U1 in C position overrules PL check swing call

Shame on the base guy! He/She will have a good talking to during the post game debriefing.

This is also why I don't say that any longer... I just call the pitch and if they ask I go...

BAD JOB by the base ump...would not want to work with he/she again! He/she would not want to hear what I have to say after the game. Maybe there should have been a better pre-game between the umpires!

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Immediately following PL ump's call, Infield ump
in C position announced loudly "no, he went" showed the out sign and said "batters out".

Holy Cow!

Bad job by the PLATE ump. He MUST go to his partner if asked to do so by the catcher. Also, there are certain situations where it is completely acceptable for the base ump to ring up a strike without being asked.

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Also, there are certain situations where it is completely acceptable for the base ump to ring up a strike without being asked.

But if we take the OP as is, this isn't one of those times.

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Originally posted by pilsner:

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Also, there are certain situations where it is completely acceptable for the base ump to ring up a strike without being asked.

But if we take the OP as is, this isn't one of those times.

Can't tell from the OP. It doesn't specify where the runners were, or whether the pitch was caught.

Agree that the Plate Ump screwed up. I don't understand the reluctance to go for help on check swings. Worst thing that can happen is you get another strike.

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It doesn't specify where the runners were, or whether the pitch was caught.

Precisely; that's why I said "as is".
The OP referenced only a simple swing/no swing situation.

Granted, the plate ump should have asked for help when requested by the catcher; but he didn't. He made a definitive ruling of no swing. Given that, the base ump had no business hijacking the plate ump's call.

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2-2 count on batter. Was a possible check swing on next pitch; catcher ask PL ump if he went and PL ump announced audibly that "he did not" and then said "ball 3" and showed 3-2 count.

Immediately following PL ump's call, Infield ump
in C position announced loudly "no, he went" showed the out sign and said "batters out".

This was a JUCO D1 game 2 man crew. I've never seen this happen.

Would like to know your thoughts.

I do not see in this post where anyone (catcher/coach) asked for a check with the base umpire, I do read the catcher asked the PL ump if he went, if they did ask I would certainly go to my partner and ask for help.
The UIC shall call and count balls and strikes.
The Field Umpire shall aid the umpire in chief in administering the rules. He shall make all decisions on the bases except those reserved for the UIC.
I do not believe that the BU should be over ruling the plate umpire without being asked for help by the PU. I'll admit I do not know JUCO rules.

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Originally posted by pilsner:

Granted, the plate ump should have asked for help when requested by the catcher; but he didn't. He made a definitive ruling of no swing. Given that, the base ump had no business hijacking the plate ump's call.

The plate umpire violated a rule. Maybe the base ump was doing him a huge favor by saving him from a successful protest. And it is by no means a hijack. If the plate ump is asked to check with his partner, by rule it becomes the base ump's call.

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Originally posted by POLOGREEN:
I'll admit I do not know JUCO rules.

In this instance, they are not the same as FED rules.

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Originally posted by POLOGREEN:
I do not see in this post where anyone (catcher/coach) asked for a check with the base umpire, I do read the catcher asked the PL ump if he went

If the PU thought it was a swing, he would have called a strike. There is no question the catcher was asking for an appeal.

The difference in this instance is Fed does not
mandate the PL go to U1 while college (or JUCO D1)PL must go to U1 on appeal by catcher or coach. Correct?

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Originally posted by Chin Music:
The difference in this instance is Fed does not
mandate the PL go to U1 while college (or JUCO D1)PL must go to U1 on appeal by catcher or coach. Correct?

Yes. JUCO plays NCAA rules with a few non-playing rule exceptions: mercy rule, scoreboard not mandatory, etc. They can vary by Division and by Conference.

Dash...your comments make sense now. When U1 overruled PL the Coach that the call went against did not react at all. The checked swing was definitely close to or just past the front of the plate.

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Originally posted by Chin Music:
Dash...your comments make sense now. When U1 overruled PL the Coach that the call went against did not react at all. The checked swing was definitely close to or just past the front of the plate.

FYI, We use the batter's front hip (rather than the plate) as the relevant reference.

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Originally posted by dash_riprock:
FYI, We use the batter's front hip (rather than the plate) as the relevant reference.

Kinda, Dash. If it passes the front hip, it is, by rule, a swing. If it doesn't, it is still a judgment call to if he offered.

(Not saying I agree with the way NCAA has chosen to go with this, but...)

And, I say they both screwed up depending on the situation.

PU should ask when the defense appeals. AND, BU keeps quiet until the PU appeals. He does not offer judgment in a situation where an immediate call is not necessary.

One question is: Was it an U3K? If not, BU shuts his mouth until PU asks.

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Originally posted by dash_riprock:


The plate umpire violated a rule. Maybe the base ump was doing him a huge favor by saving him from a successful protest. And it is by no means a hijack. If the plate ump is asked to check with his partner, by rule it becomes the base ump's call.

Though the PU violated the rule, it does not become the BU's call by rule. At least, not under OBR while I know this JUCO and I am not familiar with a change to it they may have made.

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The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike. The manager may not complain that the umpire made an improper call, but only that he did not ask his partner for help. Field umpires must be alerted to the request from the plate umpire and quickly respond. Managers may not protest the call of a ball or strike on the pretense they are asking for information about a half swing.

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Originally posted by Mr Umpire:

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Originally posted by dash_riprock:


The plate umpire violated a rule. Maybe the base ump was doing him a huge favor by saving him from a successful protest. And it is by no means a hijack. If the plate ump is asked to check with his partner, by rule it becomes the base ump's call.

Though the PU violated the rule, it does not become the BU's call by rule. At least, not under OBR while I know this JUCO and I am not familiar with a change to it they may have made.

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The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike. The manager may not complain that the umpire made an improper call, but only that he did not ask his partner for help. Field umpires must be alerted to the request from the plate umpire and quickly respond. Managers may not protest the call of a ball or strike on the pretense they are asking for information about a half swing.

You have the right rule (9.02(c) Comment), you just need to read a little further down. The PU must appeal if asked (on a called ball), and if the BU calls it a strike, then by rule, it is a strike.

With all due respect I still don't see where the catcher asked "could you ask for help" all I see is;

2-2 count on batter. Was a possible check swing on next pitch; catcher ask PL ump if he went and PL ump announced audibly that "he did not" and then said "ball 3" and showed 3-2 count.

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Originally posted by POLOGREEN:
With all due respect I still don't see where the catcher asked "could you ask for help" all I see is;

2-2 count on batter. Was a possible check swing on next pitch; catcher ask PL ump if he went and PL ump announced audibly that "he did not" and then said "ball 3" and showed 3-2 count.

With all due respect back to you, if a catcher asks me that, my next act is to point at my partner (left hand) and say "Bob - Did he go?"

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Originally posted by dash_riprock:
With all due respect back to you, if a catcher asks me that, my next act is to point at my partner (left hand) and say "Bob - Did he go?"

Yep--if a catcher or manager asks if he went, you might as well ask. At a minimum, it saves a step, and it also prevents what could be perceived as unnecessary obstinatism.

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Originally posted by dash_riprock:

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Originally posted by Mr Umpire:

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Originally posted by dash_riprock:


The plate umpire violated a rule. Maybe the base ump was doing him a huge favor by saving him from a successful protest. And it is by no means a hijack. If the plate ump is asked to check with his partner, by rule it becomes the base ump's call.

Though the PU violated the rule, it does not become the BU's call by rule. At least, not under OBR while I know this JUCO and I am not familiar with a change to it they may have made.

quote:

The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike. The manager may not complain that the umpire made an improper call, but only that he did not ask his partner for help. Field umpires must be alerted to the request from the plate umpire and quickly respond. Managers may not protest the call of a ball or strike on the pretense they are asking for information about a half swing.

You have the right rule (9.02(c) Comment), you just need to read a little further down. The PU must appeal if asked (on a called ball), and if the BU calls it a strike, then by rule, it is a strike.

Yes, but no where does it say the BU calls it without the appeal. If the PU doesn't appeal, then BU says nothing. The only exception is the PBUC mechanic on a Voluntary Strike but that is reserved specifically to a potential U3K where the batter may become a runner. Again, no rule suggests it at all.

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Originally posted by Mr Umpire:

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Originally posted by dash_riprock:

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Originally posted by Mr Umpire:

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Originally posted by dash_riprock:


The plate umpire violated a rule. Maybe the base ump was doing him a huge favor by saving him from a successful protest. And it is by no means a hijack. If the plate ump is asked to check with his partner, by rule it becomes the base ump's call.

Though the PU violated the rule, it does not become the BU's call by rule. At least, not under OBR while I know this JUCO and I am not familiar with a change to it they may have made.

quote:

The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike. The manager may not complain that the umpire made an improper call, but only that he did not ask his partner for help. Field umpires must be alerted to the request from the plate umpire and quickly respond. Managers may not protest the call of a ball or strike on the pretense they are asking for information about a half swing.

You have the right rule (9.02(c) Comment), you just need to read a little further down. The PU must appeal if asked (on a called ball), and if the BU calls it a strike, then by rule, it is a strike.

Yes, but no where does it say the BU calls it without the appeal. If the PU doesn't appeal, then BU says nothing. The only exception is the PBUC mechanic on a Voluntary Strike but that is reserved specifically to a potential U3K where the batter may become a runner. Again, no rule suggests it at all.

Many accepted mechanics will not be found in the rule book, case book or manual. That's where training and experience come in.

dash I respect your opinions, you are a font of great knowledge. I am not a college umpire although I have been umpiring since I got back from the military in 1972 and spent 14 years as a varsity coach, so I have been on both sides of this. One time in my career I did not ask my partner for help and I regret not doing it. I do respect your opinion and ment no disrespect to you. I am here to learn and share, that's all.

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Originally posted by POLOGREEN:
dash I respect your opinions, you are a font of great knowledge. I am not a college umpire although I have been umpiring since I got back from the military in 1972 and spent 14 years as a varsity coach, so I have been on both sides of this. One time in my career I did not ask my partner for help and I regret not doing it. I do respect your opinion and ment no disrespect to you. I am here to learn and share, that's all.

POLO - it was a discussion, not an argument. We all benefit from legitimate discussions.