I despise radar guns. That's all I ever hear pitchers talk about, "velo" (hate the abbreviation too). I've seen good kids stop pitching because a number didn't get high enough (in their minds).
GBM,
Thanks for the props, I'm very glad you enjoy the video collection on YouTube. The site is getting a lot of views lately.
http://www.youtube.com/user/laflippin?feature=mhee
As far as radar and video analysis of HS-aged pitchers goes, I don't think there's a single answer that makes sense for all. Virtually any measurement of performance can be abused. On the other hand, coaches are measuring performance one way or the other all the time, in many different ways. I like the radar gun/firearm analogy that someone else already made...the potential for harm vs good really depends on the person who puts his finger on the trigger.
Thanks for the props, I'm very glad you enjoy the video collection on YouTube. The site is getting a lot of views lately.
http://www.youtube.com/user/laflippin?feature=mhee
As far as radar and video analysis of HS-aged pitchers goes, I don't think there's a single answer that makes sense for all. Virtually any measurement of performance can be abused. On the other hand, coaches are measuring performance one way or the other all the time, in many different ways. I like the radar gun/firearm analogy that someone else already made...the potential for harm vs good really depends on the person who puts his finger on the trigger.
quote:Originally posted by laflippin:
GBM,
Thanks for the props, I'm very glad you enjoy the video collection on YouTube. The site is getting a lot of views lately.
http://www.youtube.com/user/laflippin?feature=mhee
As far as radar and video analysis of HS-aged pitchers goes, I don't think there's a single answer that makes sense for all. Virtually any measurement of performance can be abused. On the other hand, coaches are measuring performance one way or the other all the time, in many different ways. I like the radar gun/firearm analogy that someone else already made...the potential for harm vs good really depends on the person who puts his finger on the trigger.
In fact, I was watching super slow motion you made of Javier Vasquez just last night. I have had many a coach try to teach my son "more follow through" and I have always left him alone on it (if it aint broke don't fix it) My own son pitches a lot like him- a lot of similarities. Here is a video of my son on youtube from this last year when he was a freshman (Note his arm slot, and follow through)-
GBM son fastball
Here is your video of Vasquez I used to show my son that his follow through was fine (note also his arm slot and follow through).
Vasquez pitching mechanics
Hope you don't mind but I have use your videos as a reference and teaching tool all the time with son and have referred quite a few people to your videos as proof positive of what pitchers "really do". I shoot my own video of our pitchers and batters to show them things they can improve upon and what it look like when they do it right.
quote:Originally posted by NDD:
I despise radar guns. That's all I ever hear pitchers talk about, "velo" (hate the abbreviation too). I've seen good kids stop pitching because a number didn't get high enough (in their minds).
You can win without great velocity. Pitching requires thinking, and only in the last 15-20 years has it been more and more difficult for softer throwing pitchers to even be signed to an MLB contract. I'm not totally sure Maddux would be signed today, mainly because he didn't hit 95 mph with regularity.
Stats4Gnats....here are the questions you posed and my answers to them. Please let me know if you have any other questions.
What difference does it make if a player has improved, leveled out, or even lost a bit of velocity? I’m trying to find out if its just a matter of curiosity on your part, or perhaps you use the information to determine the pecking order of your pitchers.
This for us is a few headed monster. 1) We use it a possibility of skipping a kid in the rotation. For example let's say a kid velocity started to decreased over the course of a couple of starts he might be getting tired and we might skip his start. 2) We use this to compare with his numbers from the previous year so that we can see if he is gaining velocity. 3) We use this so I can give a college coach or scout and actual answer as opposed to "I believe his velocity is..." We do not typically use this as pecking order piece. [
Can you explain how you determine what the best speed off of which to throw an off speed pitch?
Change up in the range of 5-10 mph slower depending depending on the pitcher. Slider/curve ball in the range of 5-20 depending on the pitcher the pitch the break. What we are trying to do is isolate at what speed can he throw these pitches off his fastball to give the best deception and throw the pitch the Best.
Do you have a record of the game velocities? If you do, I’d love to have a copy in a format like a SS. I’ve heard that pitcher’s velocities drop, but I’ve never seen data for it. The only way I can accommodate that thought in my mind, is if a pitcher starts out throwing 100%, since there’s no place to go but down. From everything I can find out, that 100% mentality is the difference between a pitcher and a thrower, perfectly demonstrated by Verlander the last couple of seasons.
Yes we do have a spread sheet, yes we do write down every pitch and speed. It is not about throwing 100% because we do not teach our players to throw 100% / 100% of the time. Let me give you an example. We have a kid that caps at 92 and works 86-89. We know threw charting that this is his average range. I communicate through a hand signal with the guy behind home plate in between innings where he is working and we base everything off 87mph with him. If I get a thumbs up this means he is working in that range, fingers down (below the range) fingers up (above the range). If I get a thumbs up 3 innings in a row and then all of a sudden I get 4 down this means his average range is now at 83. This now is going to spark a conversation that involves, "Are you ok?" If I get 3 up this means he is working at near cap and I need to get him to calm down a little.
I seldom hear anyone with a depth of knowledge advocate any starting pitcher throw at 100%, so what I’m guessing is, when you see a pitcher’s velocity drop, you coach him to change his approach so that he takes a bit off early to leave some gas in the tank for later on.
Yes this is exactly correct.
Well, after hearing the BS parents come up with over the years from sitting in the stands for so many games(and of course being a parent myself
, I can certainly understand why some coaches would want another weapon to fight the ignorance/stupidity. But tell me honestly, how many times in a season do you get into the “Why isn’t my kid …” discussion? Also, do you make your player’s stats public during the season?
Ok here is the deal with this. This has something a little more to do with my own paranoia that anything else. I DO NOT ever want to be caught in a conversation with a parent and not be able to support what I have to say without evidence. I get into these conversation on average 2 times a year. In regards to stats I used to post them online and have stopped. We used to post stats on maxpreps and I found a lot of infighting and I found parents using the stats of other players to down talk them. I made the conscious decision last year not to use maxpreps. It was the most peaceful season I had in 4 years. I still post stats once a week in the dugout so the team can see them and I hand them out at the end of the season to all.
What difference does it make if a player has improved, leveled out, or even lost a bit of velocity? I’m trying to find out if its just a matter of curiosity on your part, or perhaps you use the information to determine the pecking order of your pitchers.
This for us is a few headed monster. 1) We use it a possibility of skipping a kid in the rotation. For example let's say a kid velocity started to decreased over the course of a couple of starts he might be getting tired and we might skip his start. 2) We use this to compare with his numbers from the previous year so that we can see if he is gaining velocity. 3) We use this so I can give a college coach or scout and actual answer as opposed to "I believe his velocity is..." We do not typically use this as pecking order piece. [
Can you explain how you determine what the best speed off of which to throw an off speed pitch?
Change up in the range of 5-10 mph slower depending depending on the pitcher. Slider/curve ball in the range of 5-20 depending on the pitcher the pitch the break. What we are trying to do is isolate at what speed can he throw these pitches off his fastball to give the best deception and throw the pitch the Best.
Do you have a record of the game velocities? If you do, I’d love to have a copy in a format like a SS. I’ve heard that pitcher’s velocities drop, but I’ve never seen data for it. The only way I can accommodate that thought in my mind, is if a pitcher starts out throwing 100%, since there’s no place to go but down. From everything I can find out, that 100% mentality is the difference between a pitcher and a thrower, perfectly demonstrated by Verlander the last couple of seasons.
Yes we do have a spread sheet, yes we do write down every pitch and speed. It is not about throwing 100% because we do not teach our players to throw 100% / 100% of the time. Let me give you an example. We have a kid that caps at 92 and works 86-89. We know threw charting that this is his average range. I communicate through a hand signal with the guy behind home plate in between innings where he is working and we base everything off 87mph with him. If I get a thumbs up this means he is working in that range, fingers down (below the range) fingers up (above the range). If I get a thumbs up 3 innings in a row and then all of a sudden I get 4 down this means his average range is now at 83. This now is going to spark a conversation that involves, "Are you ok?" If I get 3 up this means he is working at near cap and I need to get him to calm down a little.
I seldom hear anyone with a depth of knowledge advocate any starting pitcher throw at 100%, so what I’m guessing is, when you see a pitcher’s velocity drop, you coach him to change his approach so that he takes a bit off early to leave some gas in the tank for later on.
Yes this is exactly correct.
Well, after hearing the BS parents come up with over the years from sitting in the stands for so many games(and of course being a parent myself
, I can certainly understand why some coaches would want another weapon to fight the ignorance/stupidity. But tell me honestly, how many times in a season do you get into the “Why isn’t my kid …” discussion? Also, do you make your player’s stats public during the season? Ok here is the deal with this. This has something a little more to do with my own paranoia that anything else. I DO NOT ever want to be caught in a conversation with a parent and not be able to support what I have to say without evidence. I get into these conversation on average 2 times a year. In regards to stats I used to post them online and have stopped. We used to post stats on maxpreps and I found a lot of infighting and I found parents using the stats of other players to down talk them. I made the conscious decision last year not to use maxpreps. It was the most peaceful season I had in 4 years. I still post stats once a week in the dugout so the team can see them and I hand them out at the end of the season to all.
GBM,
Thanks for sharing your son's freshman video. Do you know what his average and max velocity was on his fastball?
Thanks for sharing your son's freshman video. Do you know what his average and max velocity was on his fastball?
quote:Hope you don't mind but I have use your videos as a reference and teaching tool
Thanks again, GBM--that's exactly what the videos are there for. For the most part they are decent slo-mo clips of players from amateur to MLB level, and I try to refrain from personal editorializing.
For any interested folks who may be unsure how to best search the 2000+ videos I've uploaded over the past 3 years, the best way is to type in the name of a player of interest in "Search Uploads" field on my YouTube channel. My MLB clips include most of the SF Giants, and many opposing players from their NL West division. Also, some Pirates, Braves, Marlins, Red Sox, Tigers, Cincy, Oakland A's and misc. others. Unfortunately, there is just no way I can get video of every MLB team, or every player on teams that play the Giants once or twice a year at AT&T. If you type in a player's name and nothing comes up...sorry, it means I don't have any video of that guy.
quote:Originally posted by IEBSBL:
This for us is a few headed monster. 1) We use it a possibility of skipping a kid in the rotation. For example let's say a kid velocity started to decreased over the course of a couple of starts he might be getting tired and we might skip his start. 2) We use this to compare with his numbers from the previous year so that we can see if he is gaining velocity. 3) We use this so I can give a college coach or scout and actual answer as opposed to "I believe his velocity is..." We do not typically use this as pecking order piece.
I guess the 1st thing I should have asked is, what state are you in? That can make a big difference in how the pitchers are used.
Please don’t take this as an attack. Why would you assume a kid’s velocity drop equated to a loss of effectiveness? Now if you looked at his numbers, and if by your standards he had lost effectiveness, and you somehow attributed it to a loss in velocity, I could understand it a lot better.
I still don’t quite get #2. Again, if you’re just curious about how his velocity compared to previous seasons, I can understand wanting to know, but I honestly don’t see how that has anything to do with production or effectiveness, so I don’t see what it is you’re trying to manage with the measurements.
Not being someone who scouts or college coaches call to talk about their players, I have to assume they do that a lot, or in your neck of the woods they don’t send out evaluators with guns to measure for themselves.
quote:Change up in the range of 5-10 mph slower depending depending on the pitcher. Slider/curve ball in the range of 5-20 depending on the pitcher the pitch the break. What we are trying to do is isolate at what speed can he throw these pitches off his fastball to give the best deception and throw the pitch the Best.
Hmmm. I can picture the general way I’d do that, but it would involve some pretty in depth and accurate charting, and some rally in depth performance statistics. If you’re doing that, you’re doing it at a far higher level than I’ve ever seen in HS. We have a local, very successful coach who charts and guns every pitch of every bullpen, but nothing remotely close to that in games, which of course is the only place where effectiveness can be judged.
I’m really interested in the mechanics of how you’re gathering and storing the data, and the algorithms you use to do the analysis. I’m always open to learn something new!
quote:Yes we do have a spread sheet, yes we do write down every pitch and speed. It is not about throwing 100% because we do not teach our players to throw 100% / 100% of the time. Let me give you an example. We have a kid that caps at 92 and works 86-89. We know threw charting that this is his average range. I communicate through a hand signal with the guy behind home plate in between innings where he is working and we base everything off 87mph with him. If I get a thumbs up this means he is working in that range, fingers down (below the range) fingers up (above the range). If I get a thumbs up 3 innings in a row and then all of a sudden I get 4 down this means his average range is now at 83. This now is going to spark a conversation that involves, "Are you ok?" If I get 3 up this means he is working at near cap and I need to get him to calm down a little.
Is it possible to get a copy of that SS? I can PM you my e-mail address. What you’re describing makes perfect sense, but again, its far more sophisticated than anything I’ve ever seen in HS. I’m impressed. Do you do that for all the pitchers, or just the starters or superstuds?
quote:Ok here is the deal with this. This has something a little more to do with my own paranoia that anything else. I DO NOT ever want to be caught in a conversation with a parent and not be able to support what I have to say without evidence. I get into these conversation on average 2 times a year. In regards to stats I used to post them online and have stopped. We used to post stats on maxpreps and I found a lot of infighting and I found parents using the stats of other players to down talk them. I made the conscious decision last year not to use maxpreps. It was the most peaceful season I had in 4 years. I still post stats once a week in the dugout so the team can see them and I hand them out at the end of the season to all.
Thank you sir for giving perhaps the most honest answer I’ve even seen on this topic. And what’s more, I can’t tell you how much I respect someone who at least makes an attempt to support what he says with facts, rather than the old “Because I say so” answer. In my experience, most parents respect that too because they appreciate not being blown completely off.
Twice a year is about what I’ve gotten from the HC’s I’ve discussed it with as well, and it sure seems like the more open the coaches are, the less it becomes a parental issue.
Let me tell you about my experience with MaxPreps. I had posted the stats to at that time the local newspaper, then to MaxPreps when they took it over before CBS bought them when my son was in HS. When I 1st started scoring for this coach, the school hadn’t played a V game yet, and the coach hadn’t posted public stats in 14 years at his old school. When I asked him if he wanted me to post the numbers on MP, he said absolutely not. I could post the roster, post the line scores, and at the end of the season post the numbers, but like you, he didn’t want even a hint of trouble because of some stupid numbers.
It was no skin off my nose, so that’s all MP got from me, and I posted everything on my personal web site, along with a newsletter after every game, the same what I’d done all the years my boy was a HS player. The next season, when I got the schedule and the proposed roster, I was told that the parents had come to him and requested that the number be posted to MP, and since the team was in essence theirs, they could have what they wanted, but he wouldn’t field any questions about stats in relation to playing time, and that was that.
So, I became the scorer, the statistician, and the guy parents would come too looking for a sympathetic ear. Unfortunately for most, they’d not only get a sympathetic ear, they’d get a very straightforward reality check because I’m not in the business of making anyone fee good or bad. So every year after that(2007), I’ve been doing the same thing. The parents new to the team soon find out that if they ask a question of me, they may not like the answer they get.
What’s been funny is, at least once a season the older parents somehow con a new parent into coming to me and asking something really silly, or complaining about the way their kid’s being under-used. I don’t disappoint the watching eyes and ears, and the whole thing is usually followed by a lot of laughing and I told ya so’s. Its all good though because everyone knows I don’t do anything maliciously, and the coach loves it because I’m like a buffer that makes people think a little bit, and that’s usually all it takes to keep them away from him.
But back to the primary reason you gave, I’ve never seen a program that didn’t post the stats publically be much better than one that didn’t. To me its all about communication anyway, and there’s a lot more to that than stats. But, to each his own.
Tell me, do you have an SK/statistician, or do you try to do everything yourself?
quote:Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
I guess the 1st thing I should have asked is, what state are you in? That can make a big difference in how the pitchers are used.
I coach in the Southern California and in Southern Section of CIF
Please don’t take this as an attack. Why would you assume a kid’s velocity drop equated to a loss of effectiveness? Now if you looked at his numbers, and if by your standards he had lost effectiveness, and you somehow attributed it to a loss in velocity, I could understand it a lot better.
I do not take this as an attack and it is a very valid question. We do not equate this with a loss of effectiveness. It is just something we keep an eye on. We are only concerned in a loss of velocity due to fatigue or possible injury. Case in point, last year I had a pitcher throw and we noted a drop in his average game velocity. Didn't talk about it and then it happened again. At that point I ask the kid how his arm felt and he said he felt tired. This is our only concern.
I still don’t quite get #2. Again, if you’re just curious about how his velocity compared to previous seasons, I can understand wanting to know, but I honestly don’t see how that has anything to do with production or effectiveness, so I don’t see what it is you’re trying to manage with the measurements.
The only reason this peaks my interest is because the old adage states a pitcher should gain on avg. 2 mph a year during HS. This really is the only reason I do it.
Not being someone who scouts or college coaches call to talk about their players, I have to assume they do that a lot, or in your neck of the woods they don’t send out evaluators with guns to measure for themselves.
In our area guns are EVERYWHERE and this is why I do it so I never give out false information.
Is it possible to get a copy of that SS? I can PM you my e-mail address. What you’re describing makes perfect sense, but again, its far more sophisticated than anything I’ve ever seen in HS. I’m impressed. Do you do that for all the pitchers, or just the starters or superstuds?
Feel free to PM me and I will send you the chart it is very simple on how we chart things. We do this with all pitchers at the Varsity Level. We always have a couple of kids that do not pitch on a regular basis and we make sure we chart during the Bullpen in case they do not get into a game that week.
But back to the primary reason you gave, I’ve never seen a program that didn’t post the stats publically be much better than one that didn’t. To me its all about communication anyway, and there’s a lot more to that than stats. But, to each his own.
I agree with you. We did not perform any better or any worse because we did not use Maxpreps. What happened was there was not as much self bragging by players and/or parents about how great their kids were because they did not have stats at the click of a mouse.
Tell me, do you have an SK/statistician, or do you try to do everything yourself?
We split up various charts amongst the coaches but I finalize everything...that is unless you are offering to relocate and do it for me.
Let me know if you have any questions and please feel free to PM me your email and I will send you that chart.
quote:Originally posted by AGDAD19:
GBM,
Thanks for sharing your son's freshman video. Do you know what his average and max velocity was on his fastball?
I actually stood right in back of the gun on several occasions. From actual gun readings, his average fastball velocity was right at 80 all year long. His max velocity was 83 and his lowest in game fastball velocity was 75. The video I posted he was consistantly 80-82 throughout that game.
GBM,
Thank you. That's impressive!
Hope he has a great Sophmore year.
Thank you. That's impressive!
Hope he has a great Sophmore year.
quote:I coach in the Southern California and in Southern Section of CIF
I’m up here in the Sac Joaquin section.
quote:I do not take this as an attack and it is a very valid question. We do not equate this with a loss of effectiveness. It is just something we keep an eye on. We are only concerned in a loss of velocity due to fatigue or possible injury. Case in point, last year I had a pitcher throw and we noted a drop in his average game velocity. Didn't talk about it and then it happened again. At that point I ask the kid how his arm felt and he said he felt tired. This is our only concern.
The reason I prefaced it by trying to make you wouldn’t feel as though I was somehow trying to make you look like a fool or just spoiling for a fight, is there are some here who feel that anytime they’re challenged in any way, its an act of total disrespect.
I can live with your explanation because it makes sense. But to tell the truth, I’ve never seen a “pitcher” lose velocity over say 105 pitches divided over 7 innings. When a coach has that happen, I say its his fault for allowing the pitchers to throw at max intensity, which just isn’t necessary for a starter. Of course everything varies by the player and situation,, but in general there shouldn’t be a velocity drop. Control issues yes, but velocity no. Of course that’s only MHO.
quote:The only reason this peaks my interest is because the old adage states a pitcher should gain on avg. 2 mph a year during HS. This really is the only reason I do it.
Dang! You’re scary honest! LOL!
Do you have a plan in place for kids that don’t meet the 2 MPH gain? Have you found that 2 MPH per year is a good rule of thumb, and if so, what percentage of the players would you say it applies to.
quote:In our area guns are EVERYWHERE and this is why I do it so I never give out false information.
Really? I asked our VHC and another long time VHC here, and they tell me its very seldom that anyone calls them for much other than a short synopsis, and almost never on a gun reading.
quote:Feel free to PM me and I will send you the chart it is very simple on how we chart things. We do this with all pitchers at the Varsity Level. We always have a couple of kids that do not pitch on a regular basis and we make sure we chart during the Bullpen in case they do not get into a game that week.
Will do! Thanx
quote:I agree with you. We did not perform any better or any worse because we did not use Maxpreps. What happened was there was not as much self bragging by players and/or parents about how great their kids were because they did not have stats at the click of a mouse.
You better watch out with all the honesty! There are people who swear that stats are the doom of baseball as we know it!
To tell the truth, I’ve never been associated with a team that didn’t have the stats posted on a game by game basis, so I really haven’t got anything to compare our guys to. But having had lots of kids and lots of parent come through programs I’ve scored for, I haven’t see much of that at all. Maybe its because the guy scoring has absolutely no agenda other than to provide the best numbers possible. At least I hope that’s part of it.
quote:We split up various charts amongst the coaches but I finalize everything...that is unless you are offering to relocate and do it for me.
No. I’m afraid my moving days are over. Besides, you might not be able to afford my services. 2 fully decked out hot dogs and an ice cold Coke every home game, or I’m outta there!
Someday I’ll have to tell you my plan for taking care of that problem, but right now I have only 10 minutes to get prepped for game 5!
Later!
The reason I prefaced it by trying to make you wouldn’t feel as though I was somehow trying to make you look like a fool or just spoiling for a fight, is there are some here who feel that anytime they’re challenged in any way, its an act of total disrespect.
I can live with your explanation because it makes sense. But to tell the truth, I’ve never seen a “pitcher” lose velocity over say 105 pitches divided over 7 innings. When a coach has that happen, I say its his fault for allowing the pitchers to throw at max intensity, which just isn’t necessary for a starter. Of course everything varies by the player and situation,, but in general there shouldn’t be a velocity drop. Control issues yes, but velocity no. Of course that’s only MHO.
I agree with you completely. Our senior who is a D1 commit did everything 100% max as a sophomore, and I mean everything. He would also pace in the dugout non stop. At that age he would lose a little velocity but not enough to pull them. We typically only pull them during the game to save pitch count or if they lose effectiveness.
Dang! You’re scary honest! LOL!
Do you have a plan in place for kids that don’t meet the 2 MPH gain? Have you found that 2 MPH per year is a good rule of thumb, and if so, what percentage of the players would you say it applies to.
Honesty is the only way I know how to deal with things. In regards to those kids that don't gain the two MPH we typically will put them on some light weight Jobes in addition with the Band workout and take a closer look at their Mechanics. I believe that the 2 MPH a year is a good rule of thumb and I in regards to the kids that are currently in our program that are were seniors last year and this year all but one gained 2 MPH every year.
Really? I asked our VHC and another long time VHC here, and they tell me its very seldom that anyone calls them for much other than a short synopsis, and almost never on a gun reading.
Within our program last year both starting pitchers hit 90. One was a junior and the other a senior, due to scouting for Pro and College we saw at least one gun a week. We had a Fall Ball game in January last year and their were 2 scouts both with guns behind the backstop. Now there are a lot of areas that don't see guns however we have seen a ton.
You better watch out with all the honesty! There are people who swear that stats are the doom of baseball as we know it!
Don't get me wrong I post our team stats after every game in the dugout. Howver they are stats that WE focus on, not the world. I actually had a conversation with Maxpreps and specifically told them, "I do not believe you guys are the devil. However, for our program we are no longer using Maxpreps."
No. I’m afraid my moving days are over. Besides, you might not be able to afford my services. 2 fully decked out hot dogs and an ice cold Coke every home game, or I’m outta there! I can give you 3 hot dogs and one of the hats you can hold 2 sodas in.
I got your email. You will get our sheet no later than Wednesday.
I can live with your explanation because it makes sense. But to tell the truth, I’ve never seen a “pitcher” lose velocity over say 105 pitches divided over 7 innings. When a coach has that happen, I say its his fault for allowing the pitchers to throw at max intensity, which just isn’t necessary for a starter. Of course everything varies by the player and situation,, but in general there shouldn’t be a velocity drop. Control issues yes, but velocity no. Of course that’s only MHO.
I agree with you completely. Our senior who is a D1 commit did everything 100% max as a sophomore, and I mean everything. He would also pace in the dugout non stop. At that age he would lose a little velocity but not enough to pull them. We typically only pull them during the game to save pitch count or if they lose effectiveness.
Dang! You’re scary honest! LOL!
Do you have a plan in place for kids that don’t meet the 2 MPH gain? Have you found that 2 MPH per year is a good rule of thumb, and if so, what percentage of the players would you say it applies to.
Honesty is the only way I know how to deal with things. In regards to those kids that don't gain the two MPH we typically will put them on some light weight Jobes in addition with the Band workout and take a closer look at their Mechanics. I believe that the 2 MPH a year is a good rule of thumb and I in regards to the kids that are currently in our program that are were seniors last year and this year all but one gained 2 MPH every year.
Really? I asked our VHC and another long time VHC here, and they tell me its very seldom that anyone calls them for much other than a short synopsis, and almost never on a gun reading.
Within our program last year both starting pitchers hit 90. One was a junior and the other a senior, due to scouting for Pro and College we saw at least one gun a week. We had a Fall Ball game in January last year and their were 2 scouts both with guns behind the backstop. Now there are a lot of areas that don't see guns however we have seen a ton.
You better watch out with all the honesty! There are people who swear that stats are the doom of baseball as we know it!
Don't get me wrong I post our team stats after every game in the dugout. Howver they are stats that WE focus on, not the world. I actually had a conversation with Maxpreps and specifically told them, "I do not believe you guys are the devil. However, for our program we are no longer using Maxpreps."
No. I’m afraid my moving days are over. Besides, you might not be able to afford my services. 2 fully decked out hot dogs and an ice cold Coke every home game, or I’m outta there! I can give you 3 hot dogs and one of the hats you can hold 2 sodas in.
I got your email. You will get our sheet no later than Wednesday.
quote:Originally posted by IEBSBL:
Within our program last year both starting pitchers hit 90. One was a junior and the other a senior, due to scouting for Pro and College we saw at least one gun a week. We had a Fall Ball game in January last year and their were 2 scouts both with guns behind the backstop. Now there are a lot of areas that don't see guns however we have seen a ton.
We see them all the time as well, which is why I was a bit surprised to hear that anyone calls you and asks for gun readings. Heck, we were getting some at intersquads, 2-3 at preseason games, and I counted 15 at one of our regular season games. I wouldn’t even want to guess how many were at the DI playoff game where our studly stud was throwing and the other team’s studly stud was scheduled to make an appearance as well. It gets to be a joke to me because after 2 years I can’t believe every scout and college coach in the state doesn’t know everything about all these 90+ pitchers, from their favorite food to which side they dress on.
quote:Don't get me wrong I post our team stats after every game in the dugout. Howver they are stats that WE focus on, not the world. I actually had a conversation with Maxpreps and specifically told them, "I do not believe you guys are the devil. However, for our program we are no longer using Maxpreps."
I’ve known those guys pretty well because I’ve used the service since the company 1st formed. Plus they’re right up the highway from me, about 20 miles, so I’ve met a few of them, and many know my voice when they hear it on the phone.
Personally, I think the product is a great one, but for very different reasons than most. You wouldn’t believe how many times I call them in a week to talk about one thing or another, and I like to think I’ve had a bit of positive impact on what they do. Now that doesn’t mean I think everything they do is great, but I do understand that their goal as a service provider is much different than mine as a consumer.
FI, it bugs the snot out of me that so many coaches pick and choose not only what data they submit, but which games they submit it for. The reason it bugs me is, a lot of hoo haa has been made the last couple years about MP rankings, but the formulas to determine those rankings is based on what’s tuned in. So if only the good numbers are turned in for the players, of course they show up higher in the rankings, and the same thing happens for the teams.
What they started doing last year, was at least post all the scores of all the games for the leagues around here. At least that way the rankings had at least some legitimacy. But, I have to admit, from my standpoint, things are getting better all the time. Its getting a lot easier for coaches to gather data and get it submitted, and a lot more people are doing that.
For a team like yours, I don’t know what stats you feel are important, but if they are any of the stats MP makes allowances for, the only thing you need to do is have a schedule and a roster. Once that’s there, even if you only wanted to see strikeouts for pitchers, that’s all you’d have to enter. Now me, I’m a little nuts. We’re one of the very few teams in the entire county who use MP that enters every possible data point available, but with the new electronic scorers becoming so popular, I think that’s gonna change a lot this upcoming season.
quote:I can give you 3 hot dogs and one of the hats you can hold 2 sodas in.
That’s a great offer. I’ll keep it in mind.
I can’t help telling a quick story about my team hat. I’m sure that most teams are like our, where every season we get new hats, including all the coaches. Every year our coach hands me a spiffy new cap, and every year I tell him thanx, but my old one is just fine, and hand it back. Our 1st season, we got actual sized caps with the body of the cap being real material with the tiny holes in it that allowed the air to come through. I dutifully have the wife run it through the dishwasher just prior to the beginning of the new season, and wear it proudly, while everyone else is sporting their new model. Been doing that for 6 years now.
IEBSBL,
Pitchers can vary a lot from outing to outing. Scouts need to see multiple outings to get more than just a read on the basic talent. It can also be useful to see how they change over a season.
One of the local kids was quite well thought of. The one game he threw against our school the scouts told me he touched low 90s in the first inning but that he dropped off quickly and was topping out at 86 or 87 the rest of the way.
The next week the kid threw against the best team in CIF SS that season and dominated them. I heard he was over 90 most of the time that game and he was a pitchability guy.
Different scouts learned different things depending on which outing they saw. He went in the second round so that team probably focused on the better outing. Several years later he's yet to pitch in pro ball because of shoulder problems. Was that showing up the week before?
Pitchers can vary a lot from outing to outing. Scouts need to see multiple outings to get more than just a read on the basic talent. It can also be useful to see how they change over a season.
One of the local kids was quite well thought of. The one game he threw against our school the scouts told me he touched low 90s in the first inning but that he dropped off quickly and was topping out at 86 or 87 the rest of the way.
The next week the kid threw against the best team in CIF SS that season and dominated them. I heard he was over 90 most of the time that game and he was a pitchability guy.
Different scouts learned different things depending on which outing they saw. He went in the second round so that team probably focused on the better outing. Several years later he's yet to pitch in pro ball because of shoulder problems. Was that showing up the week before?
LowFinish,
Maddux was a hard thrower out of HS. He'd be drafted early coming out of HS today with what he had coming out of HS back then. Scouts look at velocity but if they see velocity and pitchability together they are all for it. Kid came out of our HS league who topped out at about 92 or 93 but worked more like 89-90 with a max effort delivery. He is a relatively small RHP but he's got a ton of pitchability. 2nd round.
Maddux was a hard thrower out of HS. He'd be drafted early coming out of HS today with what he had coming out of HS back then. Scouts look at velocity but if they see velocity and pitchability together they are all for it. Kid came out of our HS league who topped out at about 92 or 93 but worked more like 89-90 with a max effort delivery. He is a relatively small RHP but he's got a ton of pitchability. 2nd round.
quote:We see them all the time as well, which is why I was a bit surprised to hear that anyone calls you and asks for gun readings.
Let me clarify this statement. I have never had anyone call and say, "What does so and so throw?" However, typically when I get a call from a coach about one of my players that is a pitcher and he has not seen him throw yet they ask about their velocity. Case in point...I happened to run into an assistant coach at a D1 school in the area and he had just been hired this year. His question was, "Do you have any guys?" I started talking about kids that were juniors or sophomores, my senior is already taken, his first question was, "Where do they top out at?"
When I am asked that question I want to make sure I have a factual answer.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
LowFinish,
Maddux was a hard thrower out of HS. He'd be drafted early coming out of HS today with what he had coming out of HS back then. Scouts look at velocity but if they see velocity and pitchability together they are all for it. Kid came out of our HS league who topped out at about 92 or 93 but worked more like 89-90 with a max effort delivery. He is a relatively small RHP but he's got a ton of pitchability. 2nd round.
Cliff Lee is another pitcher who rarely exceeds 92 mph but has great command.
I've taught my son since he was 9 to throw as hard as you can control. He could throw 5 mph harder but with what type of command? As he gets older his speed improves but his accuracy doesn't fall off.
quote:Originally posted by IEBSBL:
Let me clarify this statement. I have never had anyone call and say, "What does so and so throw?" However, typically when I get a call from a coach about one of my players that is a pitcher and he has not seen him throw yet they ask about their velocity. Case in point...I happened to run into an assistant coach at a D1 school in the area and he had just been hired this year. His question was, "Do you have any guys?" I started talking about kids that were juniors or sophomores, my senior is already taken, his first question was, "Where do they top out at?"
When I am asked that question I want to make sure I have a factual answer.
OK. That makes much more sense. Its just that that’s not the way it came across to me the 1st time.
Great Question!
This is difficult to point out because during this time of development for a teenager their speed can bump up significantly in just one year.
Let's say a pitcher has been working on mechanics and they gain 5 mph in a couple months due to a great change in mechanics.
The next year they come back and their throwing 8 mph faster and are using the same mechanics they have before, the difference is they are growing into what they already know. They have matured and can better handle the workload that pitching requires of them.
This is difficult to point out because during this time of development for a teenager their speed can bump up significantly in just one year.
Let's say a pitcher has been working on mechanics and they gain 5 mph in a couple months due to a great change in mechanics.
The next year they come back and their throwing 8 mph faster and are using the same mechanics they have before, the difference is they are growing into what they already know. They have matured and can better handle the workload that pitching requires of them.
I am just a Dad but wanted to throw this out there too.
My son is extremely literal and needs to know what the measurable goals are in terms of playing D1 baseball.
The radar gun and stop watch are great tools to assist him in setting goals.
This is not an end all be all but is something he can relate to.
My son is extremely literal and needs to know what the measurable goals are in terms of playing D1 baseball.
The radar gun and stop watch are great tools to assist him in setting goals.
This is not an end all be all but is something he can relate to.
LHP or RHP?
60 time 6.8-9 for OF, lower if he is not a masher.
If he can hit (for power) they will find a spot for him.
RHP. 88 for mid major D1's. 90+ for top 50 programs.
LHP. 85 for mid major D1's. 88 for top 50.
For LHP you and if you have a funky delivery you can be picked up for a situational reliever.
Speed never slumps.
60 time 6.8-9 for OF, lower if he is not a masher.
If he can hit (for power) they will find a spot for him.
RHP. 88 for mid major D1's. 90+ for top 50 programs.
LHP. 85 for mid major D1's. 88 for top 50.
For LHP you and if you have a funky delivery you can be picked up for a situational reliever.
Speed never slumps.
Thanks!
We knew the numbers and he is just a sophomore this year. He is a RH pitcher but mostly a SS. He is on the small side at 5'8 but still has time.
He is definitely moving in the right direction and working hard with a plan.
We set benchmarks in the fall with a Stalker Gun and then his 60 time with a stop watch. Someone other than Dad did the stalker and the stopwatch
We knew the numbers and he is just a sophomore this year. He is a RH pitcher but mostly a SS. He is on the small side at 5'8 but still has time.
He is definitely moving in the right direction and working hard with a plan.
We set benchmarks in the fall with a Stalker Gun and then his 60 time with a stop watch. Someone other than Dad did the stalker and the stopwatch
BOF,
Are you saying that those are drop dead numbers that all D1 players have, or are you saying those numbers are realistic goals for someone hoping to qualify for a DI team by skills?
I’m only asking because I’ve sure seen a load of DI pitchers who couldn’t throw with those velocities.
Are you saying that those are drop dead numbers that all D1 players have, or are you saying those numbers are realistic goals for someone hoping to qualify for a DI team by skills?
I’m only asking because I’ve sure seen a load of DI pitchers who couldn’t throw with those velocities.
I hear those numbers too but the only chance I had to ask a D1 pitching coach, while in his teams locker room, he went around the room and described all of his staff and out of 12 or 14 or so pitchers he only described a couple as being 90 or 90+ guys.
Most were in the 86-88 range.
Most were in the 86-88 range.
I am saying that you need to be touching those velocities to get serious interest from multiple schools during the recruiting process. Sure there are guys throwing less than this, here and there, but if you expect to get much interest you should be touching those numbers. But IMO if you expect to walk onto the field at a D1 program with the objective of being one of the starting pitchers you better be in this range.
Also remember working velocity is typically 2 MPH less. So I would say that as a freshmen you should be working 86-87, touching 88,89.
Lefty's are different, also drop down guys with funky delivery are different.
Also remember working velocity is typically 2 MPH less. So I would say that as a freshmen you should be working 86-87, touching 88,89.
Lefty's are different, also drop down guys with funky delivery are different.
quote:Also remember working velocity is typically 2 MPH less. So I would say that as a freshmen you should be working 86-87, touching 88,89.
What about D2/D3 then. Are average velocities less?
What is the difference between the 'typical' pitcher at D1 vs D2 vs D3. Is it just velocity?
I don't really know Hawk. I think it is more about pitching depth on D1 vs D2/3. I know my son’s D3 team will have 3 maybe 4 touching 90 this year, one sits at 92-93 touches 95. My son’s friend on a top 25 D1 team says all of the starters are in the 90’s.
Again this is just a guess but I think there is a larger variation of D2/3 programs where the top 25 D3 teams look more like a mid major D1 as far as staff make up, but there are lots more lower level programs where you may have guys throwing low to mid 80’s.
The make up of a Ivy/Patriot league team will look nothing like an SEC or Pac12 team.
There is also a heck of a lot more going on than just velocity; velocity just gets you in the door. In the higher-level programs it is all about having command of 3 pitches that you can throw effectively in any count. My freshmen son is learning, big time, that you must learn how to keep you arm slot and arm speed consistent with all of your pitches otherwise college hitters are going to pick it up and make you pay.
Again this is just a guess but I think there is a larger variation of D2/3 programs where the top 25 D3 teams look more like a mid major D1 as far as staff make up, but there are lots more lower level programs where you may have guys throwing low to mid 80’s.
The make up of a Ivy/Patriot league team will look nothing like an SEC or Pac12 team.
There is also a heck of a lot more going on than just velocity; velocity just gets you in the door. In the higher-level programs it is all about having command of 3 pitches that you can throw effectively in any count. My freshmen son is learning, big time, that you must learn how to keep you arm slot and arm speed consistent with all of your pitches otherwise college hitters are going to pick it up and make you pay.
quote:Originally posted by BOF:
My freshmen son is learning, big time, that you must learn how to keep you arm slot and arm speed consistent with all of your pitches otherwise college hitters are going to pick it up and make you pay.
I think this is #1 reality check that pitchers face going from HS to college. Those that are fortunate enough to work with pitching coaches who know what they are actually doing usually get it right.
Boy is that truth TPM! I got to spend a more than two minutes talking with my son over Thanksgiving and he said the number one objective for him between now and season start is to get his CU arm action indistinguishable to his FB. What worked in HS is does not in college….. His coach said he might as well as well have a light bulb on his head that goes off every time he threw it. His other friend stopped by and he said he has one less pitch since his “nasty split finger” in HS that got everyone out is way to easy to pick up by college hitters. They see the spin difference and just let it go.
quote:Originally posted by BOF:
Boy is that truth TPM! I got to spend a more than two minutes talking with my son over Thanksgiving and he said the number one objective for him between now and season start is to get his CU arm action indistinguishable to his FB. What worked in HS is does not in college….. His coach said he might as well as well have a light bulb on his head that goes off every time he threw it. His other friend stopped by and he said he has one less pitch since his “nasty split finger” in HS that got everyone out is way to easy to pick up by college hitters. They see the spin difference and just let it go.
Yup, I do remember having many discussions here about how important it is to throw all pitches from same slot.
DK couldn't use his CU at first in college, a definite giveaway! Now imagine if hitters can pick that up in college what they can pick up on the pro level!
BTW, one never stops learning my pitcher picked up a cut FB this fall, really goes well with his sinker and really likes it.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by BOF:
Boy is that truth TPM! I got to spend a more than two minutes talking with my son over Thanksgiving and he said the number one objective for him between now and season start is to get his CU arm action indistinguishable to his FB. What worked in HS is does not in college….. His coach said he might as well as well have a light bulb on his head that goes off every time he threw it. His other friend stopped by and he said he has one less pitch since his “nasty split finger” in HS that got everyone out is way to easy to pick up by college hitters. They see the spin difference and just let it go.
Yup, I do remember having many discussions here about how important it is to throw all pitches from same slot.
Being able to throw all your pitches from more than one slot is a really big advantage. But for a beginner, be able to throw every pitch from the same slot. As a hitter, I love pitchers who tip their pitches through arm slot.
I tend to follow about a dozen colleges around where we live and note the velocities of what kids are throwing. For instance around here we have a few Junior Colleges and basically the bare minimum to make it on those teams seems to be right around 80 mph. I know of three kids personally who made their JC roster and only throw around 80-83 mph. But, on those same teams there are kids who throw upper 80's and one or two in the low 90's.
I don't know what it is like in other areas of the country but around here the Div 2-3 colleges are about the same as the JC's. The Div 1 colleges around here pretty much have it as a bare minimum to be throwing around 84-85 mph with most of the roster around the 86-90 mph mark. We have some pretty good JC's around here and a lot of kids opt to go the small college route knowing they feed into the bigger D-1 schools and so they get a little more playing time the first two years.
I don't know what it is like in other areas of the country but around here the Div 2-3 colleges are about the same as the JC's. The Div 1 colleges around here pretty much have it as a bare minimum to be throwing around 84-85 mph with most of the roster around the 86-90 mph mark. We have some pretty good JC's around here and a lot of kids opt to go the small college route knowing they feed into the bigger D-1 schools and so they get a little more playing time the first two years.
quote:Originally posted by Skylark:
I tend to follow about a dozen colleges around where we live and note the velocities of what kids are throwing. For instance around here we have a few Junior Colleges and basically the bare minimum to make it on those teams seems to be right around 80 mph. I know of three kids personally who made their JC roster and only throw around 80-83 mph. But, on those same teams there are kids who throw upper 80's and one or two in the low 90's.
I don't know what it is like in other areas of the country but around here the Div 2-3 colleges are about the same as the JC's. The Div 1 colleges around here pretty much have it as a bare minimum to be throwing around 84-85 mph with most of the roster around the 86-90 mph mark. We have some pretty good JC's around here and a lot of kids opt to go the small college route knowing they feed into the bigger D-1 schools and so they get a little more playing time the first two years.
I’d say that’s pretty much the reality all over the country, of course with the understanding that some programs will do better than others as far as getting pitchers with velocity than others. And it’s a shame people don’t talk inn those terms rather than in unrealistic terms, like in order to make it as a pitcher on a DI team you have to at least touch 90. It would be different if that was true, but it isn’t even close.
Now if someone said that in order to get a 50% or better ‘ship to a top DI as a pitcher, you have to at least touch 90, that would be much more truthful. I sure wish I understood why its so important for people to “embellish” the truth in sports so often. I don’t know if its an unconscious effort to make themselves of their kids look more exclusive, but that’s what it seems like.
BOF's numbers are spot on. Take the time to read what he's written. He qualifies it with statements like "to be a starter...".
The only thing I disagree with is his differential. Most starters differentials are closer to 3 or 4 mph less than the velocity they can touch while most short relievers differentials are close to 1 to 2 mph less than what they can touch.
In other words, if one can just touch 90 then as a starter one probably works 86-87 which is pretty typical to marginal for a D1 mid major RHP starter with typical stuff and command. If a RHP is touching less than 90 he probably isn't going to be a D1 starter unless he's got something extra in the command or movement area.
As far as pro ball I've been told by a mlb scout that almost regardless of the projection as far as pitchability if a RHP doesn't at least touch 90 they aren't going to get a look.
The only thing I disagree with is his differential. Most starters differentials are closer to 3 or 4 mph less than the velocity they can touch while most short relievers differentials are close to 1 to 2 mph less than what they can touch.
In other words, if one can just touch 90 then as a starter one probably works 86-87 which is pretty typical to marginal for a D1 mid major RHP starter with typical stuff and command. If a RHP is touching less than 90 he probably isn't going to be a D1 starter unless he's got something extra in the command or movement area.
As far as pro ball I've been told by a mlb scout that almost regardless of the projection as far as pitchability if a RHP doesn't at least touch 90 they aren't going to get a look.
It is interesting to here from different parts of the country as well. My 6'3 220 Soph hits 86 (stalker gun,regularly) cruises 84-85, throws strikes with 3 pitches and looks like he will be on JV again this season. Maybe we shouldn't have moved to Texas.
Great thread guys. i think coaches at all levels are looking for REPEATABILTY,Ability to throw strikes anytime with three pitches, and speed.Not neccessarily weighted or in that order.At the Iowa camp this year coach told us if he is looking for different arm slots and recruited three funky lefty's this year.He also mentioned that if he gets kids too fast they tend to go pro before finishing college and that must be frustrating i would imagine as a coach but rewarding as well..My son tops at 84 and has 1 small d1 school looking at him.I would say 84 would be about minimum for a righty at a small d1.A top d1 would be probably 87 plus,with the other attributes i mentioned.He also mentioned how many kids try to walk on with 7.5 speed and when he lets them go he still gets calls from the parents.it's a speed game now with the new bats.
they recruit using several checkpoints
bat exit speed
upper load lower load
spin,lunge,balance
over grip normal group
things like where he catches the ball
initial foot speed
I was surprised looking at all the different checkpoints he had on the evaluation sheet.
they recruit using several checkpoints
bat exit speed
upper load lower load
spin,lunge,balance
over grip normal group
things like where he catches the ball
initial foot speed
I was surprised looking at all the different checkpoints he had on the evaluation sheet.
I agree, coaches are looking for pitchers with repeatable delivery, and that usually means from the same slot.
Did all the above comments from the same coach?
Did all the above comments from the same coach?
If you are replying to my post yes..
Here's some of the evaluations as i just found the sheet.
60 yd dash
Home to 1st
Home to second
40 yd dash
Hitting
set up:level/downhill/uphill
grip
elbows; Example *back up*
feet: Example squared or open etc.
Load:hands/lower half/Both/no
Stride:None/short/Dives /open /lunge
Swing
ull/middle/oppo
bat speed:excellent/quick/Avg/slow
Finish hands:two hands/one hand
Finish lower half:dead back side/Spin/Bacl L
Exit velocity : sons was 72 74 73 75 with wood.
comments:his was work on forearm strength
Infielder
Ready position:Tall/athletic/too low/
first step:quick/none/slow /average
Approach:Throwing side/Middle/Glove
Feet:Open/squared/closed
Glove:Funnel/Working Through/stopped
Transfer:Quick/Playable/slow/weak/
Arm action:long /short/easy /loose /stiff/
Agility:Exc/Good/fair/weak/
Overall quickness:exc/good/fair/
Arm strength : sons were 79 80 81 81??
Catcher categories are hands,footwork/transfer/arm action/Glove side/release times/accuracy arm strentgth.
Pitcher categories
Mechanical Grade excellent average poor
strengths: comments like clean arm repeatable delivery etc
Areas that need improvemnet: comments like Keep frontside compact stay tall.etc
fastball velo
breaking ball velocity
change up/
I didnt include outfielders but this gives you an idea on what these coaches are measuring
Here's some of the evaluations as i just found the sheet.
60 yd dash
Home to 1st
Home to second
40 yd dash
Hitting
set up:level/downhill/uphill
grip
elbows; Example *back up*
feet: Example squared or open etc.
Load:hands/lower half/Both/no
Stride:None/short/Dives /open /lunge
Swing
ull/middle/oppobat speed:excellent/quick/Avg/slow
Finish hands:two hands/one hand
Finish lower half:dead back side/Spin/Bacl L
Exit velocity : sons was 72 74 73 75 with wood.
comments:his was work on forearm strength
Infielder
Ready position:Tall/athletic/too low/
first step:quick/none/slow /average
Approach:Throwing side/Middle/Glove
Feet:Open/squared/closed
Glove:Funnel/Working Through/stopped
Transfer:Quick/Playable/slow/weak/
Arm action:long /short/easy /loose /stiff/
Agility:Exc/Good/fair/weak/
Overall quickness:exc/good/fair/
Arm strength : sons were 79 80 81 81??
Catcher categories are hands,footwork/transfer/arm action/Glove side/release times/accuracy arm strentgth.
Pitcher categories
Mechanical Grade excellent average poor
strengths: comments like clean arm repeatable delivery etc
Areas that need improvemnet: comments like Keep frontside compact stay tall.etc
fastball velo
breaking ball velocity
change up/
I didnt include outfielders but this gives you an idea on what these coaches are measuring
That list is interesting. I (and probably others) wouldn't mind seeing OF if you have it.
