Understanding High School velocities?

If you go back and search through the pitching forum you will find all kinds of stuff on this.

Typical starters in Ca, not elite. Elite 90+ and you can see this at any age from late Soph/Jr on depending on physical development. Of course you will have kids throwing slower and still getting some innings.

Fresh: 70-74

Soph: 76-80

Jr: 78-82

Sr: 80-84

A general rule is... take freshman velocity and add 2-3 mph for each year until they top out (which could be soph year ).

Thanks for the input so far.

Just trying to get a better understanding in the development of arms.

I would have to say BOF is spot on with the So Cal Area.

IEBSBL: These are from a Stalker over the HS years from my son...not "ask dad-7" numbers. I would say at the Varsity level that it is not unusual to see a high 80's thrower on a HS team,(86-88) typically this kid would be their number one. In a 30 game schedule we would see 1, sometimes 2 per year 90+ kid.

I would quite often score keep and log pitchers velo for the coach and it was hilarious on how many times a “dad” would come over and be shocked that his 90MPH son was actually throwing 84.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
IEBSBL: These are from a Stalker over the HS years from my son...not "ask dad-7" numbers. I would say at the Varsity level that it is not unusual to see a high 80's thrower on a HS team,(86-88) typically this kid would be their number one. In a 30 game schedule we would see 1, sometimes 2 per year 90+ kid.

That’s pretty much the same we see up here in NorCal as well. There’s a lot of talk and hype about all the 90+ kids out there, but when push comes to shove, they’re pretty rare.

quote:

I would quite often score keep and log pitchers velo for the coach and it was hilarious on how many times a “dad” would come over and be shocked that his 90MPH son was actually throwing 84.

Hope you can satisfy my curiosity on a couple things?

Were you logging all pitches, and was the coach using the numbers during the game for something or for some other reason that took place later. If that’s what it was, do you know what he was doing with the numbers?

One reason I ask, is some years back I was asked to do the same thing, and I dutifully did it to the best of my ability. Plus tracked the numbers as a statistic and related it as best I could to the situation. After several games, I asked what the numbers were being used for, and couldn’t get an answer better than, “I like to know how hard they’re throwing”.

Stats I was not logging all pitches. I would get FB and off speed pitch velocities by inning. We would just give them to the coach and he would discuss with kids. More of a checkpoint. If there was a lot going on I might miss an inning here or there. Most of the pitchers who were interested would stop by and get the numnbers for themselves.

When my son got to college he was part of a class of 6 or 8 pitchers, all of whom supposedly threw 90 plus. As it turned out, 2 or 3 threw mid to upper 80's. As my son says, "Dad, there's HS 90 and there's College 90."

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
I would quite often score keep and log pitchers velo for the coach and it was hilarious on how many times a “dad” would come over and be shocked that his 90MPH son was actually throwing 84.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
Stats I was not logging all pitches. I would get FB and off speed pitch velocities by inning. We would just give them to the coach and he would discuss with kids. More of a checkpoint. If there was a lot going on I might miss an inning here or there. Most of the pitchers who were interested would stop by and get the numnbers for themselves.

Aw shucks! Ya just had to go and explain. I was honestly very jealous and impressed that you could keep score and gun the pitchers at the same time.

But really, even if you only did what you said, I’m impressed. Unless I read the signs from the coach coming to the catcher, I find I have to concentrate so hard on the pitch to see what it was, I miss other things taking place that are much more important to scoring, like watching the runners.

Its like when I wanted to get a contact to contact time for hitters to 1st base. I’d sit there with the stopwatch, but half the time forget to start it on contact, and when I did get the start time, more often than not I’d miss the contact at 1st because I was watching the play. I was getting some get information that looked like it would certainly have some use, but I had to quit doing it because the scoring of the game suffered.

When my boy was throwing in college, the HC and I experimented with all kinds of way to get him good data on pitchers, and it ended up that him having the last game’s starter handle the gun and calling the pitch type, with one of the bench players writing it all down, then me entering the data and presenting it to him was the only way that worked well enough for both he and I. Its so important that whoever’s doing one of these “jobs” be able to concentrate on that job, whether its scoring, charting, or even coaching.

But the reason I was asking about the velocities was I keep looking for ways people use them as “’teaching” tools that makes sense to me. Things like you saying they were used as a “checkpoint”, but I’m not sure I know what that means. What would they be checking?

I made one of the local pitching instructors a program that allowed him to enter a pitch quality defined by him, and a velocity for each pitch type every time a student would take a lesson. He used them as base values and later ones as checkpoints to show progress or lack thereof. That way he could see how his students were progressing over a course of years or even just a season. Is that the kind of checkpoint you’re talking about?

The velocities posted are actually very real for our area as well. During our season, we saw 4 kids above 85, 2 of those above 88, and one above 90. Most of the good pitchers on the teams we played were around the 80-84 mark. Our own two pitchers that were good on our team were both 80-84 and we did well. The two were a freshman and a sophmore though.

The two kids who were at or above 88 were both scouted and the one was drafted but chose to go play college ball instead. Pretty much all of the kids who graduated last year who were in the 80-87 range are playing college ball now to the best of my knowledge.

Stats and BOF...The other interesting thing I see is that many people do not have an understanding of the "90" kids. When a lot of people hear 90 they think that they just throw 90 when in truth they "Touch 90." I was blessed last year and had 2 players that hit 90 but they were very different. I had one kid that work at about 84-86 and hit 90 a few times over the course of the year. He could not be effective and throw at his max. I had another kid that worked 86-89 and hit 90 on a regular basis and topped off at 92 in the Area Code games and he could pitch effectively at max velocity.

BOF...the dads that ask are funny and they do not typically have a clue. I was scouting an opponent one year and had my radar gun with me. The pitcher topped at 79. His dad walks up and said, "Capped at 85 right?" I looked at him mulled over my answer and decided on, "Pretty close."

quote:

Originally posted by IEBSBL:
Stats and BOF...The other interesting thing I see is that many people do not have an understanding of the "90" kids. When a lot of people hear 90 they think that they just throw 90 when in truth they "Touch 90." I was blessed last year and had 2 players that hit 90 but they were very different. I had one kid that work at about 84-86 and hit 90 a few times over the course of the year. He could not be effective and throw at his max. I had another kid that worked 86-89 and hit 90 on a regular basis and topped off at 92 in the Area Code games and he could pitch effectively at max velocity.

You were blessed, but isn’t it a shame that so many believe your situation is normal for HSV? It creates so many problems and misunderstandings, and in the end causes a lot of players and parents a lot of angst and feelings of inadequacy, when there’s no reason for it.

I really wish the entire game would go back to the mindset of results rather than numbers on a gun, but as long as its so difficult to project accurately, even with the help of a gun, it will never change. There isn’t a better CYA tool available.

I completely agree with everything you say. In regards to the Gun last year was my 12th year as a head coach and I have only had 3 players ever hit the 90 mark. Shocker, 1 drafted, 1 at a D1 and 1 committed D1. In regards to the results I 100% agree. Our #3 guy topped out at 85 and was just as successful as our top 2 guys. I have a player that is #4 on our staff, Freshman started in the OF. He is a decent pitcher already but probably will NEVER touch 90 based on laws of averages. His father stated, "we got to get him throwing 90 by his senior year." By his senior year this kid will be a great pitcher but if dad is so wrapped up in the Velo he will never truly see how good his son is.

I have a question for the coaches that have had 90's guys in HS. Is it normal for the velocity to drop off after a couple of innings? He can hit it sometimes after the second but it isn't nearly as often. Maybe once an inning. He is in good shape. We are lucky to have a kid that can hit 91-92. He has already signed with ASU.

I think it is a person to person situation. I have had 3 guys that could hit 90.

Player 1) Player 1 could hit 90 first couple of innings and then died off (kind of like the guy you are describing)

Player 2) Every time he touched 90 was in the 4th inning or later.

Player 3) Hit 90 on the gun multiple times every game and in all innings and his velocity never dipped.

Iebsl,
player 1 drafted relief picther?
Player 2 D1
Player 3 high draft pick?

Am I close?

Just wanted to say I am dang glad to have the kid on our team. Just curious as to what might happen on draft day.

Maybe it's just me...but it seems there are SO MANY different factors that will effect velocity for these kids.

Growth, maturity, mechanics, health etc etc.

To me it's pretty silly to say "This is the velocity a FR should be at, and this is where a SR should be at..."

Not to mention the difference in velocity taking into account the radar gun, the conditions, the person running it etc etc.

My kid is starting to mention velocity alot..."so and so said this kid threw this hard..." etc etc.

I'm trying to keep him away from it. He finally got gunned the other night, and I can't believe he was actually frustrated with his readings. I only let him throw a handful of pitches to the gun, and he was at 77/79 mph.

Maybe I'll let him read part of this thread and he won't think he's "Throwing slow" for a 14 y/o FR.

I swear sometimes the radar guns do more harm than good, when the kids know what the reading are.

Doughnut man you got 1 out of 3 correct, maybe 2.

Player 1 drafted 3rd Round as an OF

Player 2 (You are correct)

Player 3: Yet to be determined, he is a senior, however he has already committed to a D1.

quote:

Originally posted by ctandc:
…I swear sometimes the radar guns do more harm than good, when the kids know what the reading are.

A radar gun is exactly the same as a gun that shoots bullets, in that what harm or good it does depends entirely on its use. Let’s face it, in the hands of a Highway Patrolman, it serves a very useful and beneficial purpose. In the hands of a scout, its one of only a very few measurable things, like size or foot speed that help a college or professional team compare players against one another. And especially now, when a ‘ship can easily be worth 6 figures, and a contract 7, I can see where a gun has a place in the game.

But, try as I may, I just can’t find a good reason for a dad to carry one around, and I also have difficultly believing coaches have a need to use one for training, but that’s a matter of conjecture, since at least they aren’t generally using it as a promotion tool to “market” their child. I wonder if every dad would be proud, who carries around his gun to games, if he knew what 99% of the people thought about him for doing that.

This is always an interesting topic here when it comes up.

1. The facts are that if you want to improve something you have to measure it.

2. Like it or not being able to pitch in college has one primary variable and that is velocity. Don't kid yourself otherwise. You will hear college coaches talking about pitchability, heart, throwing strikes all kinds of other mumbo jumbo, but in the end all they care about is velocity. If you have velo they will teach you all of the other stuff, without velo who cares. Bring on the men’s league….

BUM said it here quite nicely and I am probably butchering this a bit something like "you want to be obsessed with velocity, but not focused only on it" You need to learn pitches, pitching philosophy, holding runners etc, but if you want to be pitching in college you better be a bit obsessed with it.

This is one reason that TPM and I jump on younger players dads who talk about little johnny striking out x number of 12 YO at some tournament. Fo - get - a bout it. Who cares. Put the CB away until you get to HS and get obsessed with throwing the ball by little Jimmy.

Coach May has a list of pitchers that have pitched for him in HS and some start at 84 and leave at 86, some start at 70 and leave at 90. There are too many variables involved that everyone fits the same mold. He puts this list up about every 3 months.

Velocity is developed through 1. Mechanics. 2. Strength and conditioning. 3. Continually working at it day in and day out 4. Gods gift to you (or not) (genetics)

Everyone (dads mostly) want to know where they (their sons) stand in the norm, but in the end it does not mean all that much. All you can do is work as hard as you can and get to your genetic max. The mystery is that no one really knows what that is and what your own curve looks like.

And that is all I have to say about that…..

I agree the radar gun does have it's purpose. I just don't see the rush to the gun when kids aren't even shaving yet...or is that just me?

Every pitcher should really focus on velocity if they want to play after HS. Do whatever it takes I say. For some it's just a matter of practice and conditioning. For others it's a matter of changing one's mechanics. If one were to poll HS pitchers and ask what the number one thing they wish they could improve, the majority would say "velocity". Personally I think HS players should be clocked regularly to see if they are making improvements. They should also be videoed regularly to see mechanical changes from outing to outing. Above all, the proper teaching needs to be reinforced to pitchers so that either they make the correct adjustments or keep the right mechanics. I watched a couple kids in our program, whom didn't gain velocity all through high school. Theirs was an issue of unknowledgable people changing the natural mechanics and causing them a decrease instead of an increase in velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
1. The facts are that if you want to improve something you have to measure it.

Ask yourself why your instructor doesn't use measurement tools to verify his claims that he can make you faster/better at pitching/catching/hitting.

Because you will stop paying the instructor if there isn't any measurable improvement.

I agree that to go to the next level you must have velocity. We teach velocity but we rarely talk about it. All of our Gun work is done privately and it is not something we share with our players until the end of the year. I learned about 2 years ago what velo can do to you. We had a pitcher that was coming off a bone chip situation. Due to the obvious lay off in his arm his velocity dipped. After his first start our gun guy was asked by him what he hit and when the kid found our he was depressed for a couple of weeks and thought about quitting. He thought he was done. This is the same kid that is now pitching D1. A radar IS just like a gun. In the right hand it is helpful, in the wrong hand it can be harmful.

quote:

Originally posted by IEBSBL:
A radar IS just like a gun. In the right hand it is helpful, in the wrong hand it can be harmful.

Oh brother. In your own example, it motivated the kid to become a D1 pitcher.

Does a 375 foot fence depress a hitter? (No jokes please )

A radar gun is just a measurement tool, like a watch, a stopwatch, or a yardstick. No more, no less.

Stats,
So what did 99% of the people think of Lincecum's dad?

Sultan...Uh you miss understood my example and there is some background to the story that I did not share as well. This kid was motivated to be a D1 pitcher since he stepped on our campus as a Freshman and was well on his way to it. Even during the time he was injured I believed he was a D1 pitcher. The radar gun incident did not motivate him to become a D1 pitcher, what he did for a period of time was make him doubt he would ever get there.

You are right about the radar gun being a tool and I believe I said that. I do believe like any tool it can be a bad thing. Let's look at your stop watch example. How many time in the NFL do players get drafted higher off a 40 time and don't pan out when players that run a slow 40 time become great players. In this instance the stop watch becomes a tool that can hurt individuals.

CADad...Can you elaborate a little more on Lincecum's father?

I bring my digital camera to all games and shoot a little video of each pitcher on our team. Sometimes I shoot opposing teams pitchers also. I am then able to extrapolate from the frame by frame a general velocity for each pitcher (within 1-2mph accuracy). I have been doing that for 5 years and it has worked out great for our pitchers to know what they are throwing without actually throwing in front of a gun and attracting undue attention.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Stats,
So what did 99% of the people think of Lincecum's dad?

Haven’t got a clue. I don’t know squat about the guy.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
…Personally I think HS players should be clocked regularly to see if they are making improvements. …

And what do you do with the ones who aren’t improving fast enough? Cut them from the roster, make them run poles ‘til they puke, change them into OFrs, beat them, or something else?

I guess I must be some kind of dullard. I thought HSB was about putting a team on the field that gave your team the best chance to win, not developing arms to go to college or thee pros. 2 years ago we got a transfer from another school in the district. Great kid, great athlete, great student, great everything, and as a So could occasionally get dang close to 90 when someone put the gun on him.

That year he was our hardest thrower, and last year there consistently harder than the kid who eventually got drafted in the 3rd round. And based on what I heard about him in the summer, and what I saw from him in the fall, it looks like he’s gonna be at very very best, our #2 starter. He throws hard as heck, but he walks and hits a lot of batters. But what’s worse, his FB may be the straightest I’ve ever seen, and lots of real shots come off of it.

After what happened with our “stud” last year, I’m gonna bet this kid gets a lot of offers from some big programs, but I’m guessing that our coach is gonna be very judicious about who he pitches against. Would it be great if this kid threw hard AND kept the ball off the barrel of the bat, AND didn’t give up lots of free passes? Of course! But velocity in and of itself doesn’t insure anything. Personally, I like to look at players and how everything is progressing, not just velocity.

I think that if a parent wants to measure velocity of their own player, then by all means it's ok, but I am not sure why it has to be used on pitchers that most likely will never go beyond the HS game.

Our son's HS or travel coach did not measure son's velocity (neither did dad), it wasn't necessary, it was obvious that he threw hard, everyone left that to the scouts and college coaches. One of the reasons being ( that he didn't) was also that it wasn't necessary to do so in front of the other guys who were probably not going to play beyond HS. He got his readings from the scouts. Now if the scouts are not taking readings on a player themselves, why is it necessary for someone to do it?

For many pitchers it can be used as a diagnostic tool for possible injury consideration and that's a perk.

Let me dive into the why from a coaching standpoint, at least in our program.

1) We measure this to see if there is an improvement or if the player has leveled out. No we don't cut them or make them run poles.

2) We measure this to find what is the best speed to throw and off speed off of.

3) We measure this in game to see when the velocity drops off during games.

4) We measure this so that when parents throw a fit that their son should be throwing instead of another kid we have 1 more tool that is provable that we can go to in the discussion.

I would concur with IEBSBL. I started shooting video of my sin as a tool that we could use to measure various facets with- mechanics, change in offspeed, location, and of course velocity. I have used the ability to measure and compare velocity to mainly improve his offspeed stuff. I also have used it in at least 4 occasions to correct mechancal issues that was hindering his velocity. Also have used it to notice the velocity changes in different game situations. Knowing the velocity itself of all pitches can really be used as a great tool in the right hands.

quote:

I started shooting video of my sin

Now that's what I'd call a classic Freudian slip... It's hard to keep your videotaped sins from showing up on the internet these days...

quote:

Originally posted by laflippin:

quote:

I started shooting video of my sin

Now that's what I'd call a classic Freudian slip... It's hard to keep your videotaped sins from showing up on the internet these days...

That is funny, didn't even notice it.

BTW, I enjoy your videos.

quote:

Originally posted by IEBSBL:
Let me dive into the why from a coaching standpoint, at least in our program.

1) We measure this to see if there is an improvement or if the player has leveled out. No we don't cut them or make them run poles.

2) We measure this to find what is the best speed to throw and off speed off of.

3) We measure this in game to see when the velocity drops off during games.

4) We measure this so that when parents throw a fit that their son should be throwing instead of another kid we have 1 more tool that is provable that we can go to in the discussion.

Thanks for being enough to open yourself up to questions and criticism by stating your reasons. I hope these come off as the former, not the latter.

What difference does it make if a player has improved, leveled out, or even lost a bit of velocity? I’m trying to find out if its just a matter of curiosity on your part, or perhaps you use the information to determine the pecking order of your pitchers.

Can you explain how you determine what the best speed off of which to throw an off speed pitch?

Do you have a record of the game velocities? If you do, I’d love to have a copy in a format like a SS. I’ve heard that pitcher’s velocities drop, but I’ve never seen data for it. The only way I can accommodate that thought in my mind, is if a pitcher starts out throwing 100%, since there’s no place to go but down. From everything I can find out, that 100% mentality is the difference between a pitcher and a thrower, perfectly demonstrated by Verlander the last couple of seasons.

I seldom hear anyone with a depth of knowledge advocate any starting pitcher throw at 100%, so what I’m guessing is, when you see a pitcher’s velocity drop, you coach him to change his approach so that he takes a bit off early to leave some gas in the tank for later on.

Well, after hearing the BS parents come up with over the years from sitting in the stands for so many games(and of course being a parent myself, I can certainly understand why some coaches would want another weapon to fight the ignorance/stupidity. But tell me honestly, how many times in a season do you get into the “Why isn’t my kid …” discussion? Also, do you make your player’s stats public during the season?

Thanx.