have some days off and not be burned out. The HS wouldn't have to spend all that money on umps and travling, the coach wouldn't have to spend all his time either becuase if you ask them none of them like coaching the summer because it's too much for too little. That's too simple of a concept I guess.

******Edited By Moderator**********************

***************Edited By Moderator****************

quote:

The question is why does this attitude exist?

Attitude has nothing to do with it. The REAL question is whether or not a SCHOOL coach has the authority to control out of school activities!

quote:

How do you prove your kid is being "punished" when all they have to say is "coach's decision?" Every parent is afraid of repercusions on their kid..

Find out the Rules! Surely there is an oversight committee or something.

When does baseball season begin in Illinois?
What does the State Education Board have to say?
How have the Dullin Dodgers done it for so many years? Aren't the out of Chicago?

Down here, practices start in Feb, 3-4 three day double elim. tournaments, and season begins the end of March-beginning of April. 2 games a week till mid May, then post season for as long as a team can hang on. State Championship is played in June.

Dulins Dodgers are out of Western Tennessee.

Thanks for the correction. I wasn't sure where DD was from, just know they had a national reputation...

Just a little research goes a long way...
I'd definately be challenging the "intimidator" ...I mean Coach, if what you report is accurate.
Ok, this from the Illinois Athletic Association...see page 64, by-law 3.150
http://www.ihsa.org/org/policy/2007-08/section3.pdf


201) NON-SCHOOL COMPETITION
Q. May a student who is on a school team and who participates in competition outside the season in the same sport
with a non-school organization, participate in a non-school competition in that sport on the day after the high school
season ends?
A. Yes. (By-law 3.101)

3.150 3.150 SPECIAL PROVISIONS FOR SUMMER PARTICIPATION
3.151 Participation by high school students in summer programs must be voluntary and in no way be an actual or implied prerequisite for membership on a high school team.
3.152 Students may participate in summer baseball/softball leagues sponsored by schools, during the period between Monday
of Week 44 and Saturday of Week 7 in the IHSA Standardized Calendar.
3.153 Persons who coach a sport at a member school may have a maximum of 25 days of contact in that sport with students
from that school during the period between the last day of classes or Monday of Week 49 in the IHSA Standardized
Calendar (whichever date is earlier) in the spring each year and Sunday of Week 5 in the IHSA Standardized Calendar.
Students may have a maximum of 25 days of contact per sport with persons who coach that sport at the school they attend during the same time period. A day of contact is defined as any date on which any coaching or instruction in the skills
and techniques of any sport takes place. These limitations apply to all sports except Baseball and Softball. An exception
may be made by the Executive Director under the guidelines adopted by the Board of Directors for competitions
sponsored and conducted directly by the National Governing Body for the sport.

Just a thought. Is it possible that these coaches want their players to commit themselves to the summer program so that the kids who do not have the means to travel all over the country (and internationally) and pay for hotel rooms every weekend have a place to continue to develop their skills? For the kids that can only afford to pay the summer ball activity fee, I don't think that meeting twice a week is enough repetition. I don't believe a coach should not allow kids to play travel baseball, but I think it is fair to expect the travel baseball kids to do their best to make the summer program work for the kids that might not have the ability/means to travel like they do.

quote:

Ok, this from the Illinois Athletic Association...
I'd definately be challenging the "intimidator" ...I mean Coach, if what you report is accurate.

201) NON-SCHOOL COMPETITION
Q. May a student who is on a school team and who participates in competition outside the season in the same sport
with a non-school organization, participate in a non-school competition in that sport on the day after the high school
season ends?
A. Yes. (By-law 3.101)

bbmom - Thanks for the info. If I read that correctly it states that they cannot stop you from doing travel. But what is to keep them from benching your kid? Some of these guys you can talk to until you are blue in the face.....selective memory, you know. I cannot say how often & I cannot say if it happens much, but the point I want to make is that intimidation IS going on. The words "coaches decision" goes a long way with many high school administrators. Would you agree that is possible? Thanks again for the info - it is a must save!

What year is your son? What are his stats from this past or any previous season? How long has he been on the team? Is he a starter? Who else plays his position?
Repeat to Administration the facts and figures, and the threat from the coach. Then, refer to By-law 3.150.
Is the Coach going to cut all the guys? doubtful. Is he recruiting outside his District, if several guys are benched? There is a rule for that, too. Does he have enough talent available now, to be so cavelier as to bench/cut ANY player?

I'm not usually this confrontational, but this kind of situation is not good for the player or the team. If these comments were made in front of the team, in my book, the coach is TOAST! Can any of the other players/parents co-oberrate this threat?

Let us not forget that the smummer league is not an IHSA sanctioned anything, its is an IHSBCA event (Illinois High School Baseball Coaches Association). The bottom line is that Illinois high school baseball is OUT OF SEASON during the summer. My recommendation is to also bring this to the attention of the school, the IHSA, and a lawyer for sure. All it may take is a simply letter from a lawyer and the school will launch the coach. This is the last thing that the schools want. Remember most of these coaches are not highly qualified, all they need to do is pass a ASEP test.

Can't wait to hear the recaps from the coaches of all the great games today?

I'd be real interested to hear what people have to say about a coach (almost) requiring weight lifting and conditioning in the off-season if you don't play another sport....

quote:

3.152 Students may participate in summer baseball/softball leagues sponsored by schools, during the period between Monday
of Week 44 and Saturday of Week 7 in the IHSA Standardized Calendar.

Play dog you are wrong, summer baseball is sanctioned by the IHSA, read again.

Nails not sure what your agenda is gotta believe your could be more responsible than the comments you made

nc42, I have always respected your comments and opinion but I have been to a good number of Travel ball games not sure every kid throws 88?

If we are trying to get a greater understanding of HS baseball, lets make sure we draw an accurate picture of the scope of travel baseball.

bulldog 19 - what is wrong with conditioning and lifting weights in the off-season? Isn't this where the kids get a chance to get stronger? Do you think that it benefits anyone of them to sit around and do nothing. No teenage studnet should sit around and not be on a regular exercise program no matter if they play sports or not.

Play dog - Do you ever write anything meaningful?

playball,
I have no agenda, i don't care either way. I just see HS summer baseball and travel ball and think they can both work hand in hand. Too many ego's on either side. I think a perfect solution is HS baseball play double headers Monday and Wednesday and get rid of Tuesday and Thursday games, it will give the kids a chance to do other things. I also believe travel ball does 100% more for them in terms of getting to the next level than HS summer does, but there is a good purpose of HS summerball programs, they just shouldn't interfere with travel ball, an equal balance is very easy to find.

Please point me to to the area on the IHSA website where past summer league results or champion information is located.

quote:

bulldog 19 - what is wrong with conditioning and lifting weights in the off-season? Isn't this where the kids get a chance to get stronger? Do you think that it benefits anyone of them to sit around and do nothing. No teenage studnet should sit around and not be on a regular exercise program no matter if they play sports or not.

I agree with you 1000000000%. 30 minutes a day 5-6 days per week of moderate exercise. For athletes, make it 45-60 minutes per day 3-4 days per week. Some high-intensity, some low-intensity.


Nails, if it were easy, everybody would be doing it.

Before you guys start referring legal advice, this is a post by the topic starter in a different thread. Could there be a little bias?

Posted May 06, 2008 01:59 PM by dacoach

"We have the most ignorant coaches at our HS-they dont listen to anything anyone has to offer. Is this acroos the board? Very low self esteem-almost afraid of letting someone give them a good idea or good info about players..its their way or the highway..so sad.."

As a coach I do like my kids to play as much baseball as possible but you have to trust who they are playing for. There are some very good teams and also some very bad teams to play for. I've experienced both with my players. As long as there is productive communication it does work out.

Also to clear up a few IHSA rules and regulations, even though there is no summer state tournament sanctioned by the IHSA (it is sanctioned by the coaches association) the summer season still falls under the baseball calendar. The baseball calendar continues into the fall as well.

Play dog you are wrong, summer baseball is sanctioned by the IHSA, read again.

Playball2 - get a clue before you spout off...summer ball is certainly not sanctioned by the IHSA. That's been clearly established.

What about the 75% of kids on our HS teams that are not good enough to play on your "elite" travel teams?
They should only play twice a week (tues / thurs)?
And to listen to some of you talk about how horrible a job the high school coaches are doing, what about the politics at your level? Travel teams have their own set of problems we never hear about in this thread. How about the dad who volunteers to coach the team so his weak playing son can start over some poor kid who has more ability? I have always been one to cooperate with travel programs and I see the value in them. However for someone to make the comment about HS coaches not being qualified I would say that most of the HS coaches that coach these teams are HS teachers and coach for a living. If a coach told a young man that he cannot play travel ball then he is WRONG and that would be something to pursue. However being an educator for many years alot of times kids can go home and tell their parents things that a coach may never have said. Thats why if a coach meets with a parent the player should be their as well. I wonder if the coach actually said what is being reported. Are we all getting excited over heresay? The parent, player and coach need to have a sit down to get to the bottom of this situation and find out what was really said. If the parent is not satisfied then the advice would be to get the administration involved. As for you die hard travel only people HS baseball is not going away anytime soon. Most of us are in this business to serve alot of kids not just a chosen few. For years HS baseball had the kids M-Th and travel had them for the weekends. That always worked well. When either side gets greedy we end up with problems. I feel sorry for the kids in the summer right now. They are being pulled in so many different directions. I'll leave you with a positive note. The state of Illinois is usually in the top 5 states for turning out professional draft picks on a yearly basis. I dont credit that solely to HS programs or travel programs but a combination of both. I say keep up the good work to all who are putting in the time for all these kids and quit focusing on the few rotten apples.

The IHSA has a starting and ending point for 3 seasons of HS baseball which includes a summer season and fall season. Whether you use the word "sanctioned" or not it is legal to play HS baseball during this time. The only affiliation to the coaches association is the tournament at the end of the summer. Their are some rules from the IHSA regarding summer ball but to be honest they don't want to govern the summer season. I would guess that it is inevitable that the HS coaches will soon only be allowed to have 25 days of contact in the summer with the kids as do the other sports. Personally I'm not a big fan of fall baseball and think the kids should play another sport in the fall.

This was hard to find but ...

From the May 2008 IHSA Official Newsletter:
http://www.ihsa.org/school/documents/interpreter/2008-05.pdf http://www.ihsa.org/school/documents/interpreter/2008-05.pdf

As the school year nears the end and your summer
programs get geared up, here is a reminder to register your summer baseball/softball programs. Many times schools forget that there is an IHSA recognized summer season for baseball and softball (Monday of Week 46 through Saturday of Week 7). If your school is going to field a school sponsored summer baseball or softball team; be sure to complete the Summer Baseball/Softball Registration Form found online on the baseball or softball pages of the IHSA website. The forms are included in the
Bat and Ball Manuals for schools.

http://www.ihsa.org/activity/ba/2007-08/schoolmanual.pdf.
pdf

While the IHSA does not sponsor a state series for
summer baseball or softball schools can field teams and compete just as they do in the spring. The Illinois High School Baseball Coaches Association does conduct a state series for baseball and those interested in participating can visit their website for more nformation

http://illinoishighschoolbaseball.org/home/

Bravescoach read again and then apologize. Again don't enter an arena you have no idea about. If you want the support of HS coaches maybe you ought to look into understanding the rules for which they play under.

Many times schools forget that there is an IHSA recognized summer season for baseball and softball (Monday of Week 46 through Saturday of Week 7). Bat and Ball Manuals for schools.

Not sure what it is about 3.152, Do you need more clues? What is that you are determined to do?

GBS25, The likelihood of the 25 contact days was in great consideration 2 yrs ago but seemed to have lost it's strength for 2 reasons. First, with contact days being at a premium it placed athletes in the middle, choosing between 7 on 7, baseball games and shootouts. Secondly, It's impact on schools for the summer baseball season as it's only season for play.

quote:

the coach wouldn't have to spend all his time either becuase if you ask them none of them like coaching the summer because it's too much for too little.

Nails, when were you asked to speak on behalf of the HS baseball coaches? Again, let's show a level of responsibility for what we say and how it is said, whether it be opinion or fact.

GBS25-

Why don't you like Fall baseball? No agenda, just curious... I have always been a huge fan of it.

We can go on and on with this topic forever and there will never be a winner to this debate. But there will be a loser, the kids that are put in the middle every summer. Everyone needs to wake up and put the kids first before they’re own agendas. JMO - Have a nice day.

CSG, IMO I think the kids will be the winners. Coaches who are in tune with the landscape of baseball have an understanding of how a player can and should benefit from both experiences.

Coach IU26-not sure what your comment means-but to the rest thanks for the input-This has nothing to do with being biased about anything-our team has a multitude of very talented players, most of them have played travel ball since they were 7-8.

None of them owe their talents to thier present HS coaches-so why the neagtive feedback from HS coaches regarding travel players? I would think that being blessed with 9 travel ball players and some very very good house players would make any coach excietd about the future of his program. At our school, its almost like its the plague.

Before this point is brought up-YES, THERE ARE GREAT BALL PLAYERS THAT DID NOT PLAY TRAVEL.

quote:

Originally posted by Nails:
the coach wouldn't have to spend all his time either becuase if you ask them none of them like coaching the summer because it's too much for too little. That's too simple of a concept I guess.

I happen to love coaching in the summer. I know the competition is down, and we are often missing our top players, but it gives other kids a chance to get in-game instruction and game experience that they may not have had other wise.

It seems as though when I played (96-99) summer was much more competitive than it is now and I do wish it would go back that way. We have taken steps to try to improve the quality of our summer program that do not include demanding players show up instead of going to travel tournaments etc. When our best players are away at travel tournaments, I know that will ultimately improve the quality of our team in the spring. We simply take the attitude that if Johnny Travelball is gone, it is Tommy Inhouse's chance to prove what he can do.

As for the schedule, our league schedules Monday Wednesday Thursday (double headers) and I think that is very reasonable. This way the travel kids can show up on Monday, Wednesday and if they don't have a tournament somewhere on Thursday, but the other kids are getting at least 3 full games of playing time during the week. If we did just Monday and Wednesday and your team has 18 in the summer, some kids would only be playing 2 games a week. There is no development there and we are widening the gap between the top and bottom of the rosters.

The word "sanction" can be semantically construed in many ways. However, as for the topic of this particular discussion, we need look no further than Rule 3.151 which specifically prohibits the conduct complained of in this thread - and other threads for that matter. What part of "must be voluntary and in no way be an actual or implied prerequisite for membership on a high school team" don't these coaches understand?

Playball2...I'll meet you half way. Is it fair to say that summer ball is not an official IHSA sport as defined by rule?

quote:

Originally posted by dacoach1:

None of them owe their talents to thier present HS coaches-so why the neagtive feedback from HS coaches regarding travel players?

dacoach1, if you don't mind, please explain this statement.

I'm going to shine a light on the subject that may change a perspective or two.

First of all, think of the kid as a baseball player. Not as a HS Player, but a baseball player who happens to be of HS age. The kid plays for his HS team because he goes there. A baseball program, like any other activity at the school, exists for the kid not the teacher or coach. Whenever it gets to be about the coach or teacher it is inappropriate.

While in some cases the best thing a kid can do is to let his HS Coach guide him in his quest to become better player and to play on a higher level it is becoming increasingly more likely that he can do better elsewhere. It's the luck of the draw....maybe he gets a fine man and coach to coach him in HS, just as likely not.

Why is it assumed that a kid's first responsibilty is to the HS Team? The best case scenario has it that the Coach is so respected by the player that they want to make it their first priority. Usually, those coaches that fall in that catergory don't mind the kid playing travel, with the hope they want to play in the summer playoffs for the HS Coach.

The problem seems to be with the HS Coach who wants the kids to play only for them, but then don't back it up with running the program in a way that would benefit the kid. Any coach that tries to stop "his" players from playing elsewhere in the summer is putting his ego and himself ahead of the kid.

quote:

Playball2 - get a clue before you spout off...summer ball is certainly not sanctioned by the IHSA. That's been clearly established.

Which part should I semantically construe the get a clue or the part when you said that it is clearly established. Why are you in denial of the fact that the IHSA recognizes the summer season as an official sport.

I don't do anything halfway.