True cause of pitching arm injury

My own personal experience over 25 years of coaching is this;
Arm injury is a cumulative thing. The reason we see it now more than ever, is that we have had the advent of Travel Ball at younger ages (When I was young, Travel was the exclusive realm of guys who played Legion ball or some type of 18 and up ball). Now we he kids who at 8, 9, 10 have as full a schedule as major leaguers (Well maybe not 162 games but it isn't out of the ordinary to see a kid do more than 60-80 or even 100 games per year). Taken as a one year thing, the kid loves it and parents tend to say "whats the problem, jr is playing against the very best of the best, he loves it and look at him he's fine...could go another 40 games easy". Well where I've seen time and again these "chickens coming home to roost is in the HS years, the body has developed injuries and problems over the sequential long hot summers and nagging injuries turn into full blown injuries. The only "kids" I've ever seen with TJ surgery have been multi-year travel ballers (Exceptions I am sure happen but this is my experience). So it is a sort of over-use, coupled with little to no recovery and repitition, much like we now see with carpel-tunnel type injuries. Curves IMO can come into the mix when at a young age they are thrown on this type of schedule with growth plates still not closed and they keep throwing the pitch, repeated over time, year over year. So for example we have kids who can throw a proper curve as say a 12 year old in Little League play, but add on another 40-60 games over a summer and fall, going in tourneys sometimes back to back and repeating the whole process as a 13 yr old, 14, 15, etc and Dr. Andrews has a patient when the kid gets into his HS years. If that same kid simply threw in league play...say went to summer camps or pursued some other interest over the summer and played fall ball the chances in my experience are that he'll not have significant risk. So my opinion it is the extreme competition, year over year without and real recovery period that accumulates to break down the vitality or restorative power of these kids bodies/arms which is the culprit.

That's a pretty thorough answer.

I don't have the years experience to know but just from observation it seems as if kids arms are weaker than they were when i was a kid. Maybe it was just that when i was a kid we had to entertain ourselves more which usually equated to going down to the park to play the endless game of pickle with the neighborhood kids rather than just strum the buttons on "guitar hero".

I have kids who show up to the travel team and their mits are sandwiched together making a vee. I know these kids are not throwing at anytime other than when they play, to me it is no wonder that they suddenly throw for ten minutes and their arms hurt already.

I'm no expert, but seems to me conditioning and maybe genetics have a lot to do with it. We have one or two kids on our team with arm problems that just don't throw a lot. They don't pitch, but complain about soreness fairly often. Then we have other kids who are pitchers and never seem to have problems. They may have a little sorness once in a while, but nothing that a few days of rest don't cure. These guys are usually the ones who do a throwing/long toss program prior to the season and take a lot of ground balls with throws to 1st during the season along with long toss. None of these guys has had to sit due to arm issues. They are also the ones who can go higher in pitch counts before they start to tire. I can't say that cumulative over a period of years it won't add up. That kind of goes with the theory that there are only so many throws in an arm and it goes out. I'm not sure I am with that one. If that was true, Roger Clemmens, Maddux, Glavine among others would have run out long ago.

I think conditioning has a lot to do with it. My son has been pitching since he was 8 and has been involved with travel ball since he was 11 and has not had any arm issues. He is now 14. We do watch him closely. His pitch count is higher than others on the team, but we mostly look for signs of fatigue and take him out. The biggest thing we do is make sure he has plenty of rest from pitching between his longer outings. He still throws in practice. His velocity and control have increased every year. He has received professional instruction and his mechanics are pretty solid.

Anyway, I think if you couple conditioning with genetics and common sense with mound time things will work out.

quote:

Roger Clemmens, Maddux, Glavine

They know they have to recover and do...I don't believe that there is only so many pitches in an arm...I believe that it has to be treated properly.
Your son for example, you watch him closely, you don't expect more out of his arm than it can give, and you care enough to pay attention..the trouble comes in when a coaches ego and desire to win at all costs takes the place of the care you exhibit for your boy. I bet you've never made him/asked him to go back to back at a tourney because you ran out of pitchers or let him throw a crazy amount of pitches because, well, he'd have ALL week to recover. So add poor coaching into my little offering too.
Genetics? I'm not a bio-physicist...but we are becoming more diverse in the gene pool not in-breeding so I have to think the genetics aren't faulty...milk-toast couch potato's?! Now there is something there . That IMO would be under poor coaching because if the kid can't handle the load because he's not conditioned who puts him on the mound for extended periods of time besides poor coaches?

Very well said, jd. I might add that year-round competitive baseball probably also seriously hampers most kids from doing the kinds of important off-season conditioning work that they need to develop functional strength for in-season baseball.

So, I'd have to say that "no off-season conditioning" is definitely "improper conditioning", as per GB-Man's OP.

jd's point about cumulative effects on pitcher health are important. An optimally conditioned pitcher with outstanding mechanics will still break down at some endurance limit (no MM disciples need respond, please!); however, optimization is the key to everything in an imperfect world.

Optimize conditioning, optimize mechanics, optimize mental health (by making sure that competitive baseball is enjoyable and not a grim full-time, year-round job for youth players), and thereby optimize the chances that your boys will enjoy their playing time for as long as it lasts.

My belief is that there is no one exact cause---it is cumulative with improper rest between outings bing a bigger problem than people seem to realize

I also agree that kids today do not warm up properly nor do they throw enough on a regular basis--LL'ers don't play "catch" like we did as kids

We threw every day and we did not have sore arms

Dr Andrews couldn't answer that question.
There are many reasons and several types of injuries each with its own set of factors. Genetics, conditioning, mechanics , over use and all the other factors play a part in some injuries. The only thing you can do is condition yourself to the max and that includes lots of throwing with good warmup and mechanics.
To me the real problem is not enough good pitching coaches at all levels. I watch college guys with awful mechanics and wonder how they have survived this long.

quote:

I watch college guys with awful mechanics

I guess everything is relative...I watch a fair amount of college baseball, from D3 to D1 levels, and I don't see all that much I would really describe as awful, mechanically speaking.

My perspective might be skewed, though, because I've also been watching a lot of 9 - 14 yos over the past 5 years. Against that backdrop almost all collegiate pitchers look pretty good...

Without the extra influence of good, knowledgeable coaching along the way it's just a natural selection process, pure and simple. The truly outrageous mechanical flaws that are so common in Little League to 14 yos give way to a more select group of HS players, who have a variety of more subtle flaws on average, and they give way to a very select group of collegiate pitchers who usually look fairly mechanically sound to me. Not to say they are all equally good, but I don't see how very many with truly awful mechanics could perform well enough over the long run to find roster spots on college teams.

I have the same problem with a few folks who like to opine on this-or-that MLB pitcher's "terrible mechanics". The performance-based selection pressure is so intense at that level that mechanical flaws must become ever more subtle to diagnose and correct, no?

Gingerbread man,

quote:

The most common thing I hear is that pitching injuries happen with overuse. But it appears logically that the " overuse" only applies when the arm is already tired and not conditioned properly.

I think the problem is the exact opposite. My son 17 is in his 10th month of rehab from Tommy John surgery. Since he had his surgery we've met many players and families going thru the same process. My son's surgeon is with the Baltimore Orioles and we've had extensive talks with him about arm injuries in young pitchers. What people need to understand is that young pitchers are bigger and better conditioned than ever before. Most of your better pitchers have workout and throwing programs that they follow. Pitchers today throw much harder than years past. My son at age 15 was gunned at 87 at a P.G Showcase. He followed a good throwing program and was very strong for his age. He was 6ft 155 lbs. The problem was that he thru 148 pitches in a high school game, the next game he tore his ucl. The better condition these athletes are in, helps them throw at higher velocities. The higher the velocity the more stress on muscles and ligaments. With higher pitch counts the muscles will get tired and there will be more stress put on ligaments, and here lies the problem. The one part of your body that you can't strengthen gives out. That would be your bones. IT's not just high pitch counts but also not enough rest time between starts. When my son tore the ligament it tore away from the bone. The surgeon told us that when you throw that many pitches the muscles get fatigued and because of the high velocity the ligament can't handle the stress. When stress is put on the ligament the weak spot is where it connects to the bone and in young pitchers the bone is still maturing. This is where they hear the dreaded POP.


My opinion is that the better condition athletes throw harder and are at a higher risk of injury and should be on a very strict pitch count. IT's not that these pitchers are not properly conditioned. IT's just the opposite,and their arms are not mature enough to handle the velocity that they put out on a high pitch count.

Also right after my son got his surgery we went to watch a minor league game. The pitcher at the game was Chorye Spoone who had worked with my son in the off season. He took Andrew down to talk to some of the pitchers and they explained how their pitch count worked. I think it was no more than 80 in a game and 30 in a inning. There are reasons for pitch counts and I wish more coaches would do a better job of watching out for their pitchers.


JMO

Banditsbb

Most of the hard theowers at a young age I have known no longer pitch. In an effort to throw hard they develop poor throwing mechanics and often lock their elbows out when trying to get max effort. Watch the guys who fall off to one side and what they do with their arm when they release. The arm straightens out and the stress is put on the elbow. Wehen a pitcher falls off he separates his upper body from his throwing arm placing stress on the shoulder. I watched a game the other day where a very good lefty pitched very well and around the 3rd inning he started to fall off and his game went right down the toilet. This is very hard on the arm and shoulder not to mention his game. He went to the P coach and asked him what he did wrong and the coach shrugged it off. No clue.
My sons doctor was a ML P coach and he states that many MLB pitchers have poor mechanics. Throwing hard doesn't equate to good mechanics. His job was helping the injured pitchers including several hall of famers.

No argument with any of the comments so far. I'll add a couple points.

First, the kids with the stronger arms are the kids that are usually the workhorses for their teams. Unfortunately, the kids with the strong arms can actually put more stress on their immature skeletal systems. So the strategy of throwing kids with stronger arms more is bass-ackwards.

Second, I believe there is both short-term and long-term overuse. Overuse during a weekend tournament is short-term overuse. Playing all year round without taking some time off each year is long-term overuse. Long-term overuse causes the accumulation of short-term overuse to keep accumulating. A couple months off each year, on the other hand, would give the arm some time to recover from the accumulated short-term overuse.

The true causes of all pitching related injuries are well known and they are all mechanically related. If you pitch using the “Traditional pitching mechanics” your arm will continually break down at all these points. No matter what form of traditional mechanic you use!

1. Ulnar collateral ligament failure is caused by one thing, Forearm bounce at initial forward force application, this also breaks your humerus and growth plates, get rid of forearm bounce problem gone.

2. Loss of extension range of motion and severe inflammation is caused by one thing, the slamming of your Humeral Fossa into its Olecranon process of the Ulna (hyper extension). Throw inside of vertical problem fixed.

3. Labrum tears (slap lesions) are caused by early over rotation or scapular loading causing you to centrifuge your forearm outside of vertical, this action makes your humerus grind the Labrun over and over like a mortar and pestle. Lock your humerus in line with your shoulders at initial forward force application, problem fixed.

4. Rotator Cuff tears and tendon dislodgments, same as above.

5. Bicep and brachialis tears are caused from the contraction of these muscles to stop the slamming of your elbow together. Throw inside vertical and pronate all pitches problem fixed.

6. Teres minor tears in the back are caused from improper deceleration due to pulling down and across the front of your body. Get full late rotation and pronate your finish with your hand towards the catcher problem fixed.

7. Hip and knee injuries are caused by closing off your glove arm foot at plant and locking it in. Let your foot land heel to toe then rotating it on the glove arm side of centerline, problem fixed.

8. Laxity in the shoulder capsule is caused by forearm flyout and static over stretching. Throw inside of vertical and stop stretching this area, problem fixed.

9. Bone spurs (chips) are caused when you are a youth pitcher when the Hyaline cartilage is shredded up when soft then when you mature and this material hardens it breaks off and becomes floating chips. Throw inside of vertical and this grinding stops, fixed.

There are many more injuries caused by this destructive way our kids are taught to pitch and throw, it will not stop until a change in mechanics is instituted.

The most frustrating thing to watch is someone who injures their arm and then goes back to what got them injured in the first place. Traditional Mechanics.

If there is no injurious mechanics you can pitch as much as the softball girls.
The only thing holding you back then would be fatique!

Yardbird you and Marshall are full of BS.

Marshalls theories are just that and you parrot them well.

Big words to make it sound like he knows what he is talking about and baffle naive people. All in an effort to extract money from their wallets.

quote:

Yardbird you and Marshall are full of BS

I was going to be a bit more delicate.

What mystifys me is what the unfortunate kids whose parents or themselves succumb to the con do after they leave Marshalls compound...Sell cars?

What I always want the Marshallites to explain is even though MLB "Hates" MM, this hate somehow overcomes their greed...the only thing or person in the whole wide world that can over come the greed of the owners is Mike Marshall. I mean if I can get one of these never materialized 95-100 mph pitchers who has fantastic breaking pitches and never gets hurt, well I'm putting butts in the seats AND not having to pay medical bills, throw me in that briar patch there Brar Bear...I mean Stienbrenner hated Billy Martin...but he was successful, they (The owners) are all about money, they don't care about personality or crack pot, just give them a marketable commodity and let the cash register ring. MM just can't seem to do it.
I was wondering if the talking points come with the broucher, every single Marshall guy on every single site I've seen them on say the exact same thing, yet never can produce a working example of the claims. Sorta tragic when you consider the backside of the belief...some kid is missing a shot because mom, dad or him bought the bilge.
Yard I believe you believe, just provide answers beyond the assertions. The truth is that without fail, athletics at the very highest levels have injury as a consequence, I've never ever been able to come up with one type of professional athlete who cannot be injured pursuing their chosen field (Even bowlers get back aches).

Your definitly a nicer guy than I am.

I received MMs free letters for a year or so and it was a constant effort to sell me something.

quote:

Your definitly a nicer guy than I am.

Can I get you to drop a note to my misses?

I've seen his compound, looks like one of those gator wrasselin tourist traps there on 441 (You know, where Bubba dresses his Labrador Retriever up as a gator and rolls around with him in the mud). Having seen state of the art facilities, I wonder just how he manages to entice folks there.

After reading some very good comments on causes, I am going to try and Nutshell the reasons for arm injury.
All of the above mentioned rolled into... a real lack of education and understanding of the arm, pitching mechanics, conditioning and long term arm health. We've all been guilty of our ignorance from time to time. I really believe very few really know all about the arm and pitchng, and I especially don't know that much.
Think of it, a Dr like Andrews who knows all about the workings of the arm and how to rebuild it, may not know that much about pitching, though I am sure he's learned alot over the years. Many great pitching teachers and guru's may not know much about the medical or conditioning side. Some well known trainers may not know much about a pitchers true regiment on the mound.
I would only recommend that a young pitcher (and parents) take it slow, don't over play (the competition is being watered down at the so called top team tournaments anyway) and listen to your arm.
I have always agreed that younsters should just play more catch.

II have always said "Know your body". The body will tell you when to shut down. The hard part for some is listening to what you are being told and being mature enough to say no.
When my son started playing BB I researched pitching because I was aware of the issues having pitched BB and FB for years. I excelled at throwing sports like discus and throwing a football. I could throw all day and never felt any pain. One thing I did was never lock my arm out straight. Always slightly bent at the elbow.
In football your arm motion rarely causes injury and yet the motion is a short stroke and the ball is heavier than a BB. That always puzzled me and still does.

So, help me here- I have heard a few times here about not letting the pitching arm be straight at release- must be slightly bent at elbow. How does this help the arm? I have seen very many pitchers who throw with their arm straight at release. My son throws with his arm straight at release and the only arm pain ever he has ever complained about is bicep and tricep pain, and never elbow pain.

quote:

Originally posted by Coachric:
Think of it, a Dr like Andrews who knows all about the workings of the arm and how to rebuild it, may not know that much about pitching, though I am sure he's learned alot over the years. Many great pitching teachers and guru's may not know much about the medical or conditioning side. Some well known trainers may not know much about a pitchers true regiment on the mound.

Just an FYI...

The National Pitching Association (NPA), which is Tom House's organization, and The Andrews Institute, which is Dr. James Andrews' orgnization, are collaborating to research injury causes and prevention. Through this collaboration, the pitching guy will learn more about the medical end of things and the medical guy will learn more about the pitching end of things. I'm looking forward to some good information coming from this collaboration.

Furthermore, Tom House, who is now the pitching coach at USC, is actually on the medical faculty at USC and he will have access to the other medical faculty members. Through this and the Rod Dedeaux Research and Baseball Institute (including a motion analysis lab) being built on the USC campus, House will have further access to medical perspective to pursue injury prevention research.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
In football your arm motion rarely causes injury and yet the motion is a short stroke and the ball is heavier than a BB. That always puzzled me and still does.

Shortening the stroke is the way the body protects itself - the heavier the object, the shorter the stroke. It's why quarterbacks throw with a shorter stride, quicker timing, and a shorter arm stroke. It's why shot putters put the shot. It's also why, when lifting a heavy object, you hold it closer to your center of gravity.

quote:

In football your arm motion rarely causes injury

I bet if you threw it as hard as you could for 2.5 hrs on a 80-90 degree day from a mound it might cause some discomfort after say...the 40th time you did it in a 6 month period

I'm kind of glad Yardbird chimed in...I have to confess to a several years-long fascination with Marshall and his little gang of true-believers. It's my baseball version of rubber-necking at a car accident, I guess....

The latest news to be gleaned by a careful reading of MM's Q&A miasma:

Neither Jeff Sparks, who has recently been touted by MM as one of the most skillful pitchers in the history of the game, nor Joe Williams (another avid MM trainee) were able to win spots this year on the Bridgeport Bluefish indie team. This, despite the fact that Marshall believed his friendship with Bluefish manager Tommy John would pave their way.

Apparently MM is now angry with his one-time friend TJ, calling their friendship "one-sided".

There is literally no limit to Mike Marshall's ability to hallucinate.

jd in fact I threw more in a FB practice than in BB.
Yes it was about quick release and then protect yourself. I was a very strong kid. As a freshman in HS I was 215 lbs at 6'1. My hands were huge and I credited my ability to throw hard with my hands as much as my arms. When I released a discuss or football it was all about the fingers propelling the ball.
I found fast ball tougher on my legs than hard ball. After a game of FB my legs would be beat.

The collaboration with House is a great step in the righ direction. It was House that I got most of my early knowledge from. He broke the motion down on a computer and that gave great insight into the pitching mechanics.

Gingerbreadman when you lock your arm out you are putting tremendous stress on the elbow.
Unfortunately my son has picked these bad habits up and I have been trying to get him back to where he was. He is also falling off which I assume he picked up late last year. He is not the same pitcher he was and is struggling big time.

I get it Bobble, just think about what I said...your arm would be mush.

It is a different throw though.

La, the "new" Marshallite profile is a courtious and intelligent person (Over on LTP is was Coach45...who has since parted ways with the gnome), who is much better at expousing MM's stuff than MM...I just don't get what it is that hazes their eyes over.
Any time I read Marshall on Marshall, it's like...This is a joke right...UFO's over the horizen right? JFK killed by Nixon....Princess Di was offed by the Royal family...I always wonder where Rod Serling is or how I got to the Bizzaro World. How such really good hearted, smart people fall for the "promise" of injury free athletics escapes my feeble mind.

But does the elbow really ever lock up? The reason i say this is at least in my sons case, his arm is rotating in it's socketand even at full extension (arm straight)the arm is in a rotationl phase so that it is already starting to pronate at release. Just after release the arm continues its pronation to self protect the elbow joint. Is that not the reason a pitchers arm pronates upon release- so that the elbow never really locks up?

Also, is there any substancial proof that a straight arm at release causes arm injury, or is it just a theory?

Straighten your arm out and feel the tension it puts on ligaments not to mention bones. Imagine what it does at pitching speed.
Look at stop frames of a hard throwing pitcher and you will see a lot of them straighten their arms right out. The arm should remain slightly bent as you deaccelerate.

Here is a clip of what I mean. My son at 17 striking out the #1 historical batter from Salem International. His arm remains slightly bent, head is focused on home plate and his motion is towards home.

http://s138.photobucket.com/albums/q275/greentw/?action=view¤t=Movie.flv

Throwing in itself isn't what is killing arms...pitching in games,practices, lessons with private instructors at a high instensity way too often is the culprit. Catchers easily throw as much as pitchers, often more, but they don't get the injuries as the intensity level is totally different. I blame coaches that don't insist on or allow time for warming up/ or teach long toss incorrectly; I blame parents that always think another pitching lesson is the answer and I blame the kids that think throwing/warming up is a waste of time or boring.

The lack of throwing or simply playing catch everyday is leading to pitchers with under developed arms/torsos. Kids don't want to warm up properly anymore...they throw 10 minutes (or less) and say they warm. Old school was you weren't warmed up until you were sweating ( not "glistening", we're talking old fashioned sweating). Kids today seem to be allergic to sweat as if it's going to be bad for them.

Coaches are equally to blame...how many watch the kids warming up and see they learn how to do it right, and working on proper throwing/catching mechanics? Kids don't even know how to properly catch a baseball when playing catch or warming up...coaches let the kids get away with lazy fundamentals when so much can be taught during warm ups.

Parents get delusional or something when they hear about the next great instructor to come to their area. Little Johnny just has to run off for lesson after his practice so he can learn to pitch...with no regard to the fact he threw/pitched at practice earlier.

Alot fewer lessons/mound time and alot more throwing will help alot of these kids stay healthy. Build the arms up before pitching too much at the younger ages (before age 12) and lay off the breaking stuff until they're teenagers.

Want to help most of these kids? Put a rake, shovel or hoe in their hands and get them outside doing yardwork with you. Get them used to using the whole body and hard work. JMHO

S Abrams,

I could not agree with you more! Kids for the most part today do not play enough catch. Neither do they properly get warmed up. They throw ten pitches and say "whew, I am warm man". Gee-wiz they barely even got the blood flowing to the arm. Its like their blood and muscles are just barely waking up to whats going on and then it just gets shut down!

I have had many people ask me to teach their son how to pitch because they see my son throw so well and the first thing io tell them is that if they are willing to go and throw everyday for 45 minutes to an hour to work on location and conditioning then i will teach them. Many feel that is the wrong aproach though. I tell them that if they can't throw that much just playing catch everyday there is no sense teaching them to pitch. It's kind of like the "Karate Kid" where Daniel-son goes and paints the fence, and wax-on wax-off. He is learning more than anything how to first- condition his body and, second- muscle memory to do something without even thinking about it.

I once told somebody that my son probably throws 150-200 throws a day just to stay conditioned. they thought I was crazy. What they tend to forget or not realize is that these throws are just "motion throws" and not much velocity on 90% of them. He is just working on throwing where the mind wants to place it. Actual "pitch counts" for my son is only about 150 per week. So in reality if one is counting "throws", all out pitching only accounts for 10% of what he throws in a week. This is what I feel is proper conditioning- throw a lot at less than full velocity to condition and train the muscles and arm so that the 10% that counts will not tax the arm.

I was playing catch with my 8 year old today. No pitching, just playing catch. I instructed him to take nice and easy throws with good smooth form. Once he got in to his rhythm, he was surprised to hear his nice and easy throws were making nice loud pops in my glove.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
The true causes of all pitching related injuries are well known and they are all mechanically related.

I have read this entire thread and although there is a huge bunch of nonsensical opinions, I award yours as #1.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Straighten your arm out and feel the tension it puts on ligaments not to mention bones. Imagine what it does at pitching speed.
Look at stop frames of a hard throwing pitcher and you will see a lot of them straighten their arms right out. The arm should remain slightly bent as you deaccelerate.

Here is a clip of what I mean. My son at 17 striking out the #1 historical batter from Salem International. His arm remains slightly bent, head is focused on home plate and his motion is towards home.

You have better photo vision than I.

http://s138.photobucket.com/albums/q275/greentw/?action=view¤t=Movie.flv[/QUOTE]

bRENDA NOT SURE WHAT YOU ARE HAVING TROUBLE SEEING.

Bobble...I don't think falling off to the side is such a problem.

If you're timing is off, and you're "flying open" then yes..I would think that may be an issue (this is due to more of a breakdown in the kinetic chain which in and of itself is not what you want).

But just to say someone is falling off to the side doesn't necessarily mean there is a problem. There are lot's of guys who do this and have no problem throwing hard or locating.

There are many ways to throw a baseball. Some more efficient than others.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
bRENDA NOT SURE WHAT YOU ARE HAVING TROUBLE SEEING.

She just registered and sounds like a Marshall guy. Hmmmmm.

quote:

there is a huge bunch of nonsensical opinions, I award yours as #1.

I think she was thinkin similar to Bobble here...at least I think she said his (Yardbird)was the #1 nonsensical....and here I was hoping mine made the least sense....
Maybe I'm again being charitable..giving credit and all.

Robv you are right that many guys fall off to the side and have survived.
It is a bad habit and unfortunately my son has developed it. Yes guys who alway thyrew like that have better timimg and are used to it. My son has the worst dtats on his team after being in the top 5 for the last 2 years. Half his team doeas this. Several have good mechanics and after a few innings start falling off and get blasted. Last season my son was the second lowest era and the lowest OBA until the last game. He then struggled all summer at collegiate summer league. Thsi season I saw him for the 1st time and it was painful to watch.
One game he had a comebacker that he could onl glance over his shoulder as it went behind him. Normally he would be low and squared up and handled that ball with ease.
I think falling off is the ugliest form of throw without mincing words. Unfortunately the lack of knowledege out there allows kids to do this.

If you looked at the video you can full size the page. I have 3 pictures of him throwing this year. If you look at his foot in relation to the 2nd baseb it is lined up perfectly towards home but his upper body is way out of whack as he falls off.
Those are a few photos I sent to show him how grotesque it was,

BobbleheadDoll,

“Yardbird you and Marshall are full of BS.”

Yes, Biological Services

“Marshalls theories are just that and you parrot them well”

Thank you! I pride myself in eliminating all pitching related injuries.
I do not look at this as theories any more since I have been teaching this for ten years now and have had great success with it, Oh yes with no injuries since.

“Big words to make it sound like he knows what he is talking about and baffle naive people.”

Marshall has a Doctoral degree in Exercise physiology, Motor skill acquisition and Kinesiology, He does know what he’s talking about.

Naive, your being a bit tough on yourself!

. “All in an effort to extract money from their wallets.”

ALL of his information is at his web site for FREE. Can you name another expert with his credentials who does the same?

Have you tried any of these mechanical fixes so that you may then actually have a fair opinion? Or are you just parroting what you read from the Marshall haters club.

“I received MMs free letters for a year or so and it was a constant effort to sell me something.”

Marshall does not do this, you are exposing yourself! The only thing he sells is his DVD that is also available for free at his web site.

JdfromFla,

“What I always want the Marshallites to explain is even though MLB "Hates" MM,”

They would have to admit they have been teaching destructive mechanics and their pitch count blame would have to go away!

“I was wondering if the talking points come with the broucher, every single Marshall guy on every single site I've seen them on say the exact same thing, yet never can produce a working example of the claims”

I have produced many in the last ten years and after all this time now have 10 full Marshall mechanic pitchers and the rest use an acquiescing leg lift version so when they get to HS the coaches won’t cut them.

I have never received any brochure or letter asking for one dime!

“I wonder just how he manages to entice folks there.”

The pitchers that end up at Marshalls door have all been told their careers are over because of serious injuries. He tells them with hard work and mechanical changes their careers are not over.

“La, the "new" Marshallite profile is a courtious and intelligent person (Over on LTP is was Coach45...who has since parted ways with the gnome),”

Bill Peterson is a great guy who started his own web site after asking Marshall to market his stuff which Marshall would not do so they parted ways. His son Pat still uses most of Marshalls tenets accept the bottom half drive and I suspect he is acquiescing for a shot at playing.

Roger Thomas,

That’s great, now they will do all the work Marshall started 40 years ago and just recently concluded. Then they will come up with the same conclusions. In the mean time House is still blowing up arms. ASMI just did motion analysis on Joe Williams a full Marshall mechanic pitcher who had a Labrum tear that was ending his career, Marshall advised no surgery for it and now pitches with maximal effort with no pain.

It is apropos that you mention football QB’s. In the mid 70’s and before, QB’s were having many arm problems, along comes a young Kinesiologist who started working with Pro QB’s like Brian Sipe, Billy Kilmer and others to make a mechanical change over to
Pronation (thunb down) instead of supination (thumb up) at release. Now ALL QB instructors teach pronation. I find it amusing that organized football takes on Marshalls teachings but baseball resists. This young Kinesiologist was Dr.Mike Marshall.

Laflippin,

What were Joe’s stats for the 4 games he played for TJ? I believe he did better than every body else, no hallucination there. Go figure, maybe they were repulsed by the motion and did not care about what the ball was doing, this is typical. The same thing happened to Dick Fosbury when he radically changed the High Jump Mechanic and if he would have given up because of what was being said about him he would never have won gold.