What has happened to the art of fouling off two strike pitches?
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It really is an art that can be practiced. My guy is regularly tossed pitches 6"+ off the plate and expected to hit them foul down the 1st baseline or behind him. It has been part of his overall training.
It is part of allowing the ball to get deep in the zone (even when off the plate)
It is part of allowing the ball to get deep in the zone (even when off the plate)
I love this thread and the fact Florida that someone else actually works on spoiling pitches with two strikes. I thought maybe I was "out of touch" teaching my son to shorten up with two strikes make the pitcher work and just try to take the ball back up the middle. It is something that is rarely taught and even frowned upon by some hitting coaches who want 3 big swings every at bat.
What evidence is there that this "art" has diminished?
Anyone think that some hitters intentionally try to just foul off that outside fastball?
Anyone think that some hitters intentionally try to just foul off that outside fastball?
Actually yes.
Yes, hitters intentionally foul off borderline pitches that are not good to hit but are too close to take.
I guess that is why it is an "art". It's called battling at at the plate, waiting for a pitchers "mistake".
It is similar to being a lead-off hitter where the philosophy may be to make the pitcher show all his stuff.
I guess that is why it is an "art". It's called battling at at the plate, waiting for a pitchers "mistake".
It is similar to being a lead-off hitter where the philosophy may be to make the pitcher show all his stuff.
neither of my sons two hitting instructors through this point in his baseball career taught fouling off a borderline pitch with two strikes even though their approach was totally different otherwise. They both wanted full cuts with two strikes.
that was wonderfully stated floridafan and it precisely states why my son takes the approach he does. I can recall when I was young hearing announcers talking about MLB players who struck out more than 100 times in a season needing to take another tour in the minors so they could cut down on their strikeouts. I think the term art is appropriate for exactly this reason.. there seems to be little difference these days in striking out and making an out on a ball put into play whereas in the old days not striking out was a badge of pride a lot of players had in the man to man contest that was pitcher vs. batter.
I teach my son to do it b/c it plays to one of his greatest strengths.. an outstanding batting eye.
that was wonderfully stated floridafan and it precisely states why my son takes the approach he does. I can recall when I was young hearing announcers talking about MLB players who struck out more than 100 times in a season needing to take another tour in the minors so they could cut down on their strikeouts. I think the term art is appropriate for exactly this reason.. there seems to be little difference these days in striking out and making an out on a ball put into play whereas in the old days not striking out was a badge of pride a lot of players had in the man to man contest that was pitcher vs. batter.
I teach my son to do it b/c it plays to one of his greatest strengths.. an outstanding batting eye.
In 2190 career abs Dustin Pedroia has struck out 184 times.
I've never met the guy but it doesnt look like he "shortens up his swing" to me.
I think the amount a player strikes out is slightly more complicated than a two strike approach.
Brian Giles went a season where he swung and missed 70 times. Only 70 times in an entire season.
Some of its physical, alot is mental, but the ablity to not swing and miss is God given in my opinion.
I've never met the guy but it doesnt look like he "shortens up his swing" to me.
I think the amount a player strikes out is slightly more complicated than a two strike approach.
Brian Giles went a season where he swung and missed 70 times. Only 70 times in an entire season.
Some of its physical, alot is mental, but the ablity to not swing and miss is God given in my opinion.
Now I did not indicate that my son has been taught to choke up and take a defensive approach to hitting when he has two strikes. He is on the offensive when he has a club in his hands, and he is always looking to drive the ball through or over the fence.
Intentionally fouling a ball off has no upside...even if you succeed, you don't gain anything...if you fail (swing and miss), you'll strike out. The objective is to get a hit, not not strikeout. Intentionally fouling off a ball does nothing to help you put the ball in play, let alone hard. It's a tie-lose proposition. Why put yourself in that position?
I don't believe that any hitters actually try to hit the ball foul, here's why:
I do not believe that a hitter can decrease his chances of swinging and missing by altering his swing to intentionally hit a ball foul instead of trying to put it in play with a routine swing. There is more room for error in a swing that would put the ball in play.
If a hitter puposefully hits a ball foul, it would mean that at some point he made up his mind to hit the ball foul. I don't believe that anyone decides before the pitch that they are going to hit this pitch foul, but that would mean that hitters make up their mind mid pitch to go from swinging to put it in play to swinging to hit it foul. Is that really what happens?
PS I agree with Walawala. A two strike approach may or may not help cutting down strikeouts, but in my opinion the number one factor in not striking out is not swinging at balls, both early and late in the count.
I don't believe that any hitters actually try to hit the ball foul, here's why:
I do not believe that a hitter can decrease his chances of swinging and missing by altering his swing to intentionally hit a ball foul instead of trying to put it in play with a routine swing. There is more room for error in a swing that would put the ball in play.
If a hitter puposefully hits a ball foul, it would mean that at some point he made up his mind to hit the ball foul. I don't believe that anyone decides before the pitch that they are going to hit this pitch foul, but that would mean that hitters make up their mind mid pitch to go from swinging to put it in play to swinging to hit it foul. Is that really what happens?
PS I agree with Walawala. A two strike approach may or may not help cutting down strikeouts, but in my opinion the number one factor in not striking out is not swinging at balls, both early and late in the count.
I hate any kind of "defensive" swinging in kids!!
S
S
The way strike zones vary and you cannot take lose pitches---fouling them off prevents bad calls and strikeouts and also build the pitch counmt for the opposing pitcher
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
The way strike zones vary and you cannot take lose pitches---fouling them off prevents bad calls and strikeouts and also build the pitch counmt for the opposing pitcher
Yes,take the decision out of the umpires hand.
My son hit most his homeruns with 2 strikes this season,but those pitches were down the middle on full counts that the pitchers were just trying to get over the plate.He will slap a pitch on the edge of the plate to stay alive but put it down the middle and he uses his best swing.
IMO,this is what the better hitters will do.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
The way strike zones vary and you cannot take lose pitches---fouling them off prevents bad calls and strikeouts and also build the pitch counmt for the opposing pitcher
Who amongst us doesn't believe that this is the "perfect approach" to two strike hitting? This line of logic suggests that the outcome will result in a the hitter getting a pitch he can handle which he will center and put it in play at some point in time.
Let me give you another perspective by some hitters:
Hitting a baseball is not done under controlled, lab like, conditions. Hitting is accomplished with round bats against moving round balls. That two strike defensive swing, on a "border line" pitch, just as often results in Strike Three, or a weakly struck ball that is fielded in fair or foul territory (weak pop-up) for an out!
Thus the Theory is this: "Why go after a pitch I can't do anything with when I know three things; it's likely a ball, I can not put it in play with authority?" AND, the fact is, that I have a 50/50 chance it will be called a ball if I take it!
I had a very good hitter, for both power and average, lay this on me after watching him take Strike three, with men on (and no doubt it was a BALL). This kid could differentiate balls from strikes BEFORE they where thrown I believe (his strike zone recognition was that good).
I said; "you know what you may be right." That's why you are going to College on a scholarship and I'm coaching youth baseball!
the end result of everything done in an at bat whether its a two strike approach or earlier in the at bat is to "get a good pitch to hit".
My view is that two strike situation involves understanding the hitter, where they are in the order, the situation and how they got to the 2 strike count. There is no one answer that is successful.
If the hitter got to 2 strikes by seeing everything the pitcher can throw, including his out or best pitch, then he can be much more aggressive.
If the hitter got to 0-2, without seeing the best pitch, I think he has to be less aggressive with his approach.
The higher the level of competition from HS to college to Milb, the smarter the hitter needs to be in this situation.
Just as the pitcher is attempting to set up the hitter, the hitter is looking to out think the pitcher, and get into a hitter's situation, especially seeing every pitch.
In my view, there are some extremely talented hitters in college and Milb who don't need to change the approach depending on the count, but they are the minority.
Most do need foul off pitches with 2 strikes, or have an approach to be able to handle good pitches in those situations. The question is whether they have the bat control, discipline and approach to do that.
Good hitters love 2 strike situations. They feel there is nothing more demoralizing to a pitcher than to give up a hit in those situations, especially against the pitcher's best.
If the hitter got to 2 strikes by seeing everything the pitcher can throw, including his out or best pitch, then he can be much more aggressive.
If the hitter got to 0-2, without seeing the best pitch, I think he has to be less aggressive with his approach.
The higher the level of competition from HS to college to Milb, the smarter the hitter needs to be in this situation.
Just as the pitcher is attempting to set up the hitter, the hitter is looking to out think the pitcher, and get into a hitter's situation, especially seeing every pitch.
In my view, there are some extremely talented hitters in college and Milb who don't need to change the approach depending on the count, but they are the minority.
Most do need foul off pitches with 2 strikes, or have an approach to be able to handle good pitches in those situations. The question is whether they have the bat control, discipline and approach to do that.
Good hitters love 2 strike situations. They feel there is nothing more demoralizing to a pitcher than to give up a hit in those situations, especially against the pitcher's best.
If you're good enough to foul off a pitch, then, just hit it solid instead....
If you can do one, you can do the other....
If you can do one, you can do the other....
Bluedog
You continue to amaze me----I am talking of pitches that are borderline stikes---not real good to hit but possbly can be called strikes---you must be one hell of a coach--are you saying you can hit every pitch solidly that you can foul off?
I think you better stay in your garage
You continue to amaze me----I am talking of pitches that are borderline stikes---not real good to hit but possbly can be called strikes---you must be one hell of a coach--are you saying you can hit every pitch solidly that you can foul off?
I think you better stay in your garage
Two strike routines are different from spoiling pitches, but neither work for most. They often end in double play balls. Why choke up when pitchers are aiming away. You would make the bat shorter. If you can't handle the bat, start with a shorter one. One major league hitting coach said, "if two strike routines work, use them all the time."
I dunno?
baseballpapa, are you saying every hitter needs to have the same approach, and every hitter needs to have the same approach in every situation and count?
Pitchers sure don't.
Why would hitters?
baseballpapa, are you saying every hitter needs to have the same approach, and every hitter needs to have the same approach in every situation and count?
Pitchers sure don't.
Why would hitters?
The mlb batting average is below 200 with 2 strikes. I saw Posey intent on going to right field against Oswalt when he pitched in relief & got it done. That makes sense. I think few can have a two strike routine that works.
quote:Bluedog
You continue to amaze me----I am talking of pitches that are borderline stikes---not real good to hit but possbly can be called strikes---you must be one hell of a coach--are you saying you can hit every pitch solidly that you can foul off?
Even more amazing is that you are saying a hitter can decide he can't solidly hit a certain pitch that is coming at him so he purposely mis-hits it enough to foul it off....
A hitter can mis-hit a pitch on purpose?.....And, I amaze you?....Uh, OK!
Better just have a one strike routine....The routine is, don't get the next strike....
When you get to college and Milb, they have scouting reports on hitters.
Why do you think they have them?
Let's assume they don't pay for this information just to keep scouts employed. Must be a reason.
Hitters seem to know what it is.
So, Blue Dog, you are suggesting/stating the guy batting first in the line up in college and Milb/MLB takes the same exact approach as the 4/5/6 and he does it game, after game, after game, after game, and never adjusts?
Why do you think they have them?
Let's assume they don't pay for this information just to keep scouts employed. Must be a reason.
Hitters seem to know what it is.
So, Blue Dog, you are suggesting/stating the guy batting first in the line up in college and Milb/MLB takes the same exact approach as the 4/5/6 and he does it game, after game, after game, after game, and never adjusts?
there are some hitters who cannot, will not and never will be disciplined hitters at the plate. If your player is more like Vlad, Clemente et al than they are Wade Boggs or Max Bishop then let em hack!. I like the odds of the Boggs approach better. This game is all about working every little percentage to your favor IMO.
People should look up the averages of MLB players depending on the count if you dont think it matters what your approach is. You are putting YOUR player at a severe disadvantage if you are unaware and not sharing this fact.
This past weekend at a showcase event a parent on our team yelled at their player after taking a FIRST pitch strike that was 4 to 6 inches outside "swing the bat!" This sickens me...
People should look up the averages of MLB players depending on the count if you dont think it matters what your approach is. You are putting YOUR player at a severe disadvantage if you are unaware and not sharing this fact.
This past weekend at a showcase event a parent on our team yelled at their player after taking a FIRST pitch strike that was 4 to 6 inches outside "swing the bat!" This sickens me...
One must be careful when looking at averages in different counts as evidence that it is better/worse to be in a certain count...there are a lot of factors that aren't accounted for in those statistics.
For instance:
Which pitchers are most likely to get hitters to a two strike count? The better pitchers are more likely to get to two strikes than lesser pitchers, and hitters averages will be naturally be lower against these tougher pitchers. At least some of the difference in average with two strikes has to be because more two strike counts occur against better pitching.
Another point:
I have heard some coaches advocate going after the first strike and point to high 0-0 averages as evidence that this strategy works. However, these averages can be misleading because hitters will only swing at great pitches to hit on a 0-0 count, and let the marginal strikes that lead to a lower average go by for strike one. This naturally inflates the average of balls put in play in 0-0 counts.
For instance:
Which pitchers are most likely to get hitters to a two strike count? The better pitchers are more likely to get to two strikes than lesser pitchers, and hitters averages will be naturally be lower against these tougher pitchers. At least some of the difference in average with two strikes has to be because more two strike counts occur against better pitching.
Another point:
I have heard some coaches advocate going after the first strike and point to high 0-0 averages as evidence that this strategy works. However, these averages can be misleading because hitters will only swing at great pitches to hit on a 0-0 count, and let the marginal strikes that lead to a lower average go by for strike one. This naturally inflates the average of balls put in play in 0-0 counts.
quote:However, these averages can be misleading because hitters will only swing at great pitches to hit on a 0-0 count, and let the marginal strikes that lead to a lower average go by for strike one.
^ how is this "misleading"?
Interesting thread and comments.
Anyone heard of Luke Appling and his ability to consistently foul off the tough, borderline pitch? Not a power guy but good enough to be a HOF.
Anyone heard of Luke Appling and his ability to consistently foul off the tough, borderline pitch? Not a power guy but good enough to be a HOF.
Misleading was the wrong term to use...my point is that you can't use a high average on first pitch balls put in play to justify changing your approach and swinging at more first ball pitches.
Not sure there is a right or wrong approach. What feels good for your style will probably dictate the approach.
I'm may have been way off base but the basis of a hitting style that I presented to my son consistently thru his life was; "no matter the count or the situation, if you get a pitch worthy of swinging at, go after it with the intent to do serious damage. I want the baseball to explode when you connect with it." I told him if he didn't like that style then he needed to begin working on his speed and bunting skills.
I don't see how you can build power and improve bat speed with out going all out, all the time. Then the learned skill is to do it while remaining under balance and control. I see "trying to foul off pitches" as a defensive drill worthy for a slap hitter. I, however, don't see anything defensive about the art of "driving the baseball with authority."
So far, the approach has worked very well for him.
I'm may have been way off base but the basis of a hitting style that I presented to my son consistently thru his life was; "no matter the count or the situation, if you get a pitch worthy of swinging at, go after it with the intent to do serious damage. I want the baseball to explode when you connect with it." I told him if he didn't like that style then he needed to begin working on his speed and bunting skills.
I don't see how you can build power and improve bat speed with out going all out, all the time. Then the learned skill is to do it while remaining under balance and control. I see "trying to foul off pitches" as a defensive drill worthy for a slap hitter. I, however, don't see anything defensive about the art of "driving the baseball with authority."
So far, the approach has worked very well for him.
I hope we can avoid all the steroid speak and hustle issues but...
All this talk of basically swinging from the heals. How do you reconcile that with one of the best hitters of this era Manny Ramirez saying concerning his approach at the plate: "dont try to do too much"?
There is a fluidity and a grace in Manny's swing.
All this talk of basically swinging from the heals. How do you reconcile that with one of the best hitters of this era Manny Ramirez saying concerning his approach at the plate: "dont try to do too much"?
There is a fluidity and a grace in Manny's swing.
quote:best hitters of this era Manny Ramirez saying concerning his approach at the plate: "dont try to do too much"?
What Manny does and what he said he did has always been two different things!
If you've watched him swing throughout his career I would describe his approach as "controlled aggression." Certainly, he's no panty waist when it comes to hacking at the baseball. And I agree, it's poetry in motion to watch.
Nothing wrong with swinging from the heels with 2 strikes at the borderline pitch....if you guessed right. If you guessed wrong you will be sitting back down more times than not.
No one goes to bat intentionally to foul off a good pitch to hit. But how they handle the pitches that fooled them often determines the outcome of an at-bat.
Classic example is a pitcher with a good fastball and a good curveball...most hitters will expect him to attack the outer half of the plate, hoping to get a fastball. You get the fastball on the black you are looking for you might be able to do some damage but if it is a good curveball you won't hit it with authority but can foul it off to stay alive. Speed and location just doesn't apply to pitching.
Many here will say they can still drive that curveball...if so, they have never seen a good college or MLB curve. They might drive it with a 4 iron because it will be in the dirt. And if the pitcher can cut a fastball inside under your hands when you're looking outside, might as well swing and pray you can foul it off and hope for a mistake on the next pitch. Heaven help you if the pitcher can throw a changeup down for a strike with 2 strikes.
There's aggressive and stupid aggressive when hitting and the dividing line gets really thin at each progressive level. Pitchers/catchers just love the stupid aggressive hitters trying to crush everything no matter the count but the guys that can get wood on anything and everything are the toughest to strike out....those are the guys that frustrate pitchers and cause pitchers to make mistakes.
I hope everyone understands that there are "hitters strikes" and "pitchers strikes". Both are strikes but very different. Simply put, there are strikes that very few hitters will ever hit with authority (pitchers) and the strikes toward the middle of the zone and higher up (hitters) that can be consistently driven. Borderline strikes make pitchers millions of $...mistakes send them back down to Toledo and taking bus trips again. JMHO
No one goes to bat intentionally to foul off a good pitch to hit. But how they handle the pitches that fooled them often determines the outcome of an at-bat.
Classic example is a pitcher with a good fastball and a good curveball...most hitters will expect him to attack the outer half of the plate, hoping to get a fastball. You get the fastball on the black you are looking for you might be able to do some damage but if it is a good curveball you won't hit it with authority but can foul it off to stay alive. Speed and location just doesn't apply to pitching.
Many here will say they can still drive that curveball...if so, they have never seen a good college or MLB curve. They might drive it with a 4 iron because it will be in the dirt. And if the pitcher can cut a fastball inside under your hands when you're looking outside, might as well swing and pray you can foul it off and hope for a mistake on the next pitch. Heaven help you if the pitcher can throw a changeup down for a strike with 2 strikes.
There's aggressive and stupid aggressive when hitting and the dividing line gets really thin at each progressive level. Pitchers/catchers just love the stupid aggressive hitters trying to crush everything no matter the count but the guys that can get wood on anything and everything are the toughest to strike out....those are the guys that frustrate pitchers and cause pitchers to make mistakes.
I hope everyone understands that there are "hitters strikes" and "pitchers strikes". Both are strikes but very different. Simply put, there are strikes that very few hitters will ever hit with authority (pitchers) and the strikes toward the middle of the zone and higher up (hitters) that can be consistently driven. Borderline strikes make pitchers millions of $...mistakes send them back down to Toledo and taking bus trips again. JMHO
quote:There's aggressive and stupid aggressive when hitting and the dividing line gets really thin at each progressive level.
^ this is exactly the reason I have worked and worked with my player on his approach. I have found some resistance to "patience" at the HS and early years showcase level. I am hoping my player will be able to find a college coach who appreciates his approach. Add to this the fact that the breaking stuff gets progressively nastier at each succeeding level and you have a recipe for a player with talent failing because they have no plan.
My whole effort with my player has been drawn towards being IN CONTROL at the plate rather than REACTING to what the pitcher is offering. I dont think anyone here would disagree that you need to be hitting "fat" pitches... my players goal is to get that pitch.
Prime: what I see with Manny is more control than aggression and while I would characterize Pujols in the same manner what I see with him is more aggression than control.
quote:Many here will say they can still drive that curveball...if so, they have never seen a good college or MLB curve.
You can and should drive that curveball or you won't hit at the higher levels. A hitter that gets sucked into that low breaking ball hasn't learned an early lesson; "if it's low, let it go!" Having said that, the best breaking ball hitters I've seen, didn't miss the fastball.
You make great points Abrams and Bothsports Dad. I have spent many years with my son focusing on hitting that good pitch at each at bat. Problem for the hitter is, as Abrams pointed out, sometimes that best pitch is a Pitchers strike.
We often get divided on these discussions by mere semantics. I don't define the term aggressive, as it applies to hitting, as "swinging from the heels."
What many here may not realize, is that you cannot be quick or powerful (aggressive in this application) unless you have learned how to relax. The great hitters with exceptional bat speed, should and do appear effortless in their swings. Physiologically, you can't perform at peak, unless your muscles, and mind, are absolutely at peace. That allows the hitter to wait, recognize the pitch, coil and strike. JMO..
Th
great post Prime... I agree semantics is often the culprit.
two weeks ago my son followed the if its low let it go maxum on a curve and was called out looking for the first time this entire summer/fall showcase season.
I thought the pitch was a bit low out of the strike zone but when we talked after the game I told him this game is one where even when you do everything right you still may not enjoy success in any one snapshot of time.
two weeks ago my son followed the if its low let it go maxum on a curve and was called out looking for the first time this entire summer/fall showcase season.
I thought the pitch was a bit low out of the strike zone but when we talked after the game I told him this game is one where even when you do everything right you still may not enjoy success in any one snapshot of time.
Prime,
Good point about being mentally and physically relaxed when hitting....most have difficulties with this. Having your son focus and understand what "his pitch" is has helped him be a step ahead of other hitters his age by not going after "pitchers pitches" early in the count. Sounds like you've done alot work with your son on the mental side of the game which will pay big dividends the higher he advances.
Playing to your own strengths and not the opponents is pretty important in any sport; a hitter has perhaps the most difficult time doing this in all of sports because the defense controls the ball, not the offense. Its why the "stupid aggressive" hitter that tries to pull that low pitch on the outer half gets himself out instead of staying back and attacking the pitch the other way.
Good curveballs simply do not get driven consistently by anyone, at any level. Bad curveballs get stung by some. Hanging curveballs get sent to the cheap seats by most. You are 100% correct in hitting the fastball first because no one in the history of MLB baseball has made a living hitting good curveballs.
Hitters tip their caps to pitchers alot more often than pitchers tip their caps to hitters. As much as I enjoyed hitting, I always wished I'd been good enough to pitch and control the game. Never was good enough so I became a catcher so at least I'd have some input.
Good point about being mentally and physically relaxed when hitting....most have difficulties with this. Having your son focus and understand what "his pitch" is has helped him be a step ahead of other hitters his age by not going after "pitchers pitches" early in the count. Sounds like you've done alot work with your son on the mental side of the game which will pay big dividends the higher he advances.
Playing to your own strengths and not the opponents is pretty important in any sport; a hitter has perhaps the most difficult time doing this in all of sports because the defense controls the ball, not the offense. Its why the "stupid aggressive" hitter that tries to pull that low pitch on the outer half gets himself out instead of staying back and attacking the pitch the other way.
Good curveballs simply do not get driven consistently by anyone, at any level. Bad curveballs get stung by some. Hanging curveballs get sent to the cheap seats by most. You are 100% correct in hitting the fastball first because no one in the history of MLB baseball has made a living hitting good curveballs.
Hitters tip their caps to pitchers alot more often than pitchers tip their caps to hitters. As much as I enjoyed hitting, I always wished I'd been good enough to pitch and control the game. Never was good enough so I became a catcher so at least I'd have some input.
Abrams, you're so smart! 
Don't have to hit to be a catcher!
Don't have to hit to be a catcher!
Bluedog,
That's what the coaches always said about me ....smart and can flatout hit.
I was the one that always thought being a pitcher would be cool by shutting down the other team. Wasn't to be.
That's what the coaches always said about me ....smart and can flatout hit.
I was the one that always thought being a pitcher would be cool by shutting down the other team. Wasn't to be.
Blueddog
If you are a catcher you had better be the best defensive catsher since Wes Westrum to not have to hit
You continue to amaze me
If you are a catcher you had better be the best defensive catsher since Wes Westrum to not have to hit
You continue to amaze me
